Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Radical Bones]

That's everything from storyboard to final mix. That's chump change, lol.

I'm a video coordinator for a retail company in Australia and I have to churn out 20 product videos a month on my own: scripts, storyboard, editing, all of it. Thanks god I didn't major in animation haha.

 

[Knight Dude]

So which character would better fit in as DLC or in the base game. You should give reasons for your picks. Only 5 can be in the base game. Then choose another 5 (to make it hard) for DLC. You can only make one of these characters a echo. Only the one listed below is eligible; I tried including everyone I know. Sorry if someone you liked was overlooked.

The rest will sadly be converted to Trophies :D..... :D!

- Geno
- Sora
- Shadow
- Tails
- Isaac
- Bandanna Dee
- FE Three Houses
- Dixie Kong
- Pheonix Wright
- Gen III Pokemon Rep
- Gen VIII Rep
- Spring Man / Ribbon Girl
- Rex and Pyra
- Elma
- Banjo and Kazooie
- Skull Kid
- Vaati
- Tetra
- Dante
- Dr. Egg man
- Terra ( FF 6)
- Kefka (FF 6)
- Sephiroth (FF 7)
- Black Mage (FF)
- Rayman
- Travis Touchdown
- Chorus Kids
- Lloyd
- Crash Bandicot
- Leon (Resident Evil)
- Heihachi (Tekken)
- Chun-Li (SF)
- Octolings
- Shantae
- Steve
- Marx (Kirby)
- Porky (earthbound)
- Hades (KI)
- Isabelle
- Amaterasu
- LiP
- Mach Rider

Base: Geno, Tails, Heihachi, Elma, Dixie

DLC: Spring Man, Blaziken, Chun-Li, Isaac, Crash

2/10. Super easy. But it lacks extra Mega Man characters I would throw the rest into the pit for. I'd swap Crash out for one if possible.

Next guest character will probably be Daenerys or Arya Stark. Just to fit the theme...

Crossovers do seem to be the rage recently. Injustice 2 with Sub-Zero, Hellboy, TMNT, etc. MK with Jason, Alien, etc. Tekken with Noctis and Negan. Smash though is a different entity entirely and I fully support it being seen as “Video Game: The Game” by celebrating both the history of Nintendo and gaming in general. So yeah, I’m down with iconic but non-Nintendo characters getting in. Just proves how big Smash actually is.

This whole decade has been crossover city. Some just make more sense than others.

 

[Shroob]

...to A or B?

That's for you to decide

 

[BlueMagician]

The only themes that Tekken holds dear are the realistic body proportions (by fighting game standards, anyway; they're still idealized, but they aren't cartoonish) and not taking itself seriously unless it's a Mishima/Kazama character.

It just still seems so out of left field. I want to find the one guy somewhere who actually wished that Negan was in Tekken and congratulate him on getting the most specific, out-of-left-field gift anyone has ever received.

You mean this guy?

Negan from The Walking Dead

— Miran Bikhan (@miranbikhan) April 17, 2017

Get to congratulating.


And geez, I was happy with just Smash Ballot...

 

[Guybrush20X6]

So did I miss anything last night?

Besides Dark Zero Suit Samus? (or would that be Zero Suit Dark Samus?)

 

[SirCamp]

This is way late, as per usual for me, but I figured I'd put my two cents about Fire Emblem representation out there into the aether, particularly because I don't think I've seen anyone communicate it before. Also before I say anything I just want to note that I don't have anything against Fire Emblem. I do think it faces a somewhat unique issue when it comes to Smash representation in particular though.

Anyway I think that the problem with FE representation, and why it seems to cause such a schism, is that characters from Fire Emblem are difficult to represent in a way that feels fully unique to people who aren't familiar with the franchise (myself included, though I do hope to change that soon). And what I mean by that is that personality play a very large role in how Fire Emblem characters are perceived. To someone who only plays Smash, there may as well not really be a difference between Marth, Lucina, Roy, and now Chrom apart from gender and the odd flame effect (keeping in mind that I imagine a lot of casual fans may not even know about the tipper mechanic). Those fans know nothing about what the character has done, what their personality is like, what their history is and that seems to be a huge part of what makes the characters feel important and unique. But to everyone who has played the games, the characters are obviously different, because they have context. This is basically a long winded way of saying they care.

Take a different game with a ton of characters like Pokemon for example, and I think the differences are pretty apparent. Even if you don't know much of anything about Pokemon, every character from Pokemon will have a wildly different silhouette and their moves will be wildly different because of how typings work, so even though they don't have a particular personality to them the casual fan immediately recognizes why those characters are different and potentially deserving of a slot. That's an extreme example, but I think it fits. Especially given that Smash Bros as a series is a game that includes characters that in general a extremely visually distinct, often even when from the same series. Take Star Fox for another example, and even though every character started as a sort of semi clone and may not always feel super distinct mechanically, you can still differentiate very very well on a surface level because one is a bird and one is a fox and one is a wolf. Fire Emblem on the other hand, every character is a human, with similar-ish builds, in the same anime-ish style, and many use swords. And so, to people who lack context for the characters, they feel much more similar, they begin to blend together, and thus begin to feel less individually necessary.

This is a huge reason that people advocate for new characters to have polearms or axes or magic, even beyond just the actual gameplay that might entail (because let's be real an axe user could really end up playing exactly like Ike already does). It's a very simple way to communicate that this character is different. This character has something going on, at least on a surface level, that other Fire Emblem characters don't. It makes them feel meaningfully different, even if perhaps they really aren't all that mechanically distinct when you break it down.

I think this is a problem people would also have with other series like say Mother if we were to continue to get characters like Ninten, Paula and so on. But I think this is a huge problem for FE in particular because it's a big series and there are just so many potential characters to add that in general don't recur with a visual style that is very similar between characters (note this is not a bad thing overall). Add to that that the most popular choices seem to be lords (which correct me if I'm wrong tend to default to swords?) and people who aren't familiar with the characters start to groan. This seems to be something that could theoretically be remedied by different character selections (maybe a sword user, a lance user, an axe user, a mage, and a dragon), but we all saw what happened when Chrom wasn't included in Smash 4 so it doesn't seem like there's a great way to keep fans of FE happy while also including characters that feel meaningfully different to casual fans.

But the TLDR of this, for those that really enjoy Fire Emblem and who advocate for more Fire Emblem characters, is to just keep in mind how much of what you love about a character requires context to understand. What makes FE characters different is simply less immediately apparent to people who don't already know them. Believe me as someone who wants Isaac in this game, the number of people who assume he would be just like a Fire Emblem character is astounding and he isn't even from the same game. This is frustrating, but also understandable. And unfortunately Sakurai has to keep these people in mind as well, because ultimately he needs to make the game as broadly appealing as possible.

EDIT - this thread grew two pages while I was typing this monstrosity...

 

[Captain Fun]

Ayyyy I just bought Aria of Sorrow yesterday. I'm hoping the Don't Wait Until Night remix includes Heart of Fire to resemble Julius' boss theme

I'm thinking it will. The original Don't Wait Until Night is just slightly repetitive.

The Julius boss version was remixed in Harmony of Despair, titled "Heart of Fire." Not sure why they can't keep the name straight though. Several songs were seemingly re-titled in Smash too.

 

[Pakky]

So, as far as villains go, off the top of my head

Skull Kid

Porky

Black Knight

Plasma Wraith (It's in the whole series kinda and only follows Olimar)

Medusa/Hades

Captain Syrup

Eggman

Deathborn



Also if Ninten gets in I'm thinking a mix of with a dash of is the best outcome.

 

[Enchess]

That's for you to decide

Ok, I think this is my cue to go to sleep haha. See you all tomorrow. May your suns be golden and your frames be fatal.

 

[villager]

Something I was thinking about in relation to future of Smash Bros...

While the next game definitely can't top Ultimate in terms of sheer content, something it can do to garner positive fan response is continue Ultimate's trend of adding characters from all eras of Nintendo history. People have never been so excited to speculate about Smash Bros, thanks to reveals like Ridley and K. Rool showing that old rules can be broken and fan demand can be listened to. In terms of viable additions for future games, you have

• One-offs from long running series (franchises like Zelda especially benefit from this; instead of 3 Links we could get the likes of Midna or Vaati)
• Newest representations of on-going series that change cast each game (Fire Emblem, Xenoblade and Pokemon)
• New IPs as they come out
• Former assist trophies in two categories
  • 3rd Party Characters: Alucard or Mega Man X would make fantastic fighters, and if they had to swap out Belmont or Mega Man in a future game they'd be fantastic options
  • First or 2nd Party Characters: If they gain relevance like Little Mac, or even just including characters who are still popular. Lyn, Waluigi, Isaac, etc come to mind

If they tear off the band-aid of "not all 80 characters are turning" fast enough and make up for it with "the new additions are all exciting" I think people could accept it.

I think Smash Ultimate may be the last smash game, or "true" smash game ever. That's not to say there won't be more after, but I think they won't have the Smash name and focus on an entirely new set of characters from scratch. Then Nintendo can slowly add characters to excite people that Mario is joining the fray.

With Smash Bros, Mario's inclusion is unexciting and a given, and his moveset is once again unchanged. In a new "smash" they could start off fresh with entirely different movesets, mechanics, etc. I definitely think this is going to be Nintendo's next step for the future of monetizing the smash formula some years after smash ultimate has run its course.

If people don't like it, Nintendo could always just bring back Smash for a 6th time.

 

[SirCamp]

So, as far as villains go, off the top of my head

Skull Kid

Porky

Black Knight

Plasma Wraith (It's in the whole series kinda and only follows Olimar)

Medusa/Hades

...Rudy the Clown?

Eggman

Deathborn



Also if Ninten gets in I'm thinking a mix of with a dash of is the best outcome.

Oh my god, you did not just disrespect Captain Syrup like that! lol But seriously Syrup > Rudy

 

[Zinith]

So, as far as villains go, off the top of my head

Skull Kid

Porky

Black Knight

Plasma Wraith (It's in the whole series kinda and only follows Olimar)

Medusa/Hades

...Rudy the Clown?

Eggman

Deathborn



Also if Ninten gets in I'm thinking a mix of with a dash of is the best outcome.

Kamek and/or Boshi

 

[Noipoi]

So, as far as villains go, off the top of my head

Skull Kid

Porky

Black Knight

Plasma Wraith (It's in the whole series kinda and only follows Olimar)

Medusa/Hades

...Rudy the Clown?

Eggman

Deathborn



Also if Ninten gets in I'm thinking a mix of with a dash of is the best outcome.

Captain Syrup

Octoling

Taxes

 

[Pakky]

Oh my god, you did not just disrespect Captain Syrup like that! lol But seriously Syrup > Rudy

Oh my god...

You're right, I'm sorry, I love her, editing!

 

[SirCamp]

Also, of course my treatise on Fire Emblem characters got immediately buried by a new page lol

 

[Knight Dude]

So, as far as villains go, off the top of my head

Skull Kid

Porky

Black Knight

Plasma Wraith (It's in the whole series kinda and only follows Olimar)

Medusa/Hades

Captain Syrup

Eggman

Deathborn



Also if Ninten gets in I'm thinking a mix of with a dash of is the best outcome.

Dr. Wily, him and Eggman could both pilot mechs, and likely share some moves if need be.

Akuma would be fairly easy to make since he shares many moves with Ryu.

I agree with Captain Syrup, there's potential with a pirate character. And Black Knight does look cool, though unless he also uses his spear too, he'd have to be really unique to interest people.

 

[DevaAshera]

Is anyone else sick of every Pokémon newcomer being either one from the newest Gen or one (or more) from Gen 1?

It's part of why I really want this Gardevoir leak to be on to something...aside from it being my fav. Pokémon..it would mean other gens actually have a chance.

 

[Shroob]

So, as far as villains go, off the top of my head

Skull Kid

Porky

Black Knight

Plasma Wraith (It's in the whole series kinda and only follows Olimar)

Medusa/Hades

Captain Syrup

Eggman

Deathborn



Also if Ninten gets in I'm thinking a mix of with a dash of is the best outcome.

I never understood the "Goolix+Waterwraith = Plasma Wraith" theory.


The Goolix needs a nucleus, it's like a giant amoeba, and there are multiple Waterwraiths iirc.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

I'm thinking it will. The original Don't Wait Until Night is just slightly repetitive.

The Julius boss version was remixed in Harmony of Despair, titled "Heart of Fire." Not sure why they can't keep the name straight though. Several songs were seemingly re-titled in Smash too.

I sure hope Heart of Fire is in the Castlevania music in some way, its my second favorite song from the series after Wicked Child, and I was a little disappointed to not see it among the 34 songs (though the selection is still amazing, and modding will fill up the Heart of Fire hole regardless).

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Also, of course my treatise on Fire Emblem characters got immediately buried by a new page lol

oh, sure. you know me.

i'm game for another FE Character provided that...
1) They're an echo of another character for fanservice/increasing the coverage of games (Celica fits the bill, Eliwood WOULD HAVE, Lief would be a fencer, etc)
2) They're a highly unique character, even if it's from a repeat game, as long as it's not Awakening (Azura would be a great companion to Robin, Hector could use his axes, Celica/Alm could have a tag in/out mechanic, etc)

and it wouldn't shaft other series from getting ignored.

 

[Noipoi]

Is anyone else sick of every Pokémon newcomer being either one from the newest Gen or one (or more) from Gen 1?

It's part of why I really want this Gardevoir leak to be on to something...aside from it being my fav. Pokémon..it would mean other gens actually have a chance.

It sucks but that's how it is, you're either gen one or you're promoting the new gen.
Now hypothetically Sakurai could go through the whole Pokedex to find interesting concepts for a fighter, it wouldn't even be hard Pokemon is full of unique characters, but I don't think he would. He's already got so much on his plate he'd probably just pick a character out of the ones Gamefreak already presented to him, and that's most likely a gen 7 Pokemon.
Now I loved Gen 7 so I have no problem with this, but it sucks for the other gens.

 

[osby]

Also, of course my treatise on Fire Emblem characters got immediately buried by a new page lol

I've read it, it was very interesting.

Personally, I'm a JRPG fan, so subtle differences between Fire Emblem characters are a given to me but it's obvious some people who are used to more diverse designs in Mario or Pokémon have a problem with it.

I also think there isn't really a solution. Robin was more distinct for Smash fans but Fire Emblem fans wanted Chrom. An axe user would be unique but there is little sense making one, considering a lot people didn't even found Robin or Chrom unique.

Though, non-FE fans hardly saw anything in the series beside "anime swordfighter", starting from Marth, so I don't think there is not much point trying to win them after this point.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Taxes

Truly making the theme of this game Heroes vs. Villains.

 

[Pakky]

This is way late, as per usual for me, but I figured I'd put my two cents about Fire Emblem representation out there into the aether, particularly because I don't think I've seen anyone communicate it before. Also before I say anything I just want to note that I don't have anything against Fire Emblem. I do think it faces a somewhat unique issue when it comes to Smash representation in particular though.

Anyway I think that the problem with FE representation, and why it seems to cause such a schism, is that characters from Fire Emblem are difficult to represent in a way that feels fully unique to people who aren't familiar with the franchise (myself included, though I do hope to change that soon). And what I mean by that is that personality play a very large role in how Fire Emblem characters are perceived. To someone who only plays Smash, there may as well not really be a difference between Marth, Lucina, Roy, and now Chrom apart from gender and the odd flame effect (keeping in mind that I imagine a lot of casual fans may not even know about the tipper mechanic). Those fans know nothing about what the character has done, what their personality is like, what their history is and that seems to be a huge part of what makes the characters feel important and unique. But to everyone who has played the games, the characters are obviously different, because they have context. This is basically a long winded way of saying they care.

Take a different game with a ton of characters like Pokemon for example, and I think the differences are pretty apparent. Even if you don't know much of anything about Pokemon, every character from Pokemon will have a wildly different silhouette and their moves will be wildly different because of how typings work, so even though they don't have a particular personality to them the casual fan immediately recognizes why those characters are different and potentially deserving of a slot. That's an extreme example, but I think it fits. Especially given that Smash Bros as a series is a game that includes characters that in general a extremely visually distinct, often even when from the same series. Take Star Fox for another example, and even though every character started as a sort of semi clone and may not always feel super distinct mechanically, you can still differentiate very very well on a surface level because one is a bird and one is a fox and one is a wolf. Fire Emblem on the other hand, every character is a human, with similar-ish builds, in the same anime-ish style, and many use swords. And so, to people who lack context for the characters, they feel much more similar, they begin to blend together, and thus begin to feel less individually necessary.

This is a huge reason that people advocate for new characters to have polearms or axes or magic, even beyond just the actual gameplay that might entail (because let's be real an axe user could really end up playing exactly like Ike already does). It's a very simple way to communicate that this character is different. This character has something going on, at least on a surface level, that other Fire Emblem characters don't. It makes them feel meaningfully different, even if perhaps they really aren't all that mechanically distinct when you break it down.

I think this is a problem people would also have with other series like say Mother if we were to continue to get characters like Ninten, Paula and so on. But I think this is a huge problem for FE in particular because it's a big series and there are just so many potential characters to add that in general don't recur with a visual style that is very similar between characters (note this is not a bad thing overall). Add to that that the most popular choices seem to be lords (which correct me if I'm wrong tend to default to swords?) and people who aren't familiar with the characters start to groan. This seems to be something that could theoretically be remedied by different character selections (maybe a sword user, a lance user, an axe user, a mage, and a dragon), but we all saw what happened when Chrom wasn't included in Smash 4 so it doesn't seem like there's a great way to keep fans of FE happy while also including characters that feel meaningfully different to casual fans.

But the TLDR of this, for those that really enjoy Fire Emblem and who advocate for more Fire Emblem characters, is to just keep in mind how much of what you love about a character requires context to understand. What makes FE characters different is simply less immediately apparent to people who don't already know them. Believe me as someone who wants Isaac in this game, the number of people who assume he would be just like a Fire Emblem character is astounding and he isn't even from the same game. This is frustrating, but also understandable. And unfortunately Sakurai has to keep these people in mind as well, because ultimately he needs to make the game as broadly appealing as possible.

EDIT - this thread grew two pages while I was typing this monstrosity...

So I actually read this and I agree.

FE guys like Hector (The one Lord with an axe) would be great additions just for some visual differentiation.

MOTHER, very well could have this problem but if it got more reps I think a divde would eventually happen with a character like Porky, Flying Man, Masked Man or Flint potentially.

This too I think is what makes FE 'unique' among the Smash family for better or for worse, becasue I cannot think of another large series with this particular issue.

Love your Avatar by the way, Monster Rancher 2 is my favorite game on the Playstation.

 

[Gumzilla]

Ok how about Bendy?

I know it's a long shot but I honestly don't think he'd look out of place with characters like G&W and Pacman! The only problem would be the alts. All I can think of is Gold Bendy from Bendy Nightmare Run.

 

[Noipoi]

Ok how about Bendy?

I know it's a long shot but I honestly don't think he'd look out of place with characters like G&W and Pacman! The only problem would be the alts. All I can think of is Gold Bendy from Bendy Nightmare Run.

He'll get in once Sans and Freddy Fazbear get in.

Spoiler

Never

 

[SirCamp]

So I actually read this and I agree.

FE guys like Hector (The one Lord with an axe) would be great additions just for some visual differentiation.

MOTHER, very well could have this problem but if it got more reps I think a divde would eventually happen with a character like Porky, Flying Man, Masked Man or Flint potentially.

This too I think is what makes FE 'unique' among the Smash family for better or for worse, becasue I cannot think of another large series with this particular issue.

Love your Avatar by the way, Monster Rancher 2 is my favorite game on the Playstation.

The ironic thing is I actually think the visual similarities that Fire Emblem has is actually a good thing from a general game design perspective. All of the Fire Emblem characters are very clearly from the same universe. If they weren't already so iconic, one might not know that Mario and Bowser come from the same games at a glance. Just a funny thing to think about.

 

[Zinith]

Captain Syrup

Octoling

Taxes

"Meme that overstayed it's welcome," we meet again!!!

 

[Pakky]

He'll get in once Sans and Freddy Fazbear get in.

Never.

The Batter from OFF keeps coming to mind because the one song from that game is sick.

"So are going to make an icon for him?"

"No..."

Maybe

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Ok how about Bendy?

I know it's a long shot but I honestly don't think he'd look out of place with characters like G&W and Pacman! The only problem would be the alts. All I can think of is Gold Bendy from Bendy Nightmare Run.

Bendy is so far off. Cuphead would be infinitely better.

 

[Headcrab Jackalope]

I never understood the "Goolix+Waterwraith = Plasma Wraith" theory.


The Goolix needs a nucleus, it's like a giant amoeba, and there are multiple Waterwraiths iirc.

The Plasm Wraith does kinda have a nucleus in one of its forms.

I do agree that the theory is a bit of stretch. It's certainly cool to think that this creature pursued Olimar in 3 different forms throughout the series, but it requires a bit of reaching to draw connections between those three forms.

That being said, the Plasm Wraith is absolutely still Olimar's nemesis and would be a great choice to fit a Heroes vs. Villains theme (though I doubt that's actually the theme for Ultimate). It looks and behaves completely different from any other Smash character, and its unique physical characteristics that allow it to change its size and shape at will would result in a very interesting moveset. And that's not even mentioning the fact that it can control the elements and create smaller creatures out of its own body mass. Plus it has a fire theme that I would love to see a remix of.

plasm wraith is my most wanted character if you couldn't tell

 

[StormC]

The point about FE is why I think certain characters like K. Rool and Ridley blow up so much. They don't exactly come from story-heavy games, but they have striking designs and you can easily see their appeal as a Smash fighter, and this goes for more cartoony/exaggerated characters in general. Characters like Shulk and Cloud are complex, multidimensional protagonists, but the overwhelming majority of that is lost in Smash when their character is boiled down to attacking with a few lines of dialogue. It's much easier to get people to care about characters with immediately striking designs and moveset potential than a well-written generic looking humanoid.

I'm a Cloud main in Smash 4 and the excitement I had for his inclusion was eclipsed only by K. Rool, if anybody wants to come at me for this.

 

[Pakky]

I never understood the "Goolix+Waterwraith = Plasma Wraith" theory.


The Goolix needs a nucleus, it's like a giant amoeba, and there are multiple Waterwraiths iirc.

In the main story, there is only one Waterwairth and its the only boss that stocks you from floor to floor.

Take it as an ascension of importance.


Secret Boss - unique Level boss(motivation hinted at) - Main final boss (Motivation made clear)

 

[YoshiandToad]

Got an interesting question for you all; starting off, is your most wanted newcomer still not revealed or already known to not be playable in Smash Ultimate? If so, and, this bring us to my main question, how do you think you'll feel about that newcomer's chances for a future Smash title?

Do you think this is their best shot? Do you think they'll be better off next time? Or do you think it's a now or never scenario? Would you prefer they get in Ultimate instead of a later game because this most likely the only time every single past veteran will be able to fight alongside them?

Part of the reason why I'm asking this is because I have some of these same thoughts about a few of my most wanted characters. And as I see more and more newcomer candidates with dedicated support bases get disconfirmed for Ultimate, I'm feeling a lot more sympathy for their fans than I used to. With few exceptions, I tried to least offered some condolences to those who really wanted some characters who failed to get in. But now, with this latest entry of Smash truly owning up to it's title with the return of all veterans, many of the most popular fan choices finally getting in as well, this most likely being the only time that will ever happen, and having no idea on when another new game in the Super Smash Bros. series will eventually release, I worry this may be now or never for some of my remaining most wanted characters, or at the very least, that they'll be missing out on the overall best Smash game yet, at least in my eyes. So even if they do get into a later installment, I'll still be overjoyed, yet I may still feel like something significant is missing from it all. And knowing all that, I'm sympathizing more with the fans of characters I've not really wanted or even cared about much more than I used to, as of late.

Welp, as a Captain Toad supporter, with his recent weird deconfirmation as a background hazard on New Donk City(which wasn't even announced just randomly slapped on the website's Stage page), I'm obviously very disappointed. Everything was going for him;

+Popular; whether you wanna admit it or not, Toad is a household name, and was one of the most wanted characters pre Melee.
+Recent game as the protagonist on the last console, a trait which Sm4sh seemed to use primarily as the source of who to include
+Said game was successful for a Wii U title, and has just had TWO ports instead of one so Nintendo must have some faith in it.
+Toad doing well enough in the polls to recieve a Mii outfit in Sm4sh which obviously has led to many characters getting upgraded to playable(Inklings, K. Rool, Chrom. Geno and Isabelle too if the leaks are correct)
+Seen by many as one of the few major missing Nintendo All Stars alongside Dixie, Isabelle and Waluigi.
+Has appeared in every major Mario 3D title since the super popular Galaxy including the MASSIVELY popular Mario Odyssey
+Has a future, if not in his own spinoffs(in case Treasure Tracker is a one off) in the main Mario games

Obviously Toad himself got upgraded from useless meatshield counter to a little more battle ready in Peach(and Daisy's moveset) but being able to sort of play as Toad for .5 of a second is a different beast to being able to play as Toad as a fighter. That'd be like if Chrom was now available for Robin's taunts as well as the Final Smash and expecting Chrom fans to be satisfied.

I feel like this was his best shot, and short of DLC now Captain Toad much like Meowth(whom I also supported since Smash 64) has missed his most oppurtune time because the rules for this game seem to have drastically changed from those games before them.

It's a bit disheartening leaving possible DLC as the last chance saloon, as it's obvious he's not going to make the base.

 

[MainJPW]

I think I can handle the death of another beloved character, but killing Yoshi would bring a tear to my eye.

Sakurai: Hey Yoshi, we agreed that you would be the perfect fit for our next reveal trailer for Monster Hunter!

Yoshi: pic.twitter.com/3MVxoF7Bla

— Lucbomber💣 (@The_Lucbomber) August 15, 2018

 

[DarkFalcon]

I think I can handle the death of another beloved character, but killing Yoshi would bring a tear to my eye.

Sakurai: Hey Yoshi, we agreed that you would be the perfect fit for our next reveal trailer for Monster Hunter!

Yoshi: pic.twitter.com/3MVxoF7Bla

— Lucbomber💣 (@The_Lucbomber) August 15, 2018

Skull Kid reveal trailer has Yoshi crushed by a giant moon.

 

[Pakky]

Welp, as a Captain Toad supporter, with his recent weird deconfirmation as a background hazard on New Donk City(which wasn't even announced just randomly slapped on the website's Stage page), I'm obviously very disappointed. Everything was going for him;

+Popular; whether you wanna admit it or not, Toad is a household name, and was one of the most wanted characters pre Melee.
+Recent game as the protagonist on the last console, a trait which Sm4sh seemed to use primarily as the source of who to include
+Said game was successful for a Wii U title, and has just had TWO ports instead of one so Nintendo must have some faith in it.
+Toad doing well enough in the polls to recieve a Mii outfit in Sm4sh which obviously has led to many characters getting upgraded to playable(Inklings, K. Rool, Chrom. Geno and Isabelle too if the leaks are correct)
+Seen by many as one of the few major missing Nintendo All Stars alongside Dixie, Isabelle and Waluigi.
+Has appeared in every major Mario 3D title since the super popular Galaxy including the MASSIVELY popular Mario Odyssey
+Has a future, if not in his own spinoffs(in case Treasure Tracker is a one off) in the main Mario games

Obviously Toad himself got upgraded from useless meatshield counter to a little more battle ready in Peach(and Daisy's moveset) but being able to sort of play as Toad for .5 of a second is a different beast to being able to play as Toad as a fighter. That'd be like if Chrom was now available for Robin's taunts as well as the Final Smash and expecting Chrom fans to be satisfied.

I feel like this was his best shot, and short of DLC now Captain Toad much like Meowth(whom I also supported since Smash 64) has missed his most oppurtune time because the rules for this game seem to have drastically changed from those games before them.

It's a bit disheartening leaving possible DLC as the last chance saloon, as it's obvious he's not going to make the base.

Honestly this feels like a Toon Link thing to me.

"Oh no he's in the background, guess he's not in the game..."

"JK fam here's his reveal trailer/update"

 

[Thirdkoopa]

It's much easier to get people to care about characters with immediately striking designs and moveset potential than a well-written generic looking humanoid.

YUP but also, Cloud really doesn't look like anyone on the roster. The Fire Emblem characters generally look (and play, for that matter) pretty similar, which ends up being the problem SirCamp pointed out - It'd be like if Pokemon only had electric rats. Heck, beyond my love for K. Rool, it's why I wanted K. Rool and Ridley before Dark Samus and Dixie - So people wouldn't say "wow, it's just variations of samus" or "wow, it's just a bunch of Monkey's".

My biggest thing about Smash at this point is I'm tired of hearing "could be unique" - I want to hear proven concepts. I want to be sold on an idea. With the inclusion of Ridley and King K. Rool, along with the return of every character, there's not really many characters I stand for anymore but the ones that I do I highly advocate. Hotter take than yours, but I'm glad we have three characters that are similar to Marth and two that are similar to Fox - they're fun characters and people enjoy playing as them. I'd much rather that than a newcomer tacked on the roster with jank in their moveset all over the place.

I know this post is all over the place but tl;dr: I prefer proven concepts or unique designs; a good mix is very good to showcase each series properly.

Also speaking of Pakky another Mother character is basically all but a pipe dream, but boy golly would I be up for helping Masked Man if people wanted to start campaigning that again. It's absolutely comical how much of a good add he'd be.

 

[osby]

The point about FE is why I think certain characters like K. Rool and Ridley blow up so much. They don't exactly come from story-heavy games, but they have striking designs and you can easily see their appeal as a Smash fighter, and this goes for more cartoony/exaggerated characters in general. Characters like Shulk and Cloud are complex, multidimensional protagonists, but the overwhelming majority of that is lost in Smash when their character is boiled down to attacking with a few lines of dialogue. It's much easier to get people to care about characters with immediately striking designs and moveset potential than a well-written generic looking humanoid.

I'm a Cloud main in Smash 4 and the excitement I had for his inclusion was eclipsed only by K. Rool, if anybody wants to come at me for this.

The problem is, there isn't much of a solution.

You can't expect JRPG fans to be satified with just Marth and Ike. On top of that Shulk, Cloud etc HAS unique designs (Cloud less so, since everyone copied from him) and do bring interesting movesets. It's just as you said, a lot easier to see the similarities between them.

I think it's fine getting a few, for people who will enjoy them.

 

[Gumzilla]

Honestly the main reason I proposed Bendy was because I think he would work to kill two birds with one stone: Represent horror and indie games. I avoided FNAF because a character from that series wouldn't fit, same with Baldi's, Spooky's, and a few other indie horror games. I mean I would use BatIM coming to the Switch as an excuse but a character appearing on a Nintendo console means nothing at this point. Plus a character made of ink leads for many creative moves! I can imagine Simon trying to slay him in a trailer because he's a demon which would be pretty cool! But again I know it's unlikely.