Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[TheLastJinjo]

I know this was a few days ago, but I have some questions about this Gardevoir leak that I need concrete answers to because the controversy is still happening all over the internet.
( papagenos , maybe you could help me out here.)

1. Why was this leak not brought sooner after or before the Nintendo Direct if it was in July?
2. Why do people think it's "obviously fake" if it's full of accurate claims?
3. Can someone explain to me what the controversy is about? Besides people emotionally not liking the idea or thinking they know better which characters are likely and which ones aren't, what about this leak seems "fake"? It's full of accurate information. It predicted Simon, Richter, King K. Rool, and Dark Samus, and that's EXACTLY what was confirmed in the August Direct.

 

[Will]

The day they remove customs is the day I demand Miis get a character overhaul. They were literally made to advertise customs in Smash 4, and IMO they deserved far better because they had a lot you could pull from their own games.

What do you think about the legality of the 4 new stages?

imo Moray Towers and New Donk City Hall are out of the question.

Great Plateau Tower might be banned due to the ceiling.

Dracula's Castle could become legal with hazards off but I need to see the whole stage. I think the left side is a walk-off though...

Moray Towers looks legal?

 

[Idon]

What do you think about the legality of the 4 new stages?

imo Moray Towers and New Donk City Hall are out of the question.

Great Plateau Tower might be banned due to the ceiling.

Dracula's Castle could become legal with hazards off but I need to see the whole stage. I think the left side is a walk-off though...

[Insert D1 banned]
I wish we toned down bringing back gimmicky stages and making new ones and got some good old legal stages for once.

 

[Zinith]

Kamek? Boshi?

Nah...

Dark Yoshi.

I think that's an OC somewhere in the deep internet...

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Sort of random, but is anyone else irrationally bothered by Alph not being made into an echo fighter?
The Koopalings work great as alts. They're perfect the way they are.

But Alph really feels like he's getting the short end of the stick. He isn't even in the big character artwork.
Simon and Richter barely look any different at all. Would it really be that tough to just give Alph like ONE difference and make him an echo? It just sorta bugs me for some reason.

no. No I do not.

What I do, however, feel cheated by is no Louie Echo. He definitely has enough personality to be an echo fighter. (He'd also need a final smash switch)

 

[Deleted member]

Sort of random, but is anyone else irrationally bothered by Alph not being made into an echo fighter?
The Koopalings work great as alts. They're perfect the way they are.

But Alph really feels like he's getting the short end of the stick. He isn't even in the big character artwork.
Simon and Richter barely look any different at all. Would it really be that tough to just give Alph like ONE difference and make him an echo? It just sorta bugs me for some reason.

This really bugs me as well, but sense I'm probably going to be flipping the echo switch anyway, I can at least pretend that he's an echo.

 

[Zinith]

The day they remove customs is the day I demand Miis get a character overhaul. They were literally made to advertise customs in Smash 4, and IMO they deserved far better because they had a lot you could pull from their own games.


Moray Towers looks legal?

No, the opposite. It's too big and encourages camping

 

[KMDP]

What do you think about the legality of the 4 new stages?

imo Moray Towers and New Donk City Hall are out of the question.

Great Plateau Tower might be banned due to the ceiling.

Dracula's Castle could become legal with hazards off but I need to see the whole stage. I think the left side is a walk-off though...

Actually, New Donk City Hall doesn't seem that bad, it doesn't have any hazards (at least not ones that interfere, if you consider the band a "Hazard"), and it's only got walk-off blast zones for a small bit of the match, and then it becomes as simple as Battlefield for a while.

Isn't Halberd considered legal despite having walk-offs before the transition?

 

[Buzzwole]

no. No I do not.

What I do, however, feel cheated by is no Louie Echo. He definitely has enough personality to be an echo fighter. (He'd also need a final smash switch)

I'd love to see Louie as an Echo, but it just feels weird having Alph in this weird limbo state.

 

[Will]

I think that's an OC somewhere in the deep internet...

Spoiler: Literally the first image that pops up on Google when you search it

[Insert D1 banned]
I wish we toned down bringing back gimmicky stages and making new ones and got some good old legal stages for once.

I know Sakurai is making a pinch of content that appeals more to competitive fans, but would he care about stage legality among all things when he already allowed you to play in Battlefield/Omega modes?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Customs were a great plan though. I loved the idea.

Great plan, not-so-great execution.

And just because it's in Smash 4 doesn't mean it won't get cut.

Oh come on, I feel it within me.

And I doubt it'll come back.

We'll see who's right.

I know, but would it be wiser to give the characters customs?

It'd be more insane to give customs to everyone and balance them.

You'd basically be trying to balance like, dozens of combinations per character.

You underestimate casuals. I am sure there are a lot of players who would want to unlock the moves.

We are getting customs. I know it.
You can probably use Customs in Classic Mode, other modes and maybe the "Spirits" mode.

Want? Yes.

Actually commit? Probably not.

 

[Buzzwole]

This really bugs me as well, but sense I'm probably going to be flipping the echo switch anyway, I can at least pretend that he's an echo.

I'm wondering if there's a way to individually toggle which Echoes are displayed separately. There are some I'd like to stack and some I wouldn't.

 

[AlphaSSB]

The reason 3 of them even made the game was because in their debut appearances they're easy clones.

Given that Smash being somewhat rebooted was on the table as an alternative to what's going on now with Ultimate, I wouldn't be surprised if Fire Emblem suffered substantial cuts depending on how small the roster got.

Marth would stay without question.

Chrom and Lucina would probably be the first to go due to being clones, despite their popularity within the Fire Emblem crowd.

Roy and Corrin would probably be next. Roy since he's a semi-clone, and then Corrin given that he wasn't the most warmly received character.

Robin and Ike could both stay in addition to Marth, depending on the roster size, but I'd have a hard time guessing who'd get cut first between the two of them. Robin represents Awakening, whereas Ike is one of the series' most popular characters if I'm not mistaken.

As for the Fire Emblem over-representation argument, I just want to see other series get some love.

 

[Nazyrus]

Smash really has never been very good with human faces. The more stylized characters are fine, but the realistically proportioned human characters never look quite right. They look a little better in Ultimate, but I'd say they still don't look all that good.
At least they fixed Link though, yeah.


Something does look off about some characters eyes though. Like here.

View attachment 158061

It's almost as if some characters are missing their… spirits…

 

[Zinith]

Actually, New Donk City Hall doesn't seem that bad, it doesn't have any hazards (at least not ones that interfere, if you consider the band a "Hazard"), and it's only got walk-off blast zones for a small bit of the match, and then it becomes as simple as Battlefield for a while.

Isn't Halberd considered legal despite having walk-offs before the transition?

Halberd has those, but also a low blast ceiling.

 

[CroonerMike]

Time to play find the render

Can you find how they got this skull kid pose?

How'd you make this.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

I'd love to see Louie as an Echo, but it just feels weird having Alph in this weird limbo state.

Louie as an Echo and adding more Alts to Olimar would be fine, I Think. Olimar and Alph really don't have much that can separate them. You can make the argument of "Rock Pikmin!" but last I checked, Olimar can use them too.

 

[Zinith]

Spoiler: Literally the first image that pops up on Google when you search it

I know Sakurai is making a pinch of content that appeals more to competitive fans, but would he care about stage legality among all things when he already allowed you to play in Battlefield/Omega modes?

Oh god, I've seen that before!!!

 

[Will]

I'm wondering if there's a way to individually toggle which Echoes are displayed separately. There are some I'd like to stack and some I wouldn't.

I'd say there will be a permanent way to stack specific things.

I don't know if you played the 3DS version as much as I have, but you know whats a weird glaring difference between Smash 3DS and Wii U? Smash 3DS always stuck to the alt you last used, but the Wii U version didn't. Why they did this is pretty dumbfounding. Did someone forget? Because if it was available on the technologically inferior version but not on the superior, whyyyyyyy?

 

[ZephyrZ]

You know what I'm really going to miss? Rock Smash. I'm a Charizard main at heart and part of that is that I just love the satisfaction of getting a super hard read. Zard's toolkit is just made for that. F-Smash, B-Air, Flare Blitz, Fly, and of course, Rock Smash. There's nothing quite like predicting a Fox's or Mario's Up-Smash on your landing and greeting it by smashing a boulder in their face. You've also just got to love the animation and concept of it. Zard pulls a massive boulder out of thin air, gives it a huge bear hug, and then just shatters it like its made of glass.

But you know what? I think I'll live without it. I'd take having Zard's old tag team partners back over that silly rock any day of the week. And besides, it's a bit harder to pull off, but I've been incorporating Fly's super armor into my gameplay more and more as of late, and when you get a kill with it, it's somehow even more satisfying than dealing a ludicrous amount of damage with Rock Smash.

And I just love Ivysaur's animations. Seeing her spring herself forward with her vines for her F-Smash is something really unique to her. It's the same with her up-tilt which is just a joy to look at. Her anime-inspired usage of vine whip is something only she can do and I'm really glad that Sakurai made the most of it. She's probably going to be my go-to mon for tournament matches.

Squirtle is probably the most boring of the three, but that new dash animation and F-smash really do help make an otherwise bland character stand out. It also helps that he's basically designed to cover all of Charizard's weakness, with great air mobility and a small body to help get out of juggle and combo situations Zard would be stuck in. I'm so pumped for my main to finally be viable in practically every matchup. It might mean my secondary Mewtwo might have to be taking a back seat from more serious play though, so like the loss of Rock Smash, this is a bit bittersweet.

I don't really have a point to this post, I just really felt like gushing about my main.

 

[Idon]

would he care about stage legality among all things when he already allowed you to play in Battlefield/Omega modes?

I don't expect things, but I hope for them.

 

[praline]

Wow, so many fake leaks... I love reading through these sessions, but they get boring since they all indicate the same three characters.

LOOOOOL

Don't worry, I read these every time

Prince Fluff before BWD or Marx or Magolor? Tell me another one.

This just in: Gardevoir retyped to grass.

That's a weird prediction. Did he get it from the official site, considering that it was confirmed last week?

---


I'm not gonna argue there. I would have loved to see a waterbending dancing spearman, and I love her name Goddess of Dawn and Dusk FTW. Pity she probably can't get anything more than an assist at this point. Speaking of, where are the FE assists?

Did you forget that Lyn was an assist trophy?

 

[KMDP]

Oh god, I've seen that before!!!

At least you aren't saying: "Oh god, I made that."

That would be the embarrassing thing.

 

[Will]

Louie as an Echo and adding more Alts to Olimar would be fine, I Think. Olimar and Alph really don't have much that can separate them. You can make the argument of "Rock Pikmin!" but last I checked, Olimar can use them too.

Pit can also use the Dark Staff and the Silver Bow in Uprising. Your point?
Alph is associate with Pikmin 3. Rock Pikmin are also associated with Pikmin 3. If you're gonna represent Pikmin 3 in the slightest through an Echo, Rock Pikmin would be the way to go.

You know what I'm really going to miss? Rock Smash. I'm a Charizard main at heart and part of that is that I just love the satisfaction of getting a super hard read. Zard's toolkit is just made for that. F-Smash, B-Air, Flare Blitz, Fly, and of course, Rock Smash. There's nothing quite like predicting a Fox's or Mario's Up-Smash on your landing and greeting it by smashing a boulder in their face. You've also just got to love the animation and concept of it. Zard pulls a massive boulder out of thin air, gives it a huge bear hug, and than just shatters it like its made of glass.

But you know what? I think I'll live without it. I'd take having Zard's old tag team partners back over that silly rock any day of the week. And besides, it's a bit harder to pull off, but I've been incorporating Fly's super armor into my gameplay more and more as of late, and when you get a kill with it, it's somehow even more satisfying that dealing a ludicrous amount of damage with Rock Smash.

And I just love Ivysaur's animations. Seeing her spring herself forward with her vines for her F-Smash is something really unique to her. It's the same with her up-tilt which is just a joy to look at. Her anime-inspired usage of vine whip is something only she can do and I'm really glad that Sakurai made the most of it. She's probably going to be my go-to mon for tournament matches.

Squirtle is probably the most boring of the three, but that new dash animation and F-smash really do help make an otherwise bland character stand out. It also helps that he's basically designed to cover all of Charizard's weakness, with great air mobility and a small body to help get out of juggle and combo situations Zard would be stuck in. I'm so pumped for my main to finally be viable in practically every matchup. It might mean my secondary Mewtwo might have to be taking a back seat from more serious play though, so like the loss of Rock Smash, this is a bit bittersweet.

I don't really have a point to this post, I just really felt like gushing about my main.

People who complain that Charizard should've remained as Solozard make my stomach feel not very good and then disintegrate.
You're a good lad.

 

[Nazyrus]

Skull Snake joins the fray.

Skull Snake…
or Solid Kid… oh wait that sounds wrong… lol

 

[Buzzwole]

Louie as an Echo and adding more Alts to Olimar would be fine, I Think. Olimar and Alph really don't have much that can separate them. You can make the argument of "Rock Pikmin!" but last I checked, Olimar can use them too.

By that logic, there's absolutely no reason Dark Pit should be an echo rather than an alt.
Rock Pikmin are from Alph's game so it'd be a nice little way to differentiate him.

All I'm saying is its weird that Alph is sort of being brushed over while others aren't.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Skull Snake…
or Solid Kid… oh wait that sounds wrong… lol

Solid Snake sounds wrong.

 

[Will]

Solid Snake sounds wrong.

Dude come on don't make fun of him, he's old.
and probably dead.

 

[Idon]

Louie as an Echo and adding more Alts to Olimar would be fine, I Think. Olimar and Alph really don't have much that can separate them. You can make the argument of "Rock Pikmin!" but last I checked, Olimar can use them too.

Last I checked, the only justification for echoes in the first place is that they're "easy to make" and "take little development time."

It's weirdly inconsistent when one similar character is an echo and another isn't.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Skull Snake…
or Solid Kid… oh wait that sounds wrong… lol

Even better: Skull Face.

 

[Mc.Rad]

Dang, even when you think the drought is over... it's really not...

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Pit can also use the Dark Staff and the Silver Bow in Uprising. Your point?
Alph is associate with Pikmin 3. Rock Pikmin are also associated with Pikmin 3. If you're gonna represent Pikmin 3 in the slightest through an Echo, Rock Pikmin would be the way to go.

That who becomes an Echo is based on personality and who actually has moves that can't be used by another character?

Dark Pit was about to be an alt costume like Alph, but his Final Smash had to be different. It's a similar case w/ Louie. He would probably be deemed to have to have a different Final Smash (I don't want to jump into Pikmin spoilers) and animations. The rest of the captains can really just be slotted w/ Olimar as costumes.

dgmw, Rock Pikmin are cool, but if there was a time for that to happen, it was probably in Smash 4. which it seems like they decided against. plus they could still give Rock Pikmin, if they really cared enough, to Louie anyways.

 

[monadoboy]

Ahem.
Casuals used customs.

I know they are coming back. Sakurai will probably balace.

Customs make Smash diverse.

Plus making them uniqe to the Miis is dumb.

I don't think that many casuals used them. It's almost impossible to get even half of them without extensive grinding.
The whole custom system in Smash 4 is the single worst thing I've seen in a Nintendo published game in the last decade, even ten times worse than XC2's gacha system.
It's an absurd, time consuming (for both devs and players) system that rewards you with janky, unbalanced, or straight up useless moves.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

What do you think about the legality of the 4 new stages?

imo Moray Towers and New Donk City Hall are out of the question.

Great Plateau Tower might be banned due to the ceiling.

Dracula's Castle could become legal with hazards off but I need to see the whole stage. I think the left side is a walk-off though...

New Donk City Hall = Mario’s Prism Tower + New York + Delfino Plaza + Sexy...will definitely be a legal stage

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Sort of random, but is anyone else irrationally bothered by Alph not being made into an echo fighter?
The Koopalings work great as alts. They're perfect the way they are.

But Alph really feels like he's getting the short end of the stick. He isn't even in the big character artwork.
Simon and Richter barely look any different at all. Would it really be that tough to just give Alph like ONE difference and make him an echo? It just sorta bugs me for some reason.

I think the reason behind him being a costume is similar to the Koopalings. The Pikmin are the basis of the move set and the only difference is who's controlling the Pikmin, or, who's riding the clown car.

So he could have at the very least added Rock Pikmin to the rotation to justify that.

 

[Arcadenik]

Louie as an Echo and adding more Alts to Olimar would be fine, I Think. Olimar and Alph really don't have much that can separate them. You can make the argument of "Rock Pikmin!" but last I checked, Olimar can use them too.

Yes. Olimar uses Rock Pikmin in the Pikmin games BUT he does not use Rock Pikmin in the Smash games. That's why people say Alph should be the one who uses Rock Pikmin in the Smash games.

 

[Opossum]

Actually, New Donk City Hall doesn't seem that bad, it doesn't have any hazards (at least not ones that interfere, if you consider the band a "Hazard"), and it's only got walk-off blast zones for a small bit of the match, and then it becomes as simple as Battlefield for a while.

Isn't Halberd considered legal despite having walk-offs before the transition?

The main thing I've been seeing as far as stage legality is that just because a stage was legal in the past, there's no guarantee it'll be legal now. Best example is probably Prism Tower. It was legal on 3DS but will likely be banned now due to the recurring walk off it starts with. It was legal on 3DS due to the dearth of legal stages there, but will likely be banned now because "better" options exist.

That's the main argument I've been seeing anyway. Hooray for needlessly limited stage selection! /s

 

[Thirdkoopa]

By that logic, there's absolutely no reason Dark Pit should be an echo rather than an alt.
Rock Pikmin are from Alph's game so it'd be a nice little way to differentiate him.

All I'm saying is its weird that Alph is sort of being brushed over while others aren't.

idk I don't find it that weird

iirc, he mentioned the final smash and side B somewhere. as someone that's played both uprising and pikmin, it makes enough sense to me. Basically, even though alt skins and Echo's take up little development time, Echo's are for characters with more personality differences and whatnot. I do realize this reasoning could end up getting blown out of the water - To me, it's a pattern right now, not a rule.

the real question is, where are the other Pikmin captains?!

Last I checked, the only justification for echoes in the first place is that they're "easy to make" and "take little development time."

It's weirdly inconsistent when one similar character is an echo and another isn't.

I guess I'm weird, but it makes a lot of sense to me lol (read above). They're still playable, so hey.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Did you forget that Lyn was an assist trophy?

Don't worry, I remember her. I also remember that every other series save DK has multiple assists. And that FE has three stages total.

When it comes to things other than characters, Fire Emblem isn't doing so hot. Still, the fact that it had more characters that Zelda (and the same number of unique movesets) is a bit on the unfair side in Zelda's direction, considering how much bigger of a series that is.

 

[Wyoming]

Prism Tower was legal? 3DS got the shaft hard, jeez.