Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Guybrush20X6]

Toads has his own game series. He's also the sole protagonist of Wario's Woods.

Has Waddle Dee has his own series?

To be fair, one game and a port isn't a series.
However, Waddle Dee, Bandanna or otherwise hasn't starred in a game.

Closest is Rainbow Curse where three of him play sidekick to Kirby and Star Allies where he's the only Dream Friend available from the start.

So he's where Luigi was in the SNES era ATM. Better than N64 Era Luigi at least.

 

[KMDP]

Is it the same source that says Waluigi's Taco Stand is deep within Nintendo's vault?

Nah, my source says that game never existed, but Ice Climbers: Uprising and a new F-Zero are on the way

Waluigi's Taco Stand?

Nah. The real Waluigi game is Waluigi's Bridal Boutique.

Meaningless Internet Points and Virtual Cookies to those who get the... yadda yadda yadda...

 

[Nonno Umby]

No, Waddle Dee just isn't more important than Toad

To gaming in general? Probably.
To their respective series? Waddle Dee is way more important to Kirby than Toad is to Mario. Waddle Dees are used for several promotions and merchandise, even more than Dedede and Meta Knight. In Japan they are as recogniazable as Kirby himself, and have appeared in every single title in the series.

 

[XenoWarriorX]

Waluigi's Taco Stand?

Nah. The real Waluigi game is Waluigi's Bridal Boutique.

Meaningless Internet Points and Virtual Cookies to those who get the... yadda yadda yadda...

Nah. Waluigi's taco stand is totally real guys. )))

I've gOt PrOOf.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

but none of those characters are a standard enemy with a bandana on. I understand Dee is a main protagonist but that doesn’t make his design any less lazy

Bowser Jr. literally reuses Baby Bowser's design from Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island so there's that to think about.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

We're comparing Mario, the most popular Video Game Franchise on the planet, who already has 8 characters with Kirby, a rather niche little platformer, who only has three characters. That's just not a fair comparison no matter how you look at it.

I'm all for people giving genuine reason why Dee shouldn't be in but "lol toad" should NOT be one of them.

Bandana Dee is the next most popular character in Kirby and has a spear that could give him easy moveset potential to boot. Toad, or even Captain Toad, isn't even the next most popular Mario character in that particular franchise. No, that honor goes to Waluigi. So, please stop using Mario as a comparison. It really just doesn't make any sense.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

All this talk of Ice Climbers Uprising and Waluigi’s Taco Stand. Toss those leaks, they’re missing Kirby Does His Taxes Deluxe.



...tfw there’s still maintenance going on and it cut off my last post

 

[Warchamp7]

Alerts should be grouped now. I think.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

We're comparing Mario, the most popular Video Game Franchise on the planet, who already has 8 characters with Kirby, a rather niche little platformer, who only has three characters. That's just not a fair comparison no matter how you look at it.

I'm all for people giving genuine reason why Dee shouldn't be in but "lol toad" should NOT be one of them.

Bandana Dee is the next most popular character in Kirby and has a spear that could give him easy moveset potential to boot. Toad, or even Captain Toad, isn't even the next most popular Mario character in that particular franchise. No, that honor goes to Waluigi. So, please stop using Mario as a comparison. It really just doesn't make any sense.

If they START the Mario comparison, I don't see a problem with also using a Mario comparison.

 

[Deleted member]

All this talk of Ice Climbers Uprising and Waluigi’s Taco Stand. Toss those leaks, they’re missing Kirby Does His Taxes Deluxe.



...tfw there’s still maintenance going on and it cut off my last post

My source did hear about new Kirby and Yoshi titles in development.

 

[Nonno Umby]

It's less opinion more fact on a perspective of games.
Toad has Wario's Woods, his own subseries with Captain Toad, I think there's another one that I'm forgetting here
Waddle Dee has nothing. Zip, Zilch. Zero.

It isn't a good idea to compare a franchise with a million spin off and several games every single year to a popular but not that huge series.
Besides if having your own game is more important that beinga big character in your series then I guess these guys should have got the boot instead of Toad, since they didn't had a starring game when they were added to Smash.

 

[XenoWarriorX]

All this talk of Ice Climbers Uprising and Waluigi’s Taco Stand. Toss those leaks, they’re missing Kirby Does His Taxes Deluxe.



...tfw there’s still maintenance going on and it cut off my last post

Nah, i heard they scrapped that game and turned it into Yoshi commits Tax Fraud.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc8vrGjyqes

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

If they START the Mario comparison, I don't see a problem with also using a Mario comparison.

For either side it's a bad comparison. If they used that comparison then, yeah, they kind of dug themselves into a hole.

 

[Will]

No, that honor goes to Waluigi.

If he's so popular why:

1. do i see more people hate him than like him
2. does he lack his own game
3. i just like numbering things to 3

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Huh, when XenoWarriorX quoted me I didn’t get the ping?

 

[WallyPalmer]

It's less opinion more fact on a perspective of games.
Toad has Wario's Woods, his own subseries with Captain Toad, I think there's another one that I'm forgetting here
Waddle Dee has nothing. Zip, Zilch. Zero.

And you're totally entitled to thinking that! That's absolutely a thought you can choose to have!

 

[Cutie Gwen]

If he's so popular why:

1. do i see more people hate him than like him
2. does he lack his own game
3. i just like numbering things to 3

1: Because edgelord contrarians exist, I thought you of all people would know that
2: Ask Nintendo. I think it's because there's not a lot a character like Waluigi could do that Nintendo would like in relation to Mario

 

[Koopaul]

I like how everyone's saying Toad as if any individual Toad is more important than, you know, the one Waddle Dee that stands out and is even getting pushed ti be added in Smash by HAL. I don't see the company that owns Smash call for that often

Toad is one of the most iconic Nintendo characters not yet to be made a fighter. Show anyone on the street a picture of Toad and they'll recognize that guy. Show someone Bandana Waddle Dee? Maybe some people might know him.

Let's face it, Bandana Dee is important to Kirby but Toad exceeds his importance to Nintendo as a whole. Just look up Toad merchandise for a sec and then tell me who is a bigger deal.

 

[LetterO]

Anyone else want Masterpieces back? I thought they were fun to kill time in. I'd just wish they extended the amount of time available for certain games. Also, I don't know how likely it'd be as then we'd get people clamoring for a Virtual Console.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

If he's so popular why:

1. do i see more people hate him than like him
2. does he lack his own game
3. i just like numbering things to 3

1. You must be looking in the wrong places. There's a surprising amount of Waluigi love, me NOT being one of those people.
2. Damn good question, and one I don't have the answer to, but Nintendo never makes games revolving around the character. They come up with the idea first. Captain Toad was almost a Zelda game.
3. Me too.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

And you're totally entitled to thinking that! That's absolutely a thought you can choose to have!

Are you captain obvious or passive aggression man?

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I’m not getting any pings at all period, actually...

 

[XenoWarriorX]

Huh, when XenoWarriorX quoted me I didn’t get the ping?

Smashboards is sorta buggy, as i had the same happen to me.

 

[WallyPalmer]

Are you captain obvious or passive aggression man?

Okay!

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Toad is one of the most iconic Nintendo characters not yet to be made a fighter. Show anyone on the street a picture of Toad and they'll recognize that guy. Show someone Bandana Waddle Dee? Maybe some people might know him.

Let's face it, Bandana Dee is important to Kirby but Toad exceeds his importance to Nintendo as a whole. Just look up Toad merchandise for a sec and then tell me who is a bigger deal.

You're right, importance to Nintendo matters, which is why we got characters from games who ****ing flopped, characters who aren't from Nintendo and most recently a character Nintendo has refused to acknowledge for a decade. Silly me!

 

[KMDP]

My source did hear about new Kirby and Yoshi titles in development.

Are they paired games? "Kirby does his Taxes "and "Yoshi doesn't do his Taxes"?

 

[Deleted member]

Are they paired games? "Kirby does his Taxes "and "Yoshi doesn't do his Taxes"?

They tell two parts of the same story, but do not share gameplay styles.

And I got no notification for this response.

 

[WingedSupernova]

I feel like we're comparing apples to oranges here. The smash audience is a bit different than the Nintendo audience. The reason that so much merch is made of someone like Toad is because he's from the Mario series and people play as him in very popular games like Mario Kart. In short, his popularity is more driven by the casual Nintendo audience than the one targeted for Smash. Bandana Dee is way more popular to the Smash audience and it's easy to see when you look at any poll for most wanted fighters.

 

[KMDP]

They tell two parts of the same story, but do not share gameplay styles.

And I got no notification for this response.

An eternal rivalry.

By the way, if you want to make text invisible. The background colour is #1C1C1C (at least for the theme I'm using, I'm not sure if there are board themes that have different text box colours).

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I feel like we're comparing apples to oranges here. The smash audience is a bit different than the Nintendo audience. The reason that so much merch is made of someone like Toad is because he's from the Mario series and people play as him in very popular games like Mario Kart. In short, his popularity is more driven by the casual Nintendo audience than the one targeted for Smash. Bandana Dee is way more popular to the Smash audience and it's easy to see when you look at any poll for most wanted fighters.

I wasn't comparing popularity, I was comparing their role.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Toad is one of the most iconic Nintendo characters not yet to be made a fighter. Show anyone on the street a picture of Toad and they'll recognize that guy. Show someone Bandana Waddle Dee? Maybe some people might know him.

Let's face it, Bandana Dee is important to Kirby but Toad exceeds his importance to Nintendo as a whole. Just look up Toad merchandise for a sec and then tell me who is a bigger deal.

Again, as previously stated, that's not a fair comparison because you're comparing Mario, the most popular video game franchise in the world, to Kirby, a niche platformer series that isn't nearly as popular.

One of these things is not like the other

 

[Opossum]

Not Stahl? Dream you has no culture


Obviously Luigi is more import than Bandana Dee, but that's not what I meant. But Bandana Dee is a key part of his series, so it's a little weird him not being here. And I used a metaphor people would get.

In my defense, whenever I use Stahl in Awakening I make him a Great Knight for access to Luna. Same reason Dream!Me didn't say Frederick. Stahl's cool though. Probably in my top ten from Awakening. At the very least top fifteen.

Screw it, Stahl for Smash. Closest thing to having Phoenix Wright, technically.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

What are you talking about? Blue Toad's the hottest newcomer! He even brought along a Princess for no extra charge
But yeah, the game hasn't felt right ever since DDD lost his Waddle Dee toss. It was like, his best move.

Old Toss Attack, 70% chance for Adorable Bullet sponge, 20% chance for somewhat freaky sponge with laser, 10% for super powerful projectile.
New Toss: The old powerful projectile turned into a serious health hazard to DDD.

You don't have to kneecap your children to show you don't have bias Sakurai.

Waddle Dee Toss was absolutely not his best move and was a pretty ****ty projectile all-around, it was too laggy and Dees/Doos were too limited and slow to actually be a projectile you could zone with while their reward was barely better than the typical projectile, the only real use for Waddle Dee Toss was to hope you get lucky and throw out a Gordo for a 20%+ damage hit or an early kill, it did all its utilities poorly. Waddles could sponge projectiles, but the move being so laggy and Waddles being so small and slow meant any projectile zoner could easily just shoot around them and still prevent Dedede from approaching.

As much **** as they get, Smash 4 Gordos are a much more useful and are a much more consistently rewarding projectile even with the ease of reflecting them, and it's not like Dedede is helpless to deal with the reflection. Up the reflection threshold a bit, and maybe give it a specifically higher threshold against projectiles so that weak fast projectiles don't invalidate them, and they would be great.

 

[Remmy-ro]

I had the fourth Smash Bros dream I ever had last night, and second one for Ultimate.

Basically I was asked by Sakurai to pick an Assist Trophy, but it specifically had to be a paladin from Fire Emblem. Dream!Me went with Berkut (if it were Real!Me I'd have gone with either him or Jagen). So if Berkut is an assist, blame Dream!Me.

I used to have a big problem with having dreams about games I was super hyped about. I decided to try and pace myself because I hated the disappointment of waking up after the dream. It's been years since that's happened until recently where I've already dreamed about ultimate twice

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Waddle Dee Toss was absolutely not his best move and was a pretty ****ty projectile all-around, it was too laggy and Dees/Doos were too limited and slow to actually be a projectile you could zone with while their reward was barely better than the typical projectile, the only real use for Waddle Dee Toss was to hope you get lucky and throw out a Gordo for a 20%+ damage hit or an early kill, it did all its utilities poorly. Waddles could sponge projectiles, but the move being so laggy and Waddles being so small and slow meant any projectile zoner could easily just shoot around them and still prevent Dedede from approaching.

As much **** as they get, Smash 4 Gordos are a much more useful and are a much more consistently rewarding projectile even with the ease of reflecting them, and it's not like Dedede is helpless to deal with the reflection. Up the reflection threshold a bit, and maybe give it a specifically higher threshold against projectiles so that weak fast projectiles don't invalidate them, and they would be great.

They may have sucked but I enjoyed Dedede more when he had them. It was fun having an army of Waddle Dee's just walking around the field

 

[Koopaul]

You're right, importance to Nintendo matters, which is why we got characters from games who ****ing flopped, characters who aren't from Nintendo and most recently a character Nintendo has refused to acknowledge for a decade. Silly me!

You're the one talking about importance in the quote I posted. I didn't even imply that Toad should be in Smash. Super Smash Bros. series will add whoever it wants for a variety of reasons, but if we are doing the "Who's more important" argument then Toad wins.

 

[WingedSupernova]

I wasn't comparing popularity, I was comparing their role.

It's just a general statement to the topic at hand not directed at anyone in particular.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

If that Mario movie by Illumination studios comes out and gives Toads the role of minions, we'll probably see a rise in the popularity of Toads

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Not only is Bandana Waddle Dee literally a Waddle Dee wearing a bandana which is a Goombario tier design and totally unsuited to being a serious character for that alone, but he sure wasn't in any of the Kirby games I played which is I think all of them up through Kirby 64. I know there are a ton of newer Kirby games and maybe he's important in some of them, but the ones of them I've seen substantial gameplay of didn't really feature him either though I can't promise he didn't make a cameo somewhere (Super Star Ultra, Epic Yarn). If you are a major Kirby fan and play every last game in the series and are super focused on specific newer titles maybe he seems really important, but I think you'd discover that to a lot of people who have played plenty of Kirby games he's still a nobody. Comparing to Luigi is silly. Comparing to even Toad is a serious downplay of Toad.

All of that aside though, when it comes to characters who are not household names, you have to remember that a lot of it comes down to selling the character to people who don't know who the character is which requires an interesting design. K.Rool is very obscure by Smash character standards, but his design is complex and extremely expressive which made it pretty easy to make him look exciting in a trailer (and I'd point out the hero vs villain montage was probably mostly just to inform a lot of younger players who he even is; they wouldn't have instantly guessed he was a longtime DK enemy). K.Rool's history also involves him doing a ton of really interesting things which made giving him a diverse moveset with tons of really unique moves really natural. Imagine trying to sell a design that is a Waddle Dee wearing a bandana carrying a toothpick that is supposed to pass for a spear. It would really be like trying to make a hype Goombario trailer. Now here we have... a Goomba! Remember those Mario players? This one is special! He wears a hat! Look at his thrilling moveset of walking around using his one and only means of attack in 15-20 different ways to constitute a full Smash moveset! Isn't that almost but not quite as full of flavor and diversity as what Jigglypuff, the current least complex Smash design, can do? Buy today!

Yeah, that's appealing to no one. The only way he gets in is if his basic design is so re-imagined that he's pretty much not the same character anymore. Remember we've already had Waddle Dees in Smash. They were a King Dedede accessory just like Toad is a Peach accessory. Unlike Toad, who in the newest game is a more prominent Toad accessory, Waddle Dee was unimportant enough to disappear from King Dedede's moveset. I can't promise for sure anyone is or is not in so maybe serious Kirby favoritism will win the day for him, but of all common suggestions, Bandana Waddle Dee strikes me by far as the least likely and frankly the worst decision they could make. He's impossible to sell to people who were not already Kirby fanatics; that's instantly disqualifying or at least sure should be.

 

[Lady Byakugan]

Sega has a lot of awesome dead IPs that would make great trophies or Assist Trophies. NiGHTS, Jet Set Radio, Skies of Arcadia, and Monkey Ball all have colorful, unique casts that would at least make lovely trophies.

Hell, it would be great to have someone like NiGHTS or Beat be playable but Sega is just such a cool company that manages their dwindling IPs SO WELL that they’re all basically emaciated corpses floating in formaldehyde that they drag out for the ocassional cart racer or tennis match. Except I guess they’re not even doing that anymore now.

Why so many wonderful, creative IPs had to be wasted on a company like Sega is beyond me.

Let's hope for a Sega All Stars Battle.