Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[osby]

Hopefully he did well on the ballot. I'm sure Kirby characters did fairly well in general, so maybe Sakurai took notice and got the little spear wielder in.

And hopefully with hybrid clones being a thing with Chrom, that means Dixie is likelier now too

Chrom having a common humanoid build makes him comparing to any character who hasn't hard.
I'm not going to make an assumption like 'if they can put this clone, they also can put this' because it didn't worked for Wolf last time.
That being said, I hope Dixie gets in, I need her to kick K.Rool's tail.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I think it's funny in all the reaction video's to character reveals, people keep on thinking it's Subspace Emissary.

I think if we had a mode like that, Spirit for example, it would be announced in a direct and not a singular trailer

 

[osby]

But if Bandanna Dee has the popularity why would Sakurai hesitate? Fates hadn’t even released when he included Corrin so that was probably where the hesitation came from, along with the 5 other characters from the series in the game (while Kirby only has 3)

Corrin is really an exception. After DLC characters consisting only of veterans and guests, there were probably a desire to put a character from a new Nintendo game. His moveset was the final push that allow him overcoming series balance concern.
Bandana Dee has moveset, popularity and would help series balance (though some people may have a problem with DK having less fighters). Only major thing holding him back is being one of new kids.

 

[Shroob]

What I want to know about the last Direct is how did soo many people assume that:

Screen shaking = K.Rool

I saw soo many people say "King....?!" or "It's K.Rool!" instantly before the Heroes vs Villains thing even came up.


Like with the Ridley thing it was pretty obvious since it was being set in a space station, but did everyone just assume we were going to get K.Rool as the surprise at the end?

 

[Impa4Smash]

Chrom having a common humanoid build makes him comparing to any character who hasn't hard.
I'm not going to make an assumption like 'if they can put this clone, they also can put this' because it didn't worked for Wolf last time.
That being said, I hope Dixie gets in, I need her to kick K.Rool's tail.

I meant in terms of basing Dixie almost entirely on Diddy, but then giving her an up-B with her hair. Like how Chrom is based on Roy, but has an Ike-like move as well.

I’m just not confident in Dixie making it as an unique newcomer, and would be fine with her as a Chrom-like echo hybrid thing

 

[Jetsurge]

Does Pokemon really need a newcomer? It already has the most amount of characters in the game, the current focus of Pokemon is on gen 1 and Sakurai might want all the characters to be heavily requested ones.

 

[Noipoi]

What I want to know about the last Direct is how did soo many people assume that:

Screen shaking = K.Rool

I saw soo many people say "King....?!" or "It's K.Rool!" instantly before the Heroes vs Villains thing even came up.


Like with the Ridley thing it was pretty obvious since it was being set in a space station, but did everyone just assume we were going to get K.Rool as the surprise at the end?

I didn't think it would be K Rool, I just thought "Something big is coming..." And I mean, K Rool is big so I was right!

 

[Impa4Smash]

What I want to know about the last Direct is how did soo many people assume that:

Screen shaking = K.Rool

I saw soo many people say "King....?!" or "It's K.Rool!" instantly before the Heroes vs Villains thing even came up.


Like with the Ridley thing it was pretty obvious since it was being set in a space station, but did everyone just assume we were going to get K.Rool as the surprise at the end?

Clearly the shaking was from the hype train, which could only mean one thing

 

[Noipoi]

Does Pokemon really need a newcomer? It already has the most amount of characters in the game, the current focus of Pokemon is on gen 1 and Sakurai might want all the characters to be heavily requested ones.

Need? Probably not.
But I want it.

 

[Jetsurge]

What I want to know about the last Direct is how did soo many people assume that:

Screen shaking = K.Rool

I saw soo many people say "King....?!" or "It's K.Rool!" instantly before the Heroes vs Villains thing even came up.


Like with the Ridley thing it was pretty obvious since it was being set in a space station, but did everyone just assume we were going to get K.Rool as the surprise at the end?

It sounded like a cannon from a ship and the Klaptrap assist trophy got peoples suspicions up. Also screen shaking makes you think villain and K. Rool was the first one people thought of.

 

[osby]

Does Pokemon really need a newcomer? It already has the most amount of characters in the game, the current focus of Pokemon is on gen 1 and Sakurai might want all the characters to be heavily requested ones.

Pokémon doesn't need a newcomer but I think Gen 7 deserves a bit more than just Pokeballs.
Though their chances are very slim.

 

[Impa4Smash]

Does Pokemon really need a newcomer? It already has the most amount of characters in the game, the current focus of Pokemon is on gen 1 and Sakurai might want all the characters to be heavily requested ones.

From a business standpoint adding a new Pokémon is a no-brainer

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

What I want to know about the last Direct is how did soo many people assume that:

Screen shaking = K.Rool

I saw soo many people say "King....?!" or "It's K.Rool!" instantly before the Heroes vs Villains thing even came up.


Like with the Ridley thing it was pretty obvious since it was being set in a space station, but did everyone just assume we were going to get K.Rool as the surprise at the end?

I have no idea. It's what I thought too. I just knew it was going to be K Rool,

It just seemed like it was going to be K Rool.

 

[StormC]

Corrin is really an exception. After DLC characters consisting only of veterans and guests, there were probably a desire to put a character from a new Nintendo game. His moveset was the final push that allow him overcoming series balance concern.
Bandana Dee has moveset, popularity and would help series balance (though some people may have a problem with DK having less fighters). Only major thing holding him back is being one of new kids.

Being new wouldn't hold him back as he was pretty popular on the ballot (at least in Japan), what would hold him back is Sakurai still pretending like any Kirby games except the four he directed don't exist.

 

[osby]

Being new wouldn't hold him back as he was pretty popular on the ballot (at least in Japan), what would hold him back is Sakurai still pretending like any Kirby games except the four he directed exist.

Firstly, we don't know how well he did exactly.
Second, Sakurai directly referenced Kirby's Epic Yarn in DLC period last game. I don't think a person pretending something doesn't exist would do that.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I think Sakurai just knew specifically what signs to show for the characters' fans to know what character was coming

I knew it was Ridley immediately and I knew it was K Rool before the trailer even started.

I'm sure if it was a character I was unfamiliar with I probably wouldn't get it right away. Like if Isaac is announced, I would have no idea what was going on.

 

[PSIGuy]

I got a weird bit of speculation.

How likely would it be that individual little groups are working on Echo fighters within the games dev team? I thought back to how the Electroshock arm allowed Dark Pit to become an echo fighter. I think it's possible that maybe there's just tiny groups making their dream echo fighter in the dev team. I think that might explain some of the discrepancies between the Echo fighters polish.

We already have specific examples of individual developers managing to get things included thanks to their hustle. Zero Suit Samus's alt costumes were implemented thanks to a "female staff member" or something according to Miiverse. I think a lot of the first or second party Echoes definitely would get in this way. If dev staff wanted Corrin in I'm sure plenty would want to include Chrom or Dark Samus or even new characters like Malos or Octoling. And they're listening to fan requests more than ever this Smash. That "most wanted characters" article from a Japanese news site also had a Echo/Dash Fighter equivalent.
Here. If the dev team weren't already thinking of them I'm sure they're considering them heavily now. Shadow, Chrom, Ken, Jeanne and Dark Samus... They're practically already confirmed.

 

[Noipoi]

Pokémon doesn't need a newcomer but I think Gen 7 deserves a bit more than just Pokeballs.
Though their chances are very slim.

You think a new Pokemon is unlikely? It's not guaranteed, but I think a new Pokemon always has a 50-60% percent chance of getting in. Just because it's a new Pokemon and Gamefreak likes advertisement.

 

[StormC]

Firstly, we don't know how well he did exactly.
Second, Sakurai directly referenced Kirby's Epic Yarn in DLC period last game. I don't think a person pretending something doesn't exist would do that.

Sakurai said they were working on an Epic Yarn stage and then it became Woolly World. Where did they draw from for the Kirby stage? Super Star, not Return To Dream Land. Every Kirby stage in Smash comes from a Sakurai game. Assist Trophies as well. The man is determined to maintain his legacy.

Bandana Dee is almost certainly the most voted Nintendo newcomer in Japan after K. Rool, going off available data. Perhaps it's enough for Sakurai to change his mind. Maybe not. We'll find out in four months.

 

[Impa4Smash]

Sakurai said they were working on an Epic Yarn stage and then it became Woolly World. Where did they draw from for the Kirby stage? Super Star, not Return To Dream Land. Every Kirby stage in Smash comes from a Sakurai game. Assist Trophies as well. The man is determined to maintain his legacy.

Bandana Dee is almost certainly the most voted Nintendo newcomer in Japan after K. Rool, going off available data. Perhaps it's enough for Sakurai to change his mind. Maybe not. We'll find out in four months.

I mean Bandanna Dee was technically created by Sakurai, right? Appearing in Superstar. He just didn’t really become the Bandanna Dee we’ve come to know and love until post-Sakurai Kirby

 

[Darkraid]

There's new Pokemon in every Smash game.

 

[StormC]

I mean Bandanna Dee was technically created by Sakurai, right? Appearing in Superstar. He just didn’t really become the Bandanna Dee we’ve come to know and love until post-Sakurai Kirby

Yep, he was a disposable joke character in Megaton Punch. I doubt Sakurai thinks of him as "his" character. He didn't get a spear until way after.

 

[papagenos]

What I want to know about the last Direct is how did soo many people assume that:

Screen shaking = K.Rool

I saw soo many people say "King....?!" or "It's K.Rool!" instantly before the Heroes vs Villains thing even came up.


Like with the Ridley thing it was pretty obvious since it was being set in a space station, but did everyone just assume we were going to get K.Rool as the surprise at the end?

I literally say K Rool as soon as I saw the screen shake in my reaction video.

I think i just figured it meant someone "Heavy" was coming and with sakurai tweeting about "red eyes" I was thinking K Rool/Ashley/Shadow/Geno/Simon (bloody tears) going into the direct and the ONLY one of those whos heavy and shakes the screen like that would be K Rool.

 

[Impa4Smash]

Yep, he was a disposable joke character in Megaton Punch. I doubt Sakurai thinks of him as "his" character. He didn't get a spear until way after.

I think Sakurai would include him if the fans demanded. Smash is just as much his baby as Kirby so I don’t think he’d leave Dee out just out of pride.

Plus, this is really the first game where Dee is viable. His spike in popularity definitely happened after Smash 4 development began

 

[StormC]

Honestly, Ashley being an AT (again) set a bit of a precedent for this game. I sorta wonder if Bandana Dee falls in her category; notable and promoted, but sort of a side character in the big scheme of things (fourth most important Kirby character... but still a bit of a side character nonetheless, doesn't have a playable sidequest like Dedede and Meta Knight, for example). Ridley and K. Rool were the main villains of their franchise and the two most requested characters overall. So it's hard to say what's going to happen from here. At least, BDee didn't get hurt on the ballot with an AT role in Smash 4.

I would like to see Dee make it. It would be nice for Sakurai to swallow his pride and acknowledge Kirby post-2003. But I'm just not sure, honestly. 50/50.

 

[UberMadman]

Here’s a discussion point I’ve been wanting to bring up for a while: I personally believe the chance of Dixie Kong being in this game is higher than ever, even though she wasn’t in King K. Rool’s trailer. The main reason for this is Dark Samus not being in Ridley’s trailer, and yes, I do know the counteragrument to this: “but Dark Samus hasn’t really fought Ridley before, while Dixie Kong has fought King K. Rool on two separate occasions!” Please hear me out.

The reason that Dixie Kong didn’t appear in King K. Rool’s trailer is that she didn’t fit the theme of the trailer they were going for, much like Dark Samus didn’t fit the theme of the Ridley trailer. To start with Dark Samus, the idea of the Ridley trailer was that Samus’ friends would slowly be picked off one-by-one by Ridley, leaving her alone to face him by herself, reinforcing the theme of isolation that is very common in the Metroid titles. Dark Samus wouldn’t fit because she couldn’t possibly be one of Samus’ allies for obvious reasons, and having her present as an enemy would diminish the focus of Samus in a one-on-one battle against her arch nemesis, as well as diffuse the tension when the viewer is waiting for Ridley to arrive.

With all that in mind, I think a lot of people are missing the two important themes of the King K. Rool trailer. The first and bigger theme of the trailer is how it plays on King K. Rool’s long-term absence and sudden return, as well as meta-commentary on how the Smash fanbase has wanted his return for so long. While that is interesting and warrants its own post, (which I might do at some point because that trailer was simply brilliant,) this isn’t the part of the trailer that Dixie’s presence would clash with. She would instead contradict with the second, more minor theme of the trailer: it is framed largely around nostalgia for the first Donkey Kong Country game in particular. First of all, throughout the entirety of the trailer, Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong are always at each other’s side, just like in the original Donkey Kong Country. Donkey Kong in particular is not playable in any of the games that Dixie is in, so having her alongside Donkey Kong under any context would break Donkey Kong Country “rules”; furthermore, another DKC “rule” is that there are always two Kongs playable and not three, so they wouldn’t want to have her alongside both Donkey and Diddy at the same time either. Even at the end of the trailer, Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong both choose to collide with King K. Rool’s punch at the same time instead of just Donkey Kong doing so alone, reinforcing the concept of 2 vs. 1 that is present across the entire series. Finally, the last bit of gameplay we see is Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong celebrating the “defeat” of K. Rool only for him to come back and stomp on them both, which is specifically a reference to the end of the first Donkey Kong Country and not the second or third, since the first game is the only one in which K. Rool attempts to pull this stunt.

TL;DR for this first part: Dixie didn’t show up in the King K. Rool trailer because they wanted to frame it like a confrontation from a Donkey Kong Country game, and the one they chose was the first one, where Dixie Kong is not present.

Now with all that in mind, there is no denying that Dixie Kong has been one of the most popular requests for Smash Bros. for years now. She is probably more requested than both Chrom and Dark Samus, and has definitely been a popular topic for longer than the former. She is also notable for the fact that she actually almost made it into Brawl, as Sakurai originally wanted her and Diddy Kong to be a DKC2-style duo until he realized he could not come up with a concept that made that work, and decided to cut her in favor of solo Diddy. Data for her still exists on Brawl’s disc to this day, so she must have had at least a little work done on her beyond just the conceptual stages, which means Sakurai probably had completed plans for her moveset. I doubt those thoughts have left his mind, and given both her popularity and the remnants of his plans for her, I would be shocked if Sakurai didn’t want to implement her in some capacity. Echoes seem like a good compromise, but then you realize that a Dixie that doesn’t attack with her hair in some capacity is just a shell of the character, so clearly an echo is out of the question.

At least, it seemed that way to us for a while, but two things happened that prove that an echo is well within the realm of possibility: the first was Nate Bildorff, and the second was Chrom.

Shortly after E3, Bill Trinen and Nate Bildorff conducted an interview with GameXplain in which they discussed Smash Ultimate. The first time I started to change my perception of what an Echo Fighter constituted as happened as I was listening to Nate’s response to a question, which I will both link and transcribe here:

Andre Segers: “Speaking of the roster, there is kind of like a new class of character almost, being the echo characters, or “echo fighters”. There seems to be some confusion, perhaps, as to what exactly classifies as an echo fighter, so what makes an echo fighter an echo fighter, because some might say... y’know, why isn’t Dr. Mario an echo fighter, or Pichu, or Young Link?”

Nate Bildorff: “Essentially, an echo character shares essentially the main attributes: walk and run speed, jump height, basic attack animations, general knockback. So, when you have Daisy and Peach, you’re gonna see those are largely the same. Somebody like Dr. Mario, who is heavier [sic], has much, much stronger knockback, has different moves, of course, he throws pills instead of fireballs, and now-”

Bill Trinen: “And the pills behave differently than the fireballs do, y’know; it’s not just like a cosmetic pill that’s doing the same things the fireball did before.”

Nate: “And he has a brand new down-a, which is a dunk.”

(Nate then goes on to talk about Dr. Mario’s new dair for a while with Bill.)

Nate: “...Again, he shares some of the attributes with Mario, but not any of the sort of global... so, that’s sort of the line that you can talk about. Same thing with Pichu; he doesn’t share all the attacks with Pikachu, he obviously hurts himself when he uses his main attacks, which is not the greatest thing, but that’s a rough roadmap for what an echo fighter is.”

The part that most intrigued me is that up to this point, I assumed the primary definition of echo fighter was “a character that shares all the move animations it has with the character it derives from other than the Final Smash and cosmetic animations like idles, taunts, or victory poses”; however, Nate instead began his response by putting emphasis on shared mobility and playstyle attributes. Yes, he did talk about how Dr. Mario and Pichu have moves that differ from their base characters, but he also put a lot of emphasis on Doc’s mobility issues and Pichu’s self-damage, aspects which I didn’t consider as being the reasons they were exempt from being echoes. Now, a thought crossed my mind: could a character that had largely the same basic playstyle with a couple of unique moves still be considered an echo fighter? I didn’t get my answer for a while, but now we all have it: yes, because Chrom exists.

Chrom is an echo fighter of Roy, and shares a majority of the moves Roy has, (though tweaked to lack a sourspot tip or sweetspot hilt just like Lucina,) as well as what appears to be the exact same mobility stats. However, Chrom has some of his attack animations changed to lack the reverse-grip Roy uses when wielding the sword, (at least in Chrom’s jab and forward-tilt,) and he has entirely different up-special which is derived from Ike instead, but tweaked a bit to match the animation Chrom has when attacking Lucina in the cutscene when he first meets her in disguise. These are significant changes compared to every other echo fighter on the roster, but the fact remains that overall, Chrom’s gameplan will not be significantly different than Roy’s, unlike Pichu or Dr. Mario. This is largely why I believe he is classified as an echo fighter and not them: mobility stats and knockback angles are more important to what determines an echo fighter than individual move animations or similarity in models.

Factoring in this information, I feel a Dixie Kong that has different grab/throw animations, a different Up-Special, and a cosmetically different neutral special but retains all the other attacks that Diddy Kong uses in the exact same capacity would still be classified as an echo fighter, and would be a relatively low-effort, high reward character for Sakurai to develop. She is right up there with
Isabelle, Shadow, and Ken as one of the most likely characters to become an echo fighter, in my opinion.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I have a feeling that good or bad we'll find out about Geno next time new Smash info is shown.

For better or worse, I'm sure Geno's current speculation is reaching the ears of the people in charge

 

[KMDP]

Recounting thread supporters has been such busy work (especially for me and Zinith ) that I missed a discussion about Isaac. I'd like to throw my hat into the ring.

Is Isaac support even as strong as it was during previous games? It feels like it's fading after a decade of steady support, not getting a sudden boom

Just a heads up, Isaac has gotten, like 40+ new Supporters in the last month, most of those in the last few days. This is much, much faster than any other character besides Skull Kid and Geno.

Not to barge in unannounced but you're letting your bias HEAVILY cloud your judgement. If anything Geno and Isaac have always been on even ground but looking back at the past Geno has been in and out of the public eye MULTIPLE times. Pre-Brawl he was a dark horse, then when Smash 4 picked up people jumped on board but then dropped him after Mega Man was announced (which was weird), then DLC happened and he got a bit of a boost, then Cloud and his Costume were revealed and it dropped DRAMATICALLY, now we're at a point where he's actually considered likely due to that costume. Geno has been a roller coaster ride of ups and downs. Isaac, on the other hand has stayed steadily popular, and even now is one of the more popular picks alongside Geno.

You don't hear a lot about Isaac anymore because the fanbase has barely been thrown a bone with music tracks in 4. Geno got a costume so of course they're going to be louder. Isaac has always been popular. Geno has wavered a lot. Not that that's a bad thing. All it takes is one recognition from Sakurai that he's wanted and boom he's in.

Look, my point is, you're hating on Isaac because he's often compared to Geno in popularity, and maybe you see that as competition for Geno but in actuality neither of them are in competition with the other. We'll see how it all pans out but hating on a character is just not cool. I love Geno but you know what if I had to choose between the two I'd pick Isaac. Just because he feels like he's a Nintendo character that should've happened a long time ago.

Bandana Dee is a whole 'nother can of worms, like, I'm not even gonna try to analyze him.

Damn just think about it. Isaac got removed from Smash, he hasn't been playable in a game since pre-Brawl, the last game was not a success, the series is currently super dormant - maybe dead - the only morsel of content we got in the last decade of Smash was a ripped track most people don't even know about, and he's still one of the most popular characters.

Can you imagine his popularity if he actually got ANYTHING in his favour?

Proud to be an Isaac supporter. ^_^

It’s currently the thread with the highest support base. It’s as strong as it’s ever been.

And, @Wambo are you ******* serious? That’s just plain revisionist right there. The reddit poll literally has one of the biggest entrants aside from the ballot with 13,000 votes. To say that a majority votes multiple times is literally being in denial right now.

——————————————————————
More importantly, what’s with people bashing about Isaac’s support right now as if he’s not getting in before Geno for some reason? Isaac has one of the most consistent support base of any character to that of King K. Rool and Ridley, despite Ridley being disconfirmed several times (but Ridley is a VERY special case). Isaac has constantly been pushed ever since Brawl and hasn’t seen any SIGNIFICANT drops of support during the past speculation periods, and currently has one of the most active support threads after Ridley and King K. Rool right now.

Sure Geno was BIG during Brawl, but his support was BARREN during Smash 4 speculation period. I barely saw him mentioned anywhere before the ballot, and Isaac was still going strong during that time. It was until that Ballot that Geno was finally brought back to life, but Isaac was still going strong during the ballot as well constantly being one of the top three characters mentioned. Sure, neither got in, and Isaac’s support did fell during the beginning of Ultimate’s speculation, but it was never to the extent Geno once went through, and to this day is Isaac’s support is the biggest it has ever been and even is even bigger than Geno right now.

Honestly, the big three always been Ridley/King K. Rool/Isaac, it was those three characters that were ALWAYS mentioned, ALWAYS supported, and ALWAYS loved by many despite what they faced. While those three were going strong after Brawl’s release, Geno’s support fizzled out, and there was a big gap of support during that period.

Those are my thoughts. But to come up and say that Isaac has much less support than Geno and his series DESPITE the fact that Isaac has been as consistently strong for the past 10+ years is the farthest from the truth and is seriously being a revisionist.

Like N3ON said, Isaac's supporters boom when they think he has a chance, Ridley and K. Rool's confirmation seems to have brought out a lot of Supporters for the Golden Boy, Forest Imp and Star Spirit, now that they have hope that Sakurai is bringing in long-time requests.

 

[Shroob]

Recounting thread supporters has been such busy work (especially for me and Zinith) that I missed a discussion about Isaac. I'd like to through my hat into the ring.

Just a heads up, Isaac has gotten, like 40+ new Supporters in the last month, most of those in the last few days. This is much, much faster than any other character besides Skull Kid and Geno.



Like N3ON said, Isaac's supporters boom when they think he has a chance, Ridley and K. Rool's confirmation seems to have brought out a lot of Supporters for the Golden Boy, Forest Imp and Star Spirit, now that they have hope that Sakurai is bringing in long-time requests.

Probably helps that the Neogaf leak, which oddly seems somewhat credible, is giving a double whammy for Golden Sun with Isaac and a Felix echo.

 

[T-Hell]

I wonder if Sakurai will reveal Skull Kid and Geno at the same time, seeing as both look like some sort of magical wooden toys. And yes, I think Geno is next in line for an unique newcomer reveal.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Skull Kid.

September Direct.

With a Zelda echo. Probably Impa with OoT design.

I keep saying.

 

[MagnesD3]

What I want to know about the last Direct is how did soo many people assume that:

Screen shaking = K.Rool

I saw soo many people say "King....?!" or "It's K.Rool!" instantly before the Heroes vs Villains thing even came up.


Like with the Ridley thing it was pretty obvious since it was being set in a space station, but did everyone just assume we were going to get K.Rool as the surprise at the end?

It made me think of K Rools cannonball gun

 

[NintenRob]

Skull Kid.

September Direct.

With a Zelda echo. Probably Impa with OoT design.

I keep saying.

I'd like SS design if possible. I like Oot Impa, but it's probably the weakest of her viable designs

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Probably helps that the Neogaf leak, which oddly seems somewhat credible, is giving a double whammy for Golden Sun with Isaac and a Felix echo.

How's it credible? Didn't he only get that Chrom was going to be a Roy echo?

 

[papagenos]

Here’s a discussion point I’ve been wanting to bring up for a while: I personally believe the chance of Dixie Kong being in this game is higher than ever, even though she wasn’t in King K. Rool’s trailer. The main reason for this is Dark Samus not being in Ridley’s trailer, and yes, I do know the counteragrument to this: “but Dark Samus hasn’t really fought Ridley before, while Dixie Kong has fought King K. Rool on two separate occasions!” Please hear me out.

The reason that Dixie Kong didn’t appear in King K. Rool’s trailer is that she didn’t fit the theme of the trailer they were going for, much like Dark Samus didn’t fit the theme of the Ridley trailer. To start with Dark Samus, the idea of the Ridley trailer was that Samus’ friends would slowly be picked off one-by-one by Ridley, leaving her alone to face him by herself, reinforcing the theme of isolation that is very common in the Metroid titles. Dark Samus wouldn’t fit because she couldn’t possibly be one of Samus’ allies for obvious reasons, and having her present as an enemy would diminish the focus of Samus in a one-on-one battle against her arch nemesis, as well as diffuse the tension when the viewer is waiting for Ridley to arrive.

With all that in mind, I think a lot of people are missing the two important themes of the King K. Rool trailer. The first and bigger theme of the trailer is how it plays on King K. Rool’s long-term absence and sudden return, as well as meta-commentary on how the Smash fanbase has wanted his return for so long. While that is interesting and warrants its own post, (which I might do at some point because that trailer was simply brilliant,) this isn’t the part of the trailer that Dixie’s presence would clash with. She would instead contradict with the second, more minor theme of the trailer: it is framed largely around nostalgia for the first Donkey Kong Country game in particular. First of all, throughout the entirety of the trailer, Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong are always at each other’s side, just like in the original Donkey Kong Country. Donkey Kong in particular is not playable in any of the games that Dixie is in, so having her alongside Donkey Kong under any context would break Donkey Kong Country “rules”; furthermore, another DKC “rule” is that there are always two Kongs playable and not three, so they wouldn’t want to have her alongside both Donkey and Diddy at the same time either. Even at the end of the trailer, Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong both choose to collide with King K. Rool’s punch at the same time instead of just Donkey Kong doing so alone, reinforcing the concept of 2 vs. 1 that is present across the entire series. Finally, the last bit of gameplay we see is Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong celebrating the “defeat” of K. Rool only for him to come back and stomp on them both, which is specifically a reference to the end of the first Donkey Kong Country and not the second or third, since the first game is the only one in which K. Rool attempts to pull this stunt.

TL;DR for this first part: Dixie didn’t show up in the King K. Rool trailer because they wanted to frame it like a confrontation from a Donkey Kong Country game, and the one they chose was the first one, where Dixie Kong is not present.

Now with all that in mind, there is no denying that Dixie Kong has been one of the most popular requests for Smash Bros. for years now. She is probably more requested than both Chrom and Dark Samus, and has definitely been a popular topic for longer than the former. She is also notable for the fact that she actually almost made it into Brawl, as Sakurai originally wanted her and Diddy Kong to be a DKC2-style duo until he realized he could not come up with a concept that made that work, and decided to cut her in favor of solo Diddy. Data for her still exists on Brawl’s disc to this day, so she must have had at least a little work done on her beyond just the conceptual stages, which means Sakurai probably had completed plans for her moveset. I doubt those thoughts have left his mind, and given both her popularity and the remnants of his plans for her, I would be shocked if Sakurai didn’t want to implement her in some capacity. Echoes seem like a good compromise, but then you realize that a Dixie that doesn’t attack with her hair in some capacity is just a shell of the character, so clearly an echo is out of the question.

At least, it seemed that way to us for a while, but two things happened that prove that an echo is well within the realm of possibility: the first was Nate Bildorff, and the second was Chrom.

Shortly after E3, Bill Trinen and Nate Bildorff conducted an interview with GameXplain in which they discussed Smash Ultimate. The first time I started to change my perception of what an Echo Fighter constituted as happened as I was listening to Nate’s response to a question, which I will both link and transcribe here:

The part that most intrigued me is that up to this point, I assumed the primary definition of echo fighter was “a character that shares all the move animations it has with the character it derives from other than the Final Smash and cosmetic animations like idles, taunts, or victory poses”; however, Nate instead began his response by putting emphasis on shared mobility and playstyle attributes. Yes, he did talk about how Dr. Mario and Pichu have moves that differ from their base characters, but he also put a lot of emphasis on Doc’s mobility issues and Pichu’s self-damage, aspects which I didn’t consider as being the reasons they were exempt from being echoes. Now, a thought crossed my mind: could a character that had largely the same basic playstyle with a couple of unique moves still be considered an echo fighter? I didn’t get my answer for a while, but now we all have it: yes, because Chrom exists.

Chrom is an echo fighter of Roy, and shares a majority of the moves Roy has, (though tweaked to lack a sourspot tip or sweetspot hilt just like Lucina,) as well as what appears to be the exact same mobility stats. However, Chrom has some of his attack animations changed to lack the reverse-grip Roy uses when wielding the sword, (at least in Chrom’s jab and forward-tilt,) and he has entirely different up-special which is derived from Ike instead, but tweaked a bit to match the animation Chrom has when attacking Lucina in the cutscene when he first meets her in disguise. These are significant changes compared to every other echo fighter on the roster, but the fact remains that overall, Chrom’s gameplan will not be significantly different than Roy’s, unlike Pichu or Dr. Mario. This is largely why I believe he is classified as an echo fighter and not them: mobility stats and knockback angles are more important to what determines an echo fighter than individual move animations or similarity in models.

Factoring in this information, I feel a Dixie Kong that has different grab/throw animations, a different Up-Special, and a cosmetically different neutral special but retains all the other attacks that Diddy Kong uses in the exact same capacity would still be classified as an echo fighter, and would be a relatively low-effort, high reward character for Sakurai to develop. She is right up there with
Isabelle, Shadow, and Ken as one of the most likely characters to become an echo fighter, in my opinion.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

Also the K Rool trailer ends with him "capturing" DK and Diddy... Dixie has come to the rescue before...

As for echo fighters. Honestly i think if it had ALWAYS been a term we'd have seen many of our "semi-clones" (pichu dr mario young link etc...) called echo fighters from the start, but i think sakurai doesnt want to retro actively call characters who arent CLEARLY echos "echos"... however i also dont think he wants to add essentially a semi-clone (chrom) and act like its a brand new fighter soooo we have the odd instance of NEW semi-clones being echos and old ones not being echos.

tbh i dont care what you label them as im just happy we are getting lots more characters than i thought by getting echo fighters AND that the "rules" for what makes an echo fighter is pretty fuzzy so lots of potential ones can happen and they dont have to be strict with how they play if it makes sense to change them a bit more than most echos.

this has been the right move all around and im so happy sakurai seems to be doing EVERYTHING right this game its amazing.

 

[Zeox]

Every direct they end with a villain, if we look at how much time is left I will say there are two more directs, this is what I believe they will announce:
beginning of October: 7th Gen Pokemon, 3 echoes that are Black Shadow, Dixie and Isabelle, show the new story mode, end direct with Skull Kid.
almost at the end of November: Bandana Dee, 3 echoes that are Impa, Shadow and Medusa, then end with Porky Minch... but actually is not over yet, they show the first DLC character, with of course is Geno because they know is gonna sell pretty good, then they announce that DLC characters will be free for the people that pay the online services, which would make sense because they want people to actually pay and feel like they are getting something.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I'd like SS design if possible. I like Oot Impa, but it's probably the weakest of her viable designs

I say OoT because it ties better with Skull Kid than any other design.

 

[Shroob]

How's it credible? Didn't he only get that Chrom was going to be a Roy echo?

To be blunt, it's more credible than Loz18 saying that K.Rool and Skull Kid are in to "Promote new games" when we've yet to see anything DK or Zelda related yet.

 

[Impa4Smash]

Skull Kid.

September Direct.

With a Zelda echo. Probably Impa with OoT design.

I keep saying.

That would be the dream. Though I’d prefer SS and HW Impa, I won’t be picky

Also the K Rool trailer ends with him "capturing" DK and Diddy... Dixie has come to the rescue before...

As for echo fighters. Honestly i think if it had ALWAYS been a term we'd have seen many of our "semi-clones" (pichu dr mario young link etc...) called echo fighters from the start, but i think sakurai doesnt want to retro actively call characters who arent CLEARLY echos "echos"... however i also dont think he wants to add essentially a semi-clone (chrom) and act like its a brand new fighter soooo we have the odd instance of NEW semi-clones being echos and old ones not being echos.

tbh i dont care what you label them as im just happy we are getting lots more characters than i thought by getting echo fighters AND that the "rules" for what makes an echo fighter is pretty fuzzy so lots of potential ones can happen and they dont have to be strict with how they play if it makes sense to change them a bit more than most echos.

this has been the right move all around and im so happy sakurai seems to be doing EVERYTHING right this game its amazing.

I really thought Dixie was gonna show up at the end of the K Rool trailer when he stomped the Kongs. Seemed very cliffhanger-y to me

 

[KMDP]

I was thinking about something related to K. Rool's reveal, there were lots of little circumstantial hints about his arrival during the direct (not including the "red eyes" comment), all during the item showcase.

DK and Diddy were the first characters seen in the Item Showcase, using a Banana item; a lot of time was spent focused on them, in silence, before DK shot Diddy with the Banana.
The music played throughout the showcase was a new remix of Bonus Room Blitz & Simian Segue.
Klaptrap was revealed as an Assist Trophy, the first ever DK Assist revealed is part of the Kremlings.

There are probably others, but it's probably enough to subconsciously push fans to thinking "New DK character".