Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Lukingordex]

The main issue I see with the idea of an ARMS character is that they're obviously going to be trading power for range.

They could hit from afar, but those hits aren't going to be particularly strong because that would be imbalanced if they were.

I think it's likely their moves would have a considerable amount of end lag, so you'd be able to sh airdodge to avoid and punish them, for example

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

The main issue I see with the idea of an ARMS character is that they're obviously going to be trading power for range.

They could hit from afar, but those hits aren't going to be particularly strong because that would be imbalanced if they were.

I think it's likely their moves would have a considerable amount of end lag, so you'd be able to sh airdodge to avoid and punish them, for example

Or a lot of startup.

Either way, an ARMS character would be more about rewarding good spacing and patient play rather than rushing down on your opponent.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yoshi and Wario are still Mario characters. Just because Smash represents them by their spin-off franchises doesn't mean they're any less of a Mario character.

As the series continues, the roster is going to grow. Since we've gotten to the point where transferring data across consoles can work, sooner or later a franchise is going to break the seven character limit... And then the eight character limit... And then the nine character limit. The characters from more niche series like Punch Out and Xenoblade just can't compete with the iconic cast of Mario and Pokemon. It's not fair to say, "Hold on a sec! Mario and Pokemon have seven characters! We'll have to limit how many characters we add so the other franchises can catch up!" I can't see Sakurai going out of his way to avoid obvious additions from AAA titles just because their franchises are getting a little heavy in numbers.

The roster isn't going to grow enough to remotely get 10 of any franchise by Smash 5. It's going to take multiple games to do that.

Mario has 7 so far, Yoshi and Wario have 1 each, and DK has 2 only. All different franchises. With different courses, different music, different characters, different Trophies. Wario pretty much has zip to do with Mario now. Yoshi is still tied, though. DK is completely separated anyway. Pokemon has actually had a total of 9 so far, however it won't expand beyond 8 at most realistically in the next game(and that's being kind to how much it could get). That'd be super lucky to get 2 Pokemon newcomers in Smash 5. It wasn't coincidence we got 1 Pokemon in Smash 4. The series was getting too huge to add multiple options by that point. If it was actually possible, they'd have done so. There's still other Pokemon noteworthy enough(Gen 1 or otherwise) that easily can get a character(Meowth is pretty much one of the few blatant Gen 1 Pokemon left), and even then, if they didn't have a roster size issue, we could've easily gotten Pichu, Ivysaur, and/or Squirtle back. The reality is, though, there is a roster size to care about(and we know it's more than just overbloating a huge enough series, but also for balance reasons).

Still, it's important to remember that even though Yoshi, Wario, and Donkey Kong represent their own franchises in the Super Smash Bros. series, they're still part of the Mario universe as a whole; this is further evidenced by their Mario Kart trophies in Smash 3DS / Wii U. Of course, Yoshi has the strongest ties to the Super Mario franchise, since he faces the same set of enemies as Mario, and the two even share the same major antagonist.

And before I forget, Kamek and Poochy used to be Yoshi's Island exclusives, but now, the former also appears in certain Super Mario titles (such as New Super Mario Bros. Wii), while the latter made his Super Mario series debut in Super Mario Odyssey.

Which isn't entirely the point. Just because some Yoshi characters are transferred to the Mario series doesn't mean much. They still are Yoshi characters either way and should have the proper symbol.

The Mario series just had plain more relevant newcomers that made more sense. DK has jack-all to do with Mario in Smash, and is beyond separated outside of what, Event Matches that put some universes together at best? Yoshi is blatantly a separate series, however, the fact its character make Mario regular game appearances is... not actually that relevant as an issue. It's the fact that Yoshi has newcomer choices that aren't all that viable that is the issue. Kamek still would easily fall under the Yoshi umbrella unless it was the Paper Mario version at best. You then realize that viability plays a far bigger role in options. And the reality is, Yoshi has no real easily viable options. Wario suffers in a similar way. While there's some cool choices, those choices also don't have easy and obvious movesets either. Just adding a pirate in Captain Syrup(who again has jack-all to do with Mario anyway) isn't enough of a reason. It's whether you can find a moveset that works. Never mind how important recency is. When's the last Wario game? At best, Ashley can be argued due to the constant promotion, but that doesn't give her an obvious moveset. She's a mage. Um... so what then? We don't know, because we don't have information on exactly all the details of her various spells. So he needs to have a straight moveset inspiration. Or a gimmick to base it off of. Till then, she's not some easy pick. DK has recency problems with K. Rool, already a moveset idea that won't work at all with Dixie(at least in Smash 4 regular. Tag Team was impossible then. So he'd have to wait for a Switch version to potentially do it, but does he even want to? It'd be neat, but it's also possible he only was interested in having her as a partner for Diddy and won't budge on it. Hopefully that stance changes, but considering she wasn't even in as a semi-clone of Diddy, it's not impossible to think that the tag team thing is something he thinks is important).

 

[TheLastJinjo]

We should never be asking ourselves what character a series needs to have. All that matters is what would be a good Nintendo character. Not what would be a good Metroid character or a good Yoshi character or a good Wario character.

The reason there aren't any Yoshi or Wario newcomers is because there aren't any that are considered iconic Nintendo characters compared to what the game normally introduces.

"Rep" is meaningless term. There are no "reps" and characters don't get in because of "representation". Characters get in on their own merits alone. Not from the series they are from or because they would inflate the number of characters a series has in order to rival another series.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

We should never be asking ourselves what character a series needs to have. All that matters is what would be a good Nintendo character. Not what would be a good Metroid character or a good Yoshi character or a good Wario character.

The reason there aren't any Yoshi or Wario newcomers is because there aren't any that are considered iconic Nintendo characters compared to what the game normally introduces.

"Rep" is meaningless term. There are no "reps" and characters don't get in because of "representation". Characters get in on their own merits alone. Not from the series they are from or because they would inflate the number of characters a series has in order to rival another series.

Except we know for a fact Sakurai cares about representation. It's in fact very important to him. So it's better to think of it how the actual development works. He doesn't add just anyone because "iconic". Iconic is actually a relevant factor to 3rd parties only at this point, or sometimes retros. Also, keep in mind he was hesitant on adding Corrin because he didn't want to overrepresent Fire Emblem. So it does actually matter.

If he wanted to drop this, he'd have dropped the series symbol thing. Let's also keep in mind he was worried about overrepping the Kirby series in Melee, part of why he tried to keep the bare minimum, including a single character. He dropped this thought during Brawl, of course.

Unfortunately(or fortunately, depending who you ask), series representation is an extremely relevant thing to how Smash works. It may not always be the case, but it has been for the first 5 games(well, Smash 4 is a split game, after all).

 

[Deleted member]

Yoshi is basically a Mario character with his own symbol. That's literally it. Everything about the Yoshi "series" and the main Mario franchise in Smash is interchangeable at this point.
We have a stage from Super Mario World count as a "Yoshi" stage.
We have Kamek count as a "Mario" character in Smash 4.
We have the Baby trophies count as "Yoshi" trophies in Brawl and "Mario" trophies in Smash 4.
etc.

There is nothing "blatant" about the Yoshi series being its own series. Honestly, it's only its own "series" in Smash because that's how it was introduced in Smash 64. Had Yoshi have been added to Smash now for some reason, he would have the Mario symbol rather than his own.

Just adding a pirate in Captain Syrup(who again has jack-all to do with Mario anyway)

Aside from her debut, you mean.
She did steal a statue of Princess Peach that Mario had to reclaim at the end of the original Wario Land (even though Wario did all the work to get to it).

 

[Dragoncharystary]

Better idea.

Even better idea.

 

[Rosalinatehplumber]

@GoldenYuiitusin Which is why he is place after Bowser but before Rosalina. In Brawl when you are selecting a Mario sticker (ex.Dr.Mario) Yoshi is placed with the Mario cast.

 

[Deleted member]

@GoldenYuiitusin Which is why he is place after Bowser but before Rosalina. In Brawl when you are selecting a Mario sticker (ex.Dr.Mario) Yoshi is placed with the Mario cast.

Exactly.

Yoshi is treated within Smash at this point as a Mario character, moreso than DK or Wario (and even then, WarioWare is literally the only reason why he gets some degree of isolation).

 

[Rosalinatehplumber]

Exactly.

Yoshi is treated within Smash at this point as a Mario character, moreso than DK or Wario (and even then, WarioWare is literally the only reason why he gets some degree of isolation).

Indeed, heck Wario comes after Bowser Jr but before DK.

 

[Pacack]

It's been a long time, everyone.

I'm just here to give my two cents. This roster is my personal ideal, and assumes an entirely new Smash instead of a port. I fully admit that this roster is not how things are ultimately going to turn out.

Spoiler: Roster

Spoiler: Reasoning

Newcomers: Captain Toad, Dixie Kong, Takamaru, Sylux, Daitoryo, Bandana Dee, Decidueye, Alph, Elma, Rex, Inkling, Spring Man, Sora, Steve (14, 1 clone)
Returning: Ice Climbers, Wolf (2)

Captain Toad: A popular, technically new character from the Mario franchise. Has appeared in 4 games to date, including one in which he is the star. A perfectly logical choice for a newcomer. (Certainty High)

Dixie Kong: A popular character from a popular franchise who is somewhat in the spotlight as of late. While not a clone by any means, Dixie would also be an appealing choice due to having Diddy Kong's model to start with. (Certainty High)

Takamaru: A black sheep of Nintendo's past, but also the most popular retro character whose series could see a revival. I personally love his game, and the character as well, though I do acknowledge that he is by no means a lock. (Certainty Moderately Low)

Sylux: The Metroid series is seeing a significant amount of attention, and Sylux is the villain candidate who seems most probable given Sakurai's stance on Ridley. I fully expect Sylux to play a significant role in Metroid Prime 4, and it seems to be the perfect chance for the character. (Certainty Moderate)

Daitoryo: I do not believe that I'm crazy in seeing a pattern of retro and historical characters. Each game since Melee has included one "retro" character (Ice Climbers, Pit, Little Mac) and one "history" character (Mr. Game and Watch, R.O.B., Duck Hunt). If this pattern continues, I believe the most reasonable addition would be the stylized depiction of Napoleon from the "President" style Hanafuda cards that Nintendo has produced since its inception. That said, I did not see Duck Hunt as a potential historical character at first despite the game's origins as an early arcade game, so I fully admit that I could be wrong. (Certainty Low)

Bandana Dee: The Kirby series has done very well recently, and is set to release another game for the Switch. I do not think it is improbable that this character could be included, especially if Sakurai is still the next game's director. That said, I do not consider him as likely a character as many do. (Certainty Moderate)

Decidueye: Admittedly something of a placeholder, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see this popular Gen 7 Pokemon in the next Smash. That said, it has a lot of competition from within its own series, and could very, very easily be passed over in favor of a newer Pokemon by the time the next Smash game comes out. (Certainty Moderately Low)

Alph: An off-the-wall pick from me, but I could very easily see Sakurai revisiting the idea of making Alph a clone who uses shield-breaking Rock Pikmin. (Certainty Low)

Elma: A unique, popular character from one of Nintendo's newest series, I could definitely see Elma making it into the next Smash Bros, especially seeing as her game is likely to receive both a sequel and a port in due time. (The game ended on a cliffhanger.) That said, she faces the distinct possibility of being shafted in favor of Rex instead of being added alongside him. However, I'm leaning towards both of them being included, especially since Elma arguably represents an entirely different series from Shulk and Rex. (Certainty Moderate)

Rex: While I'm unsure whether Rex will fight alongside Pyra or with Pyra in the background, I'm pretty sure he's on Smash's radar. That said, he does share many traits with Shulk, namely in his swordfighting style, and he faces very real competition from Elma, who could potentially be added before him. He may or may not be too recent a character, but I'm going to say not. (Certainty Moderate)

Inkling: Duh. Do I need to explain? (Certainty Very High)

Spring Man: While not definite given his game's lackluster reception, Spring Man does offer a new playstyle to Smash. If a series newer than Splatoon is being represented, then ARMS will be it, imo. (Certainty Moderately High)

*Sora: Hear me out. While a longshot by any measure given his legal status, there has been a statement by Square Enix that Kingdom Hearts 3 could appear on Switch alongside other games in the franchise, albeit not until the former's release on other consoles. His inclusion would be a potential game and console seller, and he's ridiculously popular. I've talked with a lot of casual gaming fans, and his name comes up a lot when discussing Smash, even being many of my friends' most wanted. That said, he is not a character I'm banking on. This is a longshot prediction from me. (Certainty Very Low)

*Steve: While not a character I support, per se, he's undeniably popular and iconic. If the Microsoft thing isn't too high a hurdle, then I could see him happening. (Certainty Low)

*I'm very, very hesitant to say who the next third party characters will be, and I expect to be wrong. My conservative guess on how many we'll see is two, but I could be wrong on that as well. Replace the two above with any combination of Rayman/Rabbids *shudders*, Shovel Knight, Shantae, Bomberman, Snake, and a Dragon Quest character.

Ice Climbers: I mean, the only reason they weren't in Sm4sh to begin with was the 3DS. (Certainty: Highest)

Wolf: Very popular, a veteran, and easy to bring back. (Certainty: High)

Lots of love, all.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Indeed, heck Wario comes after Bowser Jr but before DK.

And Yoshi came after DK in Brawl. There's zero consistency in how Yoshi is treated, beyond obviously being related to Mario(which is beyond logical anyway). Yoshi also came after Ness in Smash 64. Only in Melee did he come right after the Mario series, till he was thrown inbetween the Mario characters instead of being after Rosaline, which would've looked a lot better.


First take a look at this setup. This just looks odd since Yoshi was thrown simply close to the Mario series, but not on the same line either.

Melee, on the other hand, is pretty similar to Smash 4's handling of Yoshi's spot. Remove Bowser Jr. and Rosalina, and it's about the same. Brawl, however...






The issue is clearly Sakurai just doesn't know where to put him at all at this point. Being tied to Mario in a natural way is fine. But completely making the roster look weird was just pointless at that time. It looked inconsistent design-wise, since while Yoshi is a Mario character at heart, he isn't one proper the way Smash does it. There was justifications for some of the other Smash 4 roster spots, as only Yoshi stuck out like a sore tail. Obviously his symbol had no chance of changing(and probably wasn't going to change even if he was introduced in Melee or Brawl), but just doing debut order was his clear goal for the expanded Mario Universe. And it looked strange to see a character from another series splitting up the Mario ones.

Let's keep in mind many people did think it looked weird, since despite the fact Yoshi is tied to Mario, they expected him separate like every other Smash game. It didn't fit in either like the rest of the roster divisions. The clone trio was last in development, and thus separated.. Mii Fighters were last due to not existing on the roster till you created one. The DLC was in order of release. Not counting how the Smash 4 roster looks severely divided as is, you get the feeling that there wasn't as much effort put in to care about perfect placements either. Then again, isn't it Sakurai's wife who does the roster placements, not him? Would explain how Yoshi has been beyond inconsistent as is. Nobody knows what to do with the dino.

 

[Luminario]

IDEA: Pokemon trainer infested by a bug pokemon. The trainer has white eyes like Paras and shuffles around like something is moving the limbs by pressing from the inside. The trainer is powerful, but after a certain percentage of damage, the bug pokemon bursts out of its now useless flesh shell to attack on its own.

God, the thought of that actually makes me queasy. Something straight outta the film The Mist.

On to a less horrifying idea, what about a Pokemon Trainer that fights alongside all the different Eevee evolutions (or just Eevee fighting with it's evos)? All the different evos could pop up throughout their moveset, with neutral B changing depending on which evo appeared last or something.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Kamek was in super Mario world before he was in super Mario world 2.

But was it THE Kamek, or just a generic Magikoopa? Generic Magikoopas are easily taken out by a single attack, but Kamek himself has proven to be more resilient than the other members of the Magikoopa species.

Of course, you do have to blame the region differences, since in Mario Party 9, the NTSC-U version uses the name Magikoopa, while the PAL version uses the name Kamek.

 

[FantasticMr.StarPit]

Playing fast and loose with the term “guaranteed”, aren’t we?

Only anyone could dream. Not saying they're guaranteed and all, but they're possible. Who knows.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

So it's better to think of it how the actual development works.

That's pretty a pretty snarky insult for a moderator. But, my main issue is that you're projecting that criticism on to me rather than yourself.

Except we know for a fact Sakurai cares about representation.

Cares about it =/= Obsessed with it.

It's in fact very important to him.

My point was that it's not so important that he would put someone like Kamek or Sylux in the game for the sole reason of "muh representation"

He doesn't add just anyone because "iconic".

That's such an oversimplification of what I was saying that it's actually quite offensive. I never once even remotely or slightly implied such a thing.

Also, keep in mind he was hesitant on adding Corrin because he didn't want to overrepresent Fire Emblem. So it does actually matter.

I didn't say it doesn't matter. You're comparing a situation of a character being held back to character's just being shoe horned in willy nilly because of representation.

My point was that sometimes, one character is enough representation.

If he wanted to drop this, he'd have dropped the series symbol thing.

Hold on. WHAT?! What does the series symbol have to do with this?

Let's also keep in mind he was worried about overrepping the Kirby series in Melee, part of why he tried to keep the bare minimum, including a single character. He dropped this thought during Brawl, of course.

Once again, you're talking about overrepresentation. Not what I was talking about.

Unfortunately(or fortunately, depending who you ask), series representation is an extremely relevant thing to how Smash works. It may not always be the case, but it has been for the first 5 games(well, Smash 4 is a split game, after all).

Representation is not a sufficient criteria unless the character has their OWN credentials. I'm saying BOTH are necessary and you're trying to turn it into one or the other.

The reason people talk about Sylux getting into the game is because "Well we need another Metroid character." That's a case of someone relying on representation alone, rather than the actual merits of the character they are proposing.

If I try to point out that you can't put someone in on representation alone, you construe that as "representation is completely irrelevant in all ways."

If I try to point out that it's important for a character to be iconic or have some merits of his own. You construe that as "Oh, so you're saying that's all that matters!"

One or the other is not all that matters. That's the point I was making. It's not black & white.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Isn't Kamek non-existent in Japan as well, as the Japanese name for all Magikoopas are "Kameks"?

With that in mind I think that is why Kamek isn't in Smash yet; the "Kamek" in the Yoshi's Island games is just an ordinary Magikoopa in Japan.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It's been a long time, everyone.

I'm just here to give my two cents. This roster is my personal ideal, and assumes an entirely new Smash instead of a port. I fully admit that this roster is not how things are ultimately going to turn out.

Spoiler: Roster

Spoiler: Reasoning

Newcomers: Captain Toad, Dixie Kong, Takamaru, Sylux, Daitoryo, Bandana Dee, Decidueye, Alph, Elma, Rex, Inkling, Spring Man, Sora, Steve (14, 1 clone)
Returning: Ice Climbers, Wolf (2)

Captain Toad: A popular, technically new character from the Mario franchise. Has appeared in 4 games to date, including one in which he is the star. A perfectly logical choice for a newcomer. (Certainty High)

Dixie Kong: A popular character from a popular franchise who is somewhat in the spotlight as of late. While not a clone by any means, Dixie would also be an appealing choice due to having Diddy Kong's model to start with. (Certainty High)

Takamaru: A black sheep of Nintendo's past, but also the most popular retro character whose series could see a revival. I personally love his game, and the character as well, though I do acknowledge that he is by no means a lock. (Certainty Moderately Low)

Sylux: The Metroid series is seeing a significant amount of attention, and Sylux is the villain candidate who seems most probable given Sakurai's stance on Ridley. I fully expect Sylux to play a significant role in Metroid Prime 4, and it seems to be the perfect chance for the character. (Certainty Moderate)

Daitoryo: I do not believe that I'm crazy in seeing a pattern of retro and historical characters. Each game since Melee has included one "retro" character (Ice Climbers, Pit, Little Mac) and one "history" character (Mr. Game and Watch, R.O.B., Duck Hunt). If this pattern continues, I believe the most reasonable addition would be the stylized depiction of Napoleon from the "President" style Hanafuda cards that Nintendo has produced since its inception. That said, I did not see Duck Hunt as a potential historical character at first despite the game's origins as an early arcade game, so I fully admit that I could be wrong. (Certainty Low)

Bandana Dee: The Kirby series has done very well recently, and is set to release another game for the Switch. I do not think it is improbable that this character could be included, especially if Sakurai is still the next game's director. That said, I do not consider him as likely a character as many do. (Certainty Moderate)

Decidueye: Admittedly something of a placeholder, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see this popular Gen 7 Pokemon in the next Smash. That said, it has a lot of competition from within its own series, and could very, very easily be passed over in favor of a newer Pokemon by the time the next Smash game comes out. (Certainty Moderately Low)

Alph: An off-the-wall pick from me, but I could very easily see Sakurai revisiting the idea of making Alph a clone who uses shield-breaking Rock Pikmin. (Certainty Low)

Elma: A unique, popular character from one of Nintendo's newest series, I could definitely see Elma making it into the next Smash Bros, especially seeing as her game is likely to receive both a sequel and a port in due time. (The game ended on a cliffhanger.) That said, she faces the distinct possibility of being shafted in favor of Rex instead of being added alongside him. However, I'm leaning towards both of them being included, especially since Elma arguably represents an entirely different series from Shulk and Rex. (Certainty Moderate)

Rex: While I'm unsure whether Rex will fight alongside Pyra or with Pyra in the background, I'm pretty sure he's on Smash's radar. That said, he does share many traits with Shulk, namely in his swordfighting style, and he faces very real competition from Elma, who could potentially be added before him. He may or may not be too recent a character, but I'm going to say not. (Certainty Moderate)

Inkling: Duh. Do I need to explain? (Certainty Very High)

Spring Man: While not definite given his game's lackluster reception, Spring Man does offer a new playstyle to Smash. If a series newer than Splatoon is being represented, then ARMS will be it, imo. (Certainty Moderately High)

*Sora: Hear me out. While a longshot by any measure given his legal status, there has been a statement by Square Enix that Kingdom Hearts 3 could appear on Switch alongside other games in the franchise, albeit not until the former's release on other consoles. His inclusion would be a potential game and console seller, and he's ridiculously popular. I've talked with a lot of casual gaming fans, and his name comes up a lot when discussing Smash, even being many of my friends' most wanted. That said, he is not a character I'm banking on. This is a longshot prediction from me. (Certainty Very Low)

*Steve: While not a character I support, per se, he's undeniably popular and iconic. If the Microsoft thing isn't too high a hurdle, then I could see him happening. (Certainty Low)

*I'm very, very hesitant to say who the next third party characters will be, and I expect to be wrong. My conservative guess on how many we'll see is two, but I could be wrong on that as well. Replace the two above with any combination of Rayman/Rabbids *shudders*, Shovel Knight, Shantae, Bomberman, Snake, and a Dragon Quest character.

Ice Climbers: I mean, the only reason they weren't in Sm4sh to begin with was the 3DS. (Certainty: Highest)

Wolf: Very popular, a veteran, and easy to bring back. (Certainty: High)

Lots of love, all.

You can also post it in the Switch Roster thread.

That said, I don't think Dixie has a big chance at this point. Her goal is to be a tag team character. I don't think that's going to change at all. I doubt Xenoblade will get two characters. It's getting bigger, but outside of a clone situation, I wouldn't count too much on it. Bandanna Dee probably won't happen just yet. He's getting bigger, but is still not the de facto major character just yet. Would be neat, though. As for BOTW designs, outside of new costumes, it's more likely they'll keep the designs consistent for the main Triforce trio. Toon Link is the outlier of this. I wouldn't count much on Alph being separated until more actual Pikmin creatures appear. At the moment, he makes more sense as an alt since the Captains are completely identical outside of their physical size at best. Heck, the Rock Pikmin aren't really easy to make different enough from Purple Pikmin to justify a new moveset. That's a lot of animation work. It might work better as an Alph only alt Pikmin in place of the Purple Pikmin. When more new Pikmin creatures come out, it's easier to justify a new moveset due to more unique gameplay options. Likewise, Alph would use the same Pikmin as Olimar anyway, so it wouldn't be a Dark Pit situation(who both had easy ideas to separate him but most notable it would be OOC for him to use the Three Sacred Treasures). I'm not against Alph being separated so much as don't think there's a good reason to it just yet. Sora would be great, but I doubt Disney would be easy enough to negotiate a decent deal with. Especially if Sakurai doesn't want to put content in from non-games like Mickey Mouse stuff(and considering what Kingdom Hearts is about...). Before anybody brings up the Pokemon Anime having actual content, also keep in mind Sakurai looked at the anime for content in the first place and that Pokemon isn't 3rd party, but technically 2nd party at this point. Also, the companies are super stingy with Pokemon content, so he can't just add only game stuff. They like to promote the anime too, which makes sense, as it's severely huge.

But was it THE Kamek, or just a generic Magikoopa? Generic Magikoopas are easily taken out by a single attack, but Kamek himself has proven to be more resilient than the other members of the Magikoopa species.

Of course, you do have to blame the region differences, since in Mario Party 9, the NTSC-U version uses the name Magikoopa, while the PAL version uses the name Kamek.

Generic Magikoopa. Kamek is just the Japanese name. The proper Kamek debuted in Super Mario World 2. It's a reverse of the Toad-naming situation. The Toad is from Super Mario Bros. 2(huh, coincidence, no?) while the species just shares the same name in the US. The Japanese names are the same, but the characters are named differently for the magic wielders VS the actual person under Baby Bowser himself.

That's pretty a pretty snarky insult for a moderator. But, my main issue is that you're projecting that criticism on to me rather than yourself.

I honestly don't know what snark you mean in this case. Nor was In insulting you anyway.

That said, most of this argument is silly. You're going off the premise that tons of people think series needs representation. This is not a common argument. Most are just asserting what they want to happen. It doesn't work as a general argument against them anyway as most are, again, just saying what they want to see. I want to see tons of stuff, but that doesn't make it realistic. Doesn't stop me from wanting it.

That said, clearly we talked over each other a lot. So to clarify, Series Representation does have relevance to character options. It's been used before. When a series already has characters, Sakurai quite often looks first for what characters in that series, often not because they're iconic. Sometimes he chooses characters on their own merits alone, while sometimes his search for a series representation gets him a character that has the right qualities. Yeah, it isn't black and white. Agreed. But it's clear it has legitimately played a role. In fact, when a series does extremely well, it's what gets Sakurai's attention. Wii Fit Trainer, for instance, wasn't just added because of the surprise factor or being an interesting gimmick, it was important that her series did well, since that's part of why he added her. If it didn't, it would've been less likely he added her. Note my wording too, as I'm not saying she couldn't have been in, but her chances wouldn't have been as high due to circumstances. Greninja is a pure case of looking for representation of Gen VI itself. He wanted a character from it. When he saw the concept art, he visualized a moveset super easily. Of course, the final version had tons of merits, but he didn't have any to speak of beyond a ninja design. Inspiration and franchise representation is clearly what got him in. That's the key factor. This isn't every case, and yeah, it seemed like I asserted it was. Circumstances for characters vary heavily. Series representation has clearly played a role before, so it's not something that can be outright ignored. The whole idea of "solely look at them at their own merits" is a neat concept, but it's not actually what always happens. The reality is, sometimes it's not a relevant point. Ganondorf wasn't even chosen cause he was a Zelda character, or had great merits. It's because his tech demo design was easy to make a clone out of. The fact it fit his character may have just been coincidental.

Basically, series representation does matter. Just not all the time. But enough that it's something to consider when it comes to actually increasing the roster size with an already represented series. Hopefully that makes sense.

 

[Bowserlick]

I think Smash WaWham should be made to hold us over.

WA "Wario" versions of the original 12 veterans.

Meaning Wario instead of Mario, Waluigi instead of Luigi and then WaFox, Wagglypuff, Wakichu, ****y Wang, ****, Wamus, Waptain Walcon!, WaNess, Warby, & Washi.

 

[Deleted member]

Generic Magikoopa. Kamek is just the Japanese name. The proper Kamek debuted in Super Mario World 2. It's a reverse of the Toad-naming situation. The Toad is from Super Mario Bros. 2(huh, coincidence, no?) while the species just shares the same name in the US. The Japanese names are the same, but the characters are named differently for the magic wielders VS the actual person under Baby Bowser himself.

It's not a reverse.
"Kinopio" refers to the species just like "Toad" does.
http://legendsoflocalization.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/kinopio-official.png

(Because the image won't work for whatever reason)

The one people refer to as "THE" Toad never had his own name.
Which raises the question on how people can be so certain that there even is a major recurring Toad simply known as "Toad". Especially since his supposed "debut" game was just a dream.

EDIT: There is a named Toad referred to as "Kinopio-Kun" in Japan now, but it's this green one who is the mascot for Nintendo LINE.

 

[Bowserlick]

Here is my ARMS moveset from last year

Spring Man
~moveset~​

Spring Man brings a long-ranged brawling strategy to Smash. Different arms can be selected at the character selection screen to customize your fighter. Spring Man's mechanic allows him to attack with his second ARM after certain moves by pressing "A" again. Charge his fists and pound your opponents into oblivion from a distance.

Mechanic {Follow-up Attack} Pressing "A" after tilts and most aerials, allows Spring Man to deliver a second punch.

At the character selection screen after picking Spring Man, you must select one of three arm weapons for each arm. The same weapon can be selected for the primary and secondary arm.

• Toaster Arm: Does the most damage uncharged or charged out of his three arms. Adds fire damage if charged for more damage.

• Boomerang Arm: Delivers a curved punch that does some damage (without hit-stun) during an opponent’s sidestep, roll, or air dodge. If charged the arm adds more knock-back to an attack.

• Tribolt Arm: The Tribolt arm is the fastest in delivering attacks out of the three arms. A charged attack adds a little hit-stun.

Spoiler

SPECIALS​

B {ARM CHARGE} Charges up both fists. Charge takes a third of the time as DK’s windup punch. A full charge gives elemental properties and additional damage to the next fist-attack if it connects.

Pressing B after a full charge: Throws out two curved punches simultaneously, which crash into each other at a set distance resulting in an elemental explosion.

Side B {Dash} Does a short grounded or aerial dash to the left or right. The dash is slower and goes a shorter distance if used in quick succession after a previous dash.

The initial startup creates a blue whirlwind around Spring Man, which deflects projectiles.


Down B {ARMS Throw} Pulls his arms behind his body, before launching homing hands at the closest enemy for a grab. The grab can be knocked away with a well-timed, medium-strength attack.

Once the enemy is grabbed, Spring Man pulls himself to their position. Then he slams them in the gut with one fist and uppercuts them with the other.

Up B {ARMS-copter} Shoots up vertically, spinning his arms around him. During each rotation, the arms extend a bit more and are at peak range at the top of the move. The last two swings with the fist have the most knock-back. Then Spring Man goes into free fall.

ATTACKS​

A: Flip kick

Side A: Extended, ranged Punch (Pressing “A” will add a follow-up punch with the secondary arm)

Down A: While squatting, sends out a shorter, lower punch than his tilt. But the force sends him sliding a little bit backwards. (Pressing “A” will add a follow-up punch with the secondary arm)

Up A: Spins an arm in an extending arc over his head (Pressing “A” will add a follow-up punch with the secondary arm)

Dash A: Launches his extended arms behind him and pushes off the floor allowing his to spring forward quite a distance for a long drop-kick.

All Smash attacks go further the longer they are charged.


Forward Smash: Clasps his fists together and swings in an arch, crashing his fists to the ground. If used on an edge, the fists will go off the stage and swing in an arc until they hit the side of the stage.

Down Smash: Looks at the screen with fierce determination and sends out a punch at each side. The move is strongest at the apex of each punches’ full distance.

Up Smash: Punches rapidly straight above with both fists, before finishing off the move with a hard uppercut from the secondary arm (if the secondary arm is charged, it will release its elemental damage on the last hit)

AERIALS​

Forward A: Sends a diagonal punch forward and down. (Pressing “A” will add a follow-up punch with the secondary arm)

Back A: A swinging backhand that goes behind him at an upward angle. (Pressing “A” will add a follow-up punch with the secondary arm)

Up A: Delivers an uppercut (Pressing “A” will add a follow-up punch with the secondary arm)

Down A: Punches straight down. One frame has a small meteor effect at the apex. If a charged fist connects the floor of the stage, an elemental ripple will result. (Pressing “A” will add a follow-up punch with the secondary arm)

Neutral A: Swings both arms around him in vertical circles at his side. First use of the move in the air stalls him a bit. Multi-weak hits.

Throws​

Spring Man lunges his arms out with the longest tether grab in the game. Brings the character over to him.

A: Knee

Forward throw: Yanks the opponent behind and above his body, before heaving him forward with a ranged toss

Back Throw: Whiplashes the enemy back and forth over his head, before tossing them backwards

Down Throw: Throws the enemy onto ground, leaps up high and machine gun punches downward with extended fists. Launches enemy to the side afterwards.

Up Throw: Extends arms high above his head, pushing the enemy into the air

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It's not a reverse.
"Kinopio" refers to the species just like "Toad" does.
http://legendsoflocalization.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/kinopio-official.png

(Because the image won't work for whatever reason)

The one people refer to as "THE" Toad never had his own name.
Which raises the question on how people can be so certain that there even is a major recurring Toad simply known as "Toad". Especially since his supposed "debut" game was just a dream.

EDIT: There is a named Toad referred to as "Kinopio-Kun" in Japan now, but it's this green one who is the mascot for Nintendo LINE.

...Won't lie, I read that wrong then.

That or Mario Wikia had it wrong for a long time(or still does?)?

Anyway, they already had the same Toad in Wario's Woods, so the whole dream thing isn't his only appearance anyway. Another notable point is that the enemies from it are mainstays in the expanded Mario Universe, so they are meant to exist, it's just probably just more of a case of Mario himself remembering specific characters/stuff from other games.

...It also doesn't help that Miyamoto has viewed the series as something akin to actors having roles to play in the games. The Mario "canon" is weird as hell.

 

[PF9]

For the 20th anniversary of the whole series next year, Nintendo should release a video compiling gameplay footage from all existing installments set to the Queen songs We Will Rock You/We Are the Champions ending with a title card saying "and we'll keep on fighting 'tll the end" (a lyric from We Are the Champions). The next Smash should be designed with sports fans in mind featuring popular rock songs at sporting events as part of the soundtrack (the aforementioned Queen songs being examples).

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

For the 20th anniversary of the whole series next year, Nintendo should release a video compiling gameplay footage from all existing installments set to the Queen songs We Will Rock You/We Are the Champions ending with a title card saying "and we'll keep on fighting 'tll the end" (a lyric from We Are the Champions). The next Smash should be designed with sports fans in mind featuring popular rock songs at sporting events as part of the soundtrack (the aforementioned Queen songs being examples).

It's a cool idea in theory, but all the licensing costs it'd take for those games would either mean they'd need to tone down on every other aspect of development to make it less of a financial risk or do their usual thing on top of the licensed songs and sell us a game that's more expensive than any other Switch game, which would draw a lot of casuals, the main audience of Smash, away from it.

Either way, it'll probably flop.

 

[HypnoMaster372]

I would like to point out the possibility that Sakurai might very well not be the directer of the next Smash Bros. game & that we should not prematurely assume he will come back to direct. Just because Sakurai did such & such his way =/= the way Smash should always be directed. Sakurai might care about a limit for each series representation but the next directer could care jack**** about that & add characters based entirely on their own merits (without hopefully not going overboard). What I'm basically saying can we all just ease-up & just speculate.

Daitoryo: I do not believe that I'm crazy in seeing a pattern of retro and historical characters. Each game since Melee has included one "retro" character (Ice Climbers, Pit, Little Mac) and one "history" character (Mr. Game and Watch, R.O.B., Duck Hunt). If this pattern continues, I believe the most reasonable addition would be the stylized depiction of Napoleon from the "President" style Hanafuda cards that Nintendo has produced since its inception. That said, I did not see Duck Hunt as a potential historical character at first despite the game's origins as an early arcade game, so I fully admit that I could be wrong. (Certainty Low)

Man can't believe that another person thought about incorporating a Hanafuda-based character aswell! Beside for that love the choices. I could definitely see all of them being reasonably incorporated!

That is all for now - Ciao!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I would like to point out the possibility that Sakurai might very well not be the directer of the next Smash Bros. game & that we should not prematurely assume he will come back to direct. Just because Sakurai did such & such his way =/= the way Smash should always be directed. Sakurai might care about a limit for each series representation but the next directer could care jack**** about that & add characters based entirely on their own merits (without hopefully not going overboard). What I'm basically saying can we all just ease-up & just speculate.

You'd be surprised how many forget that Sakurai isn't the owner of the series and just think of him as the main director for all time. Good reminder, yes.

Also, please don't try to edit your swear words so they avoid the censors.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

First take a look at this setup. This just looks odd since Yoshi was thrown simply close to the Mario series, but not on the same line either.

I'd just like to quickly point out that Smash 64's screen select lineup was based on chronological debut and not series. The only exception to this was the unlockable characters who were placed in chronological order among themselves. Basically, what I'm saying is the placement of characters such as Yoshi in Smash 64 has nothing to do with their series, it's a coincidence he even ended up close to the mario characters.
Proof: (3:05)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'd just like to quickly point out that Smash 64's screen select lineup was based on chronological debut and not series. The only exception to this was the unlockable characters who were placed in chronological order among themselves. Basically, what I'm saying is the placement of characters such as Yoshi in Smash 64 has nothing to do with their series, it's a coincidence he even ended up close to the mario characters.
Proof: (3:05)

My mere point was that he doesn't have a consistent spot in the roster. He's not always even after the Mario characters even when the series are more noted. It's just wherever he fits. The fact he's right after Bowser in some rosters, yet after Diddy in Brawl's, shows how they don't adhere to a key rule in the Mario/Yoshi/Wario/DK roster designs. Why, who knows. But to be fair, Smash 4's roster looked all over the place, not that it didn't have a clear goal in mind, but that didn't stop the complaints.

 

[Pakky]

Here is my ARMS moveset from last year

Spring Man
~moveset~​

Spring Man brings a long-ranged brawling strategy to Smash. Different arms can be selected at the character selection screen to customize your fighter. Spring Man's mechanic allows him to attack with his second ARM after certain moves by pressing "A" again. Charge his fists and pound your opponents into oblivion from a distance.

Mechanic {Follow-up Attack} Pressing "A" after tilts and most aerials, allows Spring Man to deliver a second punch.

At the character selection screen after picking Spring Man, you must select one of three arm weapons for each arm. The same weapon can be selected for the primary and secondary arm.

• Toaster Arm: Does the most damage uncharged or charged out of his three arms. Adds fire damage if charged for more damage.

• Boomerang Arm: Delivers a curved punch that does some damage (without hit-stun) during an opponent’s sidestep, roll, or air dodge. If charged the arm adds more knock-back to an attack.

• Tribolt Arm: The Tribolt arm is the fastest in delivering attacks out of the three arms. A charged attack adds a little hit-stun.

Spoiler

SPECIALS​

B {ARM CHARGE} Charges up both fists. Charge takes a third of the time as DK’s windup punch. A full charge gives elemental properties and additional damage to the next fist-attack if it connects.

Pressing B after a full charge: Throws out two curved punches simultaneously, which crash into each other at a set distance resulting in an elemental explosion.

Side B {Dash} Does a short grounded or aerial dash to the left or right. The dash is slower and goes a shorter distance if used in quick succession after a previous dash.

The initial startup creates a blue whirlwind around Spring Man, which deflects projectiles.


Down B {ARMS Throw} Pulls his arms behind his body, before launching homing hands at the closest enemy for a grab. The grab can be knocked away with a well-timed, medium-strength attack.

Once the enemy is grabbed, Spring Man pulls himself to their position. Then he slams them in the gut with one fist and uppercuts them with the other.

Up B {ARMS-copter} Shoots up vertically, spinning his arms around him. During each rotation, the arms extend a bit more and are at peak range at the top of the move. The last two swings with the fist have the most knock-back. Then Spring Man goes into free fall.

ATTACKS​

A: Flip kick

Side A: Extended, ranged Punch (Pressing “A” will add a follow-up punch with the secondary arm)

Down A: While squatting, sends out a shorter, lower punch than his tilt. But the force sends him sliding a little bit backwards. (Pressing “A” will add a follow-up punch with the secondary arm)

Up A: Spins an arm in an extending arc over his head (Pressing “A” will add a follow-up punch with the secondary arm)

Dash A: Launches his extended arms behind him and pushes off the floor allowing his to spring forward quite a distance for a long drop-kick.

All Smash attacks go further the longer they are charged.


Forward Smash: Clasps his fists together and swings in an arch, crashing his fists to the ground. If used on an edge, the fists will go off the stage and swing in an arc until they hit the side of the stage.

Down Smash: Looks at the screen with fierce determination and sends out a punch at each side. The move is strongest at the apex of each punches’ full distance.

Up Smash: Punches rapidly straight above with both fists, before finishing off the move with a hard uppercut from the secondary arm (if the secondary arm is charged, it will release its elemental damage on the last hit)

AERIALS​

Forward A: Sends a diagonal punch forward and down. (Pressing “A” will add a follow-up punch with the secondary arm)

Back A: A swinging backhand that goes behind him at an upward angle. (Pressing “A” will add a follow-up punch with the secondary arm)

Up A: Delivers an uppercut (Pressing “A” will add a follow-up punch with the secondary arm)

Down A: Punches straight down. One frame has a small meteor effect at the apex. If a charged fist connects the floor of the stage, an elemental ripple will result. (Pressing “A” will add a follow-up punch with the secondary arm)

Neutral A: Swings both arms around him in vertical circles at his side. First use of the move in the air stalls him a bit. Multi-weak hits.

Throws​

Spring Man lunges his arms out with the longest tether grab in the game. Brings the character over to him.

A: Knee

Forward throw: Yanks the opponent behind and above his body, before heaving him forward with a ranged toss

Back Throw: Whiplashes the enemy back and forth over his head, before tossing them backwards

Down Throw: Throws the enemy onto ground, leaps up high and machine gun punches downward with extended fists. Launches enemy to the side afterwards.

Up Throw: Extends arms high above his head, pushing the enemy into the air

Love it but unless I missed it your missing his abilties.

"One of Spring Man's abilities allows him to parry incoming attacks, giving him added time to counter and punish. It is performed by holding the dash or jump button and releasing at any time before max charge. If holding jump, the player has to wait until Spring Man touches the floor to be able to activate the ability. The parry is mainly used to bait and counter punches, cover wake-up options and defend against aggressive opponents. When Spring Man reaches 25% (250 HP) or lower damage, he glows red, and his ARMS stay permanently charged."

https://armswiki.org/wiki/Spring_Man

So basically what Lucario has on top of something akin to Mewtwo's reflect upon charge button release.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Love it but unless I missed it your missing his abilties.

"One of Spring Man's abilities allows him to parry incoming attacks, giving him added time to counter and punish. It is performed by holding the dash or jump button and releasing at any time before max charge. If holding jump, the player has to wait until Spring Man touches the floor to be able to activate the ability. The parry is mainly used to bait and counter punches, cover wake-up options and defend against aggressive opponents. When Spring Man reaches 25% (250 HP) or lower damage, he glows red, and his ARMS stay permanently charged."

https://armswiki.org/wiki/Spring_Man

So basically what Lucario has on top of something akin to Mewtwo's reflect upon charge button release.

First of all, it wouldn't be a reflect, but a parry. Think of something like Ryu's uncharged Focus Attack.

Second, it's not quite Lucario's Aura and wouldn't really work the same way in a game where there's no HP, so to speak... (unless you play Stamina Mode, but who plays Stamina mode?)

 

[Pakky]

First of all, it wouldn't be a reflect, but a parry. Think of something like Ryu's uncharged Focus Attack.

Second, it's not quite Lucario's Aura and wouldn't really work the same way in a game where there's no HP, so to speak... (unless you play Stamina Mode, but who plays Stamina mode?)

You're correct on the parry.

Wouldn't percent equate to HP?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You're correct on the parry.

Wouldn't percent equate to HP?

Percent can depending upon how you make a mechanic work. But it only affects knockback an how often you can hold someone at this point. It's not really the same thing.

I forget if Stamina Mode has a proper percentage or if all knockback is preset to be the same bar natural character buffs?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I just thought of something stupid. Dragon Ball fans can finally get a Dragon Ball character in Smash without breaking the "must debut in a video game" rule.

 

[Deleted member]

Smash for Switch better buff Falco, please.
I understand they nerfed him, but buff his overall speed and his down air please.
He is actually fun to play in Smash 4, because he is more of a "bad but casual / fun" type of character rather than a "competitive" character like in Melee and Brawl.

 

[WiFi]

In Super Smash Flash 2, there is a soccer minigame which is pretty fun to play. I'd actually like to see this implemented in Smash for Switch, but it's highly unlikely, though it is fun to imagine an eight player 4-4 soccer match in Smash.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

In Super Smash Flash 2, there is a soccer minigame which is pretty fun to play. I'd actually like to see this implemented in Smash for Switch, but it's highly unlikely, though it is fun to imagine an eight player 4-4 soccer match in Smash.

But can it handle Ice Climbers?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I just thought of something stupid. Dragon Ball fans can finally get a Dragon Ball character in Smash without breaking the "must debut in a video game" rule.

I unironically support this.

The main problem with transformations is that they force players to have to adapt to more than one playstyle. This is especially true for the Pokemon Trainer, since his three Pokemon are hindered by a stamina system that weakens the knockback of their attacks.

Final Smash transformations are only temporary, and you won't see them at all if the Smash Ball is disabled.

Dude, we get it, you love Giga Bowser a bit too much to the point you bring up irrelevant ****. Giga Bowser is still Bowser and shares multiple animations and stuff, which mean he likely doesn't eat up that much data in comparison to a completely different character with different attacks, animations, etc.

Also I saw y'all talking about Snake debating whether or not he's wrth putting back in. Did you guys just... FORGET that Snake was the first third party character the franchise has seen?

 

[Staarih]

You’d think that after the success of the Switch so far, any third party companies (Konami included) would be eager to co-operate, Smash especially works amazingly for promotion. Super Bomberman R is doing exceptionally well, it climbed the charts yet again during Christmas, so Konami ought to be happy. While I don’t know how things actually go down when it comes to guest appearances in Smash, and if Snake/MGS is a possibility anymore, if they really wanted something to happen, negotiations shouldn’t be hard to arrange.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Also I saw y'all talking about Snake debating whether or not he's wrth putting back in. Did you guys just... FORGET that Snake was the first third party character the franchise has seen?

No, it just doesn't matter.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

No, it just doesn't matter.

Kinda does when people still go "CLOUD TRULY OPENED THE GATES TO THIRD PARTIES!" when Snake was the first one we've ever gotten and would have been the only third party character if SEGA didn't suddenly change their mind on keeping Sonic out