Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[KMDP]

Decided to plug something I posted in the Isaac thread, since it's worth a wider audience.

Something people tend to not consider in Smash Speculation is the direction that Smash is taking with character picks.

What do I mean by this? Well...

There are seven types of character that are chosen for Smash games.

Obvious Picks​

These are the characters who should be in the game. It's mostly made up of classical main characters.​

(after Melee)​

​

Sensible Picks​

These are the character who you say: "Yeah, with [x] in, this makes sense". After the Obvious ones are picked, these become the no-brainers.​

(in Melee)()​

&​

Contemporary Picks​

Characters picked mainly because they are recent rather than any kind of staying power, after a while, these have a chance to become Sensible Picks​

ultcorrin:​

​

Sakurai's Pick​

This is the "Sakurai Weirdness" Category, made up of characters who might not have gotten in otherwise. Mostly, a lot of them require outside-the-box thinking to make work (generally the later ones). These are also the fabled "Retro Reps".​

&(&)(in Brawl)​

(because the fans were too afraid to ask for him)​

Developer Request​

Sometimes, characters are specifically requested by other developers, and sometimes Sakurai listens.​

​

“Characters of Convenience”​

These are character who just happen to fit a pre-existing mold, they probably wouldn't have gotten in without it.​

, all clones ()​

Fan Demand​

Characters who wouldn't have gotten in without the demand for them. Obviously, other characters have demand, but these guys are the ones who rely on it.​

(in S4)​

Smash 64 was made up mostly of obvious characters, with only Ness, Captain Falcon and Jigglypuff being the outliers (seriously, how many people didn't even know who Ness was before Smash Bros.?). Captain Falcon happened to fit the model made for the Dragon King tech demo, and Jigglypuff happened to be a moderately popular Pokémon who was similar in Body to Kirby.

Melee began filling in the blanks with Villains, the Princesses, and Characters who were going to be in 64 had it had a longer dev cycle (Marth and Mewtwo), the outliers are Ice Climbers and Mr. Game & Watch, both very old characters. When there was an increasing time crunch, a lot of clones were made.

Brawl continued filling in blanks with Wario (seriously, how many people said that Wario should have been in in Melee?). Pit was like Ice Climbers, an old character who hadn't been seen in years. Snake was specifically asked for by Kojima, and Sonic just made sense as Mario's biggest rival. Wolf was picked because he was convenient (Sakurai himself said that they had a choice between Wolf and Krystal, and picked Wolf because he was more similar to Fox and Falco and therefore took less work).

Smash 4's Newcomers were made up primarily of Contemporary Characters (Bowser Jr., Rosalina, Shulk, Wii Fit Trainer - who was also a weird pick), Villager should have been in Brawl (as many have said); Little Mac was chosen due to being popular in the West, with Mega Man being the obvious third party (how many people say Mega Man just feels like a Nintendo character?), PAC-MAN, like MG&W and R.O.B. has historical significance.

The name of Ultimate's game is Fan Demand, moreso than any other Smash Game so far, with all the obvious characters taken, it's only logical. Besides Splatoon, there weren't any new Nintendo IPs/characters that made waves before the project plan was done; ARMS came out after the plan was done.

Most of the Characters and Assists picked for Smash Ultimate were ones who did decently well on Fan Exit Polls, this is very noteworthy.

TL;DR, I think the reason why so many people were wrong about Smash 4's characters is because we all misunderstood what Sakurai and his team were going for with that game (they were shooting for general relevancy, rather than popularity; characters like Megaman were the exception, not the rule).

 

[Will]

The Kirby fanbase thought similarly after MK and Dedede got in, and look where we are now. View attachment 158043

That was before Return to Dreamland came out, though. I don't think that argument can work just as much as the DK one.

 

[DarkFalcon]

Yo tehponycorn I'm too lazy to quote the original post but I did see your comment in the 7th leak.

Also, I really don't want to keep talking about FE, but I'll address my stance on it one more time.

I know I personally don't dislike the FE characters because they exist or anything (although their designs are bar none the most bland in all of Smash for me), it's more so that FE gets so much attention compared to other series.

Now, this issue is thankfully being fixed to a degree in ultimate, but the fact that FE could receive 7 characters before DK or metroid could even get a third is just... wrong. People act as though FE is some enormously popular series when, although sells decently well, is actually Nintendo's 13th best selling franchise overall based on my research. However, DK and Metroid have finally been given some attention, so I'm better with it.

Now the fact that FE has more characters than Zelda is something that should NEVER happen. Zelda fans like me just want ONE newcomer, and its incredibly frustrating that FE, a series that's overall less popular, sells less, has more generic characters, and is somewhat hated by the community can crank out FOUR in the span of two games. Like, how do people not understand how that's frustrating?!?

So, yeah, I'm not upset that FE has the characters it doesn't, I'm just upset it's given priority over other, far more popular series.

Keep in mind 3 of them are easier to make clones (4 if you count semi clone Roy). They aren't taking slots from other series. It's not a choice between brand new character that's 100% unique or clone character that takes a fraction of the time.

 

[Momotsuki]

Now for a slightly remix'd version of my previous stage question. What are your favorite Omega/Battlefield form stages? It's all about looks this time. Mine are... heh, still Fountain of Dreams.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

That was before Return to Dreamland came out, though. I don't think that argument can work just as much as the DK one.

Yeah. Though it still won't stop people wanting Cranky Vs. Mario like the good ol' days and Funky New Mode, for starters.

Though having the core characters this time is enough to satisfy everyone until the next Smash, at least.

 

[Will]

yo hold up i just thought of a way to make the switch melt
8-player smash with stage morph

Yeah. Though it still won't stop people wanting Cranky Vs. Mario like the good ol' days and Funky New Mode, for starters.

Though having the core characters this time is enough to satisfy everyone until the next Smash, at least.

If it was, I don't think it'd be that large of a group like Rool and Dixie boys.
Of course the problem I see for them now that they're in is for them to survive the next game say 5-7 years down the line.

 

[Deleted member]

yo hold up i just thought of a way to make the switch melt
8-player smash with stage morph

And everyone picks Ice Climbers.

 

[Deleted member]

Main character from Doki Doki as a Mario Echo?

Why would Monika be a Mario Echo?

 

[Roberk]

And everyone picks Ice Climbers.

With Ditto

 

[KMDP]

And everyone picks Ice Climbers.

And you hack the game so the only Pokémon to come out of Pokéballs is Ditto.

 

[CodakTheWarrior]

Keep in mind 3 of them are easier to make clones (4 if you count semi clone Roy). They aren't taking slots from other series. It's not a choice between brand new character that's 100% unique or clone character that takes a fraction of the time.

Very true, but even then I think the majority of people would rather see Dixie, Impa, or even Shadow as echoes more than a third FE echo.

 

[Will]

And everyone picks Ice Climbers.

With Ditto

I didn't know if you guys saw it, but I saw one of the stage morph footage have FPS slowdown in a transition.
Imagine how terrible it's gonna be if you have it constantly running on the biggest stages possible with hazards and high-spawning items. If you can control the rate of which specific Pokemon pops out, **** I wouldn't be surprised if the game crashes.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

yo hold up i just thought of a way to make the switch melt
8-player smash with stage morph


If it was, I don't think it'd be that large of a group like Rool and Dixie boys.
Of course the problem I see for them now that they're in is for them to survive the next game say 5-7 years down the line.

I think they'll be able to make it, assuming a Diddy fanbase-style migration occurs in the interim. Whether K. Rool and Dixie can survive any possible roster cuts though, now that will be the real challenge.

Also, slow down there buddy, the Switch was made in China!

 

[Will]

Very true, but even then I think the majority of people would rather see Dixie, Impa, or even Shadow as echoes more than a third FE echo.

Actually I'm fine with Chrom because if you look at how it was done in the end, Chrom was robbed of his spot by Lucina.
was pretty upsetti he never got his chance four years ago because he did, and then he didnt, and then it got stolen by someone who wasnt meant to get a chance in the first place.

 

[PSIguy89]

Sad thing is, given enough time and effort the entire (current) FE cast could be made to stand out from each other gameplay wise, I have no doubts of this. But yeah, to anyone who knows little to nothing about FE....smash does not do a good job lol

 

[DarkFalcon]

Very true, but even then I think the majority of people would rather see Dixie, Impa, or even Shadow as echoes more than a third FE echo.

Chrom was requested quite a bit in the Smash 4 days. Even was meme'd to death, but the others you mentioned are still very possible. Especially Dixie and Shadow. Echoes are just ways to get characters that people want into the game without going through too much trouble of coming up with movesets and having to balance them too much.

I actually haven't seen many people that upset with Chrom. I mean yea there's the people who don't care about fire emblem and are like "another Fire Emblem character screeeech", but it seems like most people are fine with Chrom because they felt he should have been in the last game.

 

[MBRedboy31]

I didn't know if you guys saw it, but I saw one of the stage morph footage have FPS slowdown in a transition.
Imagine how terrible it's gonna be if you have it constantly running on the biggest stages possible with hazards and high-spawning items. If you can control the rate of which specific Pokemon pops out, **** I wouldn't be surprised if the game crashes.

Are the biggest stages actually the most demanding? I’d imagine stages like Fountain of Dreams could be more demanding, depending on if the reflection works in 8-player (they haven’t talked about if anything gets removed from stages in 8-player like they do in Smash for Wii U yet.)

I wonder how. I hope the work is divided between the CPU and GPU, by the way. Would it be possible to create lag in just the CPU by creating a situation where tons of hit boxes and hurt boxes are interacting all at once, especially on a stage with a lot of stage hurtboxes (like Hanenbow or Skyworld?)

 

[Deleted member]

DaybreakHorizon

Do my eyes deceive me, or is there a leak that has Gardevoir without Gothitelle in there?
Someone's getting ballsy.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Dunno if anyone else has said it, but I'd much rather see Funky Kong as an echo of DK than Dixie as an echo of Diddy

 

[CrusherMania1592]

This is a pretty basic question, but what are your guys' favorite stage that we know of thus far? Mine is Fountain of Dreams, with New Pork City coming a close second place.

Fountain of Dreams, Fourside, and Temple

 

[Buzzwole]

Dunno if anyone else has said it, but I'd much rather see Funky Kong as an echo of DK than Dixie as an echo of Diddy

I'd like to see both, but I'd rather see Dixie.
As much as I love Funky Kong, Dixie just feels missing from the roster now. We've got DK, Diddy, and K.Rool. Dixie just belongs with those three. It feels weird without her.

I was opposed to having her as an echo because I think she deserves better than that, but as long as they give her a different recovery and change a bunch of her animations, I think she'd work as an echo.

 

[DarkFalcon]

Dunno if anyone else has said it, but I'd much rather see Funky Kong as an echo of DK than Dixie as an echo of Diddy

Would you like to give your reasoning?

 

[CodakTheWarrior]

Actually I'm fine with Chrom because if you look at how it was done in the end, Chrom was robbed of his spot by Lucina.
was pretty upsetti he never got his chance four years ago because he did, and then he didnt, and then it got stolen by someone who wasnt meant to get a chance in the first place.

Chrom was requested quite a bit in the Smash 4 days. Even was meme'd to death, but the others you mentioned are still very possible. Especially Dixie and Shadow. Echoes are just ways to get characters that people want into the game without going through too much trouble of coming up with movesets and having to balance them too much.

I actually haven't seen many people that upset with Chrom. I mean yea there's the people who don't care about fire emblem and are like "another Fire Emblem character screeeech", but it seems like most people are fine with Chrom because they felt he should have been in the last game.

I probably should have clarified this, but I'm actually one hundred percent ok with chrom. It's an echo plus people really did want him in. Really, the only animosity I hold towards it is until we get a Zelda newcomer. If we somehow end up with Skull Kid, my most wanted by far, then FE could get 20 characters for all I care, I'd be all for it. But, until then, I'd want to hold off on FE for now, I think most of us can agree 7 is enough, especially for base roster.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Why would Monika be a Mario Echo?

"Panic", not "Literature Club".
It's a common title thing in Japan meaning "heart-racing".
Kinda like "Ultimate" or "Revenge"

Though Monika invading Smash Bros and forcibly trying to get to the top of the tier list sounds like a good idea for a fan-fic.

 

[Deleted member]

Just because you're an Echo doesn't mean you're not a clone. Semi-clones are still clones (aka Roy/Chrom), just a different type of clone.

I know. I am saying there is not too many clones and they are fine.

let me think about that

hmmm

hmmm....

okay this one can stay.

Lucina has different mechanics like no tipper and Roy as a fire effect as well as different angles in his moves.

wow if only there were more than 3/7 whole characters that showed how unique and diverse it could be

Remember what LegendarySpiritTamer said about bolding? The big words also do not help.

Also they look different and have different properties. Moves are not the only picture of a character.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Why would Monika be a Mario Echo?

More to the point, why would anyone from DDLC even be viable when it hasn't even been anywhere outside of computers?

No, former Project M staff having made the game doesn't count as a reason.

"Panic", not "Literature Club".
It's a common title thing in Japan meaning "heart-racing".
Kinda like "Ultimate" or "Revenge"

Though Monika invading Smash Bros and forcibly trying to get to the top of the tier list sounds like a good idea for a fan-fic.

All that aside, having Imajin in would make sense. Although it'd be yet another blow dealt to the Captain Toad fanbase, if the guy who inspired the original Toad design got in first.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I find it hard to believe that Sakurai would completely ignore Isabelle.

She'd probably be the best casual pick for the roster, unique or not.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Would you like to give your reasoning?

I like Funky more than Dixie
And 1 character like diddy is enough. I couldn't stand a variation of diddy

 

[Krysco]

Holy **** there was genuine Galacta Knight discussion last Friday. Doubt he's getting in due to the MK palette but seeing actual discussion about him is awesome. Saw concern about his shield and while that is an issue (it doesn't have to act like the Links' shields but it'd look awkward while grabbing) I always found a bigger issue being his lack of a cape since that's required for Meta Knight's down special to make sense. Seeing as how echoes can have moves from other characters, I can see Galacta Knight possibly having Ike's Eruption as his down special. One of the moves GK does in his fights is stab his lance into the ground and cause a shockwave to appear.

Honestly, I'd be content with seeing GK appear as an assist trophy or even a boss in whatever that Spirits mode is. The MK palette was nice enough in Sm4sh and got even better in Ultimate and in 4, he even had a trophy.

 

[DarkFalcon]

I like Funky more than Dixie
And 1 character like diddy is enough. I couldn't stand a variation of diddy

Well I guess that means Dixie will have to be unique.

 

[Will]

Remember what LegendarySpiritTamer said about bolding? The big words also do not help.

Also they look different and have different properties. Moves are not the only picture of a character.

I'm not here 24/7. if I make my words big, I like to do it to emphasize a point

Moves are a lot of a character to just an average joe, their differences are pretty much the reason to exist nowadays, though Chrom seems to be the only one in my eyes. Lucina was an original alternate costume made character with a gimmick to make her different from Marth. Roy was promotional material and an easy swap, by the time he came back he actually did get a cleanup but is still a semi-clone at the end of the day. Chrom was considered an Ike wannabe but the Parallel Falchion is so small it does make sense to implement both movesets.

You have your opinions, I have mine. Agree to disagree.

 

[zeldasmash]

Actually I'm fine with Chrom because if you look at how it was done in the end, Chrom was robbed of his spot by Lucina.
was pretty upsetti he never got his chance four years ago because he did, and then he didnt, and then it got stolen by someone who wasnt meant to get a chance in the first place.

I do agree with you about the whole Lucina/Chrom thing. Sakurai chose Robin over Chrom due to him being more unique and Chrom being too similar to Ike or being too bland, which is fine, but then Lucina gets in for the same reasons Chrom didn't which baffles me.

I mean, Chrom is now in the game, but the whole decision was very confusing for me.

 

[DarkFalcon]

It can't be just me that noticed Peach looks really bad face wise in comparison to many of the other fighters.

 

[Will]

It can't be just me that noticed Peach looks really bad face wise in comparison to many of the other fighters.

I was focusing more on Chrom's half-baked face instead of Peach's.

 

[Zinith]

Decided to plug something I posted in the Isaac thread, since it's worth a wider audience.

TL;DR, I think the reason why so many people were wrong about Smash 4's characters is because we all misunderstood what Sakurai and his team were going for with that game (they were shooting for general relevancy, rather than popularity; characters like Megaman were the exception, not the rule).

Ah yes, I forgot that Earthbound never made it to Europe at the time.

 

[LetterO]

Got an interesting question for you all; starting off, is your most wanted newcomer still not revealed or already known to not be playable in Smash Ultimate? If so, and, this bring us to my main question, how do you think you'll feel about that newcomer's chances for a future Smash title?

Do you think this is their best shot? Do you think they'll be better off next time? Or do you think it's a now or never scenario? Would you prefer they get in Ultimate instead of a later game because this most likely the only time every single past veteran will be able to fight alongside them?

I think this is definitely Rhythm Heaven's best shot. What with Chorus Kids being scrapped from Smash 4 (most likely due to 3DS limitations) and the Gematsu leaks making them more popular, I think Sakurai still has his eyes on the franchise, and seeing as he's been returning to new ideas (Ditto, Chrom, Ridley, etc.), I think a rep from the franchise is a safe pick to make it in.

 

[Heracr055]

DaybreakHorizon

Do my eyes deceive me, or is there a leak that has Gardevoir without Gothitelle in there?
Someone's getting ballsy.

Can we please have people stop calling rumors "leaks?" It's a misleading distinction that really needs to be established imo

 

[Deleted member]

What does "over represented" even mean? Every single FE character in Smash is fairly popular, and even the less popular ones like Corrin are really unique. Complaints about FE characters is one thing that really, REALLY gets under my skin. The reason 3 of them even made the game was because in their debut appearances they're easy clones.

Can't remove Marth. Poster child of the franchise.

Ike? Not a chance.

Robin? Fairly unique and represents the revival of the franchise.

Roy? Was popular in Melee and people wanted him back in Smash 4.

Lucina? Incredibly popular and was an easy clone choice.

Corrin? Marketing for the new game, and despite not being as popular, is by far the most unique FE character.

Chrom? Was heavily requested in the last game, so they added him here as an echo.

If you change your stance to "Well, they don't play differently enough!" Then you're changing the argument to something completely different.

Thank you. Every Fire Emblem character is perfectly added and I see nothing wrong with them.They may have similar moves, but they are different and make us love Fire Emblem in Smash Bros. There is not too many Fire Emblem characters and plus, the ratio to the total character roster is smaller in Ultimate than in Smash 4.

 

[blazefan519]

It can't be just me that noticed Peach looks really bad face wise in comparison to many of the other fighters.

The echoes have really only been the only models that made me raise my eyebrow (Dark Samus being the exception).

 

[KMDP]

Ah yes, I forgot that Earthbound never made it to Europe at the time.

Not only that, but there were a lot of Americans who had no idea who Ness was.

Mainly because of Earthbound's shoddy Ad Campaign.