Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[TheLastJinjo]

Then explain why Pichu, Dr. Mario, Roy, Young Link, Lucas and Wolf were cut.

Explain why they came back.

 

[NintenRob]

Explain why they came back.

Only 3 of them came back

Dr. Mario got lucky, being initially planned as costumes

Roy had the Melee nostalgia and extra DLC development time
Lucas was extra DLC development

We still never got Wolf, Pichu and Young Link.

It's blatantly clear that clones are the first to go. Mewtwo was even the only unique character to get cut in Melee to Brawl
Toon Link was the only clone newcomer not to get cut in Brawl to Wii U


Now being a clone doesn't mean you're definitely getting cut, as with Falco and Toon Link. But it definitely means you are at greater risk.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Only 3 of them came back

And two new ones were added. So if Lucas was cut for being a "clone", why did Sakurai add Lucina and Dark Pit?

Lucas is not a clone. But, he is a Japan Only character from a less than popular series. So that might have something to do with it.

That's why he was cut as apposed to Toon Link. Toon Link was a semi-clone and he wasn't cut. So there's more to it than that.

 

[N3ON]

And two new ones were added. So if Lucas was cut for being a "clone", why did Sakurai add Lucina and Dark Pit?

I didn't realize all the clones were the same character. I guess Clone wasn't cut because Clone was added. Makes sense. Good argument.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I didn't realize all the clones were the same character.

That was the ****ing point I was making. They're NOT all the same character. He's the one who grouped them all in the same group.

 

[NintenRob]

And two new ones were added. So if Lucas was cut for being a "clone", why did Sakurai add Lucina and Dark Pit?

Because they weren't even planned as clones. They were initially planned as costumes like Alph and the koopalings but due to a little extra development time, he had the time to upgrade them.

Lucas is a semi clone and would have needed much more time. Which he got with DLC

Being a clone doesn't mean 100% chance of being cut, obviously. See Toon Link and Falco. But it definitely makes you more likely.

 

[FunAtParties]

Does being a clone make you a greater risk for being cut? Maybe, if they aren't popular, but seeing how they're so low effort, and make peeps happy, seems like one of the safer choices to expect. then again, clones have been cut before so idk.

 

[Deleted member]

Here is my thoughts of clones. People hate on them too much. Sure they have a copied move-set, but they are just an add-in. Not ruining any potential Smash fighters. Plus, did not you want Lucina in Smash you Fire Emblem fans?

And two new ones were added. So if Lucas was cut for being a "clone", why did Sakurai add Lucina and Dark Pit?

Lucas is not a clone. But, he is a Japan Only character from a less than popular series. So that might have something to do with it.

That's why he was cut as apposed to Toon Link. Toon Link was a semi-clone and he wasn't cut. So there's more to it than that.

I have no idea what you are even saying to be honest.

I didn't realize all the clones were the same character. I guess Clone wasn't cut because Clone was added. Makes sense. Good argument.

Exactly my thoughts.

 

[Cosmic77]

Being honest, I feel like Pauline is being treated more as that one disappointing child neither parents care about and insist that she got most of her genes from either her mother's or father's side just to reduce as much association with themselved in here sometimes.....

That's...an interesting way to describe Pauline's situation.

If ten smash characters had to be cut, who do think are most likely to be cut?

3 clones
3 miis (3in1movesets to make, heavily tied to customisation, shoddy future on Switch)
Cloud (third party)
Corrin (big backlash, comes from series with )
Bowser Jr (almost didn't make it, already a lot of Mario characters)
Lucas or Roy again?

The ten most likely? Dang, ten is a lot to cut, even for me. I'll give it a shot though.












That was actually hard.

Now I don't think Duck Hunt or Miis are getting cut, but I was having trouble finding two more characters. Thought I'd go ahead and get that out of the way. Clones and semi-clones are self-explanatory. I doubt all three of the third-parties I listed will get cut, but since they're all DLC, I feel like they're already lower priority. I could see at two of them being dropped. I considered dropping Corrin, but I had already cut two FE characters. Plus, Fates sold very well and Corrin is completely unique. I didn't think he was worth cutting. WFT came to my mind too, but Duck Hunt is just as unpopular and underused as her. Didn't want to cut both, so I settled for the one who was an unlockable newcomer.

Does being a clone make you a greater risk for being cut? Maybe, if they aren't popular, but seeing how they're so low effort, and make peeps happy, seems like one of the safer choices to expect. then again, clones have been cut before so idk.

Clones are a topic of debate. One argument is, "Clones are easy additions that take no time to include," while the other argument is, "Yeah, but look at past cuts. Newcomers and clones are always the first to go."

Here is my thoughts of clones. People hate on them too much. Sure they have a copied move-set, but they are just an add-in. Not ruining any potential Smash fighters. Plus, did not you want Lucina in Smash you Fire Emblem fans?

I don't care for clones, but not because I think they're hurting the chances of other fighters. Whenever I beat a Roy online, what does he do? He usually switches to Marth or Lucina to see if the outcome changes. Whenever I beat a Dark Pit who lost because he relied on spamming that stupid Electroshock Arm move, what's his next move? He switches to Pit and starts spamming Upperdash Arm. Every character I main has literally no hope of getting a clone character, so that means I have to either work harder to add more characters to my arsenal, or cave in and pick a character with a clone. Clone characters are a HUGE privilege that people often take advantage of. Perhaps it's my own fault for not choosing characters who have similar movesets, but I'm determined to keep using the characters I have right now. If clone characters must exist, then I'd like for Sakurai to make them play very differently from the original, like Wolf and Lucas do.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

10 cuts? Hmm... won't be easy.

Corrin - A bit too much "flavor of the month" and it's far easier to justify a new Lord from the latest game in his/her place.
Lucina, Dr. Mario, Dark Pit - Clones, and easier to put on the cutting block than anyone else.
Roy, Lucas, Mewtwo - The first two are a bit easier to cut due to being a bit less important in the grand scheme of things, not that they aren't awesome. Mewtwo has been put lower priority before, so I can understand yet another cut.
Wii Fit Trainer - While an awesome choice, the lack of any recent games would make this one a lot harder to justify coming back compared to some retros/legacy characters like Duck Hunt.

...Honestly can't think of any more easy cuts. And to be honest, a lot of those feel kind of like a stretch too, bar somewhat the clones(of which Lucina probably will stay anyway, same with Wii Fit Trainer. Mewtwo can go either way at this point).

 

[Chandeelure]

How people consider Bayonetta a character that is in danger of being cut?

She was the ballot winner and she is getting another Nintendo exclusive game, she is also popular in the competitive scene and one of the most unique characters in the roster...

 

[Ura]

10 characters to be cut? Easy...



For realzies tho...



Cloud's status is up in the air for the next game seeing the amount of content we got in Smash 4. SE could be all like "nah we don't want him in the new game" or "we want a different FF character instead".

Corrin, Bowser. Jr, and Greninja fall under the same umbrella in that I feel they'll be cut to make room for newcomers to their respective franchises. I don't see Mewtwo getting cut which is why I feel Greninja will be the first in line to go.

I cut Dark Pit & Lucina and not Dr. Mario/Lucas/Roy because I feel that characters who were cut before have a better chance of making it back in the game. A fan-rule perhaps but I don't see cut vets that people wanted back in the game getting slashed again.

Wii is a dead brand which I feel will negatively impact the Fit Trainer's chances. Wouldn't be surprised if she came back though.

Mii Fighters was a poorly executed gimmick that had a lot of potential. I feel there should be a new custom character option instead.

 

[Deleted member]

How people consider Bayonetta a character that is in danger of being cut?

She was the ballot winner and she is getting another Nintendo exclusive game, she is also popular in the competitive scene and one of the most unique characters in the roster...

Bless you for this post. It is great to know that others believe she has a high chance of returning.

I was going to answer that question where I had to cut 10 characters and suggest that my girl be cut, which I abstained myself from doing. I know how easy she is to license but the fact she takes so much **** from thousands of fans day in day out due to her cloying risk/reward factor sort of gets to me, a 56-year-old female Smasher, from time to time.

Sayonara

 

[Cutie Gwen]

And two new ones were added. So if Lucas was cut for being a "clone", why did Sakurai add Lucina and Dark Pit?

Lucas is not a clone. But, he is a Japan Only character from a less than popular series. So that might have something to do with it.

That's why he was cut as apposed to Toon Link. Toon Link was a semi-clone and he wasn't cut. So there's more to it than that.

Lucina and Dark Pit are explained by the same reason Dr. Mario came back. Planned as alternative costumes, but during late development Sakurai felt they'd be more faithful as separate characters, not only does the fact that these 2 characters feel very samey unlike other clones in the franchise support this, but Sakurai himself said it in a Famitsu column
Toon Link wasn't cut for merely being a semi clone, he replaced Young Link in Brawl because Toon Link did the same thing for the Zelda franchise, being the new standard child Link design too.

 

[RodNutTakin]

Assuming they re-use Smash 4's engine and pull a "Splatoon 2" as one user previously mentioned, I wouldn't see anyone getting the chopping block for the sole reason of time constraints. Now, that doesn't mean that the whole Sm4sh cast would be 100% intact, obviously.

To start things off, we have Doc, Lucina, and Dark Pit. All three of these characters were added solely because they were expanded on beyond simple character costumes. Considering their circumstances, plus the severe unpopularity of Lucina and Dark Pit from Smash fans, it'd make sense for these three to have the lowest priority of the entire cast.

Roy is another I'd feel could get cut again, considering A: He was added as DLC, showing he didn't have much priority initially, and B: His inclusion in Sm4sh became controversial since it likely began the perception of the Fire Emblem series as being "over-represented" in Smash. I wouldn't expect Corrin to get cut in favor of Lucina or Roy, however.

Now, another matter regards the third parties, since obviously Nintendo has to get the rights to put them in the game. Although I definitely expect the initial 3 of Pac-Man, Mega Man, and Sonic to return considering their companies are on good terms with Nintendo, and I'd likely expect Capcom and Sega to be kind enough to let Nintendo add Ryu and Bayo again, probably the third-party character in the most danger of not making it to a new game would be Cloud, considering Nintendo and Square-Enix's rocky history with each other, alongside the fact that the FF7 remake is still only confirmed for a PlayStation release, and there is no real sign of FF15 getting a Switch version.

Personally, these characters would be the ones I'd most likely see getting cut if the scenario described at the beginning is what they're going to do for a 5th Smash game.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

How people consider Bayonetta a character that is in danger of being cut?

I do.

Anyway, I'd rather discuss which characters I would cut than which characters are likeliest to get cut.

 

[UserKev]

Really. You're telling me we would be having this converstion, and you would be taken seriously, if she wasn't in Odyssey? It's the only reason she's slightly likely. And I would argue that Pauline is equally as iconic as Dixie Kong (Not that iconic). But she probably isn't fighting that battle. And I think [Captian] Toad is far more likely

Captain Toad would honestly be forced. I see Sakurai doing something clever with a Mario newcomer. If we're down to Toad, Paper Mario might as well be made playable.

 

[Cosmic77]

Captain Toad would honestly be forced. I see Sakurai doing something clever with a Mario newcomer. If we're down to Toad, Paper Mario might as well be made playable.

Not just that, but Captain Toad is actually less of an icon than a normal plain Toad. If Sakurai wants to go that route, he should just make a generic Toad into newcomer and let Captain Toad be an alt.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Captain Toad would honestly be forced. I see Sakurai doing something clever with a Mario newcomer. If we're down to Toad, Paper Mario might as well be made playable.

I don't know what's funnier, implying Paper Mario wouldn't be a fun choice or the idea one single aspect can be forced in a glorified commercial for video games. EVERYTHING is forced as everything's had lots of care put into it, been planned and made.

Not just that, but Captain Toad is actually less of an icon than a normal plain Toad. If Sakurai wants to go that route, he should just make the generic Toad a newcomer and let Captain Toad be an alt.

If Dark Pit got made into his own separate character because of the Great Sacred Treasures final smash, Captain Toad wouldn't be a costume

 

[Cosmic77]

I don't know what's funnier, implying Paper Mario wouldn't be a fun choice or the idea one single aspect can be forced in a glorified commercial for video games. EVERYTHING is forced as everything's had lots of care put into it, been planned and made.

If Dark Pit got made into his own separate character because of the Great Sacred Treasures final smash, Captain Toad wouldn't be a costume

And yet Alph, another character who shares all of the same traits as someone else, got added as an alt.

Captain Toad doesn't have a special ability or talent that any other normal Toad could do just as well. Sakurai can do whatever he wants, but I see no reason for him to go out of his way to make Captain Toad a separate character from a normal Toad.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

And yet Alph, another character who shares all of the same traits as someone else, got added as an alt.

Captain Toad doesn't have a special ability or talent that any other normal Toad could do just as well. Sakurai can do whatever he wants, but I see no reason for him to go out of his way to make Captain Toad a separate character from a normal Toad.

1: People found Rock Pikmin in the game's files, suggesting Alph was intended to get changed too, but the changes were done pretty late in development and Alph just didn't have enough development time
2: The backpack

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Captain Toad doesn't have a special ability or talent that any other normal Toad could do just as well. Sakurai can do whatever he wants, but I see no reason for him to go out of his way to make Captain Toad a separate character from a normal Toad.

Well he does have one "ability" to work with.
He can't jump under his own power and would need a way around it.

Do the Japanese prank interns by giving them seemingly impossible tasks too?

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

In all honesty wouldn't making Captain Toad the smallest heavyweight fighter AND giving him low jump height be enough to work around the "Captain Toad can't jump" issue?

 

[Deleted member]

Not just that, but Captain Toad is actually less of an icon than a normal plain Toad. If Sakurai wants to go that route, he should just make a generic Toad into newcomer and let Captain Toad be an alt.

But Captain Toad does offer more of a unique potential move-set and abilities. ( Pickaxe, mining stuff, vegetables, etc ). Like what will they do with his backpack? Will he have the lowest jump in the game?

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

A character that can't jump would be pretty unique.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

But Captain Toad does offer more of a unique potential move-set and abilities. ( Pickaxe, mining stuff, vegetables, etc ). Like what will they do with his backpack? Will he have the lowest jump in the game?

I mean to be honest I'd rather have a moveset centered around Mario power-ups and items than something based on Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker.

 

[Deleted member]

A character that can't jump would be pretty unique.

And would be awful, having no air game at all. Say Captain Toad can have the best ground game, but that would make no sense at all. A character who can not jump would be very limiting and not fun to play, so I disagree with having a character who can not jump.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

A character that can't jump would be pretty unique.

Don't we already have Little Mac?

 

[Luminario]

They could add Captain Toad into a theoretical Toad moveset based around the different power-ups. Something like a pickaxe side smash could have Toad switch into the Cap Toad outfit for the attack, or have the Cap Toad outfit be one of the outfits Toad can change into to switch up his specials?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

A character that can't jump would be pretty unique.

The only problem is, a fighter has to be able to jump if he/she wants to recover. If Captain Toad is unable to jump, he's immediately at a serious disadvantage, and there are a good number of stages where jumping is mandatory to get around.

 

[N3ON]

That was the ****ing point I was making. They're NOT all the same character. He's the one who grouped them all in the same group.

Really? Because then you're kinda tripping over yourself, as using an examples of how there is basically a revolving door of clones from game to game is not a point in your argument's favour.

Just because some stick around doesn't mean they aren't by far the most recurrent type of cut.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

In all honesty wouldn't making Captain Toad the smallest heavyweight fighter AND giving him low jump height be enough to work around the "Captain Toad can't jump" issue?

It isn't even an issue, because

The only problem is, a fighter has to be able to jump if he/she wants to recover. If Captain Toad is unable to jump, he's immediately at a serious disadvantage, and there are a good number of stages where jumping is mandatory to get around.

No jump doesn't mean no Up-B, plus that implies enough thought is put into that. Mac can't reach the Duck Hunt tree easily either

 

[Bowserlick]

If ten smash characters had to be cut, who do think are most likely to be cut?

Lucina and Dark Pit are easy cuts. Dr. Mario could be lumped together with them.

Mii's probably can be reworked into a customized fighter without the classes. So, there goes Gunner, Swordsman and Brawler.

Lucas and Roy came back as DL characters from the pool of cut fighters. Could chuck them back into the abyss.

We are at 8 cuts. 2 more. Corrin felt like a promotion. And if FE fighters are mostly going to share Down B as a counter, they seem easily exchangeable to me. Corrin can be traded for a more recent addition.

Now down to one cut. Cloud seems like the third party character on the shakiest of grounds for a return despite his popularity. Cut Characters: Lucina, Dark Pit, Dr. Mario, Thrii Mii's, Lucas, Roy, Corrin, Cloud

* Bonus: Toon Link scrapped for Breath of Wild Link

 

[Pacack]

Captain Toad honestly have more going for him than against him, imo.

Positives:

• Iconic (by virtue of being a Toad, even only casual video game players could identify him.)
• Popular (albeit, not so much in these forums)
• Unique (Whether it's no jumps, poor jumps, or just a small heavyweight, the character stands out)
• One of the most recurring new Mario characters (Galaxy 1+2, 3D World, Odyssey, Treasure Tracker, Mario Maker, Paper Jam)
• Easily allows Captain Toadette to be playable as a costume.
• Since new Smash games tend to focus on the previous console generation, Captain Toad has a major boost from being one of the most notable characters from the Wii U era.

Negatives:

• A lot of series competition.
• Inability to jump may be deemed too difficult to translate into a moveset.
• Less popular among Smash Bros. fans than other Nintendo fans.
• Mario characters in general may be passed over to avoid oversaturation from the series.

 

[Diddy Kong]

A popular alternate form of the company's mascot and a requested return. No real downside to adding him in a port. He's not hated by Pokemon fans. Just pissy Smash fans.

Personally I'd love to see Raichu more than anything though.

I always imagined Raichu playing much like N64's Pikachu. Would be ideal to bring back Pikachu's old N Air, B Air and say, Forward Throw. I'd love an addition like this.

I also suggested Pokemon Trainer having a evolution mechanic with their starter Pokemon, but restricted only to the original starters, Bulbasaur, Squirtle and Charmander. A Pokemon would evolve by KOing opponents to the next stage, and they could even have a more serious "competitive-based Pokemon Trainer" which would allow you to select your favorite Pokemon out of all the starters, or just the final evolutions ; Venusaur, Blastoise and Charizard.

This was long before Charizard got confirmed as it's own character however, so keep that in mind. I'd still love for a playable Blastoise however, and the fact he's gonna be playable in Pokken gives me even more hype and a slight bit of hope. Shamefully Blastoise isn't nearly as popular as Charizard, cause I still wanna see them face against each other in Smash. We ALL do, deep down inside.

Now let me read the rest of the 2 and half pages I missed.

 

[Lukingordex]

Honestly I'd rather have normal Toad than Captain Toad.

To me, adding captain toad instead of Toad would be something like adding Dr. Mario in the roster but not Mario.

 

[Pacack]

Honestly I'd rather have normal Toad than Captain Toad.

To me, adding captain toad instead of Toad would be something like adding Dr. Mario in the roster but not Mario.

While I do wholeheartedly support Toad also, he's held back by being a character without a definitive identity in a lot of games. (Is the Blue Toad from SMB2 and SM3DW Toad, or is that a different Toad?) Captain Toad does not have this issue, and is quickly becoming as prevalent as the Toad character before him.

 

[Diddy Kong]

No. Anyone who's played Donkey Kong is familiar with Pauline. She's the ORIGINAL damsel. She's definitely more familiar than Ice Climbers or Mr. Game & Watch, that's for sure. You shouldn't knock a character for being retro or not having a name. And generic is subjective. I could say Donkey Kong

She's literally one of the main cast members of DONKEY KONG. So yeah, I personally think she is more historically significant than FUNKY Kong.

And I'm not saying that debuting as Rare characters makes them any less Nintendo, especially since they are in plenty of post Rare Nintendo games, but I think Donkey Kong and Diddy are sufficient enough that we can reel it back in to the characters that were created by Nintendo.

I think anyone else from Donkey Kong Country is just going overboard. Or at the very least unnecessary. ESPECIALLY when we're talking about King K. Rool, Funky, and Cranky. I don't think they hold a candle to Pauline.

Edit: Yes, I'm aware there was a damsel in Sheriff, Swampasaur

Yo, question, why hating on Rare's creation of Donkey Kong Country but name yourself after the collectable characters in Banjo-Kazooie?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Yo, question, why hating on Rare's creation of Donkey Kong Country but name yourself after the collectable characters in Banjo-Kazooie?

Because it's possible to like one thing but not the other thing from the same guy? Metroid Other M and Samus Returns had the same director after all

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

While I do wholeheartedly support Toad also, he's held back by being a character without a definitive identity in a lot of games. (Is the Blue Toad from SMB2 and SM3DW Toad, or is that a different Toad?) Captain Toad does not have this issue, and is quickly becoming as prevalent as the Toad character before him.

I've said this before, but why is this an issue? We don't need a definitive Yoshi or Pikachu or Charizard in Smash, what makes Toad special?