Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Swamp Sensei]

Because the games are bad you see

I think they're overrated but goodness, they're great games.

 

[Cosmic77]

At this point there are only a few true megaton announcements left for Smash. Ridley would be the biggest wildcard, but K. Rool also seems like a noteworthy pick.

"The Big 3" (Mewtwo, Ridley, and K. Rool) got the most support out of any Nintendo characters during Smash 4's development. When Mewtwo was revealed, people went so crazy that reaction videos to his reveal made it to the trending page on YouTube. Ridley caused so many debates and flame wars that there wasn't a single person who didn't know his name (or Bigley's). K. Rool didn't get SUPER popular until the DLC, but man, people were pretty determined to get him in. Anyone remember the hundreds of K. Rool pictures people spammed on that final Smash Bros. photo contest they held on Miiverse?

Makes me wonder who the next " The Big 3" will be for the next game. Will Ridley and K. Rool still be a part of it, or will some other surprise candidates pop up and steal the spotlight?

Eh, I like the characters. It doesn't make them iconic characters just cause people like them. They're actually pretty niche overall as 3rd parties.

They're nostalgic, but they haven't really made an impact like the other third-parties (save for maybe Bayonetta). Getting replaced by their chameleon and bat doppelgangers didn't do much to help their case either.

 

[Spud125]

3 bigs huh? why not Metalface?

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

He's a legacy character in that regard. The very first one. That can hold a special place in many people's heart. I feel Snake does deserve to get for multiple reasons and that's just one of them

I find it very hard to believe that anyone cares that much that Snake was the first third party character. Being the first of some category doesn't seem important to me. I've never heard anyone say the first second party character holds a special place in their heart for being such. It sounds absurd. Every character is the first in some regard, but that's not a good reason not to cut them.

If there is something more you're trying to say, please explain it. Why would being the first third party make people care so much?

I don't care about anymore third party reps. I personally rather not see anymore of them in. Think of the magic it'd bring back to Smash. I don't know. I think I'm sick of them.

Mega Man, Sonic and Ryu are the core definitions. Bayo is basically a Nintendo character. Cloud is PlayStation Allstars.

God, please give me a purely Nintendo Smash again.

What's so special about having only Nintendo characters (plus your arbitrary exceptions, of course)? It's not as if they all exist in a shared canon fictional universe. The only connection they have is their publisher, and I really don't care much about the business of video games when I'm picking a character.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I find it very hard to believe that anyone cares that much that Snake was the first third party character. Being the first of some category doesn't seem important to me. I've never heard anyone say the first second party character holds a special place in their heart for being such. It sounds absurd. Every character is the first in some regard, but that's not a good reason not to cut them.

If there is something more you're trying to say, please explain it. Why would being the first third party make people care so much?

Again, it's not the only argument I have for why Snake should be back nor is it the biggest. When Brawl's first trailer came up, people saw Snake. I wasn't around during that time, but you can bet your left kidney that caused a lot of discussion everywhere. The first of anything is special, that's it. Charizard is popular as it was many people's first look at pokemon and their first Pokemon. Snake being the first third party character is significant because he showed people Smash wasn't going to be JUST Nintendo characters

 

[IronTed]

"The Big 3" (Mewtwo, Ridley, and K. Rool) got the most support out of any Nintendo characters during Smash 4's development. When Mewtwo was revealed, people went so crazy that reaction videos to his reveal made it to the trending page on YouTube. Ridley caused so many debates and flame wars that there wasn't a single person who didn't know his name (or Bigley's). K. Rool didn't get SUPER popular until the DLC, but man, people were pretty determined to get him in. Anyone remember the hundreds of K. Rool pictures people spammed on that final Smash Bros. photo contest they held on Miiverse?

Makes me wonder who the next " The Big 3" will be for the next game. Will Ridley and K. Rool still be a part of it, or will some other surprise candidates pop up and steal the spotlight?


They're nostalgic, but they haven't really made an impact like the other third-parties (save for maybe Bayonetta). Getting replaced by their chameleon and bat doppelgangers didn't do much to help their case either.

I do recall the big 3, if I'm not mistaken Ridley skewed much more to the west for... pretty obvious reasons. His controversiality is pretty remarkable given how popular Metroid is.

The Greninja reveal will forever be hilarious to me though, it really proved how desperate people were for Mewtwo. Short of another cut, I don't see anyone getting close to that kind of anticipation.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

The first of anything is special, that's it.

I already expressed my feelings on the absurdity of caring about characters simply for their being the first of some arbitrary category added to Smash. It seems you don't have anything else to say about it, so I guess that conversation is over.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I already expressed my feelings on the absurdity of caring about characters simply for their being the first of some arbitrary category added to Smash. It seems you don't have anything else to say about it, so I guess that conversation is over.

I mean, there's more to be added about Snake, and it was about why I felt Snake deserved the spot. You didn't ask for anything else. And you're acting like third party characters are a trivial matter

 

[Deleted member]

Doomguy has had a lot to work with: Fists, Chainsaw, plasma rifle, Big Fricken' Gun, Gauss cannon. I think he is alright.

I think the problem isn't so much real world firearms but more accessible real world firearms so Heavy Weapons Guy could still make use of Sasha but not his shotgun. But everyone knows his go-to secondary is Sandvich.

And if that's still a problem, just give him the Huo-Long Heater and make it shoot fireworks instead of bullets like it was originally going to do.
Hell, give a custom paintjob exclusive to Smash, like maybe a Bowser-themed one.

 

[Staarih]

Would Banjo really be a ”megaton” reveal? I’ve never played the games so I have that against me but he’s never struck me as an ”icon” either, maybe that’s just me. Wouldn’t mind him in Smash though.

I think that going forward from now, it’s not going to be a goal to top any reveals from previous games. Hype or ”megaton” reveals may be less about being an icon or having legacy (the big names are in Smash already bar maybe Snake and someone like... Lara Croft) and be more about phenomena or trends, seems to be part of culture nowadays anyway. This is why something as predictable as an Inkling reveal will probably be a huge deal, especially in Japan where Splatoon blew up. Anything Minecraft is another one which would gain major attention because of how widespread it is. Though to be honest, any new reveal will always be hype, it’s not like anyone would be like ”nahh, this isn’t as hype as that Cloud reveal a few years back”. Excitement happens in the now.

Ridley reveal would be amazing, but it would only blow minds of the Smash community more than ”common folk”.

 

[Deleted member]

Crash would be a bigger megaton than Banjo, honestly.

 

[Cosmic77]

Anything Minecraft is another one which would gain major attention because of how widespread it is.

Ridley reveal would be amazing, but it would only blow minds of the Smash community more than ”common folk”.

Ridley will impress the Smash community. Common folk won't care.

Minecraft will impress the common folk. The Smash community will cancel pre-orders won't care.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Crash would be a bigger megaton than Banjo, honestly.

This. He's basically Sony's Mario in comparison, though nowhere near as big, obviously. He was their main platforming king. That was a huge impact overall.

Ridley will impress the Smash community. Common folk won't care.

Minecraft will impress the common folk. The Smash community will cancel pre-orders won't care.

The Smash Community would care more in comparison, at least. Since there are big fans of Minecraft among the Smash community too. It's mostly a casual thing, though.

I mean, there's more to be added about Snake, and it was about why I felt Snake deserved the spot. You didn't ask for anything else. And you're acting like third party characters are a trivial matter

Obviously just being the 1st of the 3rd parties alone isn't a severe deal, but it still matters too. We wouldn't have any others if it weren't for Snake, especially not Sonic. Maybe some might have appeared in 4, namely Pac-Man, but the rest may not have had an easy chance(Bayonetta is an interesting case because having more ties with Sega helped make licensing either. However, considering that Sonic got back in Smash due to 3 exclusive Nintendo games, it's clear that just being iconic or popular was not enough in itself outside of Brawl at best). That said, them being hugely iconic is beyond important and why all the 3rd parties(bar Snake and Bayonetta) had requirements of a gaming history to get in. Sakurai has always treated 3rd parties as a huge deal and won't stop doing so. Only two examples aren't specifically about that, and they're still a huge deal to the fanbase, both coincidentally from a M-rated series.

 

[Deleted member]

I unironically support this.

She'll probably be eligible as I expect Dragon Ball FightersZ to be ported to the Switch. I mean Namco did make a big deal about Xenoverse 2 being a success. But seriously, at that point we might as well add Goku.

You’d think that after the success of the Switch so far, any third party companies (Konami included) would be eager to co-operate, Smash especially works amazingly for promotion. Super Bomberman R is doing exceptionally well, it climbed the charts yet again during Christmas, so Konami ought to be happy. While I don’t know how things actually go down when it comes to guest appearances in Smash, and if Snake/MGS is a possibility anymore, if they really wanted something to happen, negotiations shouldn’t be hard to arrange.

Unless tension cools down between Kojima and Konami, I would bet on Bomberman before Snake's return. If Konami still considers Kojima a nasty thorn on their side, they're not going to let Snake back in purely out of spite. It may sound foolish but sanity, Konami, and Metal Gear mix like oil, water, and fire.

Konami's choice is going to be Bomberman which is,

• A multi-player icon
• Not controversial
• Recent
• Has a successful game that's still adding contents and was the result of a joint collaboration between Nintendo and Konami

What third-party is a more obvious pick for Nintendo now? Konami may or may not hate Snake now but with Nintendo gaining a lot of respect from Japanese third-parties and Smash being one of the top 5 biggest IPs Nintendo has, you bet Konami wants a character in Smash. With all Bomberman has going for him, he serves as the perfect compromise for both Konami and Nintendo so that Nintendo doesn't have to deal with the mess that is the Kojima controversy to get a well-known and recent Konami character.

I’m still rooting for Banjo-Kazooie to be the Snake/Cloud of SSB5... a popular third-party character who seems unlikely because they are on the competitors’ consoles. Then again, Banjo-Kazooie is on Xbox and Snake/Cloud are on PlayStation... maybe we might get another PlayStation character. I would be fine with Crash Bandicoot. He had games on Game Boy Advance, Gamecube, DS, and Wii so he meets the “must have a game on Nintendo console” bare minimum requirement. I liked his remake trilogy. I just want Banjo-Kazooie more.

Oh, and Simon Belmont for Smash! Don’t forget him.

Please let this happen. I know Steve is infinitely more likely but I would totally line up to play him. Banjo-Kazooie and Banjo-Tooie were great games and re-playing the first over the summer brings back good memories of probably the 4th game I've ever played.

Never gonna happen. Nintendo seems to not give a **** about characters made by Western developers.

Diddy is the only excpetion to this and even then, he's still a Nintendo character in the grand scheme of things.

This. For better or worse, Nintendo and by extension, Sakurai, has a bias towards Japanese games and that's natural; Japan is their home country. So it makes sense why they will favor Japanese characters even if not everyone here does. It's also why when it comes to third-party character speculation that it's best to look at Japanese third-party franchises.

Steve doesn't count because he's Microsoft's first-party. Same with Banjo-Kazooie as a reminder.
---
Verde Coeden Scalesworth Source on Sonic being included because of the three exculsive Nintendo games?

 

[IronTed]

Ridley will impress the Smash community. Common folk won't care.

Minecraft will impress the common folk. The Smash community will cancel pre-orders won't care.

Pretty much. I mean, Bayonetta was another crazy reveal, yet the vast majority of people didn't really care as much in comparison. Granted, I guess the Smash community cares about everything more in comparison.

Still reinforces the point that most of the "big guns" have been used thus far, which is to be somewhat expected of a well established franchise like Smash. The days of new, big IP's selling off of mascots are long gone.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

[QUOTE="Fuzzy Pickles!, post: 21903448, member: 159795" Verde Coeden Scalesworth Source on Sonic being included because of the three exculsive Nintendo games?[/QUOTE]
Ask NonSpecificGuy , he keeps bringing it up. I almost never bring it up, but I remember him talking about the source, so naturally I take the truth of the matter into account and all.

 

[Bowserlick]

Ridley would be a big draw as a character. People like dragons.

The key is not to make the character completely suck or be overly powerful.

Possible solution: Give Ridley one jump. This jump he performs with his legs. In order to access more jumps, he needs to use an UP B, which puts him in fly mode. He gains 2-3 more jumps that he uses with his wings. He does not get his jumps back until he hits the ground.

 

[Deleted member]

[QUOTE="Fuzzy Pickles!, post: 21903448, member: 159795" Verde Coeden Scalesworth Source on Sonic being included because of the three exculsive Nintendo games?

Ask NonSpecificGuy , he keeps bringing it up. I almost never bring it up, but I remember him talking about the source, so naturally I take the truth of the matter into account and all.[/QUOTE]May as well...
NonSpecificGuy Do you happen to have sources on Sonic being added because of the three exclusive Nintendo games? That could change things.

 

[Cosmic77]

This. For better or worse, Nintendo and by extension, Sakurai, has a bias towards Japanese games and that's natural; Japan is their home country. So it makes sense why they will favor Japanese characters even if not everyone here does. It's also why when it comes to third-party character speculation that it's best to look at Japanese third-party franchises.

Steve doesn't count because he's Microsoft's first-party. Same with Banjo-Kazooie as a reminder.

To be fair, most of the big gaming icons were created in Japan. Even if Sakurai does have a bias in that regard, he's probably not doing it intentionally. It's not like there's many popular non-Japanese Nintendo characters to choose from (or at least ones that would actually make sense on the roster).

Ridley would be a big draw as a character. People like dragons.

The key is not to make the character completely suck or be overly powerful.

Possible solution: Give Ridley one jump. This jump he performs with his legs. In order to access more jumps, he needs to use an UP B, which puts him in fly mode. He gains 2-3 more jumps that he uses with his wings. He does not get his jumps back until he hits the ground.

I think Ridley would work well if he was one of the slowest character on the ground but one of the fastest characters in the air. Maybe he could have multiple jumps, with each one quickly pushing him through the air.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

"The Big 3" (Mewtwo, Ridley, and K. Rool) got the most support out of any Nintendo characters during Smash 4's development. When Mewtwo was revealed, people went so crazy that reaction videos to his reveal made it to the trending page on YouTube. Ridley caused so many debates and flame wars that there wasn't a single person who didn't know his name (or Bigley's). K. Rool didn't get SUPER popular until the DLC, but man, people were pretty determined to get him in. Anyone remember the hundreds of K. Rool pictures people spammed on that final Smash Bros. photo contest they held on Miiverse?

Makes me wonder who the next " The Big 3" will be for the next game. Will Ridley and K. Rool still be a part of it, or will some other surprise candidates pop up and steal the spotlight?

I could've sworn that it was "The Big 4" and Little Mac was a part of it.

Mega Man was up there with the most demanded, but The Big 4 wasn't really established as a thing in the community until post-E3 2013, as far as I know.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Little Mac was popular, just not on the insane level of Mewtwo, Ridley, Mega Man and K.Rool. Those where easily THE biggest character suggestions.

 

[NintenRob]

I remember Isaac being up there in popularity too.


One of my biggest hopes for Smash on Switch is that they go all out for costumes, especially for the Zelda cast.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I think a Splatoon rep is the biggest gun that isn't yet utilised. You can tell they didn't think they'd do it justice with the dev time available for DLC.

I could even come up with multiple movesets based off the different weapons, all sharing the same ink dive move. (FE characters share counter so it's not that big a stretch.)

 

[Deleted member]

We hit three hundred pages. Nice job guys!

Crash would be a bigger megaton than Banjo, honestly.

Agreed.
I played Crash Bandicoot N'Sane Trilogy on my PS4 Pro and I have to say, it was one of my favorite games. Banjo Kazooie was a large hit on the Nintendo 64 and was really good ( better than the Original Crash Bandicoot ). I want Banjo Kazooie in Smash, but Crash Bandicoot was like the Sony's "Mario". Either way, both are suitable in my eyes, but Crash Bandicoot is slightly my pick right now.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Crash and Bano both have the "the other team is playing here!" vibe but that's not quite 100% the case.

Crash is owned by activision so they are free to do with him as they wish.
And Microsoft seems to be slowly pulling out of the console market and Rare can still make handheld games on other platforms as Microsoft has no steak in taht market. Either way, you could see MS making a quick nostalgia buck by letting Nintendo do most of the work.

 

[Ura]

Come here Ura ,someone follows your way.
An Advanced Wars character would be pretty interesting, and it is said Nintendo killed it. Even though the company that owns it killed it, it is still a potential Smash character.

He mentioned Gears of War. IDK what that has to do with Advance Wars.

And "Advanced Wars". I want to cry.

Yeah, but again, IS killed it and only cares about Fire Emblem now... well, there's Paper Mario too, but it's a shadow of its former self, so it doesn't count.

Point is IS is gonna want more FE in Smash, not a dead franchise. If they have a say on who gets in from the games they make, which is probably the case because they're the ones who make the damn games, I wouldn't expect an Advance Wars character until a new AW game shows up. In other words, never.

Aww geez, thanks for the reminder.

Advance Wars is dead for now but it's not dead forever mind you. IS is milking FE as much as they can right now and it's probably going to be that way for the next 2, 3, 4, or even 5 years.

As much as i'm critical of IS's treatment of AW, I don't expect them to leave the series dead for another decade. There has to be something in the 2020's. Hopefully the early part of the decade.

If nothing else maybe Andy could get in as a retro character of sorts. Unlikely I guess (you don't need to tell me that. I know there's going to be people telling me that in the replies). Andy himself debuted in 2001 but the Wars series started in 1988 so it's fine really.

Crash would be a bigger megaton than Banjo, honestly.

Yeah. I'm a fan of both series but I have no illusions as to who's the bigger name and draw to Smash.

And it's much easier to include Crash given that unlike Banjo he's not own by the competition. Contrary to what some people think about Crash being a "Sony" character which is completely false and inaccurate.

 

[Deleted member]

She'll probably be eligible as I expect Dragon Ball FightersZ to be ported to the Switch. I mean Namco did make a big deal about Xenoverse 2 being a success. But seriously, at that point we might as well add Goku.

That's not how it works.
People are taking the "must have debuted in a video game" thing too literally.

That's not even what was said. That was just what people INTERPRETED what was said.
What had been actually said is that "manga characters will not join the battle".

That doesn't translate to "characters that belong to a manga IP that have originated from a video game for said IP are acceptable".
There is a big reason manga characters weren't being considered for Smash thus far; they are a ***** and a half to obtain the rights for. That isn't any different between someone like Goku and someone like Android 21. The latter may have debuted in a video game, but her rights belong to the same exact companies and individuals that Goku's do.

 

[Deleted member]

That's not how it works.
People are taking the "must have debuted in a video game" thing too literally.

That's not even what was said. That was just what people INTERPRETED what was said.
What had been actually said is that "manga characters will not join the battle".

That doesn't translate to "characters that belong to a manga IP that have originated from a video game for said IP are acceptable".
There is a big reason manga characters weren't being considered for Smash thus far; they are a ***** and a half to obtain the rights for. That isn't any different between someone like Goku and someone like Android 21. The latter may have debuted in a video game, but her rights belong to the same exact companies and individuals that Goku's do.

I had forgotten about that so I'll be keeping that in mind for next time. So I'm guessing this means if Sakurai wanted to and rights permits, he could add characters from Romance of the Three Kingdoms and Dynasty Warriors even though they are based on real life (at least from what I recall as I haven't played the games).

On that note, didn't Sakurai reject James Bond in Melee because of rights issues?

 

[Deleted member]

I had forgotten about that so I'll be keeping that in mind for next time. So I'm guessing this means if Sakurai wanted to and rights permits, he could add characters from Romance of the Three Kingdoms and Dynasty Warriors even though they are based on real life (at least from what I recall as I haven't played the games).

On that note, didn't Sakurai reject James Bond in Melee because of rights issues?

That was one of the reasons, yes. Because Goldeneye 007 N64 was based on a movie, which means more legal hoops to jump through.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That's not how it works.
People are taking the "must have debuted in a video game" thing too literally.

That's not even what was said. That was just what people INTERPRETED what was said.
What had been actually said is that "manga characters will not join the battle".

That doesn't translate to "characters that belong to a manga IP that have originated from a video game for said IP are acceptable".
There is a big reason manga characters weren't being considered for Smash thus far; they are a ***** and a half to obtain the rights for. That isn't any different between someone like Goku and someone like Android 21. The latter may have debuted in a video game, but her rights belong to the same exact companies and individuals that Goku's do.

Although the fact he's laughing at the idea of Spongebob and Shrek has some implications. As did the Smash Ballot saying they only wanted video game characters.

It's not confirmation exactly, but it's not hard to believe he overall wants characters who originate from video games at this point. But you are correct that it's not entirely an official rule(it's more a fan rule interpreted from the various statements and such).

Mind you, for the purpose of this section, some of the fanrules are taken into account for what support topics are allowed, but eh. We gotta have a basic standard to help control the topics, you know? If any character could get in, without any actual requirements, supposedly, it'd open up a ton of topics and basically would be hard to moderate. And yes, I'm going to note that's why our forum rules aren't identical to what Sakurai has said.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

May as well...
NonSpecificGuy Do you happen to have sources on Sonic being added because of the three exclusive Nintendo games? That could change things.

Can't recall when it was but I remember around the time Sonic Lost World was announced, maybe E3, they said they had a 3 game exclusivity deal for Sonic games. The first being Mario & Sonic, the second being Lost World, and the third being Boom. They announced Sonic in Smash a couple months or so afterwards so I just kinda put the pieces together.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Can't recall when it was but I remember around the time Sonic Lost World was announced, maybe E3, they said they had a 3 game exclusivity deal for Sonic games. The first being Mario & Sonic, the second being Lost World, and the third being Boom. They announced Sonic in Smash a couple months or so afterwards so I just kinda put the pieces together.

...So it's just something of a theory. Okay, that changes things. Fair enough and thanks for clarifying.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

...So it's just something of a theory. Okay, that changes things. Fair enough and thanks for clarifying.

It may be but I seem to remember it being confirmed at some point. Maybe in the pic of the day? Can't remember.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

He's boring too, and he shouldn't have gotten in.

You have every right to be wrong.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It may be but I seem to remember it being confirmed at some point. Maybe in the pic of the day? Can't remember.

Eh, might not be a bad idea to look for it. Maybe you remembered right. It's not unusual to remember something wrong due to believing it, like if you misinterpreted the data a bit.

 

[Deleted member]

An armor-Mewtwo skin would be cool for Mewtwo. Also, please replace Greninja's final smash with Ash-Greninja doing something. Also, add a Shiny Greninja skin, that would be great, same for Mewtwo.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

An armor-Mewtwo skin would be cool for Mewtwo.

Would be cool, but it and any alternate costume feel like a second thought to me for most characters, expecially since most are gender swaps. If they have some extra development time, maybe? And even then, Game Freak or the Pokemon Company (not sure which, maybe both?)nhas to be cool with it, iirc.

In other words, could happen, just don't expect it as a priority or likely.

Also, please replace Greninja's final smash with Ash-Greninja doing something.

Could happen. Or maybe it'll just be Ash-Greninja doing the same thing.

Or maybe they won't change it at all because the current one is already awesome.

Also, add a Shiny Greninja skin, that would be great, same for Mewtwo.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

The armored Mewtwo in Project M is rad.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

An armor-Mewtwo skin would be cool for Mewtwo. Also, please replace Greninja's final smash with Ash-Greninja doing something. Also, add a Shiny Greninja skin, that would be great, same for Mewtwo.

That would pretty much depend on the Pokemon Company rather than the Smash development team. For some reason, they don't allow certain shiny variations to appear on other games sometimes. They are weird like that.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

That would pretty much depend on the Pokemon Company rather than the Smash development team. For some reason, they don't allow certain shiny variations to appear on other games sometimes. They are weird like that.

My theory for it is simple; finding a Shiny shouldn't be as easy as looking for palette swaps