Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That would pretty much depend on the Pokemon Company rather than the Smash development team. For some reason, they don't allow certain shiny variations to appear on other games sometimes. They are weird like that.

You'd be surprised how some companies are severely picky about their characters' palettes alone. There's a reason why Sonic's colors are pretty mediocre. Or Pac-Man's. Thankfully both Capcom companies were pretty nice with Ryu and MegaMan, as with Konami and Snake, likewise with Sega and Bayonetta. Cloud was a bit more lucky than some, getting a proper alt design, but even then, his colors aren't that notable.

In fact, this isn't just lame for the fact that they're meh recolors, it's that it even affects tourneys when you can barely tell them apart. :/

 

[WiFi]

This is just speculation, but the Pokémon company doesn't allow shiny alternates in Smash because it ruins the surprise of seeing that particular Pokémon in its shiny form. I believe Wolf got first for the USA in the Smash Ballot, so I wouldn't be surprised at all if he returned.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

This is just speculation, but the Pokémon company doesn't allow shiny alternates in Smash because it ruins the surprise of seeing that particular Pokémon in its shiny form. I believe Wolf got first for the USA in the Smash Ballot, so I wouldn't be surprised at all if he returned.

That was never confirmed, though Sakurai stating "Bayonetta was voted more then even characters from previous games." Does raise some questions.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That was never confirmed, though Sakurai stating "Bayonetta was voted more then even characters from previous games." Does raise some questions.

Of course, that would just mean that UK's votes had her in first place, and while in the top 5 for the other two main regions combined had all her votes higher than any veteran. Well, that's what it sounds like.

Honestly, as much as I like Wolf, I think many are way overstating his popularity. He had a lot of hatred too as isn't hyper popular in every region either. Krystal shares the same point, although Wolf seems to be overall more popular. Keep in mind his reveal in Brawl got actual ire at the time, which says a lot.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Wolf is awesome in PM.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Honestly, as much as I like Wolf, I think many are way overstating his popularity. He had a lot of hatred too as isn't hyper popular in every region either. Krystal shares the same point, although Wolf seems to be overall more popular. Keep in mind his reveal in Brawl got actual ire at the time, which says a lot.

Indeed. I found it very ironic when Wolf was very missed when Smash 4 came out despite being very hated when the Brawl roster was revealed. Same for Lucas. Lucas eventually got better at least.
It shows that the Smash fanbase can be very fickle, and why trying to please everyone is the perfect formula for failure.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

It's not fickleness, it's the idiotic no cuts mentality.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It's not fickleness, it's the idiotic no cuts mentality.

It's not idiotic at all. It's just lack of how the game's developments work. Honestly, a lot of the fans won't know how development works and it doesn't make sense to expect them to. They're just players. Not everybody is in game development.

Also, I think we'd all appreciate it if you didn't make inflammatory remarks towards the fanbase. Please keep it nice.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I understand not wanting your character getting cut, but we live in a real world and sometimes concessions have to made. The 'all or nothing attitude' is just too toxic. You can't always get everything you want.

I've seen people who are so salty about certain cuts or characters that they wanted but didn't make it in that they flock to mods of Ridley, Waluigi or Wolf and claim that they are better than any Smash 4 newcomer. They will never admit it, but I'm sure they are just forcing themselves to like that just to spite Smash 4 fans and the creators. It is quite petty.

This is not an attack on mods, btw.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Also, I think we'd all appreciate it if you didn't make inflammatory remarks towards the fanbase. Please keep it nice.

Being part of the fanbase does not entail having the no cuts mentality.

I understand not wanting your character getting cut, but we live in a real world and sometimes concessions have to made. The 'all or nothing attitude' is just too toxic. You can't always get everything you want.

I don't even mind people not wanting their main cut. That makes sense to me. It's people who want no cuts for some vague principle or for hypothetical hurt feelings of other people. These are the obnoxious fools who spam 'NO CUTS', oblivious to the fact that putting their opinion in all capitals only makes it look more childish.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I understand not wanting your character getting cut, but we live in a real world and sometimes concessions have to made. The 'all or nothing attitude' is just too toxic. You can't always get everything you want.

I've seen people who are so salty about certain cuts or characters that they wanted but didn't make it in that they flock to mods of Ridley, Waluigi or Wolf and claim that they are better than any Smash 4 newcomer. They will never admit it, but I'm sure they are just forcing themselves to like that just to spite Smash 4 fans and the creators. It is quite petty.

This is not an attack on mods, btw.

So much this. It's kind of silly to expect everything to come back. However, it doesn't mean they legitimately would understand the situation either. Of course, explaining it to them is always the correct answer.

 

[Krysco]

Barring 3rd party characters, if they really, really wanted to, they could add in every veteran, be it through base roster or dlc. It all depends how much time they want to dedicate to making characters and when they want the game released. It's not realistic to hope for by any means but it is possible.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Of course, that would just mean that UK's votes had her in first place, and while in the top 5 for the other two main regions combined had all her votes higher than any veteran. Well, that's what it sounds like.

Honestly, as much as I like Wolf, I think many are way overstating his popularity. He had a lot of hatred too as isn't hyper popular in every region either. Krystal shares the same point, although Wolf seems to be overall more popular. Keep in mind his reveal in Brawl got actual ire at the time, which says a lot.

I think he said that in reference to all the regions together. It's no unlikely that Wolf could've been above Bayonetta in Japan and America but overall Bayonetta was in Top 5 of all of them as well and #1 in Europe. So all in all she was Number 1 in the grand scheme of things. When it all was averaged together.

I understand not wanting your character getting cut, but we live in a real world and sometimes concessions have to made. The 'all or nothing attitude' is just too toxic. You can't always get everything you want.

I've seen people who are so salty about certain cuts or characters that they wanted but didn't make it in that they flock to mods of Ridley, Waluigi or Wolf and claim that they are better than any Smash 4 newcomer. They will never admit it, but I'm sure they are just forcing themselves to like that just to spite Smash 4 fans and the creators. It is quite petty.

This is not an attack on mods, btw.

I agree but opinions are opinions and you can't completely blame people for liking a mod or game that has their favorite character over the one that doesn't. Yeah, they can't say that it's objectively better than the game that doesn't have that character but, in my case, Brawl and Project M will always be better games FOR me because of Snake; and mostly Snake but also, Ike, Ice Climbers, and Wolf all being in the same game despite me knowing that Smash 4 is objectively better. Hell yeah, if those 3 were in Smash 4 alongside Ike, Smash 4 would be my perfect game.

And it's not all the fans fault for expecting every character they love to come back especially in this day and age of DLC where as long as there's still DLC there's a chance for them ALL to come back.

Yeah it's toxic to say that since characters didn't make it in, the game is **** but it's not like necessarily in the wrong for wanting something. Especially when the promise of DLC is always right there in your face at all times.

On Wolf. Here's a scenario. Wolf got released instead of Lucas. Then what? Is Lucas absolutely dead in the water because he wasn't added as post DLC in the previous Super Smash Bros game?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Barring 3rd party characters, if they really, really wanted to, they could add in every veteran, be it through base roster or dlc. It all depends how much time they want to dedicate to making characters and when they want the game released. It's not realistic to hope for by any means but it is possible.

They could, but they won't. It's impossible to balance everyone when the roster gets that huge. This is part of why cuts happen. They effectively replace Young Link with Toon Link as more of a graphical upgrade(just like the OOT 4 became TP) as well, so while he could be separated easily, the purpose remained the same.

As you're aware, Toon Link, like Young Link, mainly exists as a Child Link and even has a rule Sakurai created that as a clone, he has the same special moves. Mind you, it appears to be literally the only case where he applied this rule, but it makes a bit of sense when you realize both Links legitimately have the same iconic moves anyway(Spin Attack, Bomb, Boomerang, Bow).

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I think he said that in reference to all the regions together. It's no unlikely that Wolf could've been above Bayonetta in Japan and America but overall Bayonetta was in Top 5 of all of them as well and #1 in Europe. So all in all she was Number 1 in the grand scheme of things. When it all was averaged together.



I agree but opinions are opinions and you can't completely blame people for liking a mod or game that has their favorite character over the one that doesn't. Yeah, they can't say that it's objectively better than the game that doesn't have that character but, in my case, Brawl and Project M will always be better games FOR me because of Snake; and mostly Snake but also, Ike, Ice Climbers, and Wolf all being in the same game despite me knowing that Smash 4 is objectively better. Hell yeah, if those 3 were in Smash 4 alongside Ike, Smash 4 would be my perfect game.

And it's not all the fans fault for expecting every character they love to come back especially in this day and age of DLC where as long as there's still DLC there's a chance for them ALL to come back.

Yeah it's toxic to say that since characters didn't make it in, the game is **** but it's not like necessarily in the wrong for wanting something. Especially when the promise of DLC is always right there in your face at all times.

On Wolf. Here's a scenario. Wolf got released instead of Lucas. Then what? Is Lucas absolutely dead in the water because he wasn't added as post DLC in the previous Super Smash Bros game?

And that's alright. I'm just highlighting the worst, extreme examples. I'm pretty sure a lot of people will have their reasons for liking a game, mod, etc. better, while I'm also sure that there are those who just swim against the tide just because. I've seen people say that every Smash 4 newcomer is crap or that it's roster is bad while praising a Ridley mod that does not even play, looks nor behaves like a full fledged character. Sure, taste can be subjective but if you were to try to convince me with every fiber of your being that that is better than anything the Smash team has put out, I would start questioning your standards. Spite and contrarism is something that runs within this fandom when it is convenient.


People also need to understand that even with DLC, not all character choices are feasible. The key is to inform oneself on how this things work behind the scenes. And just to be clear, I never said that they are wrong for wanting one character. It's the following vitriol that comes from not getting it that is just plain wrong. Players would have to learn to accept that Wolf came back and Lucas simply missed his chance, which would be a shame, but this things happen.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

And that's alright. I'm just highlighting the worst, extreme examples. I'm pretty sure a lot of people will have their reasons for liking a game, mod, etc. better, while I'm also sure that there are those who just swim against the tide just because. I've seen people say that every Smash 4 newcomer is crap or that it's roster is bad while praising a Ridley mod that does not even play, looks nor behaves like a full fledged character. Sure, taste can be subjective but if you were to try to convince me with every fiber of your being that that is better than anything the Smash team has put out, I would start questioning your standards. Spite and contrarism is something that runs within this fandom when it is convenient.

This so much. I've seen this Ridley mod. Cool idea, but it needs lots of work. I want him playable, but I also get why he's not(which at least the whole "too big" isn't entirely off from the truth).

People also need to understand that even with DLC, not all character choices are feasible. The key is to inform oneself on how this things work behind the scenes. And just to be clear, I never said that they are wrong for wanting one character. It's the following vitriol that comes from not getting it that is just plain wrong. Players would have to learn to accept that Wolf came back and Lucas simply missed his chance, which would be a shame, but this things happen.

This too. I mean, take a look at the Pokemon choices for a moment. It's kind of hard to bring back Ivysaur or Squirtle without the other. Then you have Pichu, which did not go over well(its fanbase is the minority), and while it legitimately could've been interesting with either a modified moveset or simply due to Rage alone, it wouldn't have sold all that well. As a base character, it would've done way better. Young Link is traditionally a clone as I said above, so it's unlikely they'd remake him. Snake was still under Konami-related issues, and there might've been more to it like exactly why he didn't get in Smash 4 in the first place, but who knows. Wolf actually is more of a case of "missing the boat". The constant delays on Star Fox Zero, his most recent game, didn't help at all. Not that he'd be solely added to "promote the game" so much as "he's getting in because he is recent as a character again". IC's were obviously not going to happen since the 3DS issues didn't get changed. Did I cover everyone?

 

[Krysco]

They could, but they won't. It's impossible to balance everyone when the roster gets that huge. This is part of why cuts happen. They effectively replace Young Link with Toon Link as more of a graphical upgrade(just like the OOT 4 became TP) as well, so while he could be separated easily, the purpose remained the same.

As you're aware, Toon Link, like Young Link, mainly exists as a Child Link and even has a rule Sakurai created that as a clone, he has the same special moves. Mind you, it appears to be literally the only case where he applied this rule, but it makes a bit of sense when you realize both Links legitimately have the same iconic moves anyway(Spin Attack, Bomb, Boomerang, Bow).

Ugggggh, damn nightly clean up ate my post. Originally said that Yink is the least likely vet to return given the circumstances but that it is possible. An MM based moveset or being given unique moves like what Roy got.

Also wondered what the largest official roster a fighting game has and how balanced it is, brought up how 1v1 bslance largely only mattered to the devs with Sm4sh snd I brought up how Puff never got buffs, and non top tiers got nerfed and lastly how good Bayo and Cloud turned out to be as points against balance for Sm4sh as it is since you mentioned adding the older vets in a new gane would make balance difficult.

If anyone wants, I'll try to clarify better later but my break is almost over so this is the best I can do for now.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Ugggggh, damn nightly clean up ate my post. Originally said that Yink is the least likely vet to return given the circumstances but that it is possible. An MM based moveset or being given unique moves like what Roy got.

Also wondered what the largest official roster a fighting game has and how balanced it is, brought up how 1v1 bslance largely only mattered to the devs with Sm4sh snd I brought up how Puff never got buffs, and non top tiers got nerfed and lastly how good Bayo and Cloud turned out to be as points against balance for Sm4sh as it is since you mentioned adding the older vets in a new gane would make balance difficult.

If anyone wants, I'll try to clarify better later but my break is almost over so this is the best I can do for now.

Yeah, won't lie, some of your post looks hard to read.

Anyway, the issue is Yink still has the factor of being Link, who has 4 iconic moves. I could see some moveset differences, but not the Special Moves at this point. Not that I think he has a real chance of coming, but eh. As for the Final Smash, there's literally no reason to keep it Triforce Slash too. There's no traditional reason, or iconic reason in this case. As I said above, every Link is known for the Spin Attack, Bomb, Boomerang, and Bow. Even Soul Calibur made that clear. It's what he does. They may not appear in every game(in fact, the Spin Attack started in ALTTP, but the other 3 were absent in Zelda II, and the Bow sometime is replaced by a similar type of item in usage), when you ask what Link does, those 4 things come to mind heavily. Albeit, the Spin Attack less so, but the other 3 items are very important to who he is. I would be okay with slightly varying them with Yink by having a spirit-like being of the Zora, Goron, and Deku show up as he does the respective similar moves, with them being updated, but while that at least fits the criteria of iconic and makes him unique, it doesn't seem likely. Although to be fair, their more specific variants of the moves are extremely different. The Bubble Deku Link makes is very slow and has stunning properties. Zora Link's Fin Boomerangs come out in pairs as is, which already would make a difference alone. Finally, Goron Link's Powder Keg is significantly more powerful. You could technically switch Deku Link to the Spin Attack instead(as he does have both an aerial and ground variant) and keep the Bow, as that was a centralizing item to the MM, and key to the actual dungeons, but... well, you get the idea of the iconic weapon issue.

However, the Roy comparison falls flat. He was a clone, but he also didn't have specific iconic moves in the same way the Links do. Their 4 special moves are beyond iconic. Thus, he is easy to change around because he isn't tied to key moves that make him recognizable to anywhere near the same degree. Also, didn't his special moves more or less stay the same anyway?

 

[Krysco]

Yeah, won't lie, some of your post looks hard to read.

Anyway, the issue is Yink still has the factor of being Link, who has 4 iconic moves. I could see some moveset differences, but not the Special Moves at this point. Not that I think he has a real chance of coming, but eh. As for the Final Smash, there's literally no reason to keep it Triforce Slash too. There's no traditional reason, or iconic reason in this case. As I said above, every Link is known for the Spin Attack, Bomb, Boomerang, and Bow. Even Soul Calibur made that clear. It's what he does. They may not appear in every game(in fact, the Spin Attack started in ALTTP, but the other 3 were absent in Zelda II, and the Bow sometime is replaced by a similar type of item in usage), when you ask what Link does, those 4 things come to mind heavily. Albeit, the Spin Attack less so, but the other 3 items are very important to who he is. I would be okay with slightly varying them with Yink by having a spirit-like being of the Zora, Goron, and Deku show up as he does the respective similar moves, with them being updated, but while that at least fits the criteria of iconic and makes him unique, it doesn't seem likely. Although to be fair, their more specific variants of the moves are extremely different. The Bubble Deku Link makes is very slow and has stunning properties. Zora Link's Fin Boomerangs come out in pairs as is, which already would make a difference alone. Finally, Goron Link's Powder Keg is significantly more powerful. You could technically switch Deku Link to the Spin Attack instead(as he does have both an aerial and ground variant) and keep the Bow, as that was a centralizing item to the MM, and key to the actual dungeons, but... well, you get the idea of the iconic weapon issue.

However, the Roy comparison falls flat. He was a clone, but he also didn't have specific iconic moves in the same way the Links do. Their 4 special moves are beyond iconic. Thus, he is easy to change around because he isn't tied to key moves that make him recognizable to anywhere near the same degree. Also, didn't his special moves more or less stay the same anyway?

I'll see about changing my text colour to a lighter purple when I get home. You're not the first to mention having a hard time reading my posts.

As for Yink, I honestly don't care if he ends up with the same specials as the other Links. At the very least, keep his fire arrows and make them behave like the custom Tink has. The Roy comparison was moreso for normals. Jab, ftilt, utilt, dash attack and fair are all different from Marth's visually and he got Ike's dair. Yink could get a few moves tweaked to stand out.

But my post that started this discussion was about how all first party vets could come back, not just Yink. And I agree that he is the least likely since he was effectively replaced. I feel Wolf has the highest chance of returning due to no over representation for his series, then Squirtle and Ivysaur since they aren't clones which would make them sell better as dlc, then Pichu since he was a clone but wasn't teplaced and lastly Yink.

Post might be sloppy since I'm typing fast and not looking it over

 

[NintenRob]

I wouldn't mind Young Link, I like his design and his games are among my favourite.

I especially like how he looks in Hyrule Warriors.very cute. And he's a beast to play as.

He'd be a pointless addition but I'd still like it

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

And that's alright. I'm just highlighting the worst, extreme examples. I'm pretty sure a lot of people will have their reasons for liking a game, mod, etc. better, while I'm also sure that there are those who just swim against the tide just because. I've seen people say that every Smash 4 newcomer is crap or that it's roster is bad while praising a Ridley mod that does not even play, looks nor behaves like a full fledged character. Sure, taste can be subjective but if you were to try to convince me with every fiber of your being that that is better than anything the Smash team has put out, I would start questioning your standards. Spite and contrarism is something that runs within this fandom when it is convenient.


People also need to understand that even with DLC, not all character choices are feasible. The key is to inform oneself on how this things work behind the scenes. And just to be clear, I never said that they are wrong for wanting one character. It's the following vitriol that comes from not getting it that is just plain wrong. Players would have to learn to accept that Wolf came back and Lucas simply missed his chance, which would be a shame, but this things happen.

I have absolutely no disagreement here. It is worth noting that if Smash becomes a platform after Smash 4, with updates to the roster periodically through free and paid updates a la Rainbow Six: Siege or Overwatch, all of our assumptions could change. I actually find this a possibility and it may upset some but it's easier to build on a game for a long time than it is to spend just as much time to create a whole new game.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I remember Isaac being up there in popularity too.

*sigh* Yes he also was... Shame he's so forgotten ever since. Am just now trying to beat the final boss of Dark Dawn, I really wish they continued the franchise. I hope they'll do remakes of the first 3 games one day and then make a new game after. A man can dream can't he?

 

[Krysco]

Verde Coeden Scalesworth something my post that got eaten brought up was that even though Yink has the potential to have a moveset based on MM, I didn't consider it likely, using Ganondorf as a comparison since it's been 3 games and he's still based on Captain Falcon rather than his Zelda appearances. Whatever playstyle a character starts with in Smash, they tend to keep so if Yink does come back, he'll likely be a smaller, lighter, shorter ranged, faster version of Link which Tink already covers. Just wanted to clarify that since my post after the clean up was a very rough version of what it was meant to be.

 

[Curious Villager]

It might be unlikely they'd bring back transformations for Young Link either considering that the whole concept was very unpopular among the fanbase and I think even Sakurai noted that when he talked about it during one of his interviews. Not to mention the fact that veteran characters generally remain consistent with their past appearances with maybe some adjustments here and there, seems unlikely they would do something like mask transformations for Young Link if he where to come back...

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

If transformations were unpopular, I posit that it was due to their implementation. One could not choose which pokemon to use - one had to follow the set order. Samus's final smash again forced the player to switch to Zero Suit Samus. There was almost no advantage to being able to switch between Zelda and Sheik, so some people wished they had a regular down special.

 

[Cosmic77]

I don't even mind people not wanting their main cut. That makes sense to me. It's people who want no cuts for some vague principle or for hypothetical hurt feelings of other people. These are the obnoxious fools who spam 'NO CUTS', oblivious to the fact that putting their opinion in all capitals only makes it look more childish.

You don't need to take so much offense to those who think there will be no cuts. There's a reason why I like cutting so many characters off of my speculatory Smash 5 roster. People who choose to believe that all characters will stay are taking a huge gamble on setting themselves up for major disappointment. If they want to invest their faith in the best-case scenario from the get go, leave them be.

It might be unlikely they'd bring back transformations for Young Link either considering that the whole concept was very unpopular among the fanbase and I think even Sakurai noted that when he talked about it during one of his interviews. Not to mention the fact that veteran characters generally remain consistent with their past appearances with maybe some adjustments here and there, seems unlikely they would do something like mask transformations for Young Link if he where to come back...

I think limitations on the 3DS was a convenient way to have a legitimate reason to ditch an unpopular concept once and for all. There's always a chance they could come back, but I can't think of any reason why they should. Either Young Link returns with a similar moveset, or he doesn't return at all.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Verde Coeden Scalesworth something my post that got eaten brought up was that even though Yink has the potential to have a moveset based on MM, I didn't consider it likely, using Ganondorf as a comparison since it's been 3 games and he's still based on Captain Falcon rather than his Zelda appearances. Whatever playstyle a character starts with in Smash, they tend to keep so if Yink does come back, he'll likely be a smaller, lighter, shorter ranged, faster version of Link which Tink already covers. Just wanted to clarify that since my post after the clean up was a very rough version of what it was meant to be.

No, it was that your post was made when you were tired, so it looked somewhat incoherent. I couldn't parse what you meant. I have colors disabled. Apologies for the confusion.

Although for Young Link, he's a bit different in a sense since Toon Link is already the de facto Child Link clone. However, as noted, the issue was more that his iconic moves are his B moves, as it's more than just a clone thing. Of course, it's hard to say if that's even a real reason for why Sakurai insists on not changing them up with Toon Link at all. He only pointed out it was tradition due to being a clone, which is odd. Although if somebody has a bit more information on what he said on the US and Japanese Dojo, it might help a bit.

That said, I'm not so sure he'd go for Transformations again. They have never worked out, and aren't all that popular as is, and it's not entirely just cause of how they're implemented. Some actually just don't want to switch out and want to focus on one total style. This is actually the key reason for the Zelda/Sheik debacle, not so much the fact Zelda was awful. Zelda saw less play due to that specifically, as her being bad combined with trying to master two movesets was not something people were interested in. Transformations honestly really don't make the game better, as it only makes it harder to master a character's playstyle. They're inherently unbalanced for competitive play and only made for a cool concept, but are impossible to balance in multiple ways.

 

[Krysco]

No, it was that your post was made when you were tired, so it looked somewhat incoherent. I couldn't parse what you meant. I have colors disabled. Apologies for the confusion.

Although for Young Link, he's a bit different in a sense since Toon Link is already the de facto Child Link clone. However, as noted, the issue was more that his iconic moves are his B moves, as it's more than just a clone thing. Of course, it's hard to say if that's even a real reason for why Sakurai insists on not changing them up with Toon Link at all. He only pointed out it was tradition due to being a clone, which is odd. Although if somebody has a bit more information on what he said on the US and Japanese Dojo, it might help a bit.

That said, I'm not so sure he'd go for Transformations again. They have never worked out, and aren't all that popular as is, and it's not entirely just cause of how they're implemented. Some actually just don't want to switch out and want to focus on one total style. This is actually the key reason for the Zelda/Sheik debacle, not so much the fact Zelda was awful. Zelda saw less play due to that specifically, as her being bad combined with trying to master two movesets was not something people were interested in. Transformations honestly really don't make the game better, as it only makes it harder to master a character's playstyle. They're inherently unbalanced for competitive play and only made for a cool concept, but are impossible to balance in multiple ways.

Ah okay, yeah, I haven't looked back at my posts so they could very well be an incoherent mess. The joys of posting while on a night shift.

And while I did bring up the MM moveset idea, I don't entirely expect it to be a transformation character if it were to happen. I'm thinking more along the lines of Corrin. For example, his fsmash could be a punch with the Goron form where he quickly puts the mask on, the charging animation is the Goron winding up the punch and whenever you release the charge, he releases it before taking the mask off. I still don't think the MM moveset would ever happen since Yink already has an established moveset and even worse is that he can't be like what Sm4sh Doc was originally planned to be and what Alph ended up as since Yink's anatomy is too different from Tink's for him to work properly as an alt.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Ah okay, yeah, I haven't looked back at my posts so they could very well be an incoherent mess. The joys of posting while on a night shift.

And while I did bring up the MM moveset idea, I don't entirely expect it to be a transformation character if it were to happen. I'm thinking more along the lines of Corrin. For example, his fsmash could be a punch with the Goron form where he quickly puts the mask on, the charging animation is the Goron winding up the punch and whenever you release the charge, he releases it before taking the mask off. I still don't think the MM moveset would ever happen since Yink already has an established moveset and even worse is that he can't be like what Sm4sh Doc was originally planned to be and what Alph ended up as since Yink's anatomy is too different from Tink's for him to work properly as an alt.

Yeah, that was a bit of the idea I was thinking of when I talked about the Special moves. It doesn't change what moves exist, it just makes them more unique. Also, just transforming for moves is kind of Corrin's thing(while a few others use some moves, like Pac-Man, Corrin is very different in the way they use the gimmick), so using moves while showing the spirit of the form instead might stand out more as different. It also fits, since the masks are actual spirits of the characters trapped inside a Mask. Albeit, it's for story reasons, and only Deku Link isn't a completely separate person either(although that might've been something not established in the US versions, but it just looked like a proper transformation into a form. Goron and Zora were actual character spirits put into masks).

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

There's nothing inherently unbalanced about transformation characters, nor is it impossible to balance them.

Anyway, isn't Shulk a fairly successful "transformation" character?

Albeit, it's for story reasons, and only Deku Link isn't a completely separate person either(although that might've been something not established in the US versions, but it just looked like a proper transformation into a form. Goron and Zora were actual character spirits put into masks).

...Isn't the Deku Mask from the Deku Butler's dead son?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Young Link coming back is extremely unlikely. Not that am against it. But if he'd come back don't expect him changed up much, like Roy.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

You don't need to take so much offense to those who think there will be no cuts.

What I take offense to is a mob of posters shouting down any argument to cut a character.

 

[Schnee117]

Anyway, isn't Shulk a fairly successful "transformation" character?

No because he doesn't even transform. He's the equivalent to a character using a trait that gives a buff for a few seconds but also has a debuff of sorts (ie. Bane in both Injustice games)

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

So what's the defintion of a 'transformation character'? Does the character model have to change?

 

[Megadoomer]

I don't even mind people not wanting their main cut. That makes sense to me. It's people who want no cuts for some vague principle or for hypothetical hurt feelings of other people. These are the obnoxious fools who spam 'NO CUTS', oblivious to the fact that putting their opinion in all capitals only makes it look more childish.

It's about empathy. I've had my main cut twice now (Mewtwo between Melee and Brawl, Snake between Brawl and Smash 4); it's not something that I'd rather go through again, and I wouldn't want it to happen to someone else.

With clone characters, it seems easier to make a transition to another character on the roster (if Dark Pit gets cut, the people who mained him can still play Pit), but I'd prefer it if as few unique characters were removed as possible.

Ideally, none of them would be, and none of the Smash 4 cast seems to have the potential technical issues that the Ice Climbers did, but there's still the possibility of an outside company, like Intelligent Systems, the Pokemon Company/Game Freak, or one of the third party companies not wanting their character in the game, or suggesting that a newer character should take priority over a veteran.

 

[Diddy Kong]

What I take offense to is a mob of posters shouting down any argument to cut a character.

Which characters would you cut and for what reason? I am not too much on the anti-cut boat. I'd cut quite some Smash 4 newcomers if it where to me honestly.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

When I post my roster, you can read all about it. I'm not going to bother defending my cuts here only to do it again later.

 

[Diddy Kong]

When I post my roster, you can read all about it. I'm not going to bother defending my cuts here only to do it again later.

Expect to do exactly such cause you cannot expect everyone here to have seen your last roster. I for example didn't see it. And if you'd have character cuts who don't make much sense, you WILL be asked for your reasoning. That's just common sense.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

So what's the defintion of a 'transformation character'? Does the character model have to change?

Basically, it's a fighter who can change to a different character altogether. Examples included Zelda changing into Sheik (in Melee and Brawl), and the Pokemon Trainer changing his Pokemon. Samus could also change into Zero Suit Samus in Brawl, but only after executing her Final Smash.

Some fighters also have Final Smash transformations, which include Bowser, Wario, Little Mac, and Lucario (Smash 3DS / Wii U only). Giga Bowser, Wario-Man, Giga Mac, and Mega Lucario all operate the same way as a standard fighter, and as such, their direct attacks are affected by size changes. However, unlike a standard transformation, a Final Smash transformation is only temporary.

It should also be noted that Final Smashes like Super Dragon, Super Sonic, Octopus, and Mega Charizard X do NOT count as transformations, as they do not operate the same way as a standard fighter. This is further evidenced by the fact that their attacks are unaffected by the damage multipliers that are used in a giant or tiny special smash.

 

[Cosmic77]

With clone characters, it seems easier to make a transition to another character on the roster (if Dark Pit gets cut, the people who mained him can still play Pit), but I'd prefer it if as few unique characters were removed as possible.

This is why I'd really like intentional cuts to be limited to clone characters. I like Lucas, and my cousin likes Dr. Mario. Seeing them both go would be harsh, but at least we'd have a similar character to fall back on. Not everyone has an advantage like that.