Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Balloon Fighter would be a really interesting character, relying on being in the air. Kind of like a reverse Little Mac.

We already have a reverse Little Mac though

 

[Cosmic77]

I know I've said this before but i think a moveset revolving around power-ups throughout the Mario series would be a lot more interesting than something inspired from Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker. I can see [regular] Toad using things like the Propeller Mushroom or a Springboard to recover, maybe the Penguin Suit as a sliding attack, maybe throw a boomerang forward, etc.

also I really don't like Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker, the game is a boring puzzle platformer made to cash in on Super Mario 3D World. That and I 100% the entire game on my first playthrough so I have no incentive to play it ever again.

Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker was a good game, but it wasn't worth the $60 retail price.

As quirky and fun as he may be, Captain Toad doesn't seem like the best choice for a Mario newcomer anyway. His game was quickly shoved aside and Nintendo doesn't seem to have any big plans for him besides occasional supporting roles. Mario is in a tight spot this time around.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker was a good game, but it wasn't worth the $60 retail price.

As quirky and fun as he may be, Captain Toad doesn't seem like the best choice for a Mario newcomer anyway. His game was quickly shoved aside and Nintendo doesn't seem to have any big plans for him besides occasional supporting roles. Mario is in a tight spot this time around.

I wouldn't say Mario is doomed to have no newcomers this entry per say. Toad has been a pretty recurring character since the NES days, and is really the only recurring Mario character yet to be on the roster. Paper Mario is another equally-requested rep, who has a lot of moveset potential to pull from. That being said, his chances would increase even more if we get another Paper Mario game on Switch.

Daisy and Waluigi aren't impossible per say, though the fact that they're simply spin-off only characters, plus Nintendo seemingly intending to keep it that way, probably hurts their chances.

 

[Cosmic77]

I wouldn't say Mario is doomed to have no newcomers this entry per say. Toad has been a pretty recurring character since the NES days, and is really the only recurring Mario character yet to be on the roster. Paper Mario is another equally-requested rep, who has a lot of moveset potential to pull from. That being said, his chances would increase even more if we get another Paper Mario game on Switch.

Daisy and Waluigi aren't impossible per say, though the fact that they're simply spin-off only characters, plus Nintendo seemingly intending to keep it that way, probably hurts their chances.

Toad, Waluigi, and Daisy all share the same unfortunate history of being passed up on for several Smash games despite being almost constantly relevant. It's still possible one could be added, but Rosalina and Jr. getting added before them speaks volumes.

Oh, and if Paper Mario gets a moveset inspired by his first three games, I'll welcome him in Smash with open arms. If his moveset consists of stickers and paint, the character is dead to me.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I'd say Mario has a lower chance than most other established series of getting a new character.

Zelda has a lot of characters but most are like Sheik in that they only appeared once
Donkey Kong has a large cast of heroes and villains but only Donkey and Diddy are in so far.
Star Fox has a dropped character that can return even before we get into new ones.
Metroid doesn't have much considering the fan favourite is up there with Dark Type Gyms in the realms of "never happening, shut up"
Yoshi... err... um... Poochie maybe?
Kirby has a couple of options even if none of them are as big as Meta Knight and DDD were
Pokemon has 800+ of the things to chose from.
Fire Emblem became massive seemingly overnight and has another game on the way
Wario has a lot of supporting characters... now if only his series wasn't left to die after Game & Wario.
Pikmin has Alph who seems to have not had enough time to be made into his own character last time
Kid Icarus has a lot of quirky characters but DP needs some serious Luigification first.
Animal Crossing has all manner of Animals to cross into Smash: Tom Nook, KK Slider, Ressetti, Isabelle...

 

[Bowserlick]

Paper Mario's time may have slipped on by. My idea was for Paper Mario to toggle through his companions with Down B to change the rest of his specials and perhaps a Smash move. This special-switching mechanic could be used for other others.

Toad and Waluigi would be my picks for new Mario characters. Toad would be the only speed character from the Mushroom Kingdom that uses anti-aerial Mariokart Item moves. Waluigi would base his moveset around his rage-filled, inferiority-complex , creep persona and lanky body.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Toad, Waluigi, and Daisy all share the same unfortunate history of being passed up on for several Smash games despite being almost constantly relevant. It's still possible one could be added, but Rosalina and Jr. getting added before them speaks volumes.

Oh, and if Paper Mario gets a moveset inspired by his first three games, I'll welcome him in Smash with open arms. If his moveset consists of stickers and paint, the character is dead to me.

To be absolutely fair I'd say Bowser Jr. is more important than Toad. Secondary antagonist vs. tertiary protagonist.

Given how poorly both Paper Mario: Sticker Star and Paper Mario: Color Splash were received, I imagine Sakurai (or the new director) would consider it a misrepresentation of the character if those games were the base of Paper Mario's moveset.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

I agree with the fact that Captain Toad should be able to jump. Yes it would not make any sense canon wise, but it at least balances them.

Ridley being shrunken down just a bit where he still looks menacing would make him viable as a balanced character, but would violate the canon. That's a gigantic "but" in Sakurai's eyes, and the reason he didn't include Ridley despite all the demand.

Sakurai doesn't like violating canon, especially a character's main "thing", just to make them playable. Ridley's thing is that he's a giant space dragon. Sakurai said he couldn't change that. Captain Toad's thing in his game is that he can't jump. Sakurai's previous statments suggest he can't change that either.

Of course Sakurai's a weird guy and could either change his mind like he did for Villager and the Miis, or he could find a way to make Captain Toad work without jumping.

To be absolutely fair I'd say Bowser Jr. is more important than Toad. Secondary antagonist vs. tertiary protagonist.

I think they're equal in terms of importance, but for different reasons. Bowser Jr. has been very recurring in prominent roles since his debut.

Toad has usually had lesser roles but has consistently been around since the very beginning, being the only one of the five characters in the original SMB to not be playable in smash.

One thing I've noticed is that Bowser Jr. seems to be fading out of prominence as of late. He wasn't in 3D World at all (where Toad was playable), and wasn't even mentioned in Odyssey.

Actually, now that I think about it, him not being in Odyssey is really odd. The whole plot was that Bowser wants to marry Peach, forming a family with her. It seems really weird that his son wasn't even mentioned throughout all of that.

Not that I really think Bowser Jr's chances of returning will be affected by that. They still like using the character now and then. He was a big part of that Parental Controls promo after all.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Got a question that's come to mind after seeing so many Impa related posts, especially that Yoda one: what's wrong with Impa being old and in Smash? Gonna at least specifically ask Diddy Kong since if I'm not mistaken, you're for the idea of Cranky getting into Smash? Or perhaps that was just a joke. Not always easy to tell online.

Cranky am quite serious about. He's the original Arcade Donkey Kong, and was / is gonna be playable in Tropical Freeze. Which the developers kinda made a big deal about. Cranky Kong is hugely iconic, and popular -even with Miyamoto. Plus he has actual moveset potential, and could be a sort-of joke character. Am quite serious about wanting him, but he's not as likely as Dixie Kong, or even King K.Rool. But I still want her.

BOTW Impa never really fought herself, but she's the leader of the Sheikah and supposedly also fought Calamity Ganon 'in the past' / when she was young. She hasn't done much of a thing in BOTW, but her previous role in Skyward Sword was as a young Sheikah warrior. It's kind of hit or miss, am serious about the character, just not the older version unless she suddenly appears and kicks major ass as a old lady in a new appearance.

 

[Deleted member]

Ridley being shrunken down just a bit where he still looks menacing would make him viable as a balanced character, but would violate the canon. That's a gigantic "but" in Sakurai's eyes, and the reason he didn't include Ridley despite all the demand.

Sakurai doesn't like violating canon, especially a character's main "thing", just to make them playable. Ridley's thing is that he's a giant space dragon. Sakurai said he couldn't change that. Captain Toad's thing in his game is that he can't jump. Sakurai's previous statments suggest he can't change that either.

Of course Sakurai's a weird guy and could either change his mind like he did for Villager and the Miis, or he could find a way to make Captain Toad work without jumping.

Think about Squirtle drowning despite Squirtle being able to swim permanently in Brawl. If he had no jump, his air game would be just as lacking as Little Mac's. The only way he could get air attacks would be if he was falling, which is bad. No Jumps would hinder him greatly and make him not fun to play, so I say he should be able to jump a little at least.

 

[Bowserlick]

If you want to make Captain Toad or any character not jump, then you could push some of their moves in terms of power level. And you would have to make sure there are some tools in the arsenal to cover some of the weaknesses of 'No Jump.'

• Cap. Toad can have an anti-aerial set if he pushes the jump button while remaining grounded. The anti-aerial set turns into an aerial set if he is airborne. Up A can throw pickaxes, Forward A can be a homing grappling hook, Back A a sweeping arc behind Toad with a grappling hook, Down A tosses a grappling hook like an anchor to the floor or off the side of a stage, neutral A swinging his grappiling hook in a circle which allows him to move slightly left or right in the air more than usual.
* His grab command turns into a grappling hook thrown straight up to catch enemies and bring them down for a throw.

• His Up Smash could be a clear pipe that shoots him in the air like a cannon.

• His Down Special could be an aimable Turnip cannon that shoots large turnips at airborne foes.

• His Side Special could be the Super PickAxe which allows him to charge forward while slicing through projectiles. He charges into a straight line in the air and if he hits the side of the stage and has distance left on his move, he goes up the wall.

• B could be a potted piranha plant that pulls him along and can be controlled and moved anywhere like Pac-Man's dot chase. Once the duration is up, Cap. lets go and the plant keeps chomping off the stage.

• Cap Toad's top speed does not have to be high, but he should have great traction, able to turn on a dime. His dodges and rolls have to be good.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

Think about Squirtle drowning despite Squirtle being able to swim permanently in Brawl.

Being able to swim indefinitely isn't Squirtle's thing. People don't look at Squirtle and remember him as the Pokémon who can't drown. It's just a minor logical thing

Captain Toad's main gimmick in his game is that he can not jump. Every part of every level is designed around it. Removing his lack of jump would be like removing every one of Squirtle's water-related moves. It would stick out to everyone who has played their games.

If he had no jump, his air game would be just as lacking as Little Mac's. The only way he could get air attacks would be if he was falling, which is bad. No Jumps would hinder him greatly and make him not fun to play, so I say he should be able to jump a little at least.

I agree. Either Sakurai deems it impossible to have a jumpless character and doesn't add Captain Toad, or he comes up with some genius gimmick to make it work. The man's unpredictable.

My argument is just that Sakurai will not add a Captain Toad that can jump. He'll either somehow add him without a jump or not add him at all. I still think regular Toad should be added at the end of the day.

Don't take me the wrong way. I'm not trying to act like I know the guy. I hate saying "Sakurai will" and "Sakurai will not," like I'm in the guy's head, but I don't want to type out "previous evidence and statements suggest that Sakurai will probably" every time.

 

[Deleted member]

Being able to swim indefinitely isn't Squirtle's thing. People don't look at Squirtle and remember him as the Pokémon who can't drown. It's just a minor logical thing

Captain Toad's main gimmick in his game is that he can not jump. Every part of every level is designed around it. Removing his lack of jump would be like removing every one of Squirtle's water-related moves. It would stick out to everyone who has played their games.


I agree. Either Sakurai deems it impossible to have a jumpless character and doesn't add Captain Toad, or he comes up with some genius gimmick to make it work. The man's unpredictable.

My argument is just that Sakurai will not add a Captain Toad that can jump. He'll either somehow add him without a jump or not add him at all. I still think regular Toad should be added at the end of the day.

Don't take me the wrong way. I'm not trying to act like I know the guy. I hate saying "Sakurai will" and "Sakurai will not," like I'm in the guy's head, but I don't want to type out "previous evidence and statements suggest that Sakurai will probably" every time.

Sorry if this statement is a little too broad, but I find this argument quite satisfying. While I would prefer Captain Toad to jump, maybe they could. Or they can just add regular Toad and make Captain Toad an alt without his back-pack. Sakurai is a genius, maybe he can do it.

 

[Deleted member]

Think about Squirtle drowning despite Squirtle being able to swim permanently in Brawl.

....why do people keep bringing this up?

Seriously.
Why do people keep bringing this up?

What makes Squirtle's case so goddamn special, when literally every playable character who normally could swim indefinitely in their home series (though some are inconsistent) has been given a limit on how long they can tread water before getting tired and sinking?

Does everyone just forget that detail and only focus on Squirtle because "it Water Type Pokémon" (while forgetting Greninja is a Water Type as well, it seems....)?

 

[Deleted member]

....why do people keep bringing this up?

Seriously.
Why do people keep bringing this up?

What makes Squirtle's case so goddamn special, when literally every playable character who normally could swim indefinitely in their home series (though some are inconsistent) has been given a limit on how long they can tread water before getting tired and sinking?

Does everyone just forget that detail and only focus on Squirtle because "it Water Type Pokémon" (while forgetting Greninja is a Water Type as well, it seems....)?

Oh, I should of thought about that. It generates water, but it has lungs. But it's lungs would have to be aquatic to breathe out water. Then again it does not have gills. Good point.
I just thought at the time that was the case to prove that CT would b flawed without jumping.

 

[Deleted member]

Oh, I should of thought about that. It generates water, but it has lungs. But it's lungs would have to be aquatic to breathe out water. Then again it does not have gills. Good point.
I just thought at the time that was the case to prove that CT would b flawed without jumping.

The other thing to remember, is that "drowning" in Smash, does not refer to the actual act of drowning (death by inhaling water while being submerged), but rather "getting tired from treading water and sinking to the bottom Blast Zone for a KO once that stamina is empty".

 

[Sid-cada]

Sakurai doesn't like violating canon, especially a character's main "thing", just to make them playable.

What about Meta Knight?

Up until his introduction in Brawl, Meta Knight was always known for being a chivalrous and honorable opponent. While he does use certain sword techniques, both magical and not, which Kirby could not use, he typically would try to ensure an even playing ground by refusing to fight Kirby unless both had swords. This got kinda ridiculous in Super Star, when Meta Knight was willing to wait a good 30 seconds for Kirby to pick up a sword, even though the Halberd was falling into the ocean at the time.

The only times this didn't happen was in Amazing Mirror, which was supposed to hint that you were actually fighting his evil twin, and Squeak Squad, which was due to a more serious thing on the line (and the plot admittedly was ****).


All of this gets thrown away for his Dimensional Cape, which allows him to hide in the shadows to run away and perform sneak attacks. That's about as underhanded as you can get, which goes against Meta Knight's code of chivalry.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

What about Meta Knight?

Up until his introduction in Brawl, Meta Knight was always known for being a chivalrous and honorable opponent. While he does use certain sword techniques, both magical and not, which Kirby could not use, he typically would try to ensure an even playing ground by refusing to fight Kirby unless both had swords. This got kinda ridiculous in Super Star, when Meta Knight was willing to wait a good 30 seconds for Kirby to pick up a sword, even though the Halberd was falling into the ocean at the time.

The only times this didn't happen was in Amazing Mirror, which was supposed to hint that you were actually fighting his evil twin, and Squeak Squad, which was due to a more serious thing on the line (and the plot admittedly was ****).


All of this gets thrown away for his Dimensional Cape, which allows him to hide in the shadows to run away and perform sneak attacks. That's about as underhanded as you can get, which goes against Meta Knight's code of chivalry.

There's also the fact that he doesn't offer a sword to characters who lack one.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

What about Meta Knight?

Up until his introduction in Brawl, Meta Knight was always known for being a chivalrous and honorable opponent. While he does use certain sword techniques, both magical and not, which Kirby could not use, he typically would try to ensure an even playing ground by refusing to fight Kirby unless both had swords. This got kinda ridiculous in Super Star, when Meta Knight was willing to wait a good 30 seconds for Kirby to pick up a sword, even though the Halberd was falling into the ocean at the time.

The only times this didn't happen was in Amazing Mirror, which was supposed to hint that you were actually fighting his evil twin, and Squeak Squad, which was due to a more serious thing on the line (and the plot admittedly was ****).


All of this gets thrown away for his Dimensional Cape, which allows him to hide in the shadows to run away and perform sneak attacks. That's about as underhanded as you can get, which goes against Meta Knight's code of chivalry.

Sakurai, who is the creator of Meta Knight and therefore decides what his character actually is like at will, must've just decided that offering his a sword wouldn't work in Smash but wasn't necessary to have.

Honestly I never really noticed that Meta Knight offers a sword in Kirby and doesn't in Smash until you pointed it out. Doesn't really seem that important honestly. Just a thing to make the battle cooler.

 

[Sid-cada]

Sakurai, who is the creator of Meta Knight and therefore decides what his character actually is like at will, must've just decided that offering his a sword wouldn't work in Smash but wasn't necessary to have.

Honestly I never really noticed that Meta Knight offers a sword in Kirby and doesn't in Smash until you pointed it out. Doesn't really seem that important honestly. Just a thing to make the battle cooler.

And what about using Dimensional Cape to perform sneak attacks?

While I do understand not giving him the sword (that's kinda unwieldy), he should at least be fighting honorably, not performing dirty tricks.

The point of stating the sword thing was to show how chivalrous he is, not that he doesn't do it.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

...Why would Meta Knight offer other characters a sword anyway? Kirby is one thing. But Kirby has a sword in his moveset anyway, so...

He's an honorable knight, but that's harder to translate to Smash. Personality-wise, sure. Moveset-wise and how they overall fight? Not so easy.

Also, to add onto the post right above mine, Meta Knight(in the anime) intentionally fakes being loyal to the king. Honor is theoretically a thing with him, but it's not clearly a major thing with his character. It's more of a front and he is fine with being dirty or a traitor. He's a Star Warrior, which is more important to him. Heroes aren't perfect either, in fact, it's quite common to show they have flaws. Meta Knight has a flaw too, and that he's not actually as honorable as he lets on.

 

[Opossum]

The way I see it, if Sakurai was okay with Robin wielding Nosferatu as a highlighted special move despite him literally being unable to wield Dark Magic outside of a non-canon reclass, Captain Toad should be able to have short jumps.

Canon is canon, and Sakurai has defied it before.

 

[Bowserlick]

The problem with having Captain Toad jump, is that you already have Toad that can jump (although not well). Toad has been playable for a very long time. He has stats and has Mario Kart games, as well as others, to pluck material from. Peach and Luigi have movements from SMB 2. Toad just seems like a missing piece of a puzzle at this point.

If you want spice, have Toadette as a costume.

If Captain Toad is chosen over Toad, then he should not be able to jump. And it could be done. But would he be fun to play as or against?

 

[Deleted member]

What about Meta Knight?

Up until his introduction in Brawl, Meta Knight was always known for being a chivalrous and honorable opponent. While he does use certain sword techniques, both magical and not, which Kirby could not use, he typically would try to ensure an even playing ground by refusing to fight Kirby unless both had swords. This got kinda ridiculous in Super Star, when Meta Knight was willing to wait a good 30 seconds for Kirby to pick up a sword, even though the Halberd was falling into the ocean at the time.

The only times this didn't happen was in Amazing Mirror, which was supposed to hint that you were actually fighting his evil twin, and Squeak Squad, which was due to a more serious thing on the line (and the plot admittedly was ****).


All of this gets thrown away for his Dimensional Cape, which allows him to hide in the shadows to run away and perform sneak attacks. That's about as underhanded as you can get, which goes against Meta Knight's code of chivalry.

1. Meta Knight is Sakurai's own creation. He can take liberties with his own characters as he sees fit.

2. Meta Knight isn't stupid. Smash battles have a completely different set of rules to his usual style of combat. He's not simply having one-on-one duels of honor, he's put in a situation where free-for-alls with useable weapons and exploitable stage elements are the norm. So naturally, chivalry is thrown out the window.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Meta Knight isn't stupid. Smash battles have a completely different set of rules to his usual style of combat. He's not simply having one-on-one duels of honor, he's put in a situation where free-for-alls with useable weapons and exploitable stage elements are the norm. So naturally, chivalry is thrown out the window.

That's actually an amazing point.

Chivalry can't be used in a place where it's inexistant.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The problem with having Captain Toad jump, is that you already have Toad that can jump (although not well). Toad has been playable for a very long time. He has stats and has Mario Kart games, as well as others, to pluck material from. Peach and Luigi have movements from SMB 2. Toad just seems like a missing piece of a puzzle at this point.

If you want spice, have Toadette as a costume.

If Captain Toad is chosen over Toad, then he should not be able to jump. And it could be done. But would he be fun to play as or against?

It could be fun, honestly. It'd be hard to say. The problem is that many players are used to real jumps, and he'd be extremely awkward. But then again, so was Wii Fit Trainer's playstyle. It'd be a neat moveset and very unique overall. Whether or not Sakurai or whoever the next Director is finds it balanced enough and fun to play as is another story. I mean, he's clearly not up for taking away signature abilities(or making a character use one that makes no sense either, as shown with Dark Pit) either, but can modify them if they remotely could be reworked while not ruining the whole point of a character.

To be honest, I doubt Captain Toad will get in outside of a unique gimmick(like a cannon shooting him upwards as his actual jump), and still doubt we'll see Toad anytime soon(not because of the Peach thing, but because Toad doesn't have a standout ability that are his and his alone. One is easy to fix. The other requires actual inspiration).

We can always hope one or the other gets in, though I'd put my money more on Paper Mario at this point. Waluigi it seems like he wants as an AT, and he's commented on his fighter status being denied too, so... and I don't know what to think on Daisy. Seems like a moveset issue at best, as she doesn't have any unique abilities at this time. Waluigi does, but see the other point.

 

[Bowserlick]

Well, chivalry has a religious connection. So, there is an argument that if you cannot use chivalry where

It could be fun, honestly. It'd be hard to say. The problem is that many players are used to real jumps, and he'd be extremely awkward. But then again, so was Wii Fit Trainer's playstyle. It'd be a neat moveset and very unique overall. Whether or not Sakurai or whoever the next Director is finds it balanced enough and fun to play as is another story. I mean, he's clearly not up for taking away signature abilities(or making a character use one that makes no sense either, as shown with Dark Pit) either, but can modify them if they remotely could be reworked while not ruining the whole point of a character.

I agree that a character that cannot jump could be fun and can work if done right. A jump button triggering long-range moves to knock opponents down while the Cap. is grounded is one way to do it.

Sakurai loves challenges. I can imagine in a meeting someone mentioning Captain Toad as a playable character. Sakurai just raises a brow, questions if that character is even real and leaves for tea when the out-spoken designer mutters," He wouldn't work anyways, can't jump."

That's when Sakurai kicks the door back open and commands," Captain Toad is in!"

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Well, chivalry has a religious connection. So, there is an argument that if you cannot use chivalry where


I agree that a character that cannot jump could be fun and can work if done right. A jump button triggering long-range moves to knock opponents down while the Cap. is grounded is one way to do it.

Sakurai loves challenges. I can imagine in a meeting someone mentioning Captain Toad as a playable character. Sakurai just raises a brow, questions if that character is even real and leaves for tea when the out-spoken designer mutters," He wouldn't work anyways, can't jump."

That's when Sakurai kicks the door back open and commands," Captain Toad is in!"

The reason I suggested the Cannon Jump(...The irony is Captain Toad doesn't have a Canon Jump ) was more for balance reasons. While an anti-air character sounds good, unless he has a higher recovery option for Up B, it feels like he can't recover easily enough to be reasonably balanced. An extreme recovery Up B feels like a bad idea. For similar reasons, I think R.O.B.'s is a bit borked(though I forget if it's the same one in 4 as in Brawl). Anti-air still sounds like a good idea, like possibly a chargeable B attack you could aim, or the Up Smash being something like Villager's Bottle Rocket in the sense of "anti-air".

 

[Bowserlick]

The reason I suggested the Cannon Jump(...The irony is Captain Toad doesn't have a Canon Jump ) was more for balance reasons. While an anti-air character sounds good, unless he has a higher recovery option for Up B, it feels like he can't recover easily enough to be reasonably balanced. An extreme recovery Up B feels like a bad idea. For similar reasons, I think R.O.B.'s is a bit borked(though I forget if it's the same one in 4 as in Brawl). Anti-air still sounds like a good idea, like possibly a chargeable B attack you could aim, or the Up Smash being something like Villager's Bottle Rocket in the sense of "anti-air".

Captain Toad probably needs a way to launch into the air from the ground from a Smash move or special. Most of his specials should have an aerial component: Potted Piranha Plant that moves him where directed in the air, a minecart on a track, his Super Pickaxe that can climb walls and go through projectiles, ect.

His anti-aerial moveset can throw projectiles in the ground, have an aerial grab, a homing attack, ect.

Captain Toad can be done and having Toad as a fallback, in case the Cap. Toad design is not feasible is at least some incentive to try if Sakurai wanted to take the challenge.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

which seven characters debuting from 2014 and beyond

Inkling
Spring Man
Elma
Rex and Pyra
Decidueye
Shovel Knight
Urbosa

 

[Deleted member]

The other thing to remember, is that "drowning" in Smash, does not refer to the actual act of drowning (death by inhaling water while being submerged), but rather "getting tired from treading water and sinking to the bottom Blast Zone for a KO once that stamina is empty".

Sorry if this is late, but now I see what you mean. Squirtle can get tired in water and go all the way into the bottom. I guess the argument that what I said is invalid.

What about Meta Knight?

Up until his introduction in Brawl, Meta Knight was always known for being a chivalrous and honorable opponent. While he does use certain sword techniques, both magical and not, which Kirby could not use, he typically would try to ensure an even playing ground by refusing to fight Kirby unless both had swords. This got kinda ridiculous in Super Star, when Meta Knight was willing to wait a good 30 seconds for Kirby to pick up a sword, even though the Halberd was falling into the ocean at the time.

The only times this didn't happen was in Amazing Mirror, which was supposed to hint that you were actually fighting his evil twin, and Squeak Squad, which was due to a more serious thing on the line (and the plot admittedly was ****).


All of this gets thrown away for his Dimensional Cape, which allows him to hide in the shadows to run away and perform sneak attacks. That's about as underhanded as you can get, which goes against Meta Knight's code of chivalry.

Okay, you are just overreacting. Let Sakurai does whatever he wants. Meta Knight's move-set is just based on how he fights in the Kirby games. ( Dimensional Cape - MK can teleport, you get it ). Honestly, Meta Knight's move-set is as good as it is. Meta Knight is not trying to have a dramatic sword duel, he is trying to attack his opponets through random gimmicks or other techniques to cost him a win. This argument you are saying is invalid.

1. Meta Knight is Sakurai's own creation. He can take liberties with his own characters as he sees fit.

2. Meta Knight isn't stupid. Smash battles have a completely different set of rules to his usual style of combat. He's not simply having one-on-one duels of honor, he's put in a situation where free-for-alls with useable weapons and exploitable stage elements are the norm. So naturally, chivalry is thrown out the window.

I completely agree with this.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

And what about using Dimensional Cape to perform sneak attacks?

While I do understand not giving him the sword (that's kinda unwieldy), he should at least be fighting honorably, not performing dirty tricks.

The point of stating the sword thing was to show how chivalrous he is, not that he doesn't do it.

I think you are making too much of a stretch saying that that move goes against Meta Knight's character. First of all, it is a canon ability of Meta Knight, secondly, the opponent knows it's coming so it isn't exactly dishonorable. It would be if he simply ambushed an enemy with it without letting them know of their presence beforehand, but once in the heat of combat, moves that serve to confound an opponent and attack where they least expect are fair game. And third, teleport attacks are just too cool to not have.

As someone mentioned before, Sakurai who created Meta Knight thought it would be a good idea. There is no need to religiously avoid taking liberties once in a while. He also gave Dedede a Jet Hammer, which was later incorporated in Super Star Ultra.

1. Meta Knight is Sakurai's own creation. He can take liberties with his own characters as he sees fit.

2. Meta Knight isn't stupid. Smash battles have a completely different set of rules to his usual style of combat. He's not simply having one-on-one duels of honor, he's put in a situation where free-for-alls with useable weapons and exploitable stage elements are the norm. So naturally, chivalry is thrown out the window.

I feel that that is almost like saying as well that rpg characters should take turns in Smash when fighting.

 

[Staarih]

I'm personally on the side which thinks that if Sakurai decides to add Captain Toad, he will be able to jump in some way (what way is up to debate). Cross-over appearances like this have to take some liberties to make balance of their own games work out. Captain Toad jumps in Super Mario Maker, for example (if we're really stretching things), the gameplay wouldn't work if he couldn't, much like it wouldn't with Smash.

All of this is moot, of course, if Sakurai doesn't add Captain Toad.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I think most of us are overthinking this.

If Sakurai wants a character, he'll make them work. Regardless of canon.

If he doesn't, he won't.

Simple as that.

 

[Deleted member]

You know, it saddens me that nobody talks about new Kirby things besides Bandanna Dee. Bandanna Dee should be added, but lets consider other things. We need more Kirby stages, TGCO, Halberd and Dreamland seem like too little for a series that Sakurai himself created. Sure that may be because of over-saturation, but the Kirby universe is just too creative and colorful to not include more stages. Who is with me here?

I think most of us are overthinking this.

If Sakurai wants a character, he'll make them work. Regardless of canon.

If he doesn't, he won't.

Simple as that.

Perfect.

 

[Nonno Umby]

1. Meta Knight is Sakurai's own creation. He can take liberties with his own characters as he sees fit.

2. Meta Knight isn't stupid. Smash battles have a completely different set of rules to his usual style of combat. He's not simply having one-on-one duels of honor, he's put in a situation where free-for-alls with useable weapons and exploitable stage elements are the norm. So naturally, chivalry is thrown out the window.

Playing Devil's Advocate:

1) Sakurai can discuss with Captain Toad's creator (Koizumi?) in order to have creative liberties for him in Smash, which is something that he had always done with almost every character.

2) Captain Toad isn't stupid. In his main game the majority of his enemies are very slow and easily avoidable, letting him keep his stuff. In a free for all situation, how can we say that he wouldn't throw things out of his backpack in order to attack and having better movement? But, being a Treasure Tracker (eheh), he can find new items for his backpack.

 

[N3ON]

I think most of us are overthinking this.

If Sakurai wants a character, he'll make them work. Regardless of canon.

If he doesn't, he won't.

Simple as that.

I don't think it is that simple. I mean, I do think most people are overcomplicating this whole Captain Toad business, but I don't think Sakurai's desire to see a character implemented would outweigh his adherence to faithful representation.

Like, Ridley, for instance. I don't believe Sakurai dislikes Ridley. Despite his constant omission, I really have no reason to believe that. What I believe is more or less what Sakurai said, that to include Ridley would compromise the integrity of the character in Sakurai's eyes. Or Villager. Clearly Sakurai was not adverse theoretically to an AC character in Smash, in Brawl he included the series as best as could be without a playable character, but he believed, for a while, that the character simply didn't mesh with Smash's violence. Of course he can change his opinion... as he did in that case, but he's not going to "break" the character for his own want. Really the best example is probably ICs in Smash 4.

So... I do think this could apply to Captain Toad if Sakurai believes his inability to jump is super crucial. Personally I don't think it will be. I don't think changing that one element for the sake of functionality destroys who Captain Toad is. And Sakurai might share that opinion, he might not, or he may not even consider the character. Who knows.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

You know, it saddens me that nobody talks about new Kirby things besides Bandanna Dee. Bandanna Dee should be added, but lets consider other things. We need more Kirby stages, TGCO, Halberd and Dreamland seem like too little for a series that Sakurai himself created. Sure that may be because of over-saturation, but the Kirby universe is just too creative and colorful to not include more stages. Who is with me here?

They unfortunately seem to be ignoring pretty much any content past Kirby Air Ride. The one exception is, what, Mangalor's trophy in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U?

That said, if we do get a new director they may put more focus on the Kirby games that came after Sakurai left HAL Laboratories. I've been wanting a Kirby's Epic Yarn-based stage for awhile now, and I imagine the newer games starting with Kirby's Return to Dream Land have potential in them as well. Waddle Dee is also a possibility, as he's pretty much one of the new Kirby characters that appears consistently to not be in Smash yet.

 

[N3ON]

Sakurai doesn't outright ignore Kirby games from after his involvement, but he definitely sidelines them to his own work. In that vein I would not expect Bandana Dee, but a stage from a newer Kirby game does not seem outside the realm of possibility. Iirc Sakurai was considering an Epic Yarn stage before it proved too similar to the Woolly World stage. Though I don't have an on-hand source.

Regardless, expect heavy amounts of older Kirby content. Always.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I've been wanting a Kirby's Epic Yarn-based stage for awhile now,

You almost got it.

There was going to be a Kirby's Epic Yarn stage until Sakurai learned about Woolly World.

Then he gave the aethetic to Woolly World and changed the stage to the Great Cave Offensive.