Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Will]

So then which is it? Is Vergeben legit or is he just stealing other people's leaks and everyone's believing he made the claims?

I don't think you know how this works. Verg gets his claims by other sources, not from his own findings. He's the outlet for others in the industry who risk losing their jobs. At least that's what they want you to believe.

 

[Noipoi]

As a Decidueye supporter, I've come to accept that Incineroar is probably in the game, and think he would be really fun and animated.

It would be great to have a wrestling match with K. Rool. Ironic because K. Rool is a western character who fights like a sumo wrestler and Incineroar is a Japanese character who fights like an American wrestler.

The animations are what made me love Incineroar in the first place. When the Alola starters leaked in June 2016 I was pissed, how could my emo cat evolve into another fire/fighting type? But then four months later when they officially revealed him and I saw much of a goof he was in his animations I loved him immediately.
It's the same with K Rool, I never cared about him before but when I saw how much of a freak he was I started to warm up to him.

Though Decidueye would be fine too, and I really like Lycanroc as well. In fact a lot of people sleep on Lycanroc even though it's got a pretty good shot at Smash.

 

[Remmy-ro]

The thought about a new Zelda character like skull kid or Midna gives me life. I'd also like another square character like a FF protagonist or Sora but I wouldn't hold my breath for that one

 

[StormC]

As a K. Rool supporter I don't really put a lot of stock into the supposedly DK-themed room Sakurai had at E3, or THE END?

Red eye could have been a hint, but we'll never really know for sure. Bloody Tears and K. Rool together is awfully suspicious, though.

 

[Deleted member]

I honestly hate the fact people will dismiss Isabelle and other characters like her simply for being new despite the fact she's still far more popular and prominent than any other AC by a large margin.

 

[Pyra]

So then which is it? Is Vergeben legit or is he just stealing other people's leaks and everyone's believing he made the claims?

Vergeben "has sources". Those sources have either been "correct" or totally wrong.
As far as anybody knows, Isabelle and Simon came from the same "source".

The benefit of having multiple sources is that if you're ever wrong, you can just cut ties to the source that made you wrong.

So as far as Verg, who knows. He got Simon right, so, if there's no shenanigans going on, it follows that Isabelle is probably also true.

As far as I care though, people can be spoon fed mixed information lol

 

[PolarPanda]

I'm starting to buy the leak explained in @papagenos ' recent video. I'm not exactly saying it's 100% true, but it makes a lot of sense when you think about it.

Only thing I'm skeptical about is his "Mario2 / Geno" prediction, though I'd definitely like Geno or Paper Mario so I wouldn't complain either way.

Alright, let's compare.
Here are the facts you have to believe in order to think the Gardevoir/Gothitelle leak is real:
1) The leaker managed to steal a Switch demo unit; we're long past the era where demos have to be on discs/cartridges. They're typically stored on demo consoles.
2) Nobody noticed the unit being stolen, or are inexplicably being hush-hush about it, even though this sort of thing is bound to make headlines on gaming news.
3) The leaker happens to be a skilled data miner.
4) Sakurai lied about Simon being the new character and Richter being the Echo, and instead, Simon was a last-minute Echo and Richter was planned all along.
5) That entire newcomer trailer was thrown together as a result in order to make Simon a bigger focus than Richter, even though it's arguably the one with the most effort put into it.
6) When compiling the demo, the developers decided to scrub just Simon and Chrom (who also wasn't in the leak) from the files, but either decided to leave in Richter, Gardevoir, Gothitelle, Dark Samus, and K. Rool, or just couldn't be arsed to get rid of them after having gone to the effort to get rid of Simon and Chrom.

Here are the facts you have to believe in order to think the Gardevoir/Gothitelle leak is fake:
1) Richter was a lucky guess.

Which sounds more reasonable?

Addtionally, LoZ18 himself apparently thinks the CEO/Gardevoir + Gothitelle leak is BS. It just doesn't make much sense at all and seems completely fake. Richter really wasn't impossible to guess considered there was ANOTHER 4chan leak guessing Richter but was also wrong because it guessed K Rool was an AT.

 

[Kuon]

I hate to tell you this but the simple fact I'm talking about Isabelle when I don't like the character is just one example of her being talked about simply because she was on Verg's leak.

Regardless of her popularity within the Animal Crossing fanbase, this isn't an Animal Crossing forum

True, it's not, it's a general discussion about Smash Ultimate. And we're talking about potential newcomers in Smash Ultimate, with Isabelle is one of them, just like how people have been talking about Skull Kid and the Pokémon newcomer. So what's the problem?

 

[RandomAce]

I guess i'm not a lot of people then, I love Incineroar! Who doesn't want to smell what the 'Roar is cooking?

I liked it at first.

But then I realized he was the final evolution of Litten, I got annoyed. It looks like a doofus as the final evolution of the more serious looking Litten, but I still like it.

Although it’s one of those characters where I like in general but I wouldn’t want to see it playable in Smash. He already seems to copy the Pyrokinetic attacks that a ton of other characters have and reuses the more Grappler-esk trope, even though I know we don’t have a designated wrestler he would feel like he has a similar playstyle to some of the heavyweight fighters that are already being in with 2/4 of the newcomers arguably being one added. I want someone like Decidueye, Sceptile, or Lycanroc for a change of pace, not to mention that they can use stuff that are barely seen in Smash that stand out a lot more than what Incineroar seems to bring.

 

[Noipoi]

The thought about a new Zelda character like skull kid or Midna gives me life. I'd also like another square character like a FF protagonist or Sora but I wouldn't hold my breath for that one

A Square character?
Like...I dunno...
GENO???

 

[Opossum]

I hate to tell you this but the simple fact I'm talking about Isabelle when I don't like the character is just one example of her being talked about simply because she was on Verg's leak.

Regardless of her popularity within the Animal Crossing fanbase, this isn't an Animal Crossing forum

People have been talking about Isabelle in the context of Smash ever since "Smash 5" discussion started post-Bayonetta. Hell, even before the announcement of Ultimate back in March, I've been calling her a lock on par with the Inklings.

Vergeben didn't kickstart the Isabelle conversations. It just got more people involved with them.

 

[Will]

But do you have an oil drum in that room? The plant is reaching, I don't even know what the thing on the shelf is supposed to be, and even rope ladders are hipster wall decorations. But that's a damn oil drum, lol.

Yeah I feel the same about the couch and pillows next to the chairs. I don't think that even means anything, I think it was just added there. Only a coincidence and nothing more for the couch, I say.

The books are also reaching. If it was about Skull Kid, the closest I think would be the Majora's Mask manga.

Looks nothing like it from what I see.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

People have been talking about Isabelle in the context of Smash ever since "Smash 5" discussion started post-Bayonetta. Hell, even before the announcement of Ultimate back in March, I've been calling her a lock on par with the Inklings.

Vergeben didn't kickstart the Isabelle conversations. It just got more people involved with them.

That's all I'm saying. She would be talked about, just not as much

I just think it's a little naive to think that Verg had no effect on the conversation

 

[monadoboy]

No matter how many good things about Incineroar I see I still can't get past the "this is the third time in a row a Fire starter is bipedal when it should've been quadruped" feeling. They're the same monstrosity as Delphox.
I'm riding the Decidueye train now that Mimikyu's gone.

 

[Kuon]

Vergeben "has sources". Those sources have either been "correct" or totally wrong.
As far as anybody knows, Isabelle and Simon came from the same "source".

The benefit of having multiple sources is that if you're ever wrong, you can just cut ties to the source that made you wrong.

So as far as Verg, who knows. He got Simon right, so, if there's no shenanigans going on, it follows that Isabelle is probably also true.

As far as I care though, people can be spoon fed mixed information lol

Oh they may be from the same source, huh? Then that could possibly help her chances. Of course, he could be lying about his sources and could have just taken a guess at Simon

 

[dezeray112]

As a Decidueye supporter, I've come to accept that Incineroar is probably in the game.

I feel the same.

 

[Deleted member]

Must say I am surprised nobody tried to calculate the amount of music we have versus what could be left.

He mentioned over 800 songs for stages: and we saw the number of songs a few series will get and that number excludes menu themes and fanfare. Not to mention the songs we heard for the E3 build, on the website, and what logically would be on a few stages due to prior precedence.

If we have a good number of songs unrevealed, that could hint at new franchises being represented perhaps.

For funsies, let's do this:

Confirmed in the direct (Note that the new counts are based off of the numbers from Smash 4, and assume all songs return (unlikely)):
25 songs (8 new songs)
14 songs (2 new songs)
39 songs (8 new songs)
17 songs (3 new songs)
2 songs (0 new songs)
10 songs (4 new songs, hopefully we get Step Dance this time)
20 songs (6 new songs)
11 songs (0 new songs)
2 songs (0 new songs)
36 songs (30 new songs, one of which had better be Guile's Theme)
13 songs (Assuming the Namco Arcade music is filed under PAC-MAN, 3 new songs, otherwise 10)
34 songs (34 new songs technically...)
97 songs (Assuming the Namco Arcade music is filed under PAC-MAN, 31 new songs, otherwise 24)

That's 320 songs already, meaning the remaining franchises fill out 480+ songs.

If all songs from Smash 4 return (unlikely), the missing franchises fill out another 249 songs, and the missing Metal Gear music brings that up to 258. This leaves 222+ songs. This number does not include any new remixes confirmed on the website, or featured in the character trailers, nor does it include the songs cut from Brawl to Smash 4 (Except Metal Gear). Even if all of those were included, there would still be a lot of blank space. Zelda and Mario had a ton of music in Smash 4 (combined they total 106 songs).

I don't think any useful information about franchise representation can be determined at the moment. Could they fit another franchise in with these numbers? Absolutely. Could the remaining space just be for more Mario/Zelda/Pokemon music? Maybe.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Skull Kid doubters how would you feel if he was confirmed?

Mostly indifferent. The main issue that the Skull Kid with Majora's Mask has is that he's not exactly a recurring character in the mainstream titles, and may likely meet the same fate as Midna and Ghirahim again.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I think people would be talking about her anyways since she's a missing AT and pretty much all the missing AT's are being hyped. Need I remind you of poor Ashley

I was occasionally mentioning her as a newcomer contender along with Captain Toad, Dixie, Paper Mario, Isabelle, Ashley and Bandana Dee for much of pre-E3 speculation mainly because of how big she's become as a Nintendo character since her debut.

 

[ErenJager]

Hey, I'm on the side of Vergeben and I hope he's right. I trust what he's saying much more than loz18 or any of the others. But it's still true that Stealth and Emily Rogers said some of the same things Vergeben said before he did. IIrc, Emily said that there'd be no cuts (or everyone would be back, one of the two), and I can't quite remember what Stealth said. I think it was Simon. But even still, Vergeben got some stuff right that not many people were predicting

Verge has yet to independently leak something first, and it come true. There are other leakers who leaked the info first.

Besides that everything has been safe and predictable. Isabelle was being predicted as an echo pretty quickly after the first direct.

 

[vaanrose]

That's all I'm saying. She would be talked about, just not as much

There will still debates about Isabelle before Verg. When Verg leaked her, the immediate reaction was that he was picking yet another character everyone was already assuming was in.

 

[Kuon]

I don't think you know how this works. Verg gets his claims by other sources, not from his own findings. He's the outlet for others in the industry who risk losing their jobs. At least that's what they want you to believe.

Yeah, I haven't really given too much about legitimacy of leakers until this game, so yeah I don't really know too much about this process of leaks. I'm still choosing to believe

 

[Luminario]

But with how much stuff they're putting in the game already, do you think want to dedicate all that extra time making 8 playable Animal Crossing characters when they could just make one with different outfits?

...good point. I mean, it's only a hypothetical situation we're diescussing anyway. If it was up to me I would have added in like 3 AC characters already, but Isabelle is the only one I believe has an actual shot at Ultimate's roster.

See, this is the issue with that idea. Who the **** is Coco? And I've never seen the superhero villagers.
I've been playing AC ever since the GameCube for more than 200 hours each game and I don't know them. There's bound to be too many people who would end up with 8 or more unknowns. Best to use Isabelle or the guys everyone knows and love.

Coco's the rabbit that looks like a Gyroid, the superhero villagers are Kid Kat, Agent S, Bip Top, and the like. They're like mythological villagers, you're lucky to even get one in your town at a time. Again this isn't a likely situation, just fun speculation.

 

[WingedSupernova]

“Don’t touch my mayor, you punk”
View attachment 157814

Isabelle as a yandere is my new headcanon and nobody is taking this from me.

 

[StormC]

I sorta foresee an interesting reversal from Smash 4.

Fan favorite, longterm characters were neglected over newer ones who had big games recently during the design document.

Now those fan favorites are being put in over characters that would have been relevant to the design document.

If Elma, or Isabelle, or a RH character misses out, will the narrative be that Smash Ultimate neglected the new stuff too much and only focused on the old?

 

[Pyra]

A Square character?
Like...I dunno...
GENO???

Square, huh?
Wait... the shape of the pillows...

 

[Blue7113]

Alright, let's compare.
Here are the facts you have to believe in order to think the Gardevoir/Gothitelle leak is real:
1) The leaker managed to steal a Switch demo unit; we're long past the era where demos have to be on discs/cartridges. They're typically stored on demo consoles.
2) Nobody noticed the unit being stolen, or are inexplicably being hush-hush about it, even though this sort of thing is bound to make headlines on gaming news.
3) The leaker happens to be a skilled data miner.
4) Sakurai lied about Simon being the new character and Richter being the Echo, and instead, Simon was a last-minute Echo and Richter was planned all along.
5) That entire newcomer trailer was thrown together as a result in order to make Simon a bigger focus than Richter, even though it's arguably the one with the most effort put into it.
6) When compiling the demo, the developers decided to scrub just Simon and Chrom (who also wasn't in the leak) from the files, but either decided to leave in Richter, Gardevoir, Gothitelle, Dark Samus, and K. Rool, or just couldn't be arsed to get rid of them after having gone to the effort to get rid of Simon and Chrom.

Here are the facts you have to believe in order to think the Gardevoir/Gothitelle leak is fake:
1) Richter was a lucky guess.

Which sounds more reasonable?

Addtionally, LoZ18 himself apparently thinks the CEO/Gardevoir + Gothitelle leak is BS. It just doesn't make much sense at all and seems completely fake. Richter really wasn't impossible to guess considered there was ANOTHER 4chan leak guessing Richter but was also wrong because it guessed K Rool was an AT.

And that’s the tea sis

 

[masterluigi1]

Oh they may be from the same source, huh? Then that could possibly help her chances. Of course, he could be lying about his sources and could have just taken a guess at Simon

That seems like an awful lot of "guesses" to be correct on all of them

 

[Kuon]

Verge has yet to independently leak something first, and it come true. There are other leakers who leaked the info first.

Besides that everything has been safe and predictable. Isabelle was being predicted as an echo pretty quickly after the first direct.

So you're saying after the first Direct (E3), people were claiming that Isabelle would be playable as an echo? Or were they hoping she would be?

 

[Remmy-ro]

A Square character?
Like...I dunno...
GENO???

Oh yeah forgot about him. I never played Mario RPG so I don't have any attachment to Geno though I would still love it if he got in.

 

[Iridium]

No matter how many good things about Incineroar I see I still can't get past the "this is the third time in a row a Fire starter is bipedal when it should've been quadruped" feeling. They're the same monstrosity as Delphox.
I'm riding the Decidueye train now that Mimikyu's gone.

I know this is not one of the 3 Pokémon you're referring to, but what do you think about Typhlosion? Not necessarily bipedal like the others, but I wonder what's your opinion.

 

[Sharkarat]

Isabelle is a really popular character from a very popular franchise (with only one fighter). The only reason she isn't a shoo-in is that she's a pacifist from a non-fighting series, which makes it kinda hard to predict sakurai.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

But do you have an oil drum in that room? The plant is reaching, I don't even know what the thing on the shelf is supposed to be, and even rope ladders are hipster wall decorations. But that's a damn oil drum, lol.

Wooden barrels yes. Last I heard it was a wooden barrel in the picture, and so if instead it's an oil drum...how is an oil drum "Clearly Donkey Kong" themed?

I think that's my issue with this direct background theory...it's definitely not "Clearly Donkey Kong". That would have bannanas and vines, etc. Is it not a typical office, sure, but it doesn't even feel jungle themed to me, let alone Donkey Kong. #asking a gay about interior design

(Another reason it's reaching...no one after seeing that direct went "OMG he's in a Donkey Kong themed room!" Again this is why, even though I hate to say it, I give more credit to the chairs because people are actually attributing it to something before a reveal)

(EDIT: One more thing! (I was serious about that interior design joke) Those items all fit perfectly with that room (the wood wall, color of walls and furniture), so it couldn't have been Sakurai just picked a barrel and rope ladder. Are we saying the entire room was designed for a "hint". Because that's bull that I don't believe. God I can't believe this is me in Smash speculation right now XD)

 

[Idon]

Mostly indifferent. The main issue that the Skull Kid with Majora's Mask has is that he's not exactly a recurring character in the mainstream titles, and may likely meet the same fate as Midna and Ghirahim again.

The issue is, the "recurring" trait only applies to Link and Zelda (or dumb joke characters like Tingle or Beedle)
Not even Ganondorf remains consistent with his personality, appearance, and fighting style changing every game. Ganondorf is recurring in name only.
Not to mention Sheik is a forgettable one-off side character who has become a Smash staple purely on the basis that she got in early.

 

[Noipoi]

I liked it at first.

But then I realized he was the final evolution of Litten, I got annoyed. It looks like a doofus as the final evolution of the more serious looking Litten, but I still like it.

Although it’s one of those characters where I like in general but I wouldn’t want to see it playable in Smash. He already seems to copy the Pyrokinetic attacks that a ton of other characters have and reuses the more Grappler-esk trope, even though I know we don’t have a designated wrestler he would feel like he has a similar playstyle to some of the heavyweight fighters that are already being added with 3/4 of the newcomers arguably being one. I want someone like Decidueye, Sceptile, or Lycanroc for a change of pace, not to mention that they can use stuff that are barely seen in Smash that stand out a lot more than what Incineroar seems to bring.

Personally iv'e learned to love Incineroar as a separate Pokemon, rather than part of Litten's line.
And while Decidueye or Lycanroc would be a little more interesting, and i'd be fine with their inclusion, I am 100% biased because Incineroar was my Alola starter and I want to play as it.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

There will still debates about Isabelle before Verg. When Verg leaked her, the immediate reaction was that he was picking yet another character everyone was already assuming was in.

Yeah, but I still don't see how I'm wrong in assuming that people talk about Isabelle more with a credible leaker mentioning her.

 

[Ace C.R.O.S.S.]

Skull Kid doubters how would you feel if he was confirmed?

Indifferent, because i don't care too much about skull kid in Smash, but i wouldn't be angry if he enters in.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

If Elma, or Isabelle, or a RH character misses out, will the narrative be that Smash Ultimate neglected the new stuff too much and only focused on the old?

Yes, people will complain about that (Hey, at least we won't have to deal with accusations of "Japan Bias" now that we got , amirite?). You can say that this fanbase is unpleasable, but it's not as if it's exactly a hivemind in terms of wants and desires.

 

[Will]

Isabelle is a really popular character from a very popular franchise (with only one fighter). The only reason she isn't a shoo-in is that she's a pacifist from a non-fighting series, which makes it kinda hard to predict sakurai.

I still stick with this reason as well. I get people go "iTS SmAsH wHo cAReS?" but if this wasn't really an issue, why do we have instead of British Zelda?

Yes, people will complain about that (Hey, at least we won't have to deal with accusations of "Japan Bias" now that we got , amirite?).

"Sakurai's only appealing to Americans!!! Where's my anime swordsman REEEEEEEEE"

 

[Pyra]

Yeah, but I still don't see how I'm wrong in assuming that people talk about Isabelle more with a credible leaker mentioning her.

This is pretty much what I was saying before. Haha.
It's definitely something to think about.

I'm positive she'd be talked about more, just without the context of Vergeben being apparently what makes her the most likely nowadays.

Which... doesn't really make sense.