Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Mutsukki]

VGCharts (I know it's not totally accurate) gives 2.14 mil for Mario RPG and 1.76 mil for Golden Sun. That's not a huge difference and Golden Sun has the advantage of recency and sequels. Plus Geno isnt the equivalent of Isaac, he's the equivalent of Mia. You can't say Barret is more popular than Terra because FFVII is more popular than FFVI.

How could a (basically) one-off supporting character from a 20+ year old game thrive outside an echo chamber? Geno's popularity was literally formed inside the recesses of the diehard Smash fanbase. Isaac's came from outside, he was the protagonist of a successful IP, and now all that's left is what bangs around the echo chamber.

I honestly feel like you guys underestimate the popularity of Super Mario RPG, while overestimating how many people actually know about Isaac. The only time I see any talk about Isaac, or even Golden Sun to some extent, is when there's a new Smash on the horizon, while people still clamor to this day for a Super Mario RPG 2, despite Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi existing. It's not because they want another Mario RPG, but they want that one with that cast. Maybe this is an age thing, but I've honestly seen way more people familiar with Geno than Isaac in any form. It doesn't matter at all if one's the protagonist or not.

 

[Enchess]

On the prospect of DLC: Do you think Echo Fighter DLC (if it happens) will cost less than unique fighter DLC or all-around the same? I talked to a friend about the thought and he didn't know what would be best.

Echoes fighters should be free imo. It'll keep players engaged and people who are resistant to paid DLC (speaking from personal experience) are more likely to spend money on big DLCs when the smaller DLCs are given for free as a sign of good faith.

Before anyone argues, fully aware this would make less money, it's my opinion on how they should do it, not how they will. This option is trying to maximize product of consumer friendliness and profit, not just profit.

 

[NintenRob]

You know, if we get a Gen 7 Pokemon (probably Tapu Koko or Lycanroc I'm on) , alongside Skull Kid and Impa echo. The big 3 Nintendo franchises would each have 8 slots for 8 player smash.

And this pleases me!!!!

 

[Nonno Umby]

On the prospect of DLC: Do you think Echo Fighter DLC (if it happens) will cost less than unique fighter DLC or all-around the same? I talked to a friend about the thought and he didn't know what would be best.

Considering that Smash For DLC had several price tags (Veteran: 3,99; Newcomer: 4,99; Newcomer+Stage:5,99; all prices are for a single version), I would say that they would take the Veteran price tag.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

You know, if we get a Gen 7 Pokemon (probably Tapu Koko or Lycanroc I'm on) , alongside Skull Kid and Impa echo. The big 3 Nintendo franchises would each have 8 slots for 8 player smash.

And this pleases me!!!!

Verg has confirmed his source specifically said it's Incineroar.

 

[Shroob]

Verg has confirmed his source specifically said it's Incineroar.

"One" of his sources. His other sources haven't said ****.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

How about they don’t cost at all? No way people are wasting their money on easy developed clones.

If they pad the roster out, then it makes perfect sense to be free downloads.

People spend money on costumes that don't even affect gameplay lol.

 

[NintenRob]

I honestly feel like you guys underestimate the popularity of Super Mario RPG, while overestimating how many people actually know about Isaac. The only time I see any talk about Isaac, or even Golden Sun to some extent, is when there's a new Smash on the horizon, while people still clamor to this day for a Super Mario RPG 2, despite Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi existing. It's not because they want another Mario RPG, but they want that one with that cast. Maybe this is an age thing, but I've honestly seen way more people familiar with Geno than Isaac in any form. It doesn't matter at all if one's the protagonist or not.

I'm sorry but I see WAY more people asking for a new Golden Sun game then I do for a SMRPG. Most Mario RPG fans I see want to see a Good Paper Mario before anything

 

[Will]

Verg has confirmed his source specifically said it's Incineroar.

But it's also Verg. I'd bet it could be anyone (and by anyone, I mean anyone within the span of the Gen 7 starters + Lycanroc and Buzzwole).

 

[UberMadman]

I'm telling you that Geno popularity died down between Brawl and DLC. Literally the guy who's been running the Geno thread for years echoed the sentiment. It's never been nothing, but there was a while it certainly wasn't close to the top.

I think his popularity might not have died down as much as one might expect. There’s one particular quote from the famous post-DLC Nintendo Dream interview that I feel is getting overlooked, which I will bold and italicize:

Geno:
—What led you to decide to make a Geno costume after all this time?
Sakurai: To tell the truth, it’s because I wanted Geno to be a playable character. He has a gun for a hand, and I think he fits in really well with Smash. During Brawl, I thought it would be great if I could add him, but in the end it didn’t become a reality.
—Because of that, you added him as a Mii Costume this time?
Sakurai: That’s right. He’s very popular. When talking about older characters, Geno always gets a lot of requests. He didn’t appear as a fighter, but I was able to achieve something kind of close to that as a Mii Costume.

Keep in mind this interview came out shortly after the Smash 4 DLC was finished, (and, for context, after Smash Ultimate’s project plan was finished.) Assuming Source Gaming’s translation is accurate, which it usually is, then I find it interesting that Sakurai said that Geno is a character that “always” gets lots of requests, not a character who “was heavily requested in the past” or something along those lines. Given the fact that he had already devised Ultimate’s roster at the time, he had to have had the ballot on his mind when he said this, so logic would dictate that Geno got “lots of requests” in the Smash ballot too.

 

[Enchess]

I honestly feel like you guys underestimate the popularity of Super Mario RPG, while overestimating how many people actually know about Isaac. The only time I see any talk about Isaac, or even Golden Sun to some extent, is when there's a new Smash on the horizon, while people still clamor to this day for a Super Mario RPG 2, despite Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi existing. It's not because they want another Mario RPG, but they want that one with that cast. Maybe this is an age thing, but I've honestly seen way more people familiar with Geno than Isaac in any form. It doesn't matter at all if one's the protagonist or not.

You should check out Octopath forums. Golden Sun is super popular in those circles. There are even conspiracy theories that the devs lied about it being inspired by FFVI because that's in company and it's actually inspired by Golden Sun.

I also here people ask for Golden Sun 4 quite a lot on general Nintendo and Switch forums.

 

[PlayerOneTyler]

Verg has confirmed his source specifically said it's Incineroar.

I don't think it's the same source that told him about Simon Belmont, Snake, etc, though. Still open ended, tbh.

 

[N3ON]

Not to barge in unannounced but you're letting your bias HEAVILY cloud your judgement. If anything Geno and Isaac have always been on even ground but looking back at the past Geno has been in and out of the public eye MULTIPLE times. Pre-Brawl he was a dark horse, then when Smash 4 picked up people jumped on board but then dropped him after Mega Man was announced (which was weird), then DLC happened and he got a bit of a boost, then Cloud and his Costume were revealed and it dropped DRAMATICALLY, now we're at a point where he's actually considered likely due to that costume. Geno has been a roller coaster ride of ups and downs. Isaac, on the other hand has stayed steadily popular, and even now is one of the more popular picks alongside Geno.

You don't hear a lot about Isaac anymore because the fanbase has barely been thrown a bone with music tracks in 4. Geno got a costume so of course they're going to be louder. Isaac has always been popular. Geno has wavered a lot. Not that that's a bad thing. All it takes is one recognition from Sakurai that he's wanted and boom he's in.

Look, my point is, you're hating on Isaac because he's often compared to Geno in popularity, and maybe you see that as competition for Geno but in actuality neither of them are in competition with the other. We'll see how it all pans out but hating on a character is just not cool. I love Geno but you know what if I had to choose between the two I'd pick Isaac. Just because he feels like he's a Nintendo character that should've happened a long time ago.

Bandana Dee is a whole 'nother can of worms, like, I'm not even gonna try to analyze him.

Damn just think about it. Isaac got removed from Smash, he hasn't been playable in a game since pre-Brawl, the last game was not a success, the series is currently super dormant - maybe dead - the only morsel of content we got in the last decade of Smash was a ripped track most people don't even know about, and he's still one of the most popular characters.

Can you imagine his popularity if he actually got ANYTHING in his favour?

Proud to be an Isaac supporter. ^_^

 

[RandomAce]

Is Isaac support even as strong as it was during previous games? It feels like it's fading after a decade of steady support, not getting a sudden boom

It’s currently the thread with the highest support base. It’s as strong as it’s ever been.

And, Wambo are you ******* serious? That’s just plain revisionist right there. The reddit poll literally has one of the biggest entrants aside from the ballot with 13,000 votes. To say that a majority votes multiple times is literally being in denial right now.

——————————————————————
More importantly, what’s with people bashing about Isaac’s support right now as if he’s not getting in before Geno for some reason? Isaac has one of the most consistent support base of any character to that of King K. Rool and Ridley, despite Ridley being disconfirmed several times (but Ridley is a VERY special case). Isaac has constantly been pushed ever since Brawl and hasn’t seen any SIGNIFICANT drops of support during the past speculation periods, and currently has one of the most active support threads after Ridley and King K. Rool right now.

Sure Geno was BIG during Brawl, but his support was BARREN during Smash 4 speculation period. I barely saw him mentioned anywhere before the ballot, and Isaac was still going strong during that time. It was until that Ballot that Geno was finally brought back to life, but Isaac was still going strong during the ballot as well constantly being one of the top three characters mentioned. Sure, neither got in, and Isaac’s support did fell during the beginning of Ultimate’s speculation, but it was never to the extent Geno once went through, and to this day is Isaac’s support is the biggest it has ever been and even is even bigger than Geno right now.

Honestly, the big three always been Ridley/King K. Rool/Isaac, it was those three characters that were ALWAYS mentioned, ALWAYS supported, and ALWAYS loved by many despite what they faced. While those three were going strong after Brawl’s release, Geno’s support fizzled out, and there was a big gap of support during that period.

Those are my thoughts. But to come up and say that Isaac has much less support than Geno and his series DESPITE the fact that Isaac has been as consistently strong for the past 10+ years is the farthest from the truth and is seriously being a revisionist.

 

[Wambo]

He was being sarcastic, sir.

Oh, sorry, it was hard to read his tone. Thanks for letting me know, I was about to crucify him for it.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Now that Ridley and K. Rool are announced and the big list of disconfirmations are out the "Big 3" is probably Isaac, Geno, and Bandana Dee. From what I remember the "Big 3" was Ridley, K. Rool, and Isaac, but before that it was Ridley, K. Rool, and Little Mac. Of course, I wasn't a "connoisseur" or anything when Brawl came out I'm only talking about my experience in For's speculation.

 

[osby]

Echoes fighters should be free imo. It'll keep players engaged and people who are resistant to paid DLC (speaking from personal experience) are more likely to spend money on big DLCs when the smaller DLCs are given for free as a sign of good faith.

Before anyone argues, fully aware this would make less money, it's my opinion on how they should do it, not how they will. This option is trying to maximize product of consumer friendliness and profit, not just profit.

I prefer paid DLC, though preferably with a smaller price. Even if it's a lot easier than a fully unique fighter, I want to pay for the work that gone into them.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

Given the fact that he had already devised Ultimate’s roster at the time, he had to have had the ballot on his mind when he said this, so logic would dictate that Geno got “lots of requests” in the Smash ballot too.

I'm surprised this interview hasn't been brought up more often. This being so recent really makes Geno seem more probable than I originally assumed. Even with him having a mii costume

 

[PSIGuy]

Echoes fighters should be free imo. It'll keep players engaged and people who are resistant to paid DLC (speaking from personal experience) are more likely to spend money on big DLCs when the smaller DLCs are given for free as a sign of good faith.

It'd fit with what Nintendo is doing in general with their post-release Switch support. Odyssey, Breath of the Wild, Xenoblade 2 etc all got free content to some degree, sometimes small like the XB2 armor in Breath of the Wild or larger like Xenoblade 2's NG+ option. And DLC Newcomers would probably have their own Echoes too if possible (Isaac/Matthew, Rex & Pyra/Rex & Mythra, Springman/Springtron etc) which alongside a new stage would make any paid content more appealing.

 

[Will]

Now that Ridley and Isaac are announced

dude what?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Of course, its entirely possible that we get both Geno and Isaac.

You know, just saying.

 

[papagenos]

So we are talking about Geno AND now that toy gun might be for him??? this conversation seems built for me haha

I was really pushing that gun was for Mach Rider but now I think he's deconfirmed since his music track was shown off handedly and i feel like if he was playable they wouldnt have shown anything from mach rider until they revealed him.

Having Geos chances HIGHER than people were guessing during the Brawl days is surreal by the way. if he gets in i cant imagine how im gonna feel, this is over a decade of waiting to see him in smash (and much longer to see him truly return in a significant fashion to a "mario" game).

 

[NintenRob]

Yeah I remember Little Mac being fairly big during Smash 4

However, the big 3 in that era, was Ridley, K Rool and Mewtwo. I remember those 3 constantly being grouped together

 

[Noipoi]

Verg has confirmed his source specifically said it's Incineroar.

But we don't know if Verg is right, or if he's just spouting Verggy Tales. I do think it'l be Incineroar though.

 

[Will]

I was really pushing that gun was for Mach Rider but now I think he's deconfirmed since his music track was shown off handedly and i feel like if he was playable they wouldnt have shown anything from mach rider until they revealed him.

Mach Rider is a preexisting track from past games, why wouldn't they show it off?

 

[Mutsukki]

I'm sorry but I see WAY more people asking for a new Golden Sun game then I do for a SMRPG. Most Mario RPG fans I see want to see a Good Paper Mario before anything

I just don't see it, most people I know or read just think Golden Sun is a very niche GBA RPG and everyone I see talking about it doesn't feel like it's anything but that.

You should check out Octopath forums. Golden Sun is super popular in those circles. There are even conspiracy theories that the devs lied about it being inspired by FFVI because that's in company and it's actually inspired by Golden Sun.

I also here people ask for Golden Sun 4 quite a lot on general Nintendo and Switch forums.

Hey, I'm not saying Golden Sun is not popular. If Isaac ever gets a spot in Smash, it'll be well deserved. I'm just saying Super Mario RPG (and by extent, Geno) is way more, and that has been shown to us from time to time. I also don't buy that "Isaac didn't have an easy asset so he didn't get a costume" because there's his Brawl Assist Trophy that could be worked on from that.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

OK, CLEAR IT UP RIGHT NOW! ANYONE TO MAKE A SARCASTIC, FLAMEY, TROLLING REMARK TO SOMEONE ELSE WILL BE INFRACTED! THIS IS YOUR ONLY WARNING!

dude what?

****ing hell, how did you catch that so fast? Lol, I meant K. Rool.

 

[Dee Dude]

I think Issac has a fair shot, if his Assist removal means anything at best, or that Sakurai almost considered him a bit but I won’t work at Sora/Bandai Namco so heck if I know.

If Geno happens, I wonder it’ll mean for his future and other SMRPG content. Will SE ease off and return them to the Mario series or will it be a one-time gift?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

To move away from this discussion...

What would your reaction be if we got five more unique newcomers?

And these newcomers were...

Skull Kid
Elma
Bandana Waddle Dee
Geno
Isaac

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I'm sorry but I see WAY more people asking for a new Golden Sun game then I do for a SMRPG. Most Mario RPG fans I see want to see a Good Paper Mario before anything

I see the exact opposite

I don't even like the Paper Mario.

On Youtube, on twitter, etc. I see people asking for a Mario RPG 2 all the time.

 

[papagenos]

Mach Rider is a preexisting track from past games, why wouldn't they show it off?

Oh obviously its old news, im just saying IF Mach Rider is the retro character, I dont think they'd show the name "mach rider" in a direct if they dont plan on revealing him til later, just doesnt make any sense to me to do that.

its not a total deconfirmation but its close enough that i no longer think mach is "likely" now mach is more just "possible".

 

[osby]

OK, CLEAR IT UP RIGHT NOW! ANYONE TO MAKE A SARCASTIC, FLAMEY, TROLLING REMARK TO SOMEONE ELSE WILL BE INFRACTED! THIS IS YOUR ONLY WARNING!

****ing hell, how did you catch that so fast? Lol, I meant K. Rool.

We are getting long waited characters so fast that people are mixing them up.

 

[Enchess]

I prefer paid DLC, though preferably with a smaller price. Even if it's a lot easier than a fully unique fighter, I want to pay for the work that gone into them.

Mad respect. I work on video games now and I appreciate people like you. Personally, if I ever climb the ladder enough to make these decisions, I still wanna offer fans some free goodies any time I'm gonna ask them to pay extra. I know when devs throw a free DLC before a paid one it makes me feel like my time and money are respected.

 

[Mutsukki]

If Geno happens, I wonder it’ll mean for his future and other SMRPG content. Will SE ease off and return them to the Mario series or will it be a one-time gift?

Probably nothing. Geno appeared in Superstar Saga as a cameo and they still had to credit Square-Enix for it (and then it got removed on the remake)

 

[Will]

To move away from this discussion...

What would your reaction be if we got five more unique newcomers?

And these newcomers were...

Skull Kid
Elma
Bandana Waddle Dee
Geno
Isaac

I've had the same mood since June. All I wanted was my main and for him to get buffed. I got both, winwin. Anything else can happen for all I care.

Oh obviously its old news, im just saying IF Mach Rider is the retro character, I dont think they'd show the name "mach rider" in a direct if they dont plan on revealing him til later, just doesnt make any sense to me to do that.

its not a total deconfirmation but its close enough that i no longer think mach is "likely" now mach is more just "possible".

Meh, I think they've done similar before but I'm not sure. The thing about Mach and the rifle for me is that Mach had a 1% chance before the news that he got a figma, and now that the news was out his likelihood is like what, 3% now? Not a very likely character in the first place IMO, but I don't believe that the rifle is meant for Geno.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

To move away from this discussion...

What would your reaction be if we got five more unique newcomers?

And these newcomers were...

Skull Kid
Elma
Bandana Waddle Dee
Geno
Isaac

I'd be sad we didn't get Rayman but I'm pretty sure that is an inevitability for me

 

[Noipoi]

So TIL Isaac was bigger than Geno at certain times. It's weird because for the short time during the ballot Geno was everywhere.

 

[Dee Dude]

To move away from this discussion...

What would your reaction be if we got five more unique newcomers?

And these newcomers were...

Skull Kid
Elma
Bandana Waddle Dee
Geno
Isaac

Skull Kid- Meh, cool. Happy for his supporters.

Elma- Ehh...don’t really want a new Xenoblade character so soon but whatever.

Bandana Dee-YES!

Geno-They finally did it...

Issac-Awesome, congrats to his supporters.

 

[PlayerOneTyler]

I was really pushing that gun was for Mach Rider but now I think he's deconfirmed since his music track was shown off handedly and i feel like if he was playable they wouldnt have shown anything from mach rider until they revealed him.

I think it's just because it's already an existing track. Also, Ice Climber, Stack Up, and Duck Hunt are all in that folder, too (and only have 1-2 songs each), so Mach Rider isn't totally ruled out, in my opinion.

 

[Zinith]

To move away from this discussion...

What would your reaction be if we got five more unique newcomers?

And these newcomers were...

Skull Kid
Elma
Bandana Waddle Dee
Geno
Isaac

OMG! YES!
Great
Cool
Cool
Cool

As you can tell, I'm not too hung up on inclusions