Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Enchess]

That's the thing. SE seems like a company that'd think "what would we gain?" from letting Geno back. With Cloud it's easy marketing for the FF7 remake, and even then he seems to have the bare minimum in Smash.

I could entirely be speaking out of my butt here but that's how I feel about it.

Well your butt's speaking just fine. Cloud is a huge icon, but if you weren't a gamer you wouldn't know it from his presentation in Smash compared to Ryu and now Simon. The 2 song thing especially is crazy. There's clearly some weirdness happening behind the scenes.

 

[UltimateWario]

Dark Samus' theme would be a very strange omission. Unless there's some weird legal issue keeping them from using it I don't see why it'd be excluded.

I could see it not happening, based on weird omissions from previous Smash games.

I wonder if we’d get music packs as updates or DLC. That’d be nice. I think Metroid has a decent chance at DLC with the release of Prime 4, depending on how DLC is handled. I bet Prime 4 will have some kickass locations that would make great stages that will be ignored for another lava stage.

 

[Wambo]

Plus, with limited time to make a DLC character, Geno obviously took a backseat to Cloud. This isn't an issue for Smash Ultimate. So unless there's higher priority characters or SE outright said no to using the character, he has a pretty good chance to be in.

^ This exactly. And with this pattern of Mii costumes being confirmed as fighters in Ultimate, Geno is almost definitely next in line for reveals.

I'm sure the reason why we didn't get K.Rool/Geno/Chrom/Inklings in Smash Wii U/3DS was because Wii U was a sinking ship. The game didn't save sales, so they did the little they could with DLC and Sakurai started development on Ultimate and it's fighters.

I think Geno is getting in as an AT. Hopefully that doesn't piss off Geno fans (I think they'd be cool from what I've seen). He has a lot of the same problems Waluigi has for playability, but worse in some cases. He is a side character from a spinoff, and on top of that it's old and not familiar at all to mainstream. Like wouldn't even a little bit surprised if Isaac and even Saki are more easily recognized by the average player.

I'll quite enjoy a playable Geno if it happens, but I can easily see Sakurai being worried about recognizeability.

> Ridley, Simon Belmont, Richter Belmont, and K.Rool are all in Smash. Relevancy isn't an issue. I didn't even know who Richter was and I'm down for him.
> Sakurai mentioned Geno numerous times and stated how much of a great fit he is for Smash.
> He literally has a gun for an arm and you think his moveset potential is worse than Waluigi's.

 

[DarkFalcon]

I could see it not happening, based on weird omissions from previous Smash games.

I wonder if we’d get music packs as updates or DLC. That’d be nice. I think Metroid has a decent chance at DLC with the release of Prime 4, depending on how DLC is handled. I bet Prime 4 will have some kickass locations that would make great stages that will be ignored for another lava stage.

I'd be down with DLC costumes too. Let me have a Samus Returns costume please. Also Sylux DLC if he's as prominent as I think he'll be in Prime 4.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Well your butt's speaking just fine. Cloud is a huge icon, but if you weren't a gamer you wouldn't know it from his presentation in Smash compared to Ryu and now Simon. The 2 song thing especially is crazy. There's clearly some weirdness happening behind the scenes.

Well, considering the information we know now, it's just licensing is a *****. No more, no less.

I wouldn't really bank on it meaning anything other than getting those songs is difficult. I.E. other SE franchises, Geno, etc.

 

[Will]

> He literally has a gun for an arm and you think his moveset potential is worse than Waluigi's.

So by default Geno would have good moveset potential?

I'd be down with DLC costumes too. Let me have a Samus Returns costume please. Also Sylux DLC if he's as prominent as I think he'll be in Prime 4.

Listen man I'd be fine with it but I don't want Metroid to become the next Fire Emblem

 

[Koopaul]

Then you have the choices; Charizard and Blastoise were both considered. Charizard obviously won hardcore popularity-wise. After that, Blastoise also wasn't as easy to translate into Smash, so they went with Squirtle, who also happened to have a lot of anime popularity. But more importantly, was easier to work with. That left Ivysaur to come up, who wasn't really told to us as some kind of important selection. It was just the "well, we need one more".

Doesn't it make more sense that they wanted to represent all three starters and show off the three evolutionary stages of starter Pokemon? It also makes sense to have all three Pokemon be of different size weight and speed. It covers all grounds. The iconic Grass/Water/Fire starter trio as well as the first/second/third forms your starter will undergo.

Squirtle represents the water type starter line as well as the first stage of your starter.
Ivysaur represents the Grass type starter as well as the middle evolutionary stage a starter can have.
And Charizard represents the fire type starter and the final evolutionary form a starter will reach.

 

[Jetsurge]

My reveal predictions:
September -
- General Nintendo Direct
- Smash section focuses on online features to tie in with Nintendo online release
- Skull Kid
- Dixie Kong ɛ
- Medusa ɛ

October -
- Smash Direct
- Focus on "Sprirts" mode
- Incineroar
- Bandanna Dee
- Isabelle ɛ
- Impa ɛ

November -
- 50 fact Extravaganza 2
- Chorus Kids
- Geno
- Shadow ɛ
- Ken ɛ
- Ms Pac-Man ɛ

 

[UltimateWario]

I'd be down with DLC costumes too. Let me have a Samus Returns costume please. Also Sylux DLC if he's as prominent as I think he'll be in Prime 4.

They could price Prime and Returns Varia Suits for Samus at $29.99 and I’d happily buy them.

I think having a model where each new Nintendo game that’s released gets a small “Super Smash Bros. Ultimate X [Game Title]” update would be really great. Everyone plays Smash, so having a reminder each time a new game comes out along with a costume, a few songs, a stage, or even a fighter could entice people to check the new game out.

 

[Wambo]

The 2 song thing especially is crazy. There's clearly some weirdness happening behind the scenes.

I'm starting to think the "2 song thing" is Nintendo's weirdness, not Square's.

Cloud debuted in a game outside of a Nintendo console. I can imagine some Nintendo guy was like, "okay, you can put in Cloud because he's the icon for the Final Fantasy series. But you can't advertise the crap out of FF7, especially with the remake coming up."

I feel like it's a "talking about your ex a lot" situation. You can acknowledge FF7, but don't constantly talk about how much better it is.

 

[Deleted member]

One thing people need to remember about Echo Fighters is that they aren't just borrowing animations from another character and that's what makes them so easy, it's the fact they don't need to go through a new full balancing process.
Dark Samus could easily have a different move from Samus but how much wouod that affect her balance? Would it make her too oppressive or less powerful? Or would it just make her a better or worse version than Samus?

One thing that keeps popping up in my head was to give Damus a cloning special, where she would make a clone of herself and have it perform a move or some. I don't know how that would work mechanically but there are a lot of similar things ingame already(creating a summon with its own hitboxes, dual characters) and there would be no new animations needed, but just what that would mean for balance is what doesn't make it worth it, because a single move could change how the entire moveset sinergizes with itself.

 

[Enchess]

>Ridley, Simon Belmont, Richter Belmont, and K.Rool are all in Smash. Relevancy isn't an issue. I didn't even know who Richter was and I'm down for him.
> Sakurai mentioned Geno numerous times and stated how much of a great fit he is for Smash.
> He literally has a gun for an arm and you think his moveset potential is worse than Waluigi's.

The closest thing to a series villain for Metroid, the most well known character from a legendary series, another main protagonist of said legendary series that's extremely popular with the series fan base, and another main villain of a well-loved series. There are different tiers of relevancy. K Rool has always be more on Isaac's level (even then more relevant than Isaac) whereas Geno I'd argue is lower than even Saki.

That said, there are two types of relevancy. Relevancy to modern gaming and relevancy within series. Every (unique) character so far is very strong in the latter (which I've always argued matters more than the former). Geno is strong in neither.

Also I didn't mean moveset potential was worse than Waluigi. Ive always thought Waluigi had nothing to offer whereas Geno sounds like a ton of fun to play. I mean Waluigi never seemed likely for intra-series relevancy, and Geno has THAT much worse.

 

[DarkFalcon]

They could price Prime and Returns Varia Suits for Samus at $29.99 and I’d happily buy them.

I think having a model where each new Nintendo game that’s released gets a small “Super Smash Bros. Ultimate X [Game Title]” update would be really great. Everyone plays Smash, so having a reminder each time a new game comes out along with a costume, a few songs, a stage, or even a fighter could entice people to check the new game out.

It'd definitely be a smart way to do DLC that isn't too taxing like a new fighter. New costumes, songs, etc. packaged together for a few bucks would sell like crazy.

 

[Idon]

One thing people need to remember about Echo Fighters is that they aren't just borrowing animations from another character and that's what makes them so easy, it's the fact they don't need to go through a new full balancing process.
Dark Samus could easily have a different move from Samus but how much wouod that affect her balance? Would it make her too oppressive or less powerful? Or would it just make her a better or worse version than Samus?

One thing that keeps popping up in my head was to give Damus a cloning special, where she would make a clone of herself and have it perform a move or some. I don't know how that would work mechanically but there are a lot of similar things ingame already(creating a summon with its own hitboxes, dual characters) and there would be no new animations needed, but just what that would mean for balance is what doesn't make it worth it, because a single move could change how the entire moveset sinergizes with itself.

Honestly, I feel that if Sakurai wanted, he could easily put a few unique moves in anyway. Sakurai's never strayed from interesting ideas due to potential character imbalance.

 

[Wambo]

So by default Geno would have good moveset potential?

I feel like you're goofin' me, but I'mma respond anyway.

There's already plenty of custom movesets for Geno floating around out there, so I would recommend checking those out yourself. Plus, if the CREATOR of Smash himself says he'd be a perfect fit, I would just take his word for it.

 

[UltimateWario]

Dark Samus’s biggest strength over Samus, even bigger than her dodge, is that she isn’t using an Other M design.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

Hot take: Protoman or Bass or Both will be an echo. They will switch places with Megaman during the final smash.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Doesn't it make more sense that they wanted to represent all three starters and show off the three evolutionary stages of starter Pokemon? It also makes sense to have all three Pokemon be of different size weight and speed. It covers all grounds. The iconic Grass/Water/Fire starter trio as well as the first/second/third forms your starter will undergo.

Squirtle represents the water type starter line as well as the first stage of your starter.
Ivysaur represents the Grass type starter as well as the middle evolutionary stage a starter can have.
And Charizard represents the fire type starter and the final evolutionary form a starter will reach.

He said he wanted Blastoise originally along with Charizard. He changed his mind to show off the evolutionary lines. Ivysaur was the last choice and not really a big deal in the long run. That's the point. The elemental type thing is part of it, but the point was more he wasn't doing any of this to "pander to Gen 1 nostalgia" either. That was honestly just a big coincidence. When the most recognizable design happens to be a Gen 1 design, and the most recognizable Pokemon for Starters are Gen 1? You go with that. That said, the middle lines have always been the most unpopular because they weren't severely interesting designs and basically slightly different from the first form. It's the 1st and 3rd people care about. From what Sakurai talked about, we might've just got Blastoise and Charizard instead, but he evolved his idea in the long run to make it way better(not balance-wise, uniqueness-wise. The type weaknesses were not popular. Fatigue sucked too, but to a lesser degree and it didn't actually do anything to make one particular Pokemon worse than the rest).

Besides that, Greninja is the only Pokemon chosen because of the Gen specifically. While Lucario seems like an example, there's him also being severely pushed and already got good reception right away. And then there's the gameplay mechanic that the team worked with. It is possible he was chosen as a "ideal Gen 4 Pokemon" though. However, the rest weren't. Pikachu was the mascot. Jigglypuff was popular in Japan and easy to implement. Mewtwo was popular as hell and the most most popular Legendary at that point, and still is, making the inclusion easy(at least for Sakurai). I already explained why Pokemon Trainer was more about the mechanics being important, which what you said is also relevant to it too. Pichu was chosen because of an easy clone, and being Gen II was the latest during development, easiest to add(coincidentally was also the mascot for baby Pokemon). Being Gen II may have also influenced it, but I don't remember any articles on that, just the clone part and joke character part.

So despite the tons of Gen 1 Pokemon, they all had vast and unique reasons being added. Not a single one of them were simply because "Gen 1".

 

[DarkFalcon]

Dark Samus’s biggest strength over Samus, even bigger than her dodge, is that she isn’t using an Other M design.

At the very least it's an altered Other M design. I'm hoping for too much but I wish Dark Samus would also have her 2 different Prime 2 looks as well. Doubt it's happening though lol.

 

[Idon]

If we were to get a protoman echo, I'd want to replace all the megamen with Zero/Protomen.
Instead of calling it "Megaman Legends," we could call it "Zero Heroes"
Pick out the red guys here

 

[Shroob]

https://imgur.com/gallery/vMHFg8Q


So looks like someone's finally completely depixelated the Spirits logo

 

[Wambo]

The closest thing to a series villain for Metroid, the most well known character from a legendary series, another main protagonist of said legendary series that's extremely popular with the series fan base, and another main villain of a well-loved series. There are different tiers of relevancy. K Rool has always be more on Isaac's level (even then more relevant than Isaac) whereas Geno I'd argue is lower than even Saki.

That said, there are two types of relevancy. Relevancy to modern gaming and relevancy within series. Every (unique) character so far is very strong in the latter (which I've always argued matters more than the former). Geno is strong in neither.

Also I didn't mean moveset potential was worse than Waluigi. Ive always thought Waluigi had nothing to offer whereas Geno sounds like a ton of fun to play. I mean Waluigi never seemed likely for intra-series relevancy, and Geno has THAT much worse.

There's no types of anything. People either know a character or they don't. I'm sure there were plenty of Fortnite kids out there who didn't know who the hell Simon or K.Rool were when they watched their reveals.

Remember, we're talking about a game that has MR. GAME & WATCH in it. Nobody knew who the hell he was back in the Melee days, whereas more people would've probably recognized Geno. Your point doesn't make any sense. :/

 

[Will]

I feel like you're goofin' me, but I'mma respond anyway.

There's already plenty of custom movesets for Geno floating around out there, so I would recommenced checking those out yourself. Plus, if the CREATOR of Smash himself says he'd be a perfect fit, I would just take his word for it.

If you state that Geno's moveset potential is worse than Waluigi's, that'd be saying it's still good regardless if my point.

https://imgur.com/gallery/vMHFg8Q


So looks like someone's finally completely depixelated the Spirits logo

>Nintendrew
Jesus **** can this madman not do anything?

 

[Jetsurge]

Hot take: Protoman or Bass or Both will be an echo. They will switch places with Megaman during the final smash.

I doubt it since Chrom has probably been removed from Robin's final smash

 

[Shroob]

If you state that Geno's moveset potential is worse than Waluigi's, that'd be saying it's still good regardless if my point.


>Nintendrew
Jesus **** can this madman not do anything?

Who?

 

[Will]

Who?

Boy I'm not Google. I recognized the imgur username easily though

 

[Starbound]

Looking at the menu again, what's up with that blurred out option on the dashboard?

 

[DarkFalcon]

It'd be funny if the spirits thing was just a placeholder hidden behind the censor.

 

[Idon]

Looking at the menu again, what's up with that blurred out option on the dashboard?

Probably tied to the mysterious "Spirits" mode.

 

[UltimateWario]

At the very least it's an altered Other M design. I'm hoping for too much but I wish Dark Samus would also have her 2 different Prime 2 looks as well. Doubt it's happening though lol.

My only complaint with her design is that she doesn’t have her skeleton toes. That and her Morph Ball eye is missing.

Having the Metroid Prime look from the end of 2 in HD would be... -shudder- Oh Baby.

 

[Will]

Looking at the menu again, what's up with that blurred out option on the dashboard?

Probably the same thing as Spirits, if not quick-access to the e-Shop for unexplained reasons. If it's the former, then Spirits must be pretty important to the game.

It'd be funny if the spirits thing was just a placeholder hidden behind the censor.

It's weird that they'd choose spirits as a placeholder name instead of something like menu or whatever.

 

[osby]

I doubt it since Chrom has probably been removed from Robin's final smash

Probably, we didn't see it yet.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

I doubt it since Chrom has probably been removed from Robin's final smash

Even so, I believe

 

[Idon]

Man, replaying the Prime 3 Dark Samus fight, I'm just like "that coulda been a smash move... that one too... oh that would be sick as a smash move."
Uuuugh, if this is the last smash and this is how Dark Samus is doomed to be, I'm gonna be disappointed.

 

[Jetsurge]

It'd be funny if the spirits thing was just a placeholder hidden behind the censor.

Sakurai should've put a placeholder saying "Waluigi will never be in Smash"

 

[SonicMario]

I'm starting to think the "2 song thing" is Nintendo's weirdness, not Square's.

Cloud debuted in a game outside of a Nintendo console. I can imagine some Nintendo guy was like, "okay, you can put in Cloud because he's the icon for the Final Fantasy series. But you can't advertise the crap out of FF7, especially with the remake coming up."

I feel like it's a "talking about your ex a lot" situation. You can acknowledge FF7, but don't constantly talk about how much better it is.

Symphony of the Night was never on a Nintendo console. Yet the stage, Dracula, Alucard assist trophy, heck even Richter's quote in the reveal trailer seems to heavily reference that game. And a whole ton of music (Granted might be from all over Castlevania's history but I imagine a good chunk of the 36 is from SotN). Maybe FF7 could be a particularly sour spot for Nintendo given it was part of the Nintendo/Sony split that launched the Playstation. But if Nintendo and/or Sakurai was this petty over games that never made it on a Nintendo console, I doubt SotN gets the huge amount of references it got in all the Castlevania content we got in that last direct.

 

[Icedragonadam]

Wait a minute, Ridley's final smash has him destroy Samus's ship along with the opponent, then it escalated with King K. Rool destroying DK Isle along with their opponent, then that means if Skull Kid gets in.........

Spoiler

OH ****!!!!!!!

 

[Deleted member]

Honestly, I feel that if Sakurai wanted, he could easily put a few unique moves in anyway. Sakurai's never strayed from interesting ideas due to potential character imbalance.

But t you can't just release an untested combination of moves, what if it ends up being too powerful? You need time to test it out and constantly make adjustments to the fighter, and that's what prevents Echo Fighters from borrowing moves from multiple characters.
Chrom is the only exception so far and I'd be willing to bet he was one of the first of them to be thought of.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

https://imgur.com/gallery/vMHFg8Q


So looks like someone's finally completely depixelated the Spirits logo

I'm glad uncovering that section didn't immediately spoil what it was, whatever Spirit may end up being.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I doubt it since Chrom has probably been removed from Robin's final smash

I wouldn't count on that until we see this for a fact. While I believe he has been removed, it's not a good argument to make at this time.