Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Blargg888]

I cry.
hard.

What if, starting November 15, Sakurai announces that he will cut a character each day until release?

22 characters?

Let's just turn Super Smash Bros. into Danganronpa, and have one character kill off another character on each of those days, and then Sakurai kills the character that did it once everybody finds out.

We'd go from losing 22 characters to losing 45, then we'd have less than half the cast left.

 

[Will]

Fine. Tails has absolutely no chance of getting in.

That's not what we're saying. He definitely has a chance, but just about as much of a chance of 95% of the other requested characters. Which is miniscule.

Every character has a chance to get in, even if it's slim...

EVERY character

You heard it here first.
Goku's in.

 

[ChocolatGelgato]

Tails seems like a DLC pick to me, ballot or not he's definitely famous enough and has the moveset potential, but I imagine the base game will have more 3rd parties that have more clout either to the smash community as a "special guest" (Geno/Banjo) or as a general big series (Dante, Heihachi etc.) Before Tails is considered

 

[Noipoi]

22 characters?

Let's just turn Super Smash Bros. into Danganronpa, and have one character kill off another character on each of those days, and then Sakurai kills the character that did it once everybody finds out.

We'd go from losing 22 characters to losing 45, then we'd have less than half the cast left.

Would the Punishments be Final Smashes?
Now I want to hear Xander Mobus in the Master Hand voice say "LET'S GIVE IT EVERYTHING WE'VE GOT! IIITS PUNISHMENT TIME!"

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Remaining Newcomers?

Original Fighters
- Paper Mario
- Skull Kid
- Gardevoir
- Elma

Echo Fighters
- Dixie Kong
- Hilda
- Gothitelle
- Ninten

DLC Fighters
- Zeraora
- Geno
- Byleth
- Rex
- Spring Man
- Lloyd
- Heihachi
- Banjo & Kazooie
- Mach Rider
- Ribbon Girl
- Shadow
- Ken

DLC Stages
- Forest Maze
- Pokemon Sun & Moon Stage
- Fire Emblem: Three Houses Stage
- Xenoblade 2 Stage
- Stadiums
- Battle Harbor ("Ken's Stage")

Clarifications
- Who knows how long DLC may go for, but it makes a lot of sense that they have planned it in advance this time, considering this game won't see a sequel for a LONG time, I figure it may last just a little while. So I think they'll try to bump the number of fighters up to 80 over the next few years.
- I believe, given how requested Dixie Kong is, they will try to make her work by borrowing animations from other fighters besides just Diddy (Donkey Kong's Up Special, Greninja's Up Tilt, Mega Man's Dash Attack, all by using her hair of course).
- I think it's possible that we may get even more echo fighters in the base game, but I figured that'd be rather controversial. I wouldn't be surprised to see Impa, Ken, and Shadow in the base game.
- I think Ganondorf's Ocarina design and the Moon being an AT are hints at Skull Kid, and that's why I chose him over Waddle Dee. I believe Skull Kid's Final Smash will be an actual cinematic reenactment of the Moon demolishing Clock Town and fire engulfing the fighters like it would Link in the game.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

That's not what I mean. I mean even if she was the exact size as Palutena, her hair would make her taller, and you don't want a big wad of snake hair with no hitbox. They could just add hitboxes no problem but some people think echoes must be exact proportion/size wise and they aren't allowed to alter anything regarding that. I don't agree with said reasoning but it's one of the reasons I've heard why Isabelle wouldn't work because you'd have to adjust her proportions a bit.

It doesn't need to have hurtboxes, it's already standard design for certain extremities to not get hurtboxes; for example the outer third of Mewtwo's tail doesn't have a hurtbox, and the outer half of Charizard's tail doesn't have a hurtbox while his entire wings also don't have hurtboxes.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

But what other IPs does Sega have? They're pretty much all Sonic at this point.

No, seriously dude. There's plenty of series that are currently alive for SEGA. Might want to do some research before making a post that's gonna get you blasted bruh

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Every character has a chance to get in, even if it's slim...

EVERY character

Except non-video game characters.

 

[Zinith]

Except non-video game characters.

Maybe I should've clarified that

 

[CaptainAmerica]

The whole "deserves it" philosophy has done us no good so far my friend. I understand this, but I feel it'd be nonsensical to get 2 Sonic characters, perhaps even 3 with a Shadow echo, over an entirely new SEGA Rep.

Ok, I'll grant that a lot of people don't like the wording of character X 'deserving' to get in Smash...
...and yet, you're saying how it doesn't make sense to put in character X over character Y. Same concept, different words.

There is certainly a favoritism in Smash toward larger, more iconic series getting more representation. True, there are some exceptions, as there are with most 'rules.' Still, by this logic, you're implying that Luigi was a nonsensical addition to something like Smash 64 since Mario already had a rep, and that someone like Takamaru or Pit would have been a better choice as a representative of a different series back then.

Sonic is iconic. His friends, or at least the earlier ones like Tails and Knuckles are also iconic. But the other ideas you've offered...

...oh I don't mean to be rude but WOW this isn't insightful at all.

Puyo Puyo, Virtua Fighter, Yakuza, Shenmue. Come on now...

Puyo is big in Japan, but that's about it. Virtua Fighter is dwarfed in popularity by other fighting games, notably Street Fighter and Tekken. And the others? Not exactly household names.

Yes, Smash is used as a springboard for popularity - that's what got Fire Emblem exported in the first place. But to deny that it is also celebration of gaming icons is simply not true - that was the original intention. It makes perfect sense to pay to put in a character who is as iconic and a household name as much as Tails over paying large third party fees to put in a rather obscure character to advertise for another company.

But don't get me wrong - I think Tails is super unlikely. I just don't think he should be discarded because Sonic's already in.

 

[DarkFalcon]

It doesn't need to have hurtboxes, it's already standard design for extremities to not get hurtboxes; for example the outer third of Mewtwo's tail doesn't have a hurtbox, and the outer half of Charizard's tail doesn't have a hurtbox while his entire wings also don't have hurtboxes.

Huh, really? I never noticed that. I just thought I'd hear a lot of complaining from people if they thought an attack landed but it went straight through without connecting.

 

[BlueMagician]

Phantasy Star's one of Sega's biggest IPs right now with how successful Phantasy Star Online has been over the years. Shenmue and Sakura Taisen are in the process of getting a sequel. Bayonetta's a Sega IP even though other companies are involved. Border Break is one of those big IPs that haven't made it outside of Japan.

Puyo Puyo is something people still associate with Compile instead of Sega, but there's still a lot of demand for Arle.


And this is just stuff that Sega owns, they do work on IPs they don't own too.

 

[Luigi The President]

Ok, I'll grant that a lot of people don't like the wording of character X 'deserving' to get in Smash...
...and yet, you're saying how it doesn't make sense to put in character X over character Y. Same concept, different words.

There is certainly a favoritism in Smash toward larger, more iconic series getting more representation. True, there are some exceptions, as there are with most 'rules.' Still, by this logic, you're implying that Luigi was a nonsensical addition to something like Smash 64 since Mario already had a rep, and that someone like Takamaru or Pit would have been a better choice as a representative of a different series back then.

Sonic is iconic. His friends, or at least the earlier ones like Tails and Knuckles are also iconic. But the other ideas you've offered...

Puyo is big in Japan, but that's about it. Virtua Fighter is dwarfed in popularity by other fighting games, notably Street Fighter and Tekken. And the others? Not exactly household names.

Yes, Smash is used as a springboard for popularity - that's what got Fire Emblem exported in the first place. But to deny that it is also celebration of gaming icons is simply not true - that was the original intention. It makes perfect sense to pay to put in a character who is as iconic and a household name as much as Tails over paying large third party fees to put in a rather obscure character to advertise for another company.

Actually, you totally got me there, friend. I was wrong.

Good points!

 

[CrusherMania1592]

Every character has a chance to get in, even if it's slim...

EVERY character

Except Go--

You heard it here first.
Goku's in.

Goddammit

 

[blazefan519]

https://youtu.be/8S9BRgdRz38
Our god has spoken.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

22 characters?

Let's just turn Super Smash Bros. into Danganronpa, and have one character kill off another character on each of those days, and then Sakurai kills the character that did it once everybody finds out.

We'd go from losing 22 characters to losing 45, then we'd have less than half the cast left.

Who are the victims and who are the culprits?

Bonus points - which two are the one double murder with the second victim being an accomplice?

(I just really love Danganronpa)

 

[Luigi The President]

Who are the victims and who are the culprits?

Bonus points - which two are the one double murder with the second victim being an accomplice?

(I just really love Danganronpa)

I can tell you one thing, and that's that Ganondorf is the mastermind. Junko who?

 

[CrusherMania1592]

TheLastJinjo as much as I love your idea of Zeraora being into Smash due to how it looks the potential to become a fighter (and a bit of a persona bias here), how would Pokemon Company and Sakurai agree for Z to make Smash?

The only reason I can picture Zeraora making it is pulling a Corrin and advertise for a new legendary/mystical Pokemon

 

[Will]

https://youtu.be/8S9BRgdRz38
Our god has spoken.

damn bruh if sakurai barely got castlevania are we sure he can get geno off of square's greasy lil hands

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I actually like Tails as a pick better than what most people are usually on about. He's way more iconic than basically any first party not already in the game, with Sonic already in his rights negotiations would be easy, his moveset pretty much writes itself with him being just about the most natural fit possible, and he doesn't really demand anything extra be put in the game on his behalf since he can just share things like Sonic's stages and music (I guess you'd probably put his theme song from Sonic Adventure in, that's about it...). No individual character is super likely I suppose, but Tails is a strong enough pick that it's really surprising to me that we don't see his name come up more in all the fake leaks we spend so much time discussing.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Huh, really? I never noticed that. I just thought I'd hear a lot of complaining from people if they thought an attack landed but it went straight through without connecting.

Yeah, here's a picture of what Charizard's hurtboxes look like, while doing his f-tilt so you can more easily see the lack of hurtboxes on it (as well as the lack hurtboxes on his wings):

 

[P.Kat]

Sans confirmed since Sakurai is doing a Genocide run

Look's like we're in for a bad time.

 

[Luigi The President]

damn bruh if sakurai barely got castlevania are we sure he can get geno off of square's greasy lil hands

I was thinking about this, and I feel like if he already negotiated for the Mii costume, there won't be much trouble.
We also know Sakurai tends to exaggerate a little bit. He can't come out and say "actually third parties are easy" because of how that'll mess with the fanbases expectations, which I think he's aware of.

 

[Deleted member]

Honestly, I'd personally rather have Blaze in over Tails and Shadow for a Sonic Echo. She'd actually work wonderfully as a Sonic Echo, as all you'd really need to do is just put some fancy flame particles over Sonic's moves and boom: Blaze the Cat. Plus, she originated on the DS, so she gets the "was on a Nintendo system" points!

Honestly, I'll pretty much be happy with anyone from Sonic. Even if I don't care for his...recent outings, I still grew up with the franchise and would love to see it get some more love in Smash.

 

[Blue7113]

It is going to be "hilarious" when the final roster is known and it is nothing like speculators or fans predicted. See what happened when Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4 all leaked. The same will probably happen with Ultimate. People will holler up and down that it is missing certain characters that are deemed "necessary" so it cannot be real, and people will look to more and more convoluted theories as to why Sakurai is pulling our leg.

Already. Who would have seen Ridley coming after Sakurai said he was "too big". Who would have seen Castlevania characters coming when everyone was talking more about the likes of Rayman, Shovel Knight, Shantae, and Kingdom Hearts over this franchise? Who could have predicted Dark Samus making it in despite the most wanted Metroid character for 17 years still having not made it in and her own time in the sun being over for a decade? Who would have predicted Chrom after Smash 4's official material outright mocked the character and Sakurai saying the character brought nothing special to the table? Who would have predicted that our Mario newcomer would be Daisy over the likes of Toad, Geno, Paper Mario, Waluigi, and Captain Toad?

Even when Simon was leaked, who saw a second Castlevania character coming?

The speculators get a lot of things right, but in the end there are many things unknown to us, and we do not understand how the selection process for one game might be different for the current one.

If I were to show the present roster to myself six months ago, I would never have believed it. Too many absurd character choices. However, in the context of Sakurai's new parameters for Ultimate, the characters make perfect sense.

This does not mean "expect out there characters", but rather step outside the expectations of the "crowd" for what we might ultimately get.

Just look now at "Geno, Isaac, and Skull Kid are the new trinity!!!1111". A few weeks ago, Skull Kid was barely a blip. Now due to being seen as "likely" he is seen as likely. Isaac had a cult following too, but the moment people looked at that Ratholos screenshot, they went all "oomgg Issic comfirmed!!!!!".

The biggest loudmouths formulate their own consensus and shout it over and over and over again, and within this maelstrom., people lose sight of their own inner wisdom or intuition. This is perhaps a statement on social media in general though.

"Absorb what is useful. Reject what is useless. Add what is essentially your own." - Bruce Lee

Dear Jesus smash speculation isn’t karate. It shouldn’t be for anything but fun and if it’s anything else, it can be unhealthy.

 

[Sigran101]

I wouldn't exactly say that Shadow is guaranteed, but as long as the Assist Trophy hammer doesn't get him, there is hope.

I don't give a single **** about shadow, but I really do feel he is a garuntee. Probably the single most common third party request I hear irl is shadow. I don't know anything about his fanbase size in the speculation community but when I'm just playing smash with regular people I hear shadow more than Ridley or K Rool. It's actually quite annoying. I'm sure he placed very high on the ballot and he's an easy echo. The only reason I doubted him was because of the whole one 3rd party character per series thing. Plus knuckles being an assist. I don't like it but I'll be utterly shocked if he isn't in.

 

[ned_ballad]

So predictions on new assist trophies?

I think Rundas will replace Dark Samus and Magalor will appear.

 

[Will]

I like how Sakurai said he predicts that people were going to go "Who?" when they say Richter.
That only makes me feel more woke for actually knowing who he was. Also does this mean Sakurai's willing to go for more "who the ****" characters?

 

[Zinith]

So predictions on new assist trophies?

Poochy and/or Grinders for Yoshi

 

[Deleted member]

So predictions on new assist trophies?

I kinda hope we get a Mini Kraid. That would be hilarious.

Hmm...more indie ATs would be cool, so maybe Quote?

 

[blazefan519]

Even though we all basically guessed it, it's pretty nice to have actual confirmation from Sakurai saying that his character choices this time around were from the ballot is nice.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

On the topic of Belmont and the Ballot, back when Vergeben initially leaked Simon over three months ago he claimed he heard Simon got in from him doing well on the Ballot. Here is where he said it.

So if his Smash sources are legit, that means Belmont was a Ballot pick and not a "Sakurai pickTM".

 

[DarkFalcon]

I actually like Tails as a pick better than what most people are usually on about. He's way more iconic than basically any first party not already in the game, with Sonic already in his rights negotiations would be easy, his moveset pretty much writes itself with him being just about the most natural fit possible, and he doesn't really demand anything extra be put in the game on his behalf since he can just share things like Sonic's stages and music (I guess you'd probably put his theme song from Sonic Adventure in, that's about it...). No individual character is super likely I suppose, but Tails is a strong enough pick that it's really surprising to me that we don't see his name come up more in all the fake leaks we spend so much time discussing.

Tails isn't talked about as much because Shadow exists, and with recent knowledge that 3rd parties can get echoes, and Dark Samus being another assist promoted to playable, Shadow makes all the sense in the world as an echo. Tails would be a brand new character. I mean theoretically he can do things that Sonic does, but Shadow fits that bill much better.

I'd be all for Sonic getting several characters, but as is I don't see it happening and the one choice that makes the most sense to most people isn't Tails.

 

[Luigi The President]

On the topic of Belmont and the Ballot, back when Vergeben initially leaked Simon over three months ago he claimed he heard Simon got in from him doing well on the Ballot. Here is where he said it.

This is...very, very interesting.

Let's take a look at this. Most reliable Ballot poll thingy we've got.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...pw5m-b4JHJ0_cGRKU15KYlTe1E/edit#gid=729442469

Simon places 11th for third party newcomers here.

 

[Noipoi]

This is...very, very interesting.

Let's take a look at this. Most reliable Ballot poll thingy we've got.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...pw5m-b4JHJ0_cGRKU15KYlTe1E/edit#gid=729442469

Simon places 11th for third party newcomers here.

I like how Pokemon Trainer is above Goku.
Clearly the people have good taste.
Also, Sceptile isn't even top 70. If we get a new Pokemon, it's not gonna be from the ballot. Unless Sakurai acknowledges the trolls and puts Magnemite in.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Poochy and/or Grinders for Yoshi

You really want Poochy? I know being the world's #1 Yoshi fan is like your gimmick, but I played Yoshi's Island enough to remember that the level name "Poochy Ain't Stupid" was the biggest lie on the SNES.

-

My personal pick for a new assist trophy is stealing a suggestion from someone much earlier in this discussion, don't remember who but full disclosure this isn't original. I think to go with the new "you score points in time matches" mechanic we need Glass Joe from Punch Out! He wouldn't be a very effective fighter, but he would be easy to KO which would be a thrilling dynamic to pulling him. He'd be the Goldeen of assist trophies except with such higher stakes.

Tails isn't talked about as much because Shadow exists, and with recent knowledge that 3rd parties can get echoes, and Dark Samus being another assist promoted to playable, Shadow makes all the sense in the world as an echo. Tails would be a brand new character. I mean theoretically he can do things that Sonic does, but Shadow fits that bill much better.

I'd be all for Sonic getting several characters, but as is I don't see it happening and the one choice that makes the most sense to most people isn't Tails.

I mean Shadow might or might not be an echo, but echoes aren't really new characters so it's not super consequential either way. If Smash operated on the basis of quotas we'd have less than half as many Fire Emblem characters; that's not how anything has ever worked. I could easily imagine Shadow as a Sonic echo, but at the same time, I think it's 100% independent of whatever chances Tails has to make it as a real newcomer.

 

[SSB4Dojo]

This is...very, very interesting.

Let's take a look at this. Most reliable Ballot poll thingy we've got.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...pw5m-b4JHJ0_cGRKU15KYlTe1E/edit#gid=729442469

Simon places 11th for third party newcomers here.

My work on this from 3 years ago is a combination of 14 US polls and the one set of data Sourcegaming gathered on Japan in 2015 during the ballot. With 45,000 votes, it should give a basic idea of where things stand. Of course it isn't perfect but it tries to get information from various communities of smash that each had their own wants.

 

[Luigi The President]

My work on this from 3 years ago is a combination of 14 US polls and the one set of data Sourcegaming gathered on Japan in 2015 during the ballot. With 45,000 votes, it should give a basic idea of where things stand. Of course it isn't perfect but it tries to get information from various communities of smash that each had their own wants.

Hi SSB4Dojo! We talked a while ago on reddit, but hi again.

It's the best resource we have, imo, and Simon's standing on it is very interesting.
It may be that him being confirmed first instead of say, Rayman, means nothing, or Rayman didn't "really" place that high on the Ballot.
Or, Vergeben just heard wrong this time. Or Sakurai just felt Simon's popularity was one of many factors getting him in.

 

[Blue7113]

Why does Sakurai saying he’s choosing characters from the ballot so controversial? We all knew it. Y’all will complain about everything. Half of you complain that Sakurai isn’t adding fan favorites last time, so he does what you ask him. And then the other half complains that no relevant characters are getting in. Not to mention everyone is especially defensive of x character because there are limited slots due to Sakurai saying not to expect to many characters. So instead of a new reveal being just positive, it’s also a little bad because now x character has less of a chance. At some point it makes super smash bros uninteresting and depressing because everything is tainted by a hundred complaints. I love speculating but I have to skip some conversations because it can make it where I’m not even excited for the game anymore. You may not agree which is fine, but that’s just my experience.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

This is...very, very interesting.

Let's take a look at this. Most reliable Ballot poll thingy we've got.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...pw5m-b4JHJ0_cGRKU15KYlTe1E/edit#gid=729442469

Simon places 11th for third party newcomers here.

The fact that Crash is ranked lower than Goku is extremely disturbing...