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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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Bowserlick

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If you are going for Captain Toad, than you need for him to lack jumping. If he just has low jumps, you might as well include regular Toad.

How can we incorporate a character that cannot jump into a game that revolves around jumping and movement. Here is an idea.

The press of the jump button turns on Captain Toad's headlamp. The input of neutral A and directional A moves turn into an anti-aerial moveset.

Neutral A has him spin a pick-axe on a rope. This does multi-hits and can be kept spinning by holding A. This charges his other anti-air moves slightly. You can then input a direction and toss the grappling hook or skip pressing A and simply enter your input after putting on the headlamp.

Headlamp forward throws the pick-axe diagonally upward in front of Toad. And so on with the other directions. If Captain Toad is thrown in the air, then he automatically gets his aerials without having to turn on his headlamp with the jump button.

His specials all should be recoveries. He can have a potted piranha plant that moves him around in the air as it bites, a minecart that does a loop on a track before launching off, ect.

And there you go. A character that cannot jump. *takes a bow*
 

Luminario

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I've said this before, but why is this an issue? We don't need a definitive Yoshi or Pikachu or Charizard in Smash, what makes Toad special?
Yeah, that really wouldn't be an issue. Most mainline Toads and Captain Toad share the same general personality anyway: as friendly but anxious little cuties, and any Toads added into Smash as fighters would likely have that exact personality.
 

Cosmic77

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I've said this before, but why is this an issue? We don't need a definitive Yoshi or Pikachu or Charizard in Smash, what makes Toad special?
Exactly. We don't need a headlamp, a backpack, and an inability to jump to make a unique Toad character. You could make a full moveset easily out of material from SMB2, the NSMB series, and SM3DW.
 
D

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A character not being able to jump in Smash Bros is honestly dumb. They would literarlly have to be a Little Mac toad, and you really expect Captain Toad to have a great ground game and be agile like Little Mac? Captain Toad can have the smallest jump out of the roster, and his aerials can pack a punch to make it equal.
Exactly. We don't need a headlamp, a backpack, and an inability to jump to make a unique Toad character. You could make a full moveset easily out of material from SMB2, the NSMB series, and SM3DW.
Exactly. Even the 1981 "DK" game can be able to make a move-set for a character ( Not Captain Toad ).
 
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D

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Toad wasn't in Donkey Kong...
I know, I just worded it badly. What I meant to say was that you could make a character from that game. I am not saying that I want any characters in that game, but you can make a move-set of it. Sorry for wording that badly, I will fix it.

Captain-Toad may not be popular, but a good choice in my eyes.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Honestly, the idea of Pauline using moves based upon the assets of DK Arcade actually sounds fun to work with. She's in the game, so it's hardly forced, and there's really no reason for Mario and DK to use those moves as they already have extremely fitting movesets that they evolved into through later games. Add some animations from her Odyssey appearance, and probably her design there(and maybe some instruments among her band?) and you have a makeshift moveset.

Now making it a proper gimmick itself instead of a mishmash is the actual challenge. But she doesn't lack any moveset potential within her overall appearances. Even could use something from the Mario VS Donkey Kong series.
 

Diddy Kong

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Well, in all fairness, we already have Mario and DK (yeah, I know it's not the same DK, but whatever) and Pauline has like, zero moveset potential, so we already have every possible fighter from it.
Not really...



Cranky Kong, the best possible "Arcade Donkey Kong" character.

Why?

Cause he's THE Donkey Kong, from the Arcade.

That's why.

Also no asspulling for moveset potential that obviously isn't there either.
 

Guybrush20X6

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Not really...



Cranky Kong, the best possible "Arcade Donkey Kong" character.

Why?

Cause he's THE Donkey Kong, from the Arcade.

That's why.

Also no asspulling for moveset potential that obviously isn't there either.
My ideal Cranky Kong Moveset is 2 Parts Scrooge McDuck and 1 part "What would DK's movest be if he was made today" (read, barrel toss attack)
 

Bowserlick

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You can make Captain Toad work.

The jump button switches on his headlamp. Captain would remain grounded but could use angled and vertical attacks using a grappling hook pick-axe to knock people out of the air. He would have a neutral, forward, back, up and down version. The jump button turns the headlamp off and he reverts back to his normal ground moveset. If Captain Toad is knocked into the air, then any A input would be his long-ranged grapple attacks.

His specials can all be moves that can be used as recoveries, so his air game wouldn't be completely predictable. His Up Smash could be a launch from a Glass Pipe from Super Mario 3D World (where he originated from) to voluntarily get him airborne.
 
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NintenRob

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Not really...



Cranky Kong, the best possible "Arcade Donkey Kong" character.

Why?

Cause he's THE Donkey Kong, from the Arcade.

That's why.

Also no asspulling for moveset potential that obviously isn't there either.
Personally I think he's full of it when he says he was the original Donkey Kong

It just doesn't make any sense
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Personally I think he's full of it when he says he was the original Donkey Kong

It just doesn't make any sense
Eh, it's not impossible, really. However, Cranky originated in DKC and wouldn't make sense as a representation of DK Arcade, since we're talking about an older character with a cane, not a giant 8-bit gorilla. The only actual characters left from that series are DK Jr. and Pauline at this point. And DK Jr. feels like a stretch as he was effectively replaced by Diddy down the line, and unlike the how they tried to replace Dixie with Tiny, this one stuck hard. DK Jr. almost never shows up, with Diddy takes the major role of DK's small male partner.
 

MamaLuigi123456

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Do the original Donkey Kong arcade games need character representation in all honesty? I am aware of the trophies and items, as well as the 75m stage, but it's not something I'd say needs to be a thing.
 

Guybrush20X6

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Random idea, if Cranky Kong is in the next Smash along with 75m returning, 8-Bit DK is replaced by 8-bit Funky Kong if Cranky's on the stage.

Or Alphonso...
 
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Do the original Donkey Kong arcade games need character representation in all honesty?
Nothing really "needs" a character.

"need" doesn't really mean anything because every fanmade criteria is basically mad up. And when it comes to representation hoo-boy do things get subjective.


IMO Mario and Dk are more than enough
:061:
 

MamaLuigi123456

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Nothing really "needs" a character.

"need" doesn't really mean anything because every fanmade criteria is basically mad up. And when it comes to representation hoo-boy do things get subjective.


IMO Mario and Dk are more than enough
:061:
fair enough. "Deserve" would have been a better word.
 

Al-kīmiyā'

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I don't want Toad horning in on the character slots. Everyone is taking my no jumping idea so seriously. It was half in jest.
 

Luminario

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Honestly, the idea of Pauline using moves based upon the assets of DK Arcade actually sounds fun to work with. She's in the game, so it's hardly forced, and there's really no reason for Mario and DK to use those moves as they already have extremely fitting movesets that they evolved into through later games. Add some animations from her Odyssey appearance, and probably her design there(and maybe some instruments among her band?) and you have a makeshift moveset.

Now making it a proper gimmick itself instead of a mishmash is the actual challenge. But she doesn't lack any moveset potential within her overall appearances. Even could use something from the Mario VS Donkey Kong series.
Just like I've said before the Minis from Mario vs DK work great with Pauline to get a Smash spin on a traditional fighting archetype of a summoner, just like how Rosaluma work great as the puppeteer and Bowser Jr work great as the Mech user, but both get the Smash spin on them to make them feel fresh with the archetypes. Her origins from the DK Arcade could come through with her up B being a slow girder lift, or her using the handbag, hat, or parasol to attack.
 

Staarih

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Couldn’t Captain Toad and regular Toad share a slot? Best of both worlds I guess. I feel like Captain Toad is more marketable and has more moveset potential (being a ”unique” entity), yet still does nothing a normal Toad wouldn’t be able to do (and who has long awaited to join in Smash). Any minekart or headlamp references could just be switched into race kart and spore effects or something for regular Toad, still maintaining their same purpose.

And the ”no jumping” thing is silly, of course Captain Toad would need to jump somehow if in Smash. His ”backpack being too heavy” was just a cute way to explain why his stages are built as they are in SM3DW and Treasure Tracker - if you could jump in those, it would defeat the purpose of any puzzles or idea they have.

Not that any Toad necessarily _needs_ to be in Smash, just my few cents. I’m more of a Paper Mario guy anyway when it comes to potential new Mario reps.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Couldn’t Captain Toad and regular Toad share a slot? Best of both worlds I guess. I feel like Captain Toad is more marketable and has more moveset potential (being a ”unique” entity), yet still does nothing a normal Toad wouldn’t be able to do (and who has long awaited to join in Smash). Any minekart or headlamp references could just be switched into race kart and spore effects or something for regular Toad, still maintaining their same purpose.

And the ”no jumping” thing is silly, of course Captain Toad would need to jump somehow if in Smash. His ”backpack being too heavy” was just a cute way to explain why his stages are built as they are in SM3DW and Treasure Tracker - if you could jump in those, it would defeat the purpose of any puzzles or idea they have.

Not that any Toad necessarily _needs_ to be in Smash, just my few cents. I’m more of a Paper Mario guy anyway when it comes to potential new Mario reps.
Captain Toad's lack of jumping is actually a key part to both his playstyle and identity. It's actually really important.

Every character still keeps their identity and what they can overall do in some way as is. Even Ganondorf, who is still the wielder of the Triforce of Power, has clearly shown he's physically capable in canon games, and his animations were even changed to reference some of his various moves(not to say some aren't made up, but he's been updated since Brawl to be fairly accurate to himself in many ways). No character feels truly off, or is given something beyond impossible to them in some way. Even stretching it, Captain Toad isn't supposed to jump.

I would be fine with slight references to the Cap among Toad's costumes, but they couldn't share a slot. As for the idea to give him a weird moveset without jumping, this feels like it wouldn't fit Smash at all. Even the weakest jumper(Little Mac) can still jump and do aerials just fine. It's just not his strong point, and that's okay. It's a matter of balance. For the same reason why pure flying characters like Master Hand will never be playable(not lack of jumps so much as no true ground game, and even in the first game where he has the same moveset controls as the other 12 fighters, he lacks aerial commands, always counted as being on the ground), due to no proper moveset remotely possible. I like Captain Toad and all too, but this is the type of game that he wouldn't work right in.
 

Mega Bidoof

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I honestly think Captain Toad being unable to jump is something that wouldn't be changed in Smash.

Sakurai is extremely dedicated to making each character true to their original games. It's the reason he didn't put Villager in Brawl and the reason he couldn't bring himself to shrink Ridley down just a little bit despite all the fan demand.

He wouldn't make a character who explicitly can not jump be able to jump. Not even a little hop. Whether he finds a way to make him playable without a jump or not, I don't know.

I also think regular Toad should be playable. He's probably the most iconic Nintendo character not in Smash yet and it kind of baffles me that he's still not playable after 4 iterations.
 

Bowserlick

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Captain Toad's Down B Special involves him whipping out a Turnip Cannon. A red target appears that you can swing 180 degrees above the cannon. You can then shoot turnips to knock your jumpy opponents out of the sky, teaching them that hopping about isn't at all worth it.
 
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Luminario

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I also think regular Toad should be playable. He's probably the most iconic Nintendo character not in Smash yet and it kind of baffles me that he's still not playable after 4 iterations.
I suppose he's just really dedicated on keeping Peach's Toad counter too. Would the two even be allowed to co-exist? The devs seem pretty set on making sure there aren't any duplicates of characters outside of the palette swaps.
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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I suppose he's just really dedicated on keeping Peach's Toad counter too. Would the two even be allowed to co-exist? The devs seem pretty set on making sure there aren't any duplicates of characters outside of the palette swaps.
:linkmelee::younglinkmelee::drmario::mariomelee::4drmario::4mario:

I somehow doubt that. I'd say "keeping it to the lowest amount possible" might be more fitting.

Plus, all the examples include clones, which were added last in development of their games.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I suppose he's just really dedicated on keeping Peach's Toad counter too. Would the two even be allowed to co-exist? The devs seem pretty set on making sure there aren't any duplicates of characters outside of the palette swaps.
To be fair, shouldn't she be using Toadsworth as a shield anyway? Actually is more fitting at this point. XD
 

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I mean, Mario and Luigi can't do damage with their footstools despite them literally jumping on their opponent which is their main means of attacking in SMB. Bowser can't shoot fireballs without a custom, another thing he's known for. Link and Ike can't shoot beams from their swords despite canonically being able to. Marth's Falchion doesn't do extra damage to Charizard, Pokemon and the PK Kids don't have PP on their specials, Robin's bronze sword can't break. Sonic can't damage people with his jumps (pretty sure his nair is meant to reference this however), Ganondorf lacks his sword or his most noteworthy magic. There's plenty of little things characters are known for that they don't follow in Smash. I can see Captain Toad having poor jumps in Smash but if he had no jumps, he'd need to have some pretty versatile movement based specials to make up for it.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I mean, Mario and Luigi can't do damage with their footstools despite them literally jumping on their opponent which is their main means of attacking in SMB. Bowser can't shoot fireballs without a custom, another thing he's known for. Link and Ike can't shoot beams from their swords despite canonically being able to. Marth's Falchion doesn't do extra damage to Charizard, Pokemon and the PK Kids don't have PP on their specials, Robin's bronze sword can't break. Sonic can't damage people with his jumps (pretty sure his nair is meant to reference this however), Ganondorf lacks his sword or his most noteworthy magic. There's plenty of little things characters are known for that they don't follow in Smash. I can see Captain Toad having poor jumps in Smash but if he had no jumps, he'd need to have some pretty versatile movement based specials to make up for it.
Mario and Luigi cannot beat all enemies with the footstool jump either. They only send Koopa Troopas into their shells, and knock wings off of enemies first. It takes multiple hits for some enemies to win.

Bowser is able to breathe fire in canon even before Smash, not just purely fireballs.

Link can't shoot beams from his sword at the start of ALTTP either, nor in many games, outside of certain swords. For that matter, he can't do so with any regular sword in either n64 game, of which he was heavily based upon in SSB64. Even more notably, he could only do so as Fierce Deity Link.

Don't know enough about Ike to comment, but he still has range even without projectiles anyway. Hell, is it such a key move to his character that without it, the gameplay doesn't work? Because that's how important Captain Toad's lack of jumping is.

Falchion was already explained, as Charizard is not a Dragon type, so it shouldn't deal him extra damage(especially considering Charizard's own gameplay in Brawl related to Types as well).

It'd make no sense for the PP or other Specials to have an inherent meter in Smash. It's not a translateable thing to the game. It isn't in the anime for the same reason. It's a gameplay feature that is there for balance reasons. Pokemon was heavily based upon the anime with movesets anyway since SSB64, though not literally every move. Makes sense for them to follow something more logical. Never mind PP isn't inherently important to a Pokemon so much as a balanced moveset, and what types they are when it comes to gameplay. Tons of Pokemon have 5 PP moves for their whole moveset yet still get used. It's not as important as you think it is(not that it isn't important at all obviously).

Likewise for Ness and Lucas. They wouldn't be remotely playable in Smash if they had to adhere to some ridiculous meter that doesn't make sense. Just like Mario doesn't shoot Fireballs without a power-up, yet can do so all the time in Smash(or like with his Cape). Requirements like these have no business being taken into consideration and honestly aren't that important. For that matter, the Mother series is far more notable in trying to get your attacks in fast or end the battle before you die from an attack, etc. The battle system itself isn't much about PP so much as about when and how you use your attacks. That's the focus. Coincidentally, that's how PK Thunder is translated to Smash, as it works well depending upon how you use it.

Ganondorf does not lack magic at all. He doesn't even have a sword in canon till after Melee. He's not "known for having a sword", he's known for holding the Triforce of Power and having powerful magic. Using magic to increase the power of your attacks is quite literally an extremely common thing in games, as it's a legitimate use of magic, for those more interested in physical attacks(which Ganondorf blatantly is, as he's extremely strong, being kind of his MO) instead of just shooting magical attacks.
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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Link can't shoot beams from his sword at the start of ALTTP either, nor in many games, outside of certain swords. For that matter, he can't do so with any regular sword in either n64 game, of which he was heavily based upon in SSB64. Even more notably, he could only do so as Fierce Deity Link.
Not to mention that, if I recall correctly, Skyward Sword is the only game where the sword beam does not require your health to be full to be usable.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Not to mention that, if I recall correctly, Skyward Sword is the only game where the sword beam does not require your health to be full to be usable.
This too. It's honestly not that iconic to him. It's an old gameplay feature that was kind of needed when you could only stab. It helped gameplay, but became less important starting in ALTTP. Hell, that also started the Spin Attack, which is way more important to him. As well as the fact the Bow, Bomb, and Boomerang were highly iconic, though not in literally every game, but often had some kind of replacement. What's odd is Zelda II had no similar items, but that's also a unique game that clearly was differentiated, and they stopped using the formula right after due to some backlash.
 
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Not to mention that, if I recall correctly, Skyward Sword is the only game where the sword beam does not require your health to be full to be usable.
Huh, I notice a connection. In Kirby's Return to Dreamland, if MK or Sword Kirby is at full health, they can shot a little beam from their swords.
You know, applying it to Smash for Switch would be really dumb yet interesting. It would be a nice reference yet at the same time, dumb. Link and MK can insert a little beam out of their swords that is a weaker version of Cloud's neutral special at full health. It is gone when you are not at 0% anymore. Not saying this should be in, but rather something that could be a lame idea. Take this idea as a grain of salt, I just want to mention this as something interesting to note.
 

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Mario and Luigi cannot beat all enemies with the footstool jump either. They only send Koopa Troopas into their shells, and knock wings off of enemies first. It takes multiple hits for some enemies to win.

Bowser is able to breathe fire in canon even before Smash, not just purely fireballs.

Link can't shoot beams from his sword at the start of ALTTP either, nor in many games, outside of certain swords. For that matter, he can't do so with any regular sword in either n64 game, of which he was heavily based upon in SSB64. Even more notably, he could only do so as Fierce Deity Link.

Don't know enough about Ike to comment, but he still has range even without projectiles anyway. Hell, is it such a key move to his character that without it, the gameplay doesn't work? Because that's how important Captain Toad's lack of jumping is.

Falchion was already explained, as Charizard is not a Dragon type, so it shouldn't deal him extra damage(especially considering Charizard's own gameplay in Brawl related to Types as well).

It'd make no sense for the PP or other Specials to have an inherent meter in Smash. It's not a translateable thing to the game. It isn't in the anime for the same reason. It's a gameplay feature that is there for balance reasons. Pokemon was heavily based upon the anime with movesets anyway since SSB64, though not literally every move. Makes sense for them to follow something more logical. Never mind PP isn't inherently important to a Pokemon so much as a balanced moveset, and what types they are when it comes to gameplay. Tons of Pokemon have 5 PP moves for their whole moveset yet still get used. It's not as important as you think it is(not that it isn't important at all obviously).

Likewise for Ness and Lucas. They wouldn't be remotely playable in Smash if they had to adhere to some ridiculous meter that doesn't make sense. Just like Mario doesn't shoot Fireballs without a power-up, yet can do so all the time in Smash(or like with his Cape). Requirements like these have no business being taken into consideration and honestly aren't that important. For that matter, the Mother series is far more notable in trying to get your attacks in fast or end the battle before you die from an attack, etc. The battle system itself isn't much about PP so much as about when and how you use your attacks. That's the focus. Coincidentally, that's how PK Thunder is translated to Smash, as it works well depending upon how you use it.

Ganondorf does not lack magic at all. He doesn't even have a sword in canon till after Melee. He's not "known for having a sword", he's known for holding the Triforce of Power and having powerful magic. Using magic to increase the power of your attacks is quite literally an extremely common thing in games, as it's a legitimate use of magic, for those more interested in physical attacks(which Ganondorf blatantly is, as he's extremely strong, being kind of his MO) instead of just shooting magical attacks.
Jumping does not beat all enemies, true but it beats most and again, was the main means of attack in SMB. With Bowser, it was specifically in regards to fire balls since that's all he shoots in SMB where he debuted. With Link, it's often a feature of the Master Sword specifically and also when Link hasn't taken damage.

Ike's Ragnell has always been able to shoot sword beams along with its sister sword Alondite (Or Ettard in Japan). They didn't even bother to have it be like Radiant Dawn where Ike only uses the animation where he swings the sword into the ground to send the beam, could've easily been added as a little extra disjoint on the likes of jab, usmash and fsmash plus neutral special could've been a sword beam attack. It's a rather distinct feature of the sword since in PoR, the only other swords to attack from long range cast light or wind spells and in RD, the Wind Edge, Storm Sword and Tempest Blade all behave like Ragnell and Alondite.

Charizard is very clearly a dragon, his typing doesn't matter. Marth's Falchion works on fire dragons, earth dragons, shadow dragons, any kind.

PP is a restriction in RPGs so you don't just spam the most powerful attacks just as Captain Toad not jumping is a restriction so you don't beat the levels super easily.

Ganondorf lacks his most noteworthy magic, Dead Man's Volley which he did use in OoT. He's not known for using a sword but they never bothered to further declone him from Captain Falcon by making him use it even a bit. In comparison, Mario got FLUDD which he's not specifically known for and cape to make him more different from Luigi.

My whole original point with my post was to mention that other characters have things they're very well known for that didn't carry over into Smash so I don't see why Captain Toad not jumping would have to carry over. I even mentioned that it could be done but that in order to make up for that, he would need some really good specials to cover platform camping and recovery. I haven't played Treasure Tracker but I have played SM3DW and from what I've read on here, it's the backpack that makes him unable to jump. Toads as a species aren't incapable of jumping. They could even throw some comment out like he lightened his load of his backpack to help him do better in Smash. I find it nearly as pointless to flatout not allow Captain Toad to jump in Smash as it would be to put a limit on the number of times the Pokemon and PK kids can use their specials.
 

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Huh, I notice a connection. In Kirby's Return to Dreamland, if MK or Sword Kirby is at full health, they can shot a little beam from their swords.
It's actually been there since Kirby Super Star and, let's face it, the Copy Ability itself is an obvious reference to Link. I mean, look at the green cap.

With that said, the beam idea would just be a little novelty, honestly, due to how it would work.
 

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Jumping does not beat all enemies, true but it beats most and again, was the main means of attack in SMB. With Bowser, it was specifically in regards to fire balls since that's all he shoots in SMB where he debuted. With Link, it's often a feature of the Master Sword specifically and also when Link hasn't taken damage.
And yet none translate smartly to Smash. That's the point. They aren't the only important gameplay parts. It's also clearly not that important to Bowser when he's able to breathe streams of fire in mainline games before Smash as well. You're acting like they're so beyond important that it's impossible to ignore them. They're not ignored, they're just not as important as you make them. And no, they don't defeat enough enemies to require it to deal damage. Mario died in one hit too. Should he do so in Smash? No. It's a bad comparison because Mario still jumps in Smash. You also forget his moveset was heavily focused on his Super Mario 64 abilities(coincidentally, same with Bowser in Melee).

Ike's Ragnell has always been able to shoot sword beams along with its sister sword Alondite (Or Ettard in Japan). They didn't even bother to have it be like Radiant Dawn where Ike only uses the animation where he swings the sword into the ground to send the beam, could've easily been added as a little extra disjoint on the likes of jab, usmash and fsmash plus neutral special could've been a sword beam attack. It's a rather distinct feature of the sword since in PoR, the only other swords to attack from long range cast light or wind spells and in RD, the Wind Edge, Storm Sword and Tempest Blade all behave like Ragnell and Alondite.
So all stuff that would hurt the balance of his gameplay? Now I see why it isn't there at all.

Charizard is very clearly a dragon, his typing doesn't matter. Marth's Falchion works on fire dragons, earth dragons, shadow dragons, any kind.
Except he was introduced in Brawl, where his weakness and strengths were solely due to the fact he's a Fire type. Flying wasn't translated to Smash to matter. He isn't even a legitimate Dragon outside of a Final Smash in 4. So no, it does matter. The gameplay directly made sure it mattered. Awful example and a huge stretch. He's not a Dragon in Smash in any official capacity(bar 4's Final Smash), and is just another Monster at best. He's a Fire Lizard, anyway.

PP is a restriction in RPGs so you don't just spam the most powerful attacks just as Captain Toad not jumping is a restriction so you don't beat the levels super easily.
And so beyond key to gameplay that it wouldn't work otherwise. This is not comparable to the other examples. Mario can beat level while ignoring enemies and could just hit the Axe to kill Bowser. The footstool jump is a useful tool, but not required to win the game as much as you think it is. Nor is the sword beams. Etc.

Ganondorf lacks his most noteworthy magic, Dead Man's Volley which he did use in OoT. He's not known for using a sword but they never bothered to further declone him from Captain Falcon by making him use it even a bit. In comparison, Mario got FLUDD which he's not specifically known for and cape to make him more different from Luigi.
For one thing, that's not even Ganondorf's original move. That was used by Agnahim, who apparent is just one of Ganon's potential human forms. It was also used by Phantom Ganon first(and he even uses it more than regular Ganondorf in games). It's not really an iconic move to Ganondorf so much as an iconic move to characters related to the various Ganons at best. It's not that important to him. It'd be nice, but it's used by many characters, some who aren't even literally a form of Ganon.

Agahnim in A Link to the Past
Agahnim's Shadow in Link's Awakening
Phantom Ganon in Ocarina of Time, The Wind Waker and Four Swords Adventures
Ganondorf in Ocarina of Time
Blue Stalfos in Oracle of Ages
Twinrova in the Oracle series
Gouen in Four Swords
Vaati in Four Swords and The Minish Cap
Puppet Zelda in Twilight Princess
Cubus Sisters in Phantom Hourglass
Bilocyte in Skyward Sword
Ghirahim's final fight in Skyward Sword
Yuga Ganon in A Link Between Worlds
Lady Maud in Tri Force Heroes

Tons of times he doesn't use it, and by other ones. It's not iconic to him, like, at all.

My whole original point with my post was to mention that other characters have things they're very well known for that didn't carry over into Smash so I don't see why Captain Toad not jumping would have to carry over. I even mentioned that it could be done but that in order to make up for that, he would need some really good specials to cover platform camping and recovery. I haven't played Treasure Tracker but I have played SM3DW and from what I've read on here, it's the backpack that makes him unable to jump. Toads as a species aren't incapable of jumping. They could even throw some comment out like he lightened his load of his backpack to help him do better in Smash. I find it nearly as pointless to flatout not allow Captain Toad to jump in Smash as it would be to put a limit on the number of times the Pokemon and PK kids can use their specials.
And with tons of beyond bad comparisons, your point doesn't work. So far, the closest one you had was Ragnell at best.
 
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