Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Rosalinatehplumber]

That was like eeeeeeeaaaarly Pre-Brawl Speculation. I'm talking like 2004-2005. Maybe even earlier.

Apparently, people were upset Mewtwo was as awful as he was in Melee and either wanted him cut, or completely reworked, mostly reworked. Kind of blew up in everyone else's face. Thanks guys! I don't think it was a petition so much just an echo chamber of the then Smash fanbase that was relatively small compared to today. At least in terms of forum traffic.

I see. But that was the time Brawl's roster was being finalized on July 7 2005. Then again, Mewtwo's relevancy during that time probably didn't help either. Also, in Brawl some data for Wario and Mewtwo were switched (ex. nametags).

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

The Arms characters, especially Spring Man, have pretty boring movesets. I think the more interesting characters from Arms are the less iconic ones, and therefore less likely to get in the game. There's the possibility that a generic Arms character would be created with costumes for the different characters, but I don't think that's likely, because you'd have both Arms fans complaining and people buying Arms because of 5mash complaining that said generic moveset isn't in Arms.

 

[Staarih]

I’d personally love it if the idea of Pokemon Trainer was revisited in a future Smash game, he was one of my favourite Brawl newcomers. I’m on the boat of him being cut mainly because of technical limitations (3DS) rather than balancing/gimmick issues (though that might’ve been a reasoning for it later). Charizard is fine on its own, sure, but it’s a shame such a unique concept would be forgotten about. Fix some things here and there and PT should be good to go.

Human characters from Pokemon in general are an interesting idea. Lillie & Nebby for Smash, anyone?
...they never actually battle together tho but the popularity is there haha!

The Arms characters, especially Spring Man, have pretty boring movesets.

Yeah, the gameplay of ARMS is pretty simple in general (however the more I’ve played recently the more depth I seem to find). While each character has some specific traits, I feel like a pretty generic moveset for Spring Man or whoever they choose to go with works well, maybe utilize different arms for different approaches. Not every Smash character needs to have a special gimmick to be good, enjoyable or fun to use.

 

[Lukingordex]

Nintendo Labo already had a character representation before, all they need to do is add him back

 

[NintenRob]

Is there any actual evidence that the 3DS was the reason for the transformations being removed. I mean we still have multiple transformations via Final Smash. Giga Bowser even has his Brawl moveset and hunched build

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Is there any actual evidence that the 3DS was the reason for the transformations being removed. I mean we still have multiple transformations via Final Smash. Giga Bowser even has his Brawl moveset and hunched build

The main problem with transformations is that they force players to have to adapt to more than one playstyle. This is especially true for the Pokemon Trainer, since his three Pokemon are hindered by a stamina system that weakens the knockback of their attacks.

Final Smash transformations are only temporary, and you won't see them at all if the Smash Ball is disabled.

 

[Cosmic77]

The only "guaranteed" characters that I would feel safe placing a bet on is Inkling and a Gen VIII Pokemon. Saying anyone else besides those two is a 100% shoe-in is an gross exaggeration.

You are aware there'd be 8 if we added 2 more, right? It's getting a bit bloated. 7 just includes one newcomer and Mewtwo staying. Keep in mind Smash 4 got a single Pokemon newcomer. It's getting to the point where one newcomer is becoming realistic for multiple series to avoid having a huge roster. It was not a big deal up to Brawl, where there was quite a lot of space, but balancing over 50 characters is extremely difficult, even with a few clones(and I only mean the clone trio of Smash 4 in this case, not the ones who play extremely differently despite their clones origins like Ganondorf).

Even if there are more franchises competing to get a character on the roster, the number of Pokemon reps shouldn't be an issue. Not only does every new game usually sell over 10 million copies, but there are hundreds of options to choose from. Heck, they could add three new Pokemon characters in the next Smash, and I really wouldn't have a leg to stand on if I thought it was too many. If the franchise does well and everyone knows who the new characters are, how can I complain and say it's unfair?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Even if there are more franchises competing to get a character on the roster, the number of Pokemon reps shouldn't be an issue. Not only does every new game usually sell over 10 million copies, but there are hundreds of options to choose from. Heck, they could add three new Pokemon characters in the next Smash, and I really wouldn't have a leg to stand on if I thought it was too many. If the franchise does well and everyone knows who the new characters are, how can I complain and say it's unfair?

Let's not forget that the whole Mario universe has as many as 11 fighters in Smash 3DS / Wii U, with four of them representing their own franchises.

 

[Arcadenik]

The Arms characters, especially Spring Man, have pretty boring movesets. I think the more interesting characters from Arms are the less iconic ones, and therefore less likely to get in the game. There's the possibility that a generic Arms character would be created with costumes for the different characters, but I don't think that's likely, because you'd have both Arms fans complaining and people buying Arms because of 5mash complaining that said generic moveset isn't in Arms.

Spring Man? Boring, maybe. But unique, definitely.

People said the same thing about Little Mac.

Spring Man would be very unique when compared to other Smash characters.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Let's not forget that the whole Mario universe has as many as 11 fighters in Smash 3DS / Wii U, with four of them representing their own franchises.

Except not really. There's a total of 7 Mario Universe characters. Those are all separate universes, although the fact they're remotely related may be partially why we don't see many of the other universe characters.

The only "guaranteed" characters that I would feel safe placing a bet on is Inkling and a Gen VIII Pokemon. Saying anyone else besides those two is a 100% shoe-in is an gross exaggeration.

Gen VIII doesn't even exist, so that's a gross exaggeration too. Spring Man is way more guaranteed in comparison because he not only exists, but is an extremely successful IP.

Even if there are more franchises competing to get a character on the roster, the number of Pokemon reps shouldn't be an issue. Not only does every new game usually sell over 10 million copies, but there are hundreds of options to choose from. Heck, they could add three new Pokemon characters in the next Smash, and I really wouldn't have a leg to stand on if I thought it was too many. If the franchise does well and everyone knows who the new characters are, how can I complain and say it's unfair?

Nope, would be way too many. Smash isn't like other fighting games. It has a director who cares about series representation. It's absolutely unfair to go that far. 8 Pokemon is huge, and a pretty reasonable cut off point. Adding more than one newcomer per game just creates a balancing nightmare. No other series has remotely hit more than 7 at any point in time, and alternate costumes do not count. The only thing that counts is exact symbols for the purpose of how the game is designed. And even if you count Yoshi(who admittedly is being treated the same as a Mario universe character in the roster design), that's still a max of 8. Keep in mind Mario was meant to have 6, not 7, anyway. Sakurai even noted how he thought giving Fire Emblem a 6th character might've been too much, which is why he was hesitant on Corrin. Uniqueness and timing(as it was now or never) won that round, due to his team convincing him.

There's seriously no reason to give any single series 10 characters alone when it's not just uncalled for, but it vastly undermines other series that really do need a bit more at this point. Mario and Pokemon have been fairly close in amount of characters, with no more than 2 per difference. They're the biggest franchises. Just because Pokemon have quite a few candidates doesn't mean they should overdo it on the franchise either. 8 is pretty huge for any single series as is, after all. And again, I must note balancing and you can't have that huge of a roster without making it too much as is. It's not just a nightmare to balance, but it's also a pain in the ass to go through Classic/etc. with everyone(and that's not just because Classic has gotten really boring since Brawl, with few unique mini-games at all) as is, as it's tedious. There's a thing called "too much". Making a series balance(which Sakurai has touched upon, and actually a fairly big reason why many believe he isn't going to add more than one 3rd party per franchise proper, due to them being extremely special additions) is very important in building a roster. You just can't add add add. It's way more complicated than that. I wouldn't expect must beyond 70 for a new game at this point, and that's stretching it. That's assuming no cuts too. Smash 4 even had some characters missing people expected. Add the cuts from Brawl, and it becomes even more severely huge. That includes 2 more Pokemon(for a grand total of 8), Wolf, Ice Climbers(who weren't possible with the 3DS, and may not have been possible with the Wii U either), Snake(who admittedly had a lot going against him due to the Konami/Kojima fallout, which was pretty bad timing for development to license him, and that's not counting any other possible factors. As pointed out, Sonic didn't just get back in, Nintendo had to make a deal to get 3 exclusive games before they would play ball, as silly as it was to do so. But it's not like Sakurai had that much control).

 

[Cosmic77]

Except not really. There's a total of 7 Mario Universe characters. Those are all separate universes, although the fact they're remotely related may be partially why we don't see many of the other universe characters.


Gen VIII doesn't even exist, so that's a gross exaggeration too. Spring Man is way more guaranteed in comparison because he not only exists, but is an extremely successful IP.


Nope, would be way too many. Smash isn't like other fighting games. It has a director who cares about series representation. It's absolutely unfair to go that far. 8 Pokemon is huge, and a pretty reasonable cut off point. Adding more than one newcomer per game just creates a balancing nightmare. No other series has remotely hit more than 7 at any point in time, and alternate costumes do not count. The only thing that counts is exact symbols for the purpose of how the game is designed. And even if you count Yoshi(who admittedly is being treated the same as a Mario universe character in the roster design), that's still a max of 8. Keep in mind Mario was meant to have 6, not 7, anyway. Sakurai even noted how he thought giving Fire Emblem a 6th character might've been too much, which is why he was hesitant on Corrin. Uniqueness and timing(as it was now or never) won that round, due to his team convincing him.

There's seriously no reason to give any single series 10 characters alone when it's not just uncalled for, but it vastly undermines other series that really do need a bit more at this point. Mario and Pokemon have been fairly close in amount of characters, with no more than 2 per difference. They're the biggest franchises. Just because Pokemon have quite a few candidates doesn't mean they should overdo it on the franchise either. 8 is pretty huge for any single series as is, after all. And again, I must note balancing and you can't have that huge of a roster without making it too much as is. It's not just a nightmare to balance, but it's also a pain in the *** to go through Classic/etc. with everyone(and that's not just because Classic has gotten really boring since Brawl, with few unique mini-games at all) as is, as it's tedious. There's a thing called "too much". Making a series balance(which Sakurai has touched upon, and actually a fairly big reason why many believe he isn't going to add more than one 3rd party per franchise proper, due to them being extremely special additions) is very important in building a roster. You just can't add add add. It's way more complicated than that. I wouldn't expect must beyond 70 for a new game at this point, and that's stretching it. That's assuming no cuts too. Smash 4 even had some characters missing people expected. Add the cuts from Brawl, and it becomes even more severely huge. That includes 2 more Pokemon(for a grand total of 8), Wolf, Ice Climbers(who weren't possible with the 3DS, and may not have been possible with the Wii U either), Snake(who admittedly had a lot going against him due to the Konami/Kojima fallout, which was pretty bad timing for development to license him, and that's not counting any other possible factors. As pointed out, Sonic didn't just get back in, Nintendo had to make a deal to get 3 exclusive games before they would play ball, as silly as it was to do so. But it's not like Sakurai had that much control).

Yoshi and Wario are still Mario characters. Just because Smash represents them by their spin-off franchises doesn't mean they're any less of a Mario character.

As the series continues, the roster is going to grow. Since we've gotten to the point where transferring data across consoles can work, sooner or later a franchise is going to break the seven character limit... And then the eight character limit... And then the nine character limit. The characters from more niche series like Punch Out and Xenoblade just can't compete with the iconic cast of Mario and Pokemon. It's not fair to say, "Hold on a sec! Mario and Pokemon have seven characters! We'll have to limit how many characters we add so the other franchises can catch up!" I can't see Sakurai going out of his way to avoid obvious additions from AAA titles just because their franchises are getting a little heavy in numbers.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Gen VIII doesn't even exist, so that's a gross exaggeration too. Spring Man is way more guaranteed in comparison because he not only exists, but is an extremely successful IP.

I wouldn't say "extremely", but yeah, it's a new IP that works

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Except not really. There's a total of 7 Mario Universe characters. Those are all separate universes, although the fact they're remotely related may be partially why we don't see many of the other universe characters.

Still, it's important to remember that even though Yoshi, Wario, and Donkey Kong represent their own franchises in the Super Smash Bros. series, they're still part of the Mario universe as a whole; this is further evidenced by their Mario Kart trophies in Smash 3DS / Wii U. Of course, Yoshi has the strongest ties to the Super Mario franchise, since he faces the same set of enemies as Mario, and the two even share the same major antagonist.

And before I forget, Kamek and Poochy used to be Yoshi's Island exclusives, but now, the former also appears in certain Super Mario titles (such as New Super Mario Bros. Wii), while the latter made his Super Mario series debut in Super Mario Odyssey.

 

[Rosalinatehplumber]

Yoshi definitely feels like a Mario character at this point. Heck, he comes after Bowser but before Rosalina on the roster. Even in Brawl when selecting some stickers (Ex.Dr. Mario) Yoshi is paired up with the 4 main Mario characters. Wario can go either way, but he hasn't had his own game in a while and mainly appearing in Mario spinoffs. His last own game was Game & Wario (a spin off). Which might be the reason why he was bumped to a secret character. Plus, he comes after Bowser Jr, but before DK.

 

[Bowserlick]

Shulk is a well designed 'transformation' character. His down B toggles through a variety of Shulk clones with different stats.

A character with a down B that toggles between two sets of specials moves is worth exploring.

Also, modes like Wario's bike allow a character to have a different set of movement at their disposal.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Spring Man? Boring, maybe. But unique, definitely.

People said the same thing about Little Mac.

He's boring too, and he shouldn't have gotten in.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

He's boring too, and he shouldn't have gotten in.

I actually think he's one of the most interesting characters due to his gameplay style. Not saying I like playing as him (because I don't), just that the idea behind him is interesting.

He's also the first character announcement since the initial reveal that got me hyped up for the game (even though, again, I didn't like playing as him).

 

[Bowserlick]

I was adamant against Little Mac's inclusion. I thought he would be boring and offer little in gameplay.

I was wrong. Sakurai's angle on representing the boxer was creative and generated a new playstyle reliant on being grounded. Little Mac is one of my favorite opponents to go against in Smash. The battle could turn so quickly in either's favor because of the extreme pro's and con's of Little Mac.

 

[Deleted member]

Human characters from Pokemon in general are an interesting idea. Lillie & Nebby for Smash, anyone?
...they never actually battle together tho but the popularity is there haha!

Better idea.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Better idea.

Nice broken pic, dude

 

[Deleted member]

Nice broken pic, dude

Shaddup.

 

[Bowserlick]

IDEA: Pokemon trainer infested by a bug pokemon. The trainer has white eyes like Paras and shuffles around like something is moving the limbs by pressing from the inside. The trainer is powerful, but after a certain percentage of damage, the bug pokemon bursts out of its now useless flesh shell to attack on its own.

 

[Freduardo]

Still, it's important to remember that even though Yoshi, Wario, and Donkey Kong represent their own franchises in the Super Smash Bros. series, they're still part of the Mario universe as a whole; this is further evidenced by their Mario Kart trophies in Smash 3DS / Wii U. Of course, Yoshi has the strongest ties to the Super Mario franchise, since he faces the same set of enemies as Mario, and the two even share the same major antagonist.

And before I forget, Kamek and Poochy used to be Yoshi's Island exclusives, but now, the former also appears in certain Super Mario titles (such as New Super Mario Bros. Wii), while the latter made his Super Mario series debut in Super Mario Odyssey.

Kamek was in super Mario world before he was in super Mario world 2.

 

[Awesomeperson159]

IDEA: Pokemon trainer infested by a bug pokemon. The trainer has white eyes like Paras and shuffles around like something is moving the limbs by pressing from the inside. The trainer is powerful, but after a certain percentage of damage, the bug pokemon bursts out of its now useless flesh shell to attack on its own.

That would be horrifying, and unrelated to Pokémon in every way. Also, keep in mind that Smash bros is

and that's enough to make the game completely inappropriate for children, even without the blood and guts there would realistically be when the bug Pokémon burst out. It would be cool if Smash was T or M, but that's a little... extreme...

im spooked

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

That would be horrifying, and unrelated to Pokémon in every way. Also, keep in mind that Smash bros is

and that's enough to make the game completely inappropriate for children, even without the blood and guts there would realistically be when the bug Pokémon burst out. It would be cool if Smash was T or M, but that's a little... extreme...

im spooked

Um... Melee and Brawl were both rated T, y'know.

 

[Cosmic77]

Um... Melee and Brawl were both rated T, y'know.

And that makes absolutely no sense considering how neither of them featured a smexy witch lady who fights with demons and magical guns. The DLC was rated, right?

 

[Awesomeperson159]

Um... Melee and Brawl were both rated T, y'know.

I know, but really? They were still at least slightly marketed to children. I don't think there's any chance whatsoever that Nintendo would add a trainer that would have a Pokémon burst out of its chest, leaving the mangled corpse of a gaming icon on the ground.

Also, (at the time) Melee and Brawl looked (and tried to look) at least slightly realistic, while Sm4sh was more vivid and colourful. The latter is probably the aesthetic we'll see for smash 5 aswell.

 

[Bowserlick]

That would be horrifying, and unrelated to Pokémon in every way. Also, keep in mind that Smash bros is

and that's enough to make the game completely inappropriate for children, even without the blood and guts there would realistically be when the bug Pokémon burst out. It would be cool if Smash was T or M, but that's a little... extreme...

im spooked

Body in body and body-from-mouth expulsion has been done before. Kirby and King DeDeDe.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

And that makes absolutely no sense considering how neither of them featured a smexy witch lady who fights with demons and magical guns. The DLC was rated, right?

Brawl has Snake's ass.

I know, but really? They were still at least slightly marketed to children. I don't think there's any chance whatsoever that Nintendo would add a trainer that would have a Pokémon burst out of its chest, leaving the mangled corpse of a gaming icon on the ground.

Also, (at the time) Melee and Brawl looked (and tried to look) at least slightly realistic, while Sm4sh was more vivid and colourful. The latter is probably the aesthetic we'll see for smash 5 aswell.

Yeah... Gotta agree that the Pokemon idea is pretty horrifying and unfitting.

 

[Awesomeperson159]

Body in body and body-from-mouth expulsion has been done before. Kirby and King DeDeDe.

Kirby doesn't leave mangled corpses on the ground




Oh wait

 

[Bowserlick]

I am mostly joking about my idea.

A bug pokemon would be neat. Grass and Bug are my favorite types.

 

[Pakky]

Bug /Water Pokemon starter please, the two in gen 7 are so dank competitively

Bug/Anything is pretty solid though.

Unrelated note: Does anyone want King Hippo?

 

[Opossum]

He's boring too, and he shouldn't have gotten in.

Couldn't disagree more. He was by far the most hypeworthy newcomer in Smash 4 for me, followed by Pac-Man.

 

[Pakky]

The Arms characters, especially Spring Man, have pretty boring movesets.

I don't think you've played ARMS

Each character has a special ability marry that with the abilities of all the gloves and you got some really interesting characters.

Springman has two abilities technically so he and a few others are special among the cast.

 

[Lukingordex]

Kirby doesn't leave mangled corpses on the ground
Oh wait

Yoshi chews his victims alive, inhales them and makes them pass through his... erm you know what. I think that may be kinda scary for a kid's perspective, but that's just me.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

The Arms characters, especially Spring Man, have pretty boring movesets.

In all fairness, ARMS's gameplay is much, much simpler than Smash's. The ARMS characters only have 6 options; move, jump, punch, grab, guard or their ability.

No, I'm not counting the Rush because you need a gauge for that. I'm talking about options that are always available to you.

In the context of Smash, they would definitely get way more moves and animations to create a full moveset. Not to mention the option of a long-ranged brawler is something we don't really have in Smash, so if executed well, it would make for a really fun and unique moveset.

In other words, you took some apples and didn't think they'd be interesting enough to be inside a box of oranges.

 

[Cosmic77]

In all fairness, ARMS's gameplay is much, much simpler than Smash's. The ARMS characters only have 6 options; move, jump, punch, grab, guard or their ability.

No, I'm not counting the Rush because you need a gauge for that. I'm talking about options that are always available to you.

In the context of Smash, they would definitely get way more moves and animations to create a full moveset. Not to mention the option of a long-ranged brawler is something we don't really have in Smash, so if executed well, it would make for a really fun and unique moveset.

In other words, you took some apples and didn't think they'd be interesting enough to be inside a box of oranges.

Not sure if I've said this before, but ARMS being repped by a Spring Man Assist Trophy is probably the worst-case scenario we'd get for Smash 5. Whether or not its impact was enough for it to deserve a character on the roster is debatable, but ARMS is one of the first games revealed for the Switch. It sold over a million copies and did fairly well all things considered.

If we miss out on an ARMS character, I'd like to think there would at least be a stage, assist trophy, possible item, and a handful of trophies to do the game justice.

 

[Deleted member]

I just want to be able to make ACTUAL characters, unlike Miis.
Also, I'd like to have Pokemon Trainer and the Climbers back while entering Tifa Lockhart or Rayman.

 

[NintenRob]

The main problem with transformations is that they force players to have to adapt to more than one playstyle. This is especially true for the Pokemon Trainer, since his three Pokemon are hindered by a stamina system that weakens the knockback of their attacks.

Final Smash transformations are only temporary, and you won't see them at all if the Smash Ball is disabled.

Did you quote the wrong person, because I was talking about if there's evidence that 3DS removed them. Not how balanced they are.

 

[Deleted member]

The main issue I see with the idea of an ARMS character is that they're obviously going to be trading power for range.

They could hit from afar, but those hits aren't going to be particularly strong because that would be imbalanced if they were.