Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Zinith]

I just consider Diddy "western."

 

[MainJPW]

Do we know how most Japanese Smash fans reacted to the direct? Especially Dark Samus

There’s a compilation of Japanese reactions to K. Rool.

 

[Shroob]

There’s a compilation of Japanese reactions to K. Rool.

Link?

 

[Zinith]

Objectively speaking you could argue K. Rool is the first completely unique character added to Smash in a playable format that was created outside of Japan because Diddy was technically DK Jr. originally and Dark Samus is literally just evil Samus.

Calling Dark Samus "evil Samus" is kind of missing the point. She's the reincarnation of Metroid Prime that took on Samus' form...

 

[DarkFalcon]

Objectively speaking you could argue K. Rool is the first completely unique character added to Smash in a playable format that was created outside of Japan because Diddy was technically DK Jr. originally and Dark Samus is literally just evil Samus.

Excuse me sir or madam. That is not what Dark Samus is. You see, Dark Samus is (insert long story and plot explaining what the character is).

 

[AEMehr]

Calling Dark Samus "evil Samus" is kind of missing the point. She's the reincarnation of Metroid Prime that took on Samus' form...

it's design is evil samus

 

[Troykv]

That has to be reaching quite a bit. Mewtwo looks like a random guy, Gandondorf looks like Master Hand, and Ridley looks like Charizard (at least to me). Bowser is the only one that looks like Bowser.

I always thought that cloud was Master Hand actually xDU.

 

[KMDP]

You're missing the key points here.

1. Generation 1 has the nostalgia factor. Everyone and their mother can know and recognize the original 151.
2. It actually FIT a theme.
3. Starters are ALWAYS important and markettable. They're the first 'mon you see, damnit.

Ivysaur maybe a "lucky" inclusion, but at least from a marketting standpoint, it makes sense. I doubt most people even remember the highly-forgettable Gothita line even exists, let alone likes it. The only reason I, your above-average Nintendo fan, knows what it is is from a damn spinoff designed to highlight some of the less popular 'mon in the first place, designed during the time Gen 5 was relevant. And Gen 5 is one of the most popular gens in Japan! And even then, Gothitelle didn't make it into the Top FOUR HUNDRED.

Something I said in relation to starters the other day.

With the Starter Pokémon, the Pokémon Company are guaranteed that at least a third of the playerbase will get attached to each one of the three Starters every Generation (clarification: approximately one third will pick the Grass Starter, one third will pick the Fire Starter, one third will pick the Water Starter; they will eventually become attached to that Pokémon). Other Pokémon are more of a gamble unless they are immediate hits like Lucario.

If I'm remembering that popularity poll right, isn't Gardevoir the most popular Gen III Pokémon in Japan? At least out of the ones feasible for Smash (Jirachi scored higher, but... well...)

 

[MainJPW]

Link?

多くの人とこの感動と興奮を共有しましょう

【スマブラダイレクト】キングクルール参戦に対する日本人の反応まとめ https://t.co/7QTRxd1sdO

— あっきー@あきたま (@akitamaa_) August 11, 2018

I understand them, I can understand their hype.

 

[Enchess]

Calling Dark Samus "evil Samus" is kind of missing the point. She's the reincarnation of Metroid Prime that took on Samus' form...

Neeeeerd
(but yeah, its really not fair to call her "evil Samus". That's more SA-X's deal really. I sorta wish Dark Samus was called "Metroid Prime" on character select just to confuse non-Metroid fans)

 

[Capybara Gaming]

A poll over Pokemon popularity voting among 720 Pokemon will really depend on the voting mechanisms. If you asked everyone "name your favorite Pokemon" then surely the bottom rankings would all be really obscure so someone like Simisear is logical. If you asked instead "rank the Pokemon from your favorite to least favorite" then surely the bottom would be stacked with Pokemon who are more specifically disliked (like Garbador). Even a question like "name your top 5 favorite Pokemon" will produce a VERY different list than "name your single favorite Pokemon".

I'm also going to throw out that your methodology is obviously really flawed if it suggests Genesect is more popular than Charizard. It just... obviously isn't. I mean if you just go out on the street and start asking people about Charizard and Genesect you'll get lots of random responses favorable to Charizard and Genesect will be universally met with "what is that?". You'd have to only ask really hardcore Pokemon fans to even get to the point where the average poll respondent knows what a Genesect is and then you'd have to have some strangely self selected crowd that values an obscure legendary that you can't even catch in any game to one of the main series icons like Charizard who was also probably the final form of about half of the oldest Pokemon fan's first Pokemon...

Of course there's some adjustment for every poll respondent being Japanese which will do something. Events actually happen in Japan so Pokemon like Genesect might be perceived to exist unlike here in America where without a doubt the event Pokemon are just the single lowest tier of importance (because you can't really go and get them other than online haggling for one you know good and well is probably hacked), and I dunno maybe Japanese culture would be embarrassed to vote in the poll if the individual voter didn't know what most of the Pokemon were so you have a huge bias toward hardcore Pokemon fans? I still find that poll really lacking in credibility for this data point alone though...

Even then, more obvious ones STILL make their way close to the top, so it's still doing a decent job.

 

[RandomAce]

Just to be a contrarian, wasn't Diddy supposed to be DK Jr when he was conceived? So he's more of a soft-reboot of a Japanese character (but really Diddy is from Rare which is from UK, so saying Dark Samus is first American character is correct)

Well they originally wanted to use DK Jr. but they instead created a new character to have the traits they wanted and first made DK Jr grow up to become the current older DK and have Cranky as the original DK.

But then they made the current DK Cranky’s grandson.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

So he's saying they're running out of big franchises and may have to start using characters from smaller franchises as playable in the future?

He's saying that there aren't many other prominent series left to be added into Smash Bros.

I didn't really see anything in that quote that told me no non Japanese third parties?

But it still doesn't bode well for them.

 

[Enchess]

Well they originally wanted to use DK Jr. but they instead created a new character to have the traits they wanted and first made DK Jr grow up to become the current older DK and have Cranky as the original DK.

But then they made the current DK Cranky’s grandson.

Which means DK is technically DK Jr's son and thus the ACTUAL first western character in Smash. Guys, we've had one the whole time.

 

[AEMehr]

Neeeeerd
(but yeah, its really not fair to call her "evil Samus". That's more SA-X's deal really. I sorta wish Dark Samus was called "Metroid Prime" on character select just to confuse non-Metroid fans)

I mean sure, the point was that the form literally uses Samus as a base like Diddy was created with Donkey Kong Junior as a base.

King K. Rool is just an original character through and through.

 

[RandomAce]

Which means DK is technically DK Jr's son and thus the ACTUAL first western character in Smash. Guys, we've had one the whole time.

I mean DK (his more iconic redesign) and Diddy were both western designed (or in the UK), and so is King K. Rool

Actually, the whole Donkey Kong roster is the only series in Smash to have all the character designs not have originated in Japan.

Then we have Dark Samus which is a very nice touch. And she looks cool.

 

[Enchess]

I mean DK (his more iconic redesign) and Diddy were both western designed (or in the UK), and so is King K. Rool

Actually, the whole Donkey Kong roster is the only series in Smash to have all the characters have non-Japan created designs.

Then we have Dark Samus which is a very nice touch. And she looks cool.

When it comes to western characters in Smash, DK really is the leader of the bunch. We know him well. He's finally back to kick some tail.

edit: only 2 likes for DK rap? This board needs some culture. DK rap is Kanye levels of lyrical genius.

 

[Luminario]

A poll over Pokemon popularity voting among 720 Pokemon will really depend on the voting mechanisms. If you asked everyone "name your favorite Pokemon" then surely the bottom rankings would all be really obscure so someone like Simisear is logical. If you asked instead "rank the Pokemon from your favorite to least favorite" then surely the bottom would be stacked with Pokemon who are more specifically disliked (like Garbador). Even a question like "name your top 5 favorite Pokemon" will produce a VERY different list than "name your single favorite Pokemon".

I'm also going to throw out that your methodology is obviously really flawed if it suggests Genesect is more popular than Charizard. It just... obviously isn't. I mean if you just go out on the street and start asking people about Charizard and Genesect you'll get lots of random responses favorable to Charizard and Genesect will be universally met with "what is that?". You'd have to only ask really hardcore Pokemon fans to even get to the point where the average poll respondent knows what a Genesect is and then you'd have to have some strangely self selected crowd that values an obscure legendary that you can't even catch in any game to one of the main series icons like Charizard who was also probably the final form of about half of the oldest Pokemon fan's first Pokemon...

Of course there's some adjustment for every poll respondent being Japanese which will do something. Events actually happen in Japan so Pokemon like Genesect might be perceived to exist unlike here in America where without a doubt the event Pokemon are just the single lowest tier of importance (because you can't really go and get them other than online haggling for one you know good and well is probably hacked), and I dunno maybe Japanese culture would be embarrassed to vote in the poll if the individual voter didn't know what most of the Pokemon were so you have a huge bias toward hardcore Pokemon fans? I still find that poll really lacking in credibility for this data point alone though...

It's pretty easy to tell from all the legendaries high up the list that quite a few were expecting to get the highest voted Pokemon as a gift, so instead of voting for what they liked they voted for the rarest Pokemon they wanted. That would probably skew the legendary results quite a bit.
Side note, LOVE the Sylveon love in the poll though. It got 5th and it's the most popular Eeveelution even above Eevee? Those voters got taste.

 

[Arcanir]

I think people who are expecting a "finale" of sorts are setting themselves up for disappointment.

I agree. I feel we're letting the hype get to us a bit as it seems like we're thinking that the next newcomer must surpass the previous, which has never been the trend before (which N30N put it best) and thinking in trends has burned us badly before. We can easily have a character that follows King K. Rool that doesn't quite match his hype, and I don't think we should restrict our speculation like that as I feel we'll skip over a number of potential characters.

I actually just remembered... there was that official Pokémon popularity poll a while ago (the "Pokémon General Election 720", the Japanese Popularity poll where Simisear got dead last).

Greninja was #1
Pikachu was #4
Charizard was #9
Mewtwo was #11
Lucario was #15
Jigglypuff was #49
Pichu was #69
Squirtle and Ivysaur didn't make the top 100.

Genesect was #5, Meloetta was #10, Eevee was #12, Gengar was #35. Gardevoir was #38, Blaziken was #45, Sceptile was #61, Meowth was #82.

Gardevoir for Gen 3 rep, Genesect for Gen 5 rep, sounds good to me!

Metroid's got 25 tracks, up from 17 from Smash 4. If Dark Samus' theme isn't in there I don't understand anything. I saw a Samus Returns track in there. Area 1-5 Torrid Zone. Is that Lower Norfair/Magmoor Caverns???

Probably, Torrid means very hot and that theme is used in all of those areas in their lava sections, so it likely would be that song.

As for Dark Samus' theme, oddly enough it's probably not in. It seems like the lists go in game release order and Samus Returns' music is at the end, that means that it's likely that the last two songs are from Samus Returns, and since we don't see Dark Samus' theme among the rest it likely wasn't included.

 

[Noipoi]

It's pretty easy to tell from all the legendaries high up the list that quite a few were expecting to get the highest voted Pokemon as a gift, so instead of voting for what they liked they voted for the rarest Pokemon they wanted. That would probably skew the legendary results quite a bit.
Side note, LOVE the Sylveon love in the poll though. It got 5th and it's the most popular Eeveelution even above Eevee? Those voters got taste.

Well Sylveon has the added benefit of being the newest type and the newest Eeveeloution so far, when we get a new one they might take first place.
I do agree though, those voters have taste.

 

[Kuon]

I always thought that cloud was Master Hand actually xDU.

I never really noticed anything in the clouds until now

 

[P.Kat]

Shovel Knight became an Assist Trophy and people are probably looking a bit too much into the new Jammies mode which the premise is an ultimate sleepover with everyone being invited.

To be fair, WayForard do seem like the type to low key hint this type of stuff, no matter how coincidental it can be, plus the free update could not only be a thank you to all who purchased the game, but a low key celebration of Shantae making into Smash. I'm not saying it's certain, but it's something worth keeping an eye on.

You mean you weren't aware before?

Well to be fair I wasn't aware either, but wow that song is amazing.

 

[RandomAce]

I never really noticed anything in the clouds until now

It reminds me of that thing with Smash 4.

“PAC MAN IS IN THE CLOUDS IN THE GRENINJA TRAILER, HE CONFIRMED!”

I swear, even though PAC Man is in Smash, this is just as bad as people looking into the whole chairs thing.

 

[NintenRob]

I agree. I feel we're letting the hype get to us a bit as it seems like we're thinking that the next newcomer must surpass the previous, which has never been the trend before (which N30N put it best) and thinking in trends has burned us badly before. We can easily have a character that follows King K. Rool that doesn't quite match his hype, and I don't think we should restrict our speculation like that as I feel we'll skip over a number of potential characters.



Gardevoir for Gen 3 rep, Genesect for Gen 5 rep, sounds good to me!



Probably, Torrid means very hot and that theme is used in all of those areas in their lava sections, so it likely would be that song.

As for Dark Samus' theme, oddly enough it's probably not in. It seems like the lists go in game release order and Samus Returns' music is at the end, that means that it's likely that the last two songs are from Samus Returns, and since we don't see Dark Samus' theme among the rest it likely wasn't included.

3 Samus Return songs? EXCELLENT

Hoping Torrid is Lower Midair and the other two songs are lower Brinstar and Diggernaut

 

[Capybara Gaming]

It reminds me of that thing with Smash 4.

“PAC MAN IS IN THE CLOUDS IN THE GRENINJA TRAILER, HE CONFIRMED!”

I swear, even though PAC Man is in Smash, this is just as bad as people looking into the whole chairs thing.

GuYS sHUlK iS a PHotOSHopPed LiTTlE MaC!

 

[BeardyBennett]

GuYS sHUlK iS a PHotOSHopPed LiTTlE MaC!

My uncle works at Nintendo and he said you can play as Master Chief in Melee by plugging in and unplugging the fourth controller on Temple when you're on the lowest platform.

 

[DarkFalcon]

Probably, Torrid means very hot and that theme is used in all of those areas in their lava sections, so it likely would be that song.

As for Dark Samus' theme, oddly enough it's probably not in. It seems like the lists go in game release order and Samus Returns' music is at the end, that means that it's likely that the last two songs are from Samus Returns, and since we don't see Dark Samus' theme among the rest it likely wasn't included.

Dark Samus' theme would be a very strange omission. Unless there's some weird legal issue keeping them from using it I don't see why it'd be excluded.

 

[perfectchaos83]

To be fair, WayForard do seem like the type to low key hint this type of stuff, no matter how coincidental it can be, plus the free update could not only be a thank you to all who purchased the game, but a low key celebration of Shantae making into Smash. I'm not saying it's certain, but it's something worth keeping an eye on.

Shantae's one of my most wanted, She just happens to be a pipedream character. I'd be ecstatic if she's an assist even. So I'm just trying to take that "hint" in stride cause I don't wanna set myself up for disappointment like I somewhat did for Ashley (of which I'm still sad about).

 

[P.Kat]

Shantae's one of my most wanted, She just happens to be a pipedream character. I'd be ecstatic if she's an assist even. So I'm just trying to take that "hint" in stride cause I don't wanna set myself up for disappointment like I somewhat did for Ashley.

Yeah same here, after that happened I've been quite unsure of my wanted newcomers chances now even with DLC on the horizon .

 

[Omega Tyrant]

You're missing the key points here.

1. Generation 1 has the nostalgia factor. Everyone and their mother can know and recognize the original 151.

If what matters is representing the "relevant gen", then a gen 1 mon wouldn't be considered for that, especially when at the time of Brawl there was already Pikachu, Jigglypuff, and Mewtwo in Smash.

2. It actually FIT a theme.

This is exactly what I said and why Ivysaur ever became a thing at all in Smash? Once again:

"he made Ivysaur a playable character in Brawl when gen 1 wasn't the relevant gen and when it's not remotely a popular pokemon nor ever thought of by anyone as a Smash-viable character, yet chose it because it fitted a theme he was going for (a Pokemon Trainer character that only used gen 1 starters and had three pokemon that were each in different stagees of evolution, and it just happened to be the line that was left with a middle evolution slot)."

3. Starters are ALWAYS important and markettable. They're the first 'mon you see, damnit.

There are many other starters that exist and people generally don't care for middle evolutions as is with few exceptions, and Ivysaur is definitely not one of those exceptions. Maybe people would think of Bulbasaur for Smash or maybe even Venusaur, but no one would be thinking of Ivysaur being Smash-viable character on its own and everyone would have laughed at any leak pre-PT's reveal that claimed Ivysaur would be playable in Brawl.

Ivysaur maybe a "lucky" inclusion, but at least from a marketting standpoint, it makes sense. I doubt most people even remember the highly-forgettable Gothita line even exists, let alone likes it. The only reason I, your above-average Nintendo fan, knows what it is is from a damn spinoff designed to highlight some of the less popular 'mon in the first place, designed during the time Gen 5 was relevant. And Gen 5 is one of the most popular gens in Japan! And even then, Gothitelle didn't make it into the Top FOUR HUNDRED.

No one is arguing Gothielle is remotely popular, popularity would have nothing to do with its inclusion here and you're missing the point. A Gothielle Echo being a thing at all would simply be another lucky inclusion that happened to conveniently fit a preconceived idea like Ivysaur and Pichu before, in this hypothetical case of Sakurai trying to add playable representation to the missing gens and doing so in a manner that would be able to fit developmental constraints. The better angle to try seeing this from is what gen 3 + gen 5 pokemon combo would provide a newcomer inclusion on par or more popular than Gardevoir while having a workable Echo in the other gen, or even what popular pokemon is there from gen 3 or 5 that would be a workable Echo of any existing playable character, Gothielle is the afterthought here. Hell there's even just the possibility of this being a "Sakurai pick" where he really liked the idea of adding Gardevoir as a Smash character instead of another relevant gen pick and came up with what he thought was a neat idea for an Echo of her.

Pretty much the gist of what I'm saying is, dismissing leaks just because it claims something that people think would "never happen" or "never work" is a poor practice without objective evidence against it happening (such as project plan timing), as legitimate leaks have always had people dismiss them for such reasons (like everyone was dismissing Ninka's leak at first because it said things like Shulk switching between different stat-altering modes, Bowser Jr. in the Clown Car with Koopaling alts, and Duck Hunt Dog). I'm in agreement with you that bothering with a Gothielle Echo at all is absurd and think there's little chance of the leak being true, but it's better to look at it from an angle of how it could happen rather than assume it never will.

 

[Enchess]

Don't know if it's been mentioned, but it just now occurs to me that Squad Strike might well be incoorporated into Event mode and that'll make for some awesome events. I've been limiting myself way too much in potential events by restricting myself to only one playable character

 

[Pakky]

Spoiler: King K Rool vs WFT

Okay yeah that's funny.

 

[Wambo]

(Off the current topic, but I love how K.Rool's idle animation is just him standing still and doing weird **** with his hands. That's exactly what he did in the DKC games and it's a strange little thing I like.)

I love how much everyone is starting to talk about Geno and include him in fan art. Hopefully Sakurai knew he would start blowing up more after Ridley/K.Rool's reveals, otherwise this new wave of supporters are gonna be disappointed if he's not in at this point.

If/when he is revealed though, TerminalMontage is gonna lose his ****ing mind. And so will I.

 

[DarkFalcon]

Idunno what to expect with Geno. He's not on my want list really, and I'm not sure if I expect him or not. He's absolutely highly requested, but I don't know what to expect with SE. They seem pretty stingy.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Honestly, Pokemon Trainer isn't really about nostalgia. Let's be honest, if you're going to use a Trainer design for a switch mechanic to represent the actual gameplay, you'll use the most recognizable one by far. Red is the most recognizable design, though a lot of it is due to the anime and Ash being based upon him(the anime did appear before the games in some regions). People know that design because it's severely prominent, mostly cause of the anime.

Then you have the choices; Charizard and Blastoise were both considered. Charizard obviously won hardcore popularity-wise. After that, Blastoise also wasn't as easy to translate into Smash, so they went with Squirtle, who also happened to have a lot of anime popularity. But more importantly, was easier to work with. That left Ivysaur to come up, who wasn't really told to us as some kind of important selection. It was just the "well, we need one more".

That's not nostalgia pandering. It's recognizability. These are all iconic choices. Plus, Pokemon Trainer was based upon the Gen 3 remade designs. This isn't pandering strictly to Gen 1 even then, but obviously they were going to use the current designs either way. Easier work and all.

Not every Pokemon Sakurai chooses is simply because of nostalgia or "this gen". There are other points to consider. Pichu is yet another perfect example as if it weren't for being an easy clone, it wouldn't have gotten in. Being part of Gen II is more of a coincidence, but being the latest Gen at the time of development did somewhat help.

 

[Wambo]

Idunno what to expect with Geno. He's not on my want list really, and I'm not sure if I expect him or not. He's absolutely highly requested, but I don't know what to expect with SE. They seem pretty stingy.

They seemed pretty okay with letting him be a Mii costume, I don't think having him as a fighter is too out of the question.

It'd also be really weird for Square to hold onto a character they're never gonna use. Even if there was some sort of rights issue, I can't imagine he'd be too expensive for Sakurai or Nintendo to afford.

 

[Enchess]

Idunno what to expect with Geno. He's not on my want list really, and I'm not sure if I expect him or not. He's absolutely highly requested, but I don't know what to expect with SE. They seem pretty stingy.

I think Geno is getting in as an AT. Hopefully that doesn't piss off Geno fans (I think they'd be cool from what I've seen). He has a lot of the same problems Waluigi has for playability, but worse in some cases. He is a side character from a spinoff, and on top of that it's old and not familiar at all to mainstream. Like wouldn't even a little bit surprised if Isaac and even Saki are more easily recognized by the average player.

I'll quite enjoy a playable Geno if it happens, but I can easily see Sakurai being worried about recognizeability.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

They seemed pretty okay with letting him be a Mii costume, I don't think having him as a fighter is too out of the question.

It'd also be really weird for Square to hold onto a character they're never gonna use. Even if there was some sort of rights issue, I can't imagine he'd be too expensive for Sakurai or Nintendo to afford.

Plus, with limited time to make a DLC character, Geno obviously took a backseat to Cloud. This isn't an issue for Smash Ultimate. So unless there's higher priority characters or SE outright said no to using the character, he has a pretty good chance to be in.

 

[DarkFalcon]

They seemed pretty okay with letting him be a Mii costume, I don't think having him as a fighter is too out of the question.

It'd also be really weird for Square to hold onto a character they're never gonna use. Even if there was some sort of rights issue, I can't imagine he'd be too expensive for Sakurai or Nintendo to afford.

That's the thing. SE seems like a company that'd think "what would we gain?" from letting Geno back. With Cloud it's easy marketing for the FF7 remake, and even then he seems to have the bare minimum in Smash.

I could entirely be speaking out of my butt here but that's how I feel about it.

 

[KMDP]

Gardevoir for Gen 3 rep, Genesect for Gen 5 rep, sounds good to me!

Incidentally this is what I would have gone for, even disregarding the Poll.

Well to be fair I wasn't aware either, but wow that song is amazing.

Amazing. And very very silly.