Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[MamaLuigi123456]

Jumping is one of the central mechanics of Super Smash Bros., as are running, shielding, dodging, ledge-grabbing, etc.

I don't care if Captain Toad can't jump in Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker. You should NEVER strip such a basic mechanic like that from a character. Not only will this restrict Captain Toad from jumping around to hit opponents in the air, it also means he cannot recover barring a possible up special move. Furthermore, a lot of stages throughout Smash require jumping around. Playing as Captain Toad and are on that one small platform at the bottom of Temple? Well, tough luck, because you're stuck there until you get KO'ed or someone knocks you up to higher ground. Not only that, this would damage the character on both a competitive AND casual sense. A character without jumping would be at a big disadvantage to almost any character, especially midair specialists like Wario and Jigglypuff. You can give him as much power in his ground attacks as you want, but in the end his inability to jump would make him simply unplayable regardless. All of this would result in Captain Toad being, unquestionably, one of the worst characters in the game, with his no jumping mechanic completely destroying him beyond repair.

With all of that said, I would much rather see regular Toad over Captain Toad in Smash. At the same time, I don't see why simply making him the smallest heavyweight and having low jumps wouldn't suffice. Cannonically, he cannot jump because of his backpack. This would translate well into Smash; he would still jump, yes, but he would be pretty heavy (somewhere around R.O.B.), implying the backpack is still weighing him down.

The only character who remotely breaks this rule is and her unique shield break that instantly KOs her, but even that's stretching it imo.

 

[Krysco]

And yet none translate smartly to Smash. That's the point. They aren't the only important gameplay parts. It's also clearly not that important to Bowser when he's able to breathe streams of fire in mainline games before Smash as well. You're acting like they're so beyond important that it's impossible to ignore them. They're not ignored, they're just not as important as you make them. And no, they don't defeat enough enemies to require it to deal damage. Mario died in one hit too. Should he do so in Smash? No. It's a bad comparison because Mario still jumps in Smash. You also forget his moveset was heavily focused on his Super Mario 64 abilities(coincidentally, same with Bowser in Melee).


So all stuff that would hurt the balance of his gameplay? Now I see why it isn't there at all.


Except he was introduced in Brawl, where his weakness and strengths were solely due to the fact he's a Fire type. Flying wasn't translated to Smash to matter. He isn't even a legitimate Dragon outside of a Final Smash in 4. So no, it does matter. The gameplay directly made sure it mattered. Awful example and a huge stretch. He's not a Dragon in Smash in any official capacity(bar 4's Final Smash), and is just another Monster at best. He's a Fire Lizard, anyway.


And so beyond key to gameplay that it wouldn't work otherwise. This is not comparable to the other examples. Mario can beat level while ignoring enemies and could just hit the Axe to kill Bowser. The footstool jump is a useful tool, but not required to win the game as much as you think it is. Nor is the sword beams. Etc.


For one thing, that's not even Ganondorf's original move. That was used by Agnahim, who apparent is just one of Ganon's potential human forms. It was also used by Phantom Ganon first(and he even uses it more than regular Ganondorf in games). It's not really an iconic move to Ganondorf so much as an iconic move to characters related to the various Ganons at best. It's not that important to him. It'd be nice, but it's used by many characters, some who aren't even literally a form of Ganon.

Agahnim in A Link to the Past
Agahnim's Shadow in Link's Awakening
Phantom Ganon in Ocarina of Time, The Wind Waker and Four Swords Adventures
Ganondorf in Ocarina of Time
Blue Stalfos in Oracle of Ages
Twinrova in the Oracle series
Gouen in Four Swords
Vaati in Four Swords and The Minish Cap
Puppet Zelda in Twilight Princess
Cubus Sisters in Phantom Hourglass
Bilocyte in Skyward Sword
Ghirahim's final fight in Skyward Sword
Yuga Ganon in A Link Between Worlds
Lady Maud in Tri Force Heroes

Tons of times he doesn't use it, and by other ones. It's not iconic to him, like, at all.


And with tons of beyond bad comparisons, your point doesn't work. So far, the closest one you had was Ragnell at best.

You saying I'm acting like anything is merely your interpretation which happens to be wrong. My points are largely just examples to illustrate why Captain Toad doesn't absolutely need to lack the ability to jump. The ones I personally care most about are Ganondorf's and Ike's and that's just from my love of the former in Smash and the latter being one of the main characters of my favourite game.

Mario died in one hit while he was small, go figure, that's pretty accurate to what happens when you're tiny from a poison mushroom and are harder to ko when under the effect of the super mushroom, much like Mario. Mario was able to defeat Goombas, eventually Koopas (SMW), Rex, whatever other enemies and it's a consistent means of dealing damage in the Mario games including 64, though in that game it isn't the only means nor does it have to be the main one.

Ike could've been balanced around the sword beams, they could be a simple projectile much like Cloud's non Limit Blade Beam or they could as I said, be small extra disjoints to a few moves similar to the little shockwave Dedede has at the end of his fsmash. Ike being 100% true to his games would be ridiculous. He'd be super fast, Aether would ignore shields and heal him and he'd still be really strong.

Charizard is in the Dragon egg group and is very clearly based on a dragon. Marth and Charizard aren't even from the same series. I could've made the same point but replace Charizard with Ridley in Brawl. Heck, speaking of Charizard, he very clearly goes underwater when you first jump into it in Smash and that should just outright take him out and that's also from the anime. But it'd be a pointless limitation just as Captain Toad not jumping would be.

The PP bit wasn't meant to be tied to Mario dealing damage with jumps or sword beams, it was in response to the original point of Captain Toad not being able to jump. The 2 are directly tied to the games they're from to provide balance. That particular balance does not need to apply in Smash. Thunder can be used all match and Captain Toad could jump, Smash isn't an RPG nor is it a puzzle game.

I'm not saying jumping on enemies to deal damage/defeat them is needed to beat the game, I'm saying it's a very well known ability of Mario's that didn't get translated entirely into Smash.

Ganon and Ganondorf are just different forms of the same individual and again, it could've been added to further make him different from Falcon just as FLUDD, a tool that was only heavily involved with one game, was added to Mario's moveset to make him and Luigi less similar. Heck, look at all of the discussion about Mario getting another move to reference Cappy. Dead Man's Volley is associated with the wielder of the Triforce of Power. Phantom Ganon being...well a phantom version of Ganondorf or at the very least a phantom created by him. He himself uses it in OoT.

All of the examples I listed were just ones that came to the top of my mind by looking at the characters in Sm4sh. I'm not even saying all or any of these should be added to Smash (I'd personally just give Ganondorf and Ike the treatments mentioned). I'm just listing abilities characters have that weren't added to Smash to show that a well known trait does not have to be carried over to Smash and that includes Captain Toad not jumping.

 

[UserKev]

Personally I think he's full of it when he says he was the original Donkey Kong

It just doesn't make any sense

.. It does make sense. Elders tend to brag about their prime. You could end up learning some history.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You saying I'm acting like anything is merely your interpretation which happens to be wrong. My points are largely just examples to illustrate why Captain Toad doesn't absolutely need to lack the ability to jump. The ones I personally care most about are Ganondorf's and Ike's and that's just from my love of the former in Smash and the latter being one of the main characters of my favourite game.

And most of them are still bad examples.

Mario died in one hit while he was small, go figure, that's pretty accurate to what happens when you're tiny from a poison mushroom and are harder to ko when under the effect of the super mushroom, much like Mario. Mario was able to defeat Goombas, eventually Koopas (SMW), Rex, whatever other enemies and it's a consistent means of dealing damage in the Mario games including 64, though in that game it isn't the only means nor does it have to be the main one.

Mario's size in Smash is already "Small". He grows huge in his own taunt or from a Super Mushroom. And he can survive stuff anyway even while small. Again, the comparison doesn't make sense. The element never existed.

Ike could've been balanced around the sword beams, they could be a simple projectile much like Cloud's non Limit Blade Beam or they could as I said, be small extra disjoints to a few moves similar to the little shockwave Dedede has at the end of his fsmash. Ike being 100% true to his games would be ridiculous. He'd be super fast, Aether would ignore shields and heal him and he'd still be really strong.

And this is why I consider this is the only good point you've made.

Charizard is in the Dragon egg group and is very clearly based on a dragon. Marth and Charizard aren't even from the same series. I could've made the same point but replace Charizard with Ridley in Brawl. Heck, speaking of Charizard, he very clearly goes underwater when you first jump into it in Smash and that should just outright take him out and that's also from the anime. But it'd be a pointless limitation just as Captain Toad not jumping would be.

Yet you chose Charizard, who is officially a Fire Lizard anyway. But the point is still bad because you used the most stretched example. And something that had no business being in Smash. Marth having a special advantage against a few cast members because of a type that wasn't take into play anyway is just dumb. See why it doesn't matter here?

The PP bit wasn't meant to be tied to Mario dealing damage with jumps or sword beams, it was in response to the original point of Captain Toad not being able to jump. The 2 are directly tied to the games they're from to provide balance. That particular balance does not need to apply in Smash. Thunder can be used all match and Captain Toad could jump, Smash isn't an RPG nor is it a puzzle game.

Difference is rpg's don't always have magic point systems. It varies. Just like the Zelda games don't all have a straight magic meter or a limited amount of ammunition. Strategy RPG's like Shining Force have infinite use items, but limited magic. And so on. It varies too much to consider it to matter to Smash.

I'm not saying jumping on enemies to deal damage/defeat them is needed to beat the game, I'm saying it's a very well known ability of Mario's that didn't get translated entirely into Smash.

As I said before, Mario is focused on Super Mario 64, with a small bit from other games. That's why.

Ganon and Ganondorf are just different forms of the same individual and again, it could've been added to further make him different from Falcon just as FLUDD, a tool that was only heavily involved with one game, was added to Mario's moveset to make him and Luigi less similar. Heck, look at all of the discussion about Mario getting another move to reference Cappy. Dead Man's Volley is associated with the wielder of the Triforce of Power. Phantom Ganon being...well a phantom version of Ganondorf or at the very least a phantom created by him. He himself uses it in OoT.

You're missing the point. It was never key to Ganondorf from the start. They gave it to other characters in Zelda as is anyway. If Sakurai was going to do it, it'd probably have been during Brawl, and that came out after the Oracle games, which showed it was a common boss move that the Ganon characters sometimes used. That's why it isn't important to him, because it isn't in reality. Any chance he had to get it was lost when the Zelda series treated it as another random boss move, not a signature Ganon-related attack.

All of the examples I listed were just ones that came to the top of my mind by looking at the characters in Sm4sh. I'm not even saying all or any of these should be added to Smash (I'd personally just give Ganondorf and Ike the treatments mentioned). I'm just listing abilities characters have that weren't added to Smash to show that a well known trait does not have to be carried over to Smash and that includes Captain Toad not jumping.

And you're still using poor examples of stuff that cannot be translated without losing what makes Smash workable. You can't have a character that can't Jump, and you can't completely strip someone of their identity in every way by making them do the impossible. Captain Toad can't jump. It's literally the thing that separates him from Toad the most and makes him stand out. ...Literally in this case.

 

[Opossum]

And most of them are still bad examples.


Mario's size in Smash is already "Small". He grows huge in his own taunt or from a Super Mushroom. And he can survive stuff anyway even while small. Again, the comparison doesn't make sense. The element never existed.


And this is why I consider this is the only good point you've made.


Yet you chose Charizard, who is officially a Fire Lizard anyway. But the point is still bad because you used the most stretched example. And something that had no business being in Smash. Marth having a special advantage against a few cast members because of a type that wasn't take into play anyway is just dumb. See why it doesn't matter here?


Difference is rpg's don't always have magic point systems. It varies. Just like the Zelda games don't all have a straight magic meter or a limited amount of ammunition. Strategy RPG's like Shining Force have infinite use items, but limited magic. And so on. It varies too much to consider it to matter to Smash.


As I said before, Mario is focused on Super Mario 64, with a small bit from other games. That's why.


You're missing the point. It was never key to Ganondorf from the start. They gave it to other characters in Zelda as is anyway. If Sakurai was going to do it, it'd probably have been during Brawl, and that came out after the Oracle games, which showed it was a common boss move that the Ganon characters sometimes used. That's why it isn't important to him, because it isn't in reality. Any chance he had to get it was lost when the Zelda series treated it as another random boss move, not a signature Ganon-related attack.


And you're still using poor examples of stuff that cannot be translated without losing what makes Smash workable. You can't have a character that can't Jump, and you can't completely strip someone of their identity in every way by making them do the impossible. Captain Toad can't jump. It's literally the thing that separates him from Toad the most and makes him stand out. ...Literally in this case.

Squirtle should have been able to swim infinitely, being a Water type that has notable swimming abilities going by its Dex entries. And yet for balance reasons, Squirtle can still drown.

Captain Toad can't jump in Treasure Tracker due to the weight of his backpack. And yet for balance reasons, Captain Toad can jump, but not very high.


See how easy that is?

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

But a bunch of enemies in Mario can't jump, so not jumping is a pretty common move, and not something special to Captain Toad. Am I doing this right?

 

[Krysco]

And most of them are still bad examples.


Mario's size in Smash is already "Smash". He grows huge in his own taunt or from a Super Mushroom. And he can survive stuff anyway even while small. Again, the comparison doesn't make sense. The element never existed.


And this is why I consider this is the only good point you've made.


Yet you chose Charizard, who is officially a Fire Lizard anyway. But the point is still bad because you used the most stretched example. And something that had no business being in Smash. Marth having a special advantage against a few cast members because of a type that wasn't take into play anyway is just dumb. See why it doesn't matter here?


Difference is rpg's don't always have magic point systems. It varies. Just like the Zelda games don't all have a straight magic meter or a limited amount of ammunition. Strategy RPG's like Shining Force have infinite use items, but limited magic. And so on. It varies too much to consider it to matter to Smash.


As I said before, Mario is focused on Super Mario 64, with a small bit from other games. That's why.


You're missing the point. It was never key to Ganondorf from the start. They gave it to other characters in Zelda as is anyway. If Sakurai was going to do it, it'd probably have been during Brawl, and that came out after the Oracle games, which showed it was a common boss move that the Ganon characters sometimes used. That's why it isn't important to him, because it isn't in reality. Any chance he had to get it was lost when the Zelda series treated it as another random boss move, not a signature Ganon-related attack.


And you're still using poor examples of stuff that cannot be translated without losing what makes Smash workable. You can't have a character that can't Jump, and you can't completely strip someone of their identity in every way by making them do the impossible. Captain Toad can't jump. It's literally the thing that separates him from Toad the most and makes him stand out. ...Literally in this case.

Gonna try to make this response quick cuz I gotta sleep for work tomorrow. Mario's size situation was translated into an item for every character to share. My only guess for where you're getting 'officially the Fire Lizard' would be the Japanese name for what kind of Pokemon it is. Can't find that particular translation but the English Pokedex just calls it the 'Flame Pokemon'. RPGs as a whole don't always have PP/magic but Mother and Pokemon always have save for maybe some side games like I recall one on the Wii where the Pokemon were wind up toys and didn't have PP. DMV is not just something Ganondorf uses but it is something he's used. It wouldn't be out of completely nowhere for him to have it, it'd make sense. As I haven't played Treasure Tracker, I'll ask: what exact in-game reason is given, if any for why Captain Toad can't jump? Is it the backpack? If it's not then I'd say he either has no chance of getting in Smash or he'd be another character focused around a very particular gimmick and probably suffer for it much like Mac and his strong ground vs weak air game, Puff and her vice versa of Mac and Pokemon Trainer and the type weaknesses. I did say that if it's the backpack then they could come up with some excuse for why he jumps in Smash if they really felt the need to and if they did let him jump.

Just to be clear, I'm not entirely against Captain Toad getting in or having the inability to jump. I'd prefer other characters and prefer a character to not have such a glaring weakness but I can see it happening. And again, all of my examples weren't meant to be things I personally feel should be in Smash but rather well known traits much like CT's inability to jump not always being translated over to Smash. For what it's worth, I do enjoy debating with you Irene, so no hard feelings~

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Squirtle should have been able to swim infinitely, being a Water type that has notable swimming abilities going by its Dex entries. And yet for balance reasons, Squirtle can still drown.

Captain Toad can't jump in Treasure Tracker due to the weight of his backpack. And yet for balance reasons, Captain Toad can jump, but not very high.


See how easy that is?

Squirtle doesn't inherently swim in the games and has to learn a move to do so. It's also not their signature ability(Lapras is the signature infinite swimmer realistically, and continued to be defined as so). So the comparison doesn't work, again.

Look, these are all extreme stretches(Ragnell aside) that completely ignoring key defining features of the characters. Trying to make stretching examples that aren't key moves/defining points only makes the point worse. Captain Toad being unable to jump is integral to who he is. Swimming is not to Squirtle. Ganondorf having immense power and the ability to use magic in some way is(and he does use magical attacks, via physical moves). Link's defining features isn't the sword beam, it's his ability to use tons of items and weapons without any training. Mario's is to jump(what do you know, he jumps). Charizard in this case was designed to be a Fire user, like Squirtle as a Water user, and Ivysaur as a Grass user. While these are kind of bad ways to define them in Smash itself, that's how it worked(and that's actually pretty important as they're the first main Starter trio).

Gonna try to make this response quick cuz I gotta sleep for work tomorrow. Mario's size situation was translated into an item for every character to share. My only guess for where you're getting 'officially the Fire Lizard' would be the Japanese name for what kind of Pokemon it is. Can't find that particular translation but the English Pokedex just calls it the 'Flame Pokemon'. RPGs as a whole don't always have PP/magic but Mother and Pokemon always have save for maybe some side games like I recall one on the Wii where the Pokemon were wind up toys and didn't have PP. DMV is not just something Ganondorf uses but it is something he's used. It wouldn't be out of completely nowhere for him to have it, it'd make sense. As I haven't played Treasure Tracker, I'll ask: what exact in-game reason is given, if any for why Captain Toad can't jump? Is it the backpack? If it's not then I'd say he either has no chance of getting in Smash or he'd be another character focused around a very particular gimmick and probably suffer for it much like Mac and his strong ground vs weak air game, Puff and her vice versa of Mac and Pokemon Trainer and the type weaknesses. I did say that if it's the backpack then they could come up with some excuse for why he jumps in Smash if they really felt the need to and if they did let him jump.

Just to be clear, I'm not entirely against Captain Toad getting in or having the inability to jump. I'd prefer other characters and prefer a character to not have such a glaring weakness but I can see it happening. And again, all of my examples weren't meant to be things I personally feel should be in Smash but rather well known traits much like CT's inability to jump not always being translated over to Smash. For what it's worth, I do enjoy debating with you Irene, so no hard feelings~

Lizardon is Charizard's official Japanese name. He was never a literal Dragon. Keep in mind lizards can be called Dragons or even defined as them in some games. But he was never treated as a Dragon in any official format in his own game, and lo and behold, isn't on in Smash. Also, part of why he's just called the Flame Pokemon too. The dragon thing is more the result of moveset options. He couldn't even use Fly till later games, which suggests the wings weren't nearly that important(it's likely the Anime that make them more notable for later games, as he consistently flied there).

Anyway, while it's true it's the backpack, it's the key defining feature for him(plus,he's not the literal same Toad as the main one, but a separate person). More or less why I said it makes him "stand out". If you didn't notice the pun, anyway. Best I can think of to keep the fact he cannot literally jump is to use an animation to do so, like a cannon sending him upwards(with him being able to be knocked out of the cannon) while not losing his true defining feature.

As I said with Dead Man's Volley, the fact non-Ganon characters used it pretty much was a clue it wasn't important to Ganondorf enough to add it to Smash. Brawl was the right time to do it, but now that it's just a "whatever boss can use it" move, it became something to easily ignore. Hence the sword in TP having more relevance, since it's specific to that character design(plus, TP Ganondorf doesn't use the DMV anyway, so...). Ironically, TP Zelda uses it while as Ganondorf's Puppet, but that's kind of it. In a twist, it'd be perfect for her. I do want more tweaks myself, like some sword usage in his aerials(upper and back, maybe neutral), and his Forward Smash could easily use it. Regardless, I doubt he'll change much anyway.

 

[Deleted member]

Captain Toad discussion is done to death with people constantly making poor comparisons and counterpoints for why it makes sense for him to jump.

But I'll humor this for a moment.
Let's say the idea of making him "able to jump, but just jump really low" is a legitimate idea that doesn't at all go against the very concept of the character and what his game is about.

It's still a terrible idea.
In Mario games where character's stats are actually varied (which Smash obviously takes references from), the Toads' jumping ability compared to Mario is already poor.
Like, Mario is to the Toads like what Luigi is to Mario.
To keep with that thought in mind, a playable Toad in Smash would be roughly Peach level of jumping off the ground at maximum and that's if we're feeling generous.
Now take Captain Toad, and "give him a backpack with a lighter load", so he "can jump, but not very high", and you have someone like a mix between Little Mac and Ganondorf, air-wise. Someone who "ain't no air fighter" and sinks like a rock.

Even more like Ganondorf is that the Toads' noteworthy speed in comparison to Mario is taken from him due to the backpack but "not as much because it's a lighter load!", making mobility in the air AND the ground rather pathetic.
So now what? Unlike Ganondorf, there's no tradeoff for raw power to even attempt to make up for it. He's also got **** reach and has to rely on half-assed gimmicks to even do anything other than be an even bigger joke character than Jigglypuff, and yet even that is a stretch because she's at least got the best aerial mobility in the series.


But by all means.
Preoccupy yourselves with whether or not they could, and not stop to think if they should.


And that's all I'm going to say because I'm sick of discussing about Captain Toad and the only ones that will listen to what I just said are the ones who already agreed with it from the start.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Captain Toad discussion is done to death with people constantly making poor comparisons and counterpoints for why it makes sense for him to jump.

But I'll humor this for a moment.
Let's say the idea of making him "able to jump, but just jump really low" is a legitimate idea that doesn't at all go against the very concept of the character and what his game is about.

It's still a terrible idea.
In Mario games where character's stats are actually varied (which Smash obviously takes references from), the Toads' jumping ability compared to Mario is already poor.
Like, Mario is to the Toads like what Luigi is to Mario.
To keep with that thought in mind, a playable Toad in Smash would be roughly Peach level of jumping off the ground at maximum and that's if we're feeling generous.
Now take Captain Toad, and "give him a backpack with a lighter load", so he "can jump, but not very high", and you have someone like a mix between Little Mac and Ganondorf, air-wise. Someone who "ain't no air fighter" and sinks like a rock.

Even more like Ganondorf is that the Toads' noteworthy speed in comparison to Mario is taken from him due to the backpack but "not as much because it's a lighter load!", making mobility in the air AND the ground rather pathetic.
So now what? Unlike Ganondorf, there's no tradeoff for raw power to even attempt to make up for it. He's also got **** reach and has to rely on half-***** gimmicks to even do anything other than be an even bigger joke character than Jigglypuff, and yet even that is a stretch because she's at least got the best aerial mobility in the series.


But by all means.
Preoccupy yourselves with whether or not they could, and not stop to think if they should.


And that's all I'm going to say because I'm sick of discussing about Captain Toad and the only ones that will listen to what I just said are the ones who already agreed with it from the start.

For the record, I never really thought Captain Toad needed to be slow, just heavy. Something like Yoshi, but more exteme.

If that is to be considered, then it really just boils down to what kind of moveset we want out of him; power-ups or something based on Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker? Personally, I'd take Toad over Captain Toad any day.

 

[N3ON]

Jumping is integral to Smash. If a character can't jump, they're either going to be made to jump, much as Sonic was made to swim, or they won't be included if such a barrier is deemed insurmountable.

Sakurai has said before that he maneuvers around canonical limitations for the sake of functionality in Smash, and I wish to god I could find the damn quote so we could expedite this cyclical argument, but I've no idea where to start.

I'm of the belief he'll just forego Captain Toad's lack of jumping for the sake of how Smash works. But, inversely, he could omit the character. Frankly I don't find the character overly likely anyway, at least without more titles to his name. However the one outcome I don't see, is implementing a character in Smash who can't jump.

 

[Nonno Umby]

Guys, Captain Toad can't jump not because he is unable to do to it, but because his backpack is too heavy. If his main mechanic is about throwing things in and out of his backpack he can work.

Let's say that with an empty backpack he is faster and can jump normally. With one of the specials he grabs an item that he puts inside the backpack , making him heavier but also with a worse jump, but all the attacks that involves his backpack (which should be a few, considering that it is his main weapon in Treasure Tracker) get buffed considerably for each item.

This item resourcing system would make him stand out as an unique character.

 

[NintenRob]

.. It does make sense. Elders tend to brag about their prime. You could end up learning some history.

I mean it doesn't make sense that Cranky Kong is the original Donkey Kong

How can he be old monkey now while Mario and Pauline are the same age and Mario is even doing sports with Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong

Not to mention later versions of the original DK even have him with red tie.

 

[Opossum]

Squirtle doesn't inherently swim in the games and has to learn a move to do so. It's also not their signature ability(Lapras is the signature infinite swimmer realistically, and continued to be defined as so). So the comparison doesn't work, again.

Look, these are all extreme stretches(Ragnell aside) that completely ignoring key defining features of the characters. Trying to make stretching examples that aren't key moves/defining points only makes the point worse. Captain Toad being unable to jump is integral to who he is. Swimming is not to Squirtle. Ganondorf having immense power and the ability to use magic in some way is(and he does use magical attacks, via physical moves). Link's defining features isn't the sword beam, it's his ability to use tons of items and weapons without any training. Mario's is to jump(what do you know, he jumps). Charizard in this case was designed to be a Fire user, like Squirtle as a Water user, and Ivysaur as a Grass user. While these are kind of bad ways to define them in Smash itself, that's how it worked(and that's actually pretty important as they're the first main Starter trio).


Lizardon is Charizard's official Japanese name. He was never a literal Dragon. Keep in mind lizards can be called Dragons or even defined as them in some games. But he was never treated as a Dragon in any official format in his own game, and lo and behold, isn't on in Smash. Also, part of why he's just called the Flame Pokemon too. The dragon thing is more the result of moveset options. He couldn't even use Fly till later games, which suggests the wings weren't nearly that important(it's likely the Anime that make them more notable for later games, as he consistently flied there).

Anyway, while it's true it's the backpack, it's the key defining feature for him(plus,he's not the literal same Toad as the main one, but a separate person). More or less why I said it makes him "stand out". If you didn't notice the pun, anyway. Best I can think of to keep the fact he cannot literally jump is to use an animation to do so, like a cannon sending him upwards(with him being able to be knocked out of the cannon) while not losing his true defining feature.

As I said with Dead Man's Volley, the fact non-Ganon characters used it pretty much was a clue it wasn't important to Ganondorf enough to add it to Smash. Brawl was the right time to do it, but now that it's just a "whatever boss can use it" move, it became something to easily ignore. Hence the sword in TP having more relevance, since it's specific to that character design(plus, TP Ganondorf doesn't use the DMV anyway, so...). Ironically, TP Zelda uses it while as Ganondorf's Puppet, but that's kind of it. In a twist, it'd be perfect for her. I do want more tweaks myself, like some sword usage in his aerials(upper and back, maybe neutral), and his Forward Smash could easily use it. Regardless, I doubt he'll change much anyway.

Correction: it needs to be taught how to ferry people, not how to swim. The move Surf merely allows them to carry trainers with them across the water. And the non-battle components are just as canon as anything else in the games, so conveniently denying the other factors just seems like moving the goal posts.

And besides, there's even better examples: Kirby had infinite jumps in his home series, but for balance reasons, he has limited jumps. That's a direct showcase of changing canonical jumping prowess for balance. There's no dancing around it, really.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Correction: it needs to be taught how to ferry people, not how to swim. The move Surf merely allows them to carry trainers with them across the water. And the non-battle components are just as canon as anything else in the games, so conveniently denying the other factors just seems like moving the goal posts.

And besides, there's even better examples: Kirby had infinite jumps in his home series, but for balance reasons, he has limited jumps. That's a direct showcase of changing canonical jumping prowess for balance. There's no dancing around it, really.

What canon stuff? We don't see anything swim outside of the move. Outside of the Swimmer Class. Honestly, Squirtle is such a stretch entirely that it makes no sense. It's not going around swimming constantly in the anime either. It's walking. Lapras still has this role anyway, something that's beyond integral to the Pokemon. To the point of the only Pokemon having its own model/sprite while in water. It's not its signature ability at all.

Kirby doesn't have infinite jumps in every game either. Although this is a fairly decent example as it's closer to a signature ability(something that Squirtle's ability to swim, which isn't really made remotely important at all in the games or anime), since he lost it after Smash in Kirby 64 anyway(I literally don't know any other examples) and a few other games. Even then, you clearly are ignoring my actual point. I'm talking about Signature Abilities, not just things characters can do depending the game. The point is something that is so integral to the character and their gameplay(which Kirby's is his copy abilities, not the ability to fly a very long time... which is still in Smash anyway and still translates fine without losing the point entirely) that removing it removes what the actual character is. A lot of these ideas sound interesting for balance, but still miss the clear point. The whole point of Captain Toad is the fact he cannot jump. Not the reason why. But the fact it's who he is. Remove it and it's no longer Captain Toad at all. It's just a stretched version of the character that loses the entire gameplay completely.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

What canon stuff? We don't see anything swim outside of the move. Outside of the Swimmer Class. Honestly, Squirtle is such a stretch entirely that it makes no sense. It's not going around swimming constantly in the anime either. It's walking. Lapras still has this role anyway, something that's beyond integral to the Pokemon. To the point of the only Pokemon having its own model/sprite while in water. It's not its signature ability at all.

Kirby doesn't have infinite jumps in every game either. Although this is a fairly decent example as it's closer to a signature ability(something that Squirtle's ability to swim, which isn't really made remotely important at all in the games or anime), since he lost it after Smash in Kirby 64 anyway(I literally don't know any other examples) and a few other games. Even then, you clearly are ignoring my actual point. I'm talking about Signature Abilities, not just things characters can do depending the game. The point is something that is so integral to the character and their gameplay(which Kirby's is his copy abilities, not the ability to fly a very long time... which is still in Smash anyway and still translates fine without losing the point entirely) that removing it removes what the actual character is. A lot of these ideas sound interesting for balance, but still miss the clear point. The whole point of Captain Toad is the fact he cannot jump. Not the reason why. But the fact it's who he is. Remove it and it's no longer Captain Toad at all. It's just a stretched version of the character that loses the entire gameplay completely.

Irene, I love ya but jesus this is bad of you. Squirtle is a turtle. Turtles can swim and most, if not all Water types can be in the water, there's also the anime and movies that show stuff like this, and those ARE used for sources sometimes.

And look at the amount of games Kirby can jump infinitely. Now count all the games in which the jumps are limited. Kirby 64 is literally the only main game in which Kirby can't do that. Otherwise, look at Meta Knight if you want to be all "Well actually". He can fly on his own across the galaxy in the games. No Warp Star or anything needed. Yet he can't jump infinitely in Smash like the games. Look . It may not be a 'signature ability' like you say but it's still something they can do. Mario's known for jumping on enemies, but that doesn't mean he can't ground pound for example

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Irene, I love ya but jesus this is bad of you. Squirtle is a turtle. Turtles can swim and most, if not all Water types can be in the water, there's also the anime and movies that show stuff like this, and those ARE used for sources sometimes.

And look at the amount of games Kirby can jump infinitely. Now count all the games in which the jumps are limited. Kirby 64 is literally the only main game in which Kirby can't do that. Otherwise, look at Meta Knight if you want to be all "Well actually". He can fly on his own across the galaxy in the games. No Warp Star or anything needed. Yet he can't jump infinitely in Smash like the games. Look . It may not be a 'signature ability' like you say but it's still something they can do. Mario's known for jumping on enemies, but that doesn't mean he can't ground pound for example

Which doesn't matter if it's not a signature ability. That's been my argument from the start. That removing a signature ability removes something too integral from a character. It's never happened in Smash. And no, not all Water types can properly swim or is shown too. Which is odd, but again, to pretend it's shown off constantly despite not so is silly. We only sometimes see some in the water, and only while you're in a water area(Hell, Magikarp is way more known for the swimming thing, especially considering it was given the ability Swift Swim to drive how important it is home). Squirtle isn't known for swimming in the same way as something like Lapras(or Magikarp for that matter). Which is almost always shown in the water. That's still its signature thing. Squirtle's actual signature thing is more around its shell(before Skull Bash stopped being exclusive to the line), and yet no Pokedex entry only talks about its shell and spraying foamy water from its mouth. It's a hard stretch entirely to say "it's known for swimming" when it's never made important at all.

The point of Kirby's tons of jumps in Smash is to show he can jump like a balloon multiple times. Likewise, the later games he doesn't have infinite jumps are from various parts of regular main series games too(Planet Robobot and Triple Deluxe). The integral part is still kept. Likewise, the copy ability was fairly specific and divided into groups of enemies for which ability is gotten. This isn't really different from Smash, which doesn't have enemies but actual specific characters, and he gets basically their signature move generally(which is often what the B move is meant to be). This isn't represented badly in Smash either.

The other thing isn't just the fact Captain Toad's backpack is too heavy, it's that he doesn't randomly throw out items either to be allowed to jump. Which is why the idea doesn't work very well in representing him or his personality or his ability in a way that makes sense. Again, it's a cool character, but a lot of stretches need to be made to gain the ability to jump. Something that throws him in the air(without actually jumping) would work better instead since it doesn't remove the signature ability of the character at all.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Which doesn't matter if it's not a signature ability. That's been my argument from the start. That removing a signature ability removes something too integral from a character. It's never happened in Smash. And no, not all Water types can properly swim or is shown too. Which is odd, but again, to pretend it's shown off constantly despite not so is silly. We only sometimes see some in the water, and only while you're in a water area(Hell, Magikarp is way more known for the swimming thing, especially considering it was given the ability Swift Swim to drive how important it is home). Squirtle isn't known for swimming in the same way as something like Lapras(or Magikarp for that matter). Which is almost always shown in the water. That's still its signature thing. Squirtle's actual signature thing is more around its shell(before Skull Bash stopped being exclusive to the line), and yet no Pokedex entry only talks about its shell and spraying foamy water from its mouth. It's a hard stretch entirely to say "it's known for swimming" when it's never made important at all.

The point of Kirby's tons of jumps in Smash is to show he can jump like a balloon multiple times. Likewise, the later games he doesn't have infinite jumps are from various parts of regular main series games too(Planet Robobot and Triple Deluxe). The integral part is still kept. Likewise, the copy ability was fairly specific and divided into groups of enemies for which ability is gotten. This isn't really different from Smash, which doesn't have enemies but actual specific characters, and he gets basically their signature move generally(which is often what the B move is meant to be). This isn't represented badly in Smash either.

The other thing isn't just the fact Captain Toad's backpack is too heavy, it's that he doesn't randomly throw out items either to be allowed to jump. Which is why the idea doesn't work very well in representing him or his personality or his ability in a way that makes sense. Again, it's a cool character, but a lot of stretches need to be made to gain the ability to jump. Something that throws him in the air(without actually jumping) would work better instead since it doesn't remove the signature ability of the character at all.

1: Characters can have multiple signature abilities, again, Kirby floating like a balloon is one of them.
2: A TURTLE THAT HAS BEEN SHOWN SWIMMING THAT HAS BEEN SAID TO BE GOOD AT IT IN THE CANON. SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO DROWN. NOBODY can really swim in Smash, they panic like crazy before sinking like a rock. It doesn't MATTER if Squirtle's most well-known thing is swimming or not, because it CAN. THAT'S the argument.

Kirby STILL has infinite jumps in those games unless you mean the minigames, which honestly shouldn't be used as a basis.

Make the character have laughably low jumps. Problem solved. "Oh but" No. This is the same game in which Samus Aran's mobility is better without the Power Suit which contradicts the canon. Olimar's space suit lets him breathe and he can go in water just fine in his games. It's lethal for him in Smash. No character can stay 100% true to their main game counterparts

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

1: Characters can have multiple signature abilities, again, Kirby floating like a balloon is one of them.

Still does anyway. So...

Edited, but agree to disagree. I refuse to budge on this, so there's no point in continuing.

 

[Cosmic77]

Honestly, it'd be impossible to keep every character's skills and abilities true to their game without making an insanely OP or underpowered character. It shouldn't matter if Captain Toad can jump or if Squirtle can drown. As long as Captain Toad has one of the worst jumps in the game and Squirtle can swim faster than other characters, then both are being accurately represented by the areas they excel and struggle in.



So here's something else we can discuss. A total of seven characters who debuted in 2007 to 2013 got added in Smash 4's base roster. Assuming the same thing somehow happens again in Smash 5, which seven characters debuting from 2014 and beyond (which means characters from ports and remakes are excluded unless the original game came out in 2014 or later) would you add to the next roster?

For me, I'd add...

Mipha
Lycanroc
Rex/Pyra
Inkling
Octoling
Spring Man
Labo Man

 

[Krysco]

Kirby actually couldn't copy abilities in Dreamland 1, his first game. That was gained in Adventure. Speaking of Kirby, he's known for jumping but unlike Mario or Sonic, it's not an offensive tool for him. He's able to defeat weak enemies if he falls from a great distance onto them but jumping more thsn once is actually risky for Kirby in his games (save for few situations like having Wing or Jet) because he can't use any copy ability powers while he's puffed up. Just to reinforce Mario having jumping as an attack to be a 'signature trait'. Funny enough, Smash actually reverses it for Mario since in the Mario games, he's vulnerable at his top while jumping yet his up special references jumping up to hit blocks for coins.

But yeah, I think all that can be said pretty much has been. I think if Captain Toad gets in, he should be able to jump, others think otherwise. Won't matter if he doesn't get in anyways.

Speaking of traits though, I had this thought on Friday while working, it'd be amusing if footstooling Bowser damaged the footstooler. He has horns and spikes and can't generally be jumped on in the games (RPGs I think are the only exception?) and he got Tough Guy as a unique ability in Sm4sh anyways. Would be incredibly stupid though since footstooling uses the same input as double jumps so it could be triggered unintentionally.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Speaking of traits though, I had this thought on Friday while working, it'd be amusing if footstooling Bowser damaged the footstooler. He has horns and spikes and can't generally be jumped on in the games (RPGs I think are the only exception?) and he got Tough Guy as a unique ability in Sm4sh anyways. Would be incredibly stupid though since footstooling uses the same input as double jumps so it could be triggered unintentionally.

I know I didn't quote the bit, but Kirby's copy is comparable to Link's Spin Attack. Added later, but became their signature move(or one of them in the context).

Anyway, this could be fun, if other characters with spikes could have the same applications. Alternatively, this could be a neat defensive measure for Bowser if he shields while crouching. Would certainly boost his viability. It would also only affect aerial stuff, so you could still grab. That way it has a weakness.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I also take regular Toad over Captain Toad, but I cannot deny that Captain Toad has left his mark on the Mario franchise. He's appearing in just about every 3D Mario game and has his own game(s?). He's an extremely likely addition.

And yes there's better and more iconic characters around than Pauline. She doesn't have that much to work with anyway. I'd accept her addition if there was still a lack of females, but there isn't. Dixie Kong is also female btw, recent, iconic and guess what? She's actually a fighter and has canon moveset material.

Then there's of course King K.Rool who's probably THE most popular 1st party character at this point. But sure, ignore him all you want. He's pretty much set to return anyway in whatever next DK game as well. Also the fact he's a super heavy weight is great for overall balance. He's done GREAT in the ballot, and that's a fact none can deny. The longer it takes for Smash to be revealed, the better his chances are gonna be.

Am also still defending Impa as the most logical Zelda newcomer by the way.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I'll just mention that if a standard Toad was made playable, it would have to be a lightweight, especially considering that the Blue Toad in 3D World ran the fastest of all the playable characters.

 

[Deleted member]

I'll just mention that if a standard Toad was made playable, it would have to be a lightweight, especially considering that the Blue Toad in 3D World ran the fastest of all the playable characters.

While I agree that a Toad would be lighter than Mario, speed is not relative to knockback resistance (a.k.a. "weight").
The best example I can give here is Bowser in Smash 4.
He runs faster than Mario, yet is the heaviest character in the game.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

While I agree that a Toad would be lighter than Mario, speed is not relative to knockback resistance (a.k.a. "weight").
The best example I can give here is Bowser in Smash 4.
He runs faster than Mario, yet is the heaviest character in the game.

Still, when you look at Fox McCloud, he's among the quickest fighters on the ground, and he's also a fast-falling lightweight, with the highest gravity of any standard fighter (losing only to Giga Bowser). Bowser may be the heaviest standard fighter, but he falls at a slower speed than Mario, and his vertical endurance is also hindered by a high gravity value (10th highest gravity, excluding Final Smashes, being tied with Charizard and Meta Knight).

The Blue Toad jumped the lowest of all the playable characters in 3D World, so perhaps a playable Toad may take a page from Fox McCloud's attributes in that he's a fast lightweight, who's also a fast-faller, and his jumping height would be hindered by a high gravity value.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Still, when you look at Fox McCloud, he's among the quickest fighters on the ground, and he's also a fast-falling lightweight, with the highest gravity of any standard fighter (losing only to Giga Bowser). Bowser may be the heaviest standard fighter, but he falls at a slower speed than Mario, and his vertical endurance is also hindered by a high gravity value (10th highest gravity, excluding Final Smashes, being tied with Charizard and Meta Knight).

The Blue Toad jumped the lowest of all the playable characters in 3D World, so perhaps a playable Toad may take a page from Fox McCloud's attributes in that he's a fast lightweight, who's also a fast-faller, and his jumping height would be hindered by a high gravity value.

He wouldn't be taking Fox's attributes but Troll Toad's attributes in 3D World in that case

 

[Mega Bidoof]

I suppose he's just really dedicated on keeping Peach's Toad counter too. Would the two even be allowed to co-exist? The devs seem pretty set on making sure there aren't any duplicates of characters outside of the palette swaps.

I feel it could definitely be worked around easily.

They could leave it unchanged and just say that it's another Toad, as there are many of them.

Alternatively, the counter Toad could be changed to a different colored Toad (and back to main Toad when playable Toad is using a palette swap), Toadette, or my personal choice, Toadsworth. Toadsworth is supposed to be Peach's steward, so it would make sense if she pulls him out for protection.

 

[Deleted member]

I agree with the fact that Captain Toad should be able to jump. Yes it would not make any sense canon wise, but it at least balances them. For example, a character who has multiple jumps or a stage with a platform or platforms would be able to easily camp them out and it would make it highly unfair for the Captain Toad player, as they can not reach them at all. Okay, maybe he can use his recovery. But still, Captain Toad would constantly have to use his recovery to get the player above him ( which is still unfair ). Captain Toad should have a low jump, but not too low. Balance is always important in a Super Smash Brothers game. If Captain Toad was introduced, I could see him having a bad air game ( Maybe strong aerials but lack of reach? ).

 

[Mega Bidoof]

Am also still defending Impa as the most logical Zelda newcomer by the way.

I'd say the same in a pre-BotW world, but Breath of the Wild went back to having her as a little old lady. It would seem weird having her almost 7 year-old Skyward Sword incarnation playable when her recent BotW incarnation looks nothing like it.

The same kinda goes for Tingle, who I considered as the most likely Zelda newcomer due to him being one of the few recurring characters. He would've been more likely in a Smash 4 time, with Wind Waker HD having just released, but now he's totally absent in BotW, which I think takes a big blow to his chances.

There really aren't any recurring side characters who reappeared in BotW (besides Impa, who's an old fart), so either Sakurai (if he's working on it) finally adds a one-off Zelda character like one of the champions, adds a recurring character that wasn't in BotW like Tingle or young Impa, or just doesn't add a Zelda character at all. Or he can just add another "Toon" character like Tetra or Toon Zelda.


Of course there's the possibility you WERE referring to having a playable BotW Impa, running and leaping around like Yoda in prequels, which I would main Day 1.

 

[Diddy Kong]

BOTW Impa is less of an issue than you might think. She has lots of workable stuff, on paper. She just needs a young design, which might possibly be there in the drafts. And if not, there's still Paya, and they could just use the face of HW Impa- combine that and it's a believable "BOTW Young Impa".

Plus, it's not like the rest of the cast is gonna be BOTW-based. Definitely not Toon Link and Ganondorf, at the very least. So Impa being based on either Skyward Sword- which might get a remake down the road- or Hyrule Warriors- which WILL have a remake on Switch down the road-.

It's like most of you forget that Hyrule Warriors is a thing. It left a huge amount of impact. Why else would it be released on 3 platforms, and branch off to make Fire Emblem Warriors? Cause it sells, and it's popular. Plus it has all the popular Zelda characters playable. Also not unimportant: it has a stable design for all the Zelda characters currently in Smash, cause they're all there.

So yes, Hyrule Warriors makes Impa a great choice. Then again, she could have some slight competition with the other playable warriors- but I think she has a slight edge over them anyway.

ALSO: Captain Toad should be able to jump if they make him playable without backpack. Or they could make the heavy backpack a gimmick, in which he'd be able to throw it off or shed it off and get better or actual jumping skills without it at the cost of weight and fall speed. Then again, they could also make him the anti-Yoshi by giving him a Up B that say... makes him climb a damn ladder or something but no actual jumps? It's like you people can't be creative anymore.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

ALSO: Captain Toad should be able to jump if they make him playable without backpack. Or they could make the heavy backpack a gimmick, in which he'd be able to throw it off or shed it off and get better or actual jumping skills without it at the cost of weight and fall speed. Then again, they could also make him the anti-Yoshi by giving him a Up B that say... makes him climb a damn ladder or something but no actual jumps? It's like you people can't be creative anymore.

Jumping is integral to Smash. Making a character not jump is like not making a character being able to move - it simply makes them bad beyond repair.

It's not saying they can't do it, I'm saying they shouldn't do it.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Yo, question, why hating on Rare's creation of Donkey Kong Country but name yourself after the collectable characters in Banjo-Kazooie?

I'm not.

Just because some stick around doesn't mean they aren't by far the most recurrent type of cut.

I didn't say otherwise. I'm officially fed up with you straw manning my positions as a result of your failure to read my comments.

 

[Bowserlick]

People can be for or against Captain Toad, jumping or not, but the discussion brings up the issue of ground vs aerial fighters.

I believe a Shield Tier system can be used to give tougher shields (Smash 4 default shields) to certain characters and weaker shields to others (such as quick or aerial-based fighters). Maybe some, like Sheik, should not have a shield.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I guess for some reason, Toad can't use any abilities from Captain Toad without being Captain Toad.

I thought the point of Toad being playable was that he was an iconic character. So why are we picking this very specific, less iconic version of him? Because it's the first time Toad appeared in his own game? (which it's not)

The fact that you have to make Toad be Captain Toad says something about your confidence in Toad's ability to be a sufficient character by himself.

 

[Opossum]

I guess for some reason, Toad can't use any abilities from Captain Toad without being Captain Toad.

I thought the point of Toad being playable was that he was an iconic character. So why are we picking this very specific, less iconic version of him? Because it's the first time Toad appeared in his own game? (which it's not)

The fact that you have to make Toad be Captain Toad says something about your confidence in Toad's ability to be a sufficient character by himself.

No, if anything, Sakurai keeping Toad as Peach's meat shield says more about people's confidence in vanilla Toad.

Captain Toad has more to work with because he's a specific Toad. As such, not only can he do things the generic Toads can do, but he can also do things he alone can do. All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.

That and putting a headlamp and vest on doesn't make him less iconic. He's still recognizably a Toad.

 

[Krysco]

Got a question that's come to mind after seeing so many Impa related posts, especially that Yoda one: what's wrong with Impa being old and in Smash? Gonna at least specifically ask Diddy Kong since if I'm not mistaken, you're for the idea of Cranky getting into Smash? Or perhaps that was just a joke. Not always easy to tell online.

 

[Cosmic77]

Got a question that's come to mind after seeing so many Impa related posts, especially that Yoda one: what's wrong with Impa being old and in Smash?

Impa's health insurance won't cover her for hip replacement surgery should she hurt herself in Smash.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

I know I've said this before but i think a moveset revolving around power-ups throughout the Mario series would be a lot more interesting than something inspired from Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker. I can see [regular] Toad using things like the Propeller Mushroom or a Springboard to recover, maybe the Penguin Suit as a sliding attack, maybe throw a boomerang forward, etc.

also I really don't like Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker, the game is a boring puzzle platformer made to cash in on Super Mario 3D World. That and I 100% the entire game on my first playthrough so I have no incentive to play it ever again.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Balloon Fighter would be a really interesting character, relying on being in the air. Kind of like a reverse Little Mac.