Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Deleted member]

Honesetly, I do not know why Wolf was removed. At the same time, I am fine without Wolf's return.

And that's alright. I'm just highlighting the worst, extreme examples. I'm pretty sure a lot of people will have their reasons for liking a game, mod, etc. better, while I'm also sure that there are those who just swim against the tide just because. I've seen people say that every Smash 4 newcomer is crap or that it's roster is bad while praising a Ridley mod that does not even play, looks nor behaves like a full fledged character. Sure, taste can be subjective but if you were to try to convince me with every fiber of your being that that is better than anything the Smash team has put out, I would start questioning your standards. Spite and contrarism is something that runs within this fandom when it is convenient.


People also need to understand that even with DLC, not all character choices are feasible. The key is to inform oneself on how this things work behind the scenes. And just to be clear, I never said that they are wrong for wanting one character. It's the following vitriol that comes from not getting it that is just plain wrong. Players would have to learn to accept that Wolf came back and Lucas simply missed his chance, which would be a shame, but this things happen.

I agree with this, people need to deal with characters not getting added.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

So what's the defintion of a 'transformation character'? Does the character model have to change?

I'd say Mario & Sonic Guy covered most of it, but it doesn't need to be a character change.

For starters, "stance character" would be a more fitting term in fighting game tropes, which isn't wrong; when the "transformation" characters transform, they take a completely new fighting style and play very differently. Plus, aside from the Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon, all the transformations are the same characters as the original, but in a different form (Zelda as a ninja and Samus without her Power Suit). Non-Smash examples of this include Gen and Zeku from Street Fighter, Jill in Marvel vs Capcom 3 or virtually every Mortal Kombat character from Deadly Alliance to Armaggeddon since those games had a universal stance system.

However, the whole concept of transformation was thrown away in Smash 4 due to the 3DS's limitations, but there is still one character who uses a stance system; Shulk with his Monado Arts. The way this was done was not through a model change, but a change in attributes, thus causing you to essentially play 6 characters at once without the need of coming up with 6 different movesets, which saves quite a bit of development time.

Long story short, as long as there's something that causes a drastic change in how you play them, it's a stance character. Doesn't need a model change or even a moveset change, as proven by Shulk.

 

[Deleted member]

This is why I'd really like intentional cuts to be limited to clone characters. I like Lucas, and my cousin likes Dr. Mario. Seeing them both go would be harsh, but at least we'd have a similar character to fall back on. Not everyone has an advantage like that.

Characters like Lucas and Roy are not even close to being clones.

The only thing Lucas shares with Ness are B moves and even then they functions differently with separate properties. Roy received considerable decloning with changing most of his A moves and some of his B moves having different functions (like his neutral). Plus both have strongly different metagame that makes adapting one character play style impossible.

Neither come close to being considered a clone. In fact, calling Lucas a semi-clone is being generous as he’s more like an unique character that just happens to share some characteristics of Ness’s B moves.

So yes, cutting Lucas would be cutting an unique character. If he gets cut again, it won’t be because of his move set.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

This is just speculation, but the Pokémon company doesn't allow shiny alternates in Smash because it ruins the surprise of seeing that particular Pokémon in its shiny form. I believe Wolf got first for the USA in the Smash Ballot, so I wouldn't be surprised at all if he returned.

As much as I am a huge Wolf supporter, I'd be surprised if he was at the very top of the ballot. I'm sure as veterans go, Snake and the ICs performed better than him since they for being slightly more unique characters.

 

[Luminario]

Though I'm glad that all transformation characters were separated, I would like to see a character capable of switching their specials on the go. I'd say Rex or a Style Savvy character would be good candidates for that gimmick.

 

[Lukingordex]

So what's the defintion of a 'transformation character'? Does the character model have to change?

I'd say the character needs to change his moveset entirely or at least parts of it to fit this criteria. Shulk may change his attributes such as speed, knockback or damage but his moveset remains unchanged; not even a bit of frame data change happens to him

 

[Mega Bidoof]

That would pretty much depend on the Pokemon Company rather than the Smash development team. For some reason, they don't allow certain shiny variations to appear on other games sometimes. They are weird like that.

Is there a source on that? I've always wondered why there aren't shiny variants for the Pokémon in Smash. It seemed like common sense.

 

[Cosmic77]

Characters like Lucas and Roy are not even close to being clones.

The only thing Lucas shares with Ness are B moves and even then they functions differently with separate properties. Roy received considerable decloning with changing most of his A moves and some of his B moves having different functions (like his neutral). Plus both have strongly different metagame that makes adapting one character play style impossible.

Neither come close to being considered a clone. In fact, calling Lucas a semi-clone is being generous as he’s more like an unique character that just happens to share some characteristics of Ness’s B moves.

So yes, cutting Lucas would be cutting an unique character. If he gets cut again, it won’t be because of his move set.

Both of those characters still have more than enough to qualify them as semi-clones.

Ness and Lucas share the same size, weight, and speed. That, piled on top of all of his specials functioning very similar to the ones Ness has, makes most people consider him a semi-clone.

Roy has the opposite problem of Lucas. His size, speed, weight, and falling speed greatly differ from Marth, but many of his attacks function similar to Marth's. Yes, the sweetspot on his sword is inverted, but that doesn't do much to differentiate him if he still uses many of the same tilts, smash attacks, and throws as Marth.

The only semi-clones we've had that are debatably unique characters are Luigi and Wolf, and even then most of their moves are copied from their counterparts and changed during development. While Lucas and Roy aren't full-fledged clones, they certainly aren't on the same level of uniqueness as the rest of the characters on the roster.

As much as I am a huge Wolf supporter, I'd be surprised if he was at the very top of the ballot. I'm sure as veterans go, Snake and the ICs performed better than him since they for being slightly more unique characters.

I don't remember any of the veterans besides Lucas and Roy being extremely popular requests after the release of Smash Wii U, but I think Wolf may have done a little better than Snake. I was surprised to find out Snake wasn't wildly requested like Roy was.

The biggest problem with Wolf is that people actually EXPECTED him to be a part of the final DLC. "Star Fox Zero is coming out next year, so I think we'll get Wolf and, like, maybe two more DLC characters for Smash 4." If people didn't assume so much from Wolf, he might have performed notably better in the ballot.

 

[Delzethin]

That would pretty much depend on the Pokemon Company rather than the Smash development team. For some reason, they don't allow certain shiny variations to appear on other games sometimes. They are weird like that.

Is there a source on that? I've always wondered why there aren't shiny variants for the Pokémon in Smash. It seemed like common sense.

Far as I know, we don't know the exact reason, nor do we know if TPC is even enforcing anything regarding it. The narrative that they're holding out on us spread because for whatever reason, the Smash community tends to jump to conclusions and assume anything left out of the game must've been done as a middle finger to those who wanted it. It's not that simple.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

Whoops, accidental post, was trying to edit a previous one.

Edit: Well, I'll try to make something out of this anyway. On the Wolf vs Lucas thing that @NonSpecificGuy brought up, I believe Wolf is in a little bit better shape than Lucas would've been had Wolf gotten into the game instead. Wolf is from a franchise that still has hope of seeing future installments albeit rarely while we all know that the Mother/Earthbound series is pretty much done. Another thing in Wolf's favor is that he has been in games that actually got a release outside of Japan.

 

[Cosmic77]

Wolf will be fine in the future, even if Star Fox stays dormant. A new game would improve his chances, but even without one I wouldn't write him off. As the most-recurring antagonist of the Star Fox series, there's always going to be a decent reason to include him in a new Smash game.

Not sure about Lucas, though I feel like he'd return in any Smash game if the fan demand was high enough.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Smash 4 cut basically all semi clones new from Brawl. Kept those who made it from Melee to Brawl, as Luigi (DUH), Falco and Ganondorf.

Lucas was also added before MOTHER 3 was actually released. Or at least he was planned that time. Still wasn't a good reason to cut him I feel. I doubt he took much development time after all. Most time probably went into building Ryu with his exact Street Fighter moveset I imagine.

Anyway the cuts of Lucas and Wolf might explain why there where no new semi-clone additions to Smash 4. Does Dr.Mario count tho? I don't really think so but he's no full clone either. I do hope for more roster buffs by adding more clones and semi-clones however.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Smash 4 cut basically all semi clones new from Brawl. Kept those who made it from Melee to Brawl, as Luigi (DUH), Falco and Ganondorf.

Lucas was also added before MOTHER 3 was actually released. Or at least he was planned that time. Still wasn't a good reason to cut him I feel. I doubt he took much development time after all. Most time probably went into building Ryu with his exact Street Fighter moveset I imagine.

Anyway the cuts of Lucas and Wolf might explain why there where no new semi-clone additions to Smash 4. Does Dr.Mario count tho? I don't really think so but he's no full clone either. I do hope for more roster buffs by adding more clones and semi-clones however.

Actually, Wolf nor Lucas were relevant at the time, so they were easy cuts. Mother 3 had no re-release, and Wolf's only new game was taking a long time to make. It makes sense they fell under the "recency" factor and were cut because of it.

I don't like either cut either, but when you have to cut someone, those with no recency and aren't the only actual character of their series on the roster are easier to be expendable. If Star Fox Zero didn't get delayed so much, Wolf would've had an easier time coming back. As it is, there was no way for recency to get him back in, leaving popularity at best. And as said before, many believed he'd get in no matter what, and didn't vote.

 

[Pacack]

Man can't believe that another person thought about incorporating a Hanafuda-based character aswell! Beside for that love the choices. I could definitely see all of them being reasonably incorporated!

Lol, I actually started the Daitoryo support thread back in the Smash 4 speculation days.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Actually, Wolf nor Lucas were relevant at the time, so they were easy cuts. Mother 3 had no re-release, and Wolf's only new game was taking a long time to make. It makes sense they fell under the "recency" factor and were cut because of it.

I don't like either cut either, but when you have to cut someone, those with no recency and aren't the only actual character of their series on the roster are easier to be expendable. If Star Fox Zero didn't get delayed so much, Wolf would've had an easier time coming back. As it is, there was no way for recency to get him back in, leaving popularity at best. And as said before, many believed he'd get in no matter what, and didn't vote.

Star Fox 64 was decently recently released around Smash 4's time frame. If OOT 3D kept Sheik "relevant", SF64 3D should've kept Wolf relevant. This should really be no big discussion.

What's also weird is that Wolf was highly requested yet totally ignored with the final DLC. He was low priority in Brawl, sure. But that would've meant he didn't take much time to develop. His Brawl moveset should've been relatively easy to build up in Smash 4. It's just ignored completely, which I think is extremely odd. Sure there was no Melee veteran to couple him with, and there was the whole "we picked Lucas and Roy cause they the most popular" fiasco, but it was a easy bone to throw for the hungry wolves lollll

 

[Swamp Sensei]

What's also weird is that Wolf was highly requested yet totally ignored with the final DLC. He was low priority in Brawl, sure. But that would've meant he didn't take much time to develop. His Brawl moveset should've been relatively easy to build up in Smash 4. It's just ignored completely, which I think is extremely odd. Sure there was no Melee veteran to couple him with, and there was the whole "we picked Lucas and Roy cause they the most popular" fiasco, but it was a easy bone to throw for the hungry wolves lollll

Pretty sure every DLC character had to fill a niche.

• Mewtwo was chosen because he was super popular overall (the fact that the dojo ignored the fact that he's a vet kind of helps this idea).
• Lucas was deemed the most popular possible Brawl cut.
• Roy was deemed the most popular possible Melee cut.
• Ryu was a megaton third party that brought the hype.
• Cloud was a megaton third party that brought the hype.
• Corrin was chosen to promote a new release at the time of the DLC (Star Fox Zero wasn't released at a good time for this).
• Bayonetta was the ballot winner.

Unfortunately I think Wolf's only shots were the Brawl vet spot and the ballot winner spot.

 

[Krysco]

Maybe if Starfox games were focused on just being fun games and not held back by controller gimmicks, Zero could've come out sooner ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ oh well, guess we'll find out in 2026 when the next Starfox 64 reboot comes out.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I still think the option of "easy to add and popular so why the hell not" should've been a niche. But then again, am not game developer. Sakurai might've simply been done with the whole of Smash 4, and I can understand that pretty damn well cause I wouldn't really do the same. Tho, it's also another easy DLC money. So with that said, it's missed money. Then again, even Pichu would sell...

Also is Wolf really the most popular from Brawl? I guess Snake would be. But Squirtle also had quite a lot of fans lowkey I remember. There where quite a lot of people genuinely hapy about Squirtle's inclusion and didn't care much for Ivysaur or even Charizard. They could acutally be quite damn even actually.

Now that I think of it, I'd take back Squirtle before Wolf.

It sucks how Squirtle has no fans.

That said, Squirtle 4 Smash Switch

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Star Fox 64 was decently recently released around Smash 4's time frame. If OOT 3D kept Sheik "relevant", SF64 3D should've kept Wolf relevant. This should really be no big discussion.

What's also weird is that Wolf was highly requested yet totally ignored with the final DLC. He was low priority in Brawl, sure. But that would've meant he didn't take much time to develop. His Brawl moveset should've been relatively easy to build up in Smash 4. It's just ignored completely, which I think is extremely odd. Sure there was no Melee veteran to couple him with, and there was the whole "we picked Lucas and Roy cause they the most popular" fiasco, but it was a easy bone to throw for the hungry wolves lollll

OOT 3D didn't keep Sheik relevant. Sheik was already a popular mainstay vet. That's why she didn't leave.

There's no question he was easy to remake. However, as Swamp pointed out, he didn't have a specific niche they were going for. Who knows if a niche would've opened up if things were better for him(like Star Fox Zero, his most relevant new game, not being delayed), or if he had even more votes on the ballot(although to be fair, we don't know how heavily he was voted. The theory people didn't vote often due to expecting him is logical, but there's not enough data to say anything conclusively).

 

[Awesomeperson159]

I still think the option of "easy to add and popular so why the hell not" should've been a niche. But then again, am not game developer. Sakurai might've simply been done with the whole of Smash 4, and I can understand that pretty damn well cause I wouldn't really do the same. Tho, it's also another easy DLC money. So with that said, it's missed money. Then again, even Pichu would sell...

Also is Wolf really the most popular from Brawl? I guess Snake would be. But Squirtle also had quite a lot of fans lowkey I remember. There where quite a lot of people genuinely hapy about Squirtle's inclusion and didn't care much for Ivysaur or even Charizard. They could acutally be quite damn even actually.

Now that I think of it, I'd take back Squirtle before Wolf.

It sucks how Squirtle has no fans.

That said, Squirtle 4 Smash Switch

Yes. Squirtle and Ivysaur for Smash Switch. I mean, all the vets should return if they got cut, but my top 3 returns are Icies, Squirtle, and Ivysaur. #4 is Snake, #5 is Wolf and #6 is Pichu.

Speaking of Squirtle and Ivysaur, if they return, what would their new down specials be?

I think for Ivysaur, his Side Special (Razor Leaf) would become his down special. His Up Special (Vine Whip) would now go straight forward instead of diagonally and be moved to his side special, and his Up Special would now be Leaf Tornado: A multi-hitting attack where Ivysaur shoots a spinning column of leaves below him, thrusting him upwards and sucking opponents up.

Squirtle's Down Special could be either Ice Beam (shoots ice diagonally down in front of him, dealing good damage and very temporarily freezing opponents) or Aqua Tail (Tail turns blue and he slams the ground in front of him, releasing 2 columns of water in front of him).

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Smash 4 cut basically all semi clones new from Brawl. Kept those who made it from Melee to Brawl, as Luigi (DUH), Falco and Ganondorf.

Lucas was also added before MOTHER 3 was actually released. Or at least he was planned that time. Still wasn't a good reason to cut him I feel. I doubt he took much development time after all. Most time probably went into building Ryu with his exact Street Fighter moveset I imagine.

Anyway the cuts of Lucas and Wolf might explain why there where no new semi-clone additions to Smash 4. Does Dr.Mario count tho? I don't really think so but he's no full clone either. I do hope for more roster buffs by adding more clones and semi-clones however.

Being semi-clones could partly be a coincidence. I was shocked at Lucas's removal, leaving Ness to represent Earthbound alone, but it's important to note that Lucas is a Japan Only character and Wolf isn't exactly a necessary addition and was added in Brawl because he was highly requested, but easy to implement.

Nonetheless, Lucas and Wolf were my favorite characters in Brawl and I personally think it's important to have Lucas. He's the only other Earthbound protagonist there is. (Besides Ninten)

It's possible that they considered the possibility of adding these characters as DLC and thus they were lower priority.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

I still think the option of "easy to add and popular so why the hell not" should've been a niche. But then again, am not game developer. Sakurai might've simply been done with the whole of Smash 4, and I can understand that pretty damn well cause I wouldn't really do the same. Tho, it's also another easy DLC money. So with that said, it's missed money. Then again, even Pichu would sell...

Also is Wolf really the most popular from Brawl? I guess Snake would be. But Squirtle also had quite a lot of fans lowkey I remember. There where quite a lot of people genuinely hapy about Squirtle's inclusion and didn't care much for Ivysaur or even Charizard. They could acutally be quite damn even actually.

Now that I think of it, I'd take back Squirtle before Wolf.

It sucks how Squirtle has no fans.

That said, Squirtle 4 Smash Switch

Squirtle and Ivysaur definitely had their fans, but I still think Wolf was slightly more popular due to many people knowing that if one of the pokemon pair was added than the other would most likely have to come as well. While we're on the topic of these two though, I'm surprised they didn't get a whole ton of support regardless because they're easily more popular and recognizable than probably any pokemon on the roster other than Pikachu and Charizard (Not quite sure about Jigglypuff vs Ivy though) and after the huge success of Pokemon Go and are more relevant than ever and they still don't get a ton of support. Anyway, that brings me to a question for you guys, do you think it's a possible that in the next Smash game, be it a port or a new game, that we could get either Squirtle or Ivy along with Charizard leaving one of the trio out?

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

I'd rather have Spheal than Squirtle, but Squirtle is fun to watch in PM, and he gets his shades.

Anyway, that brings me to a question for you guys, do you think it's a possible that in the next Smash game, be it a port or a new game, that we could get either Squirtle or Ivy along with Charizard leaving one of the trio out?

No.

 

[Lukingordex]

I really doubt we'd get back any of the cut pokemons that didn't make it to 4 on smash 5. If we get a new pokemon in the next smash it will be one from gen 7 or gen 8 if it is already released or close to it

 

[Deleted member]

Pretty sure every DLC character had to fill a niche.

• Mewtwo was chosen because he was super popular overall (the fact that the dojo ignored the fact that he's a vet kind of helps this idea).
• Lucas was deemed the most popular possible Brawl cut.
• Roy was deemed the most popular possible Melee cut.
• Ryu was a megaton third party that brought the hype.
• Cloud was a megaton third party that brought the hype.
• Corrin was chosen to promote a new release at the time of the DLC (Star Fox Zero wasn't released at a good time for this).
• Bayonetta was the ballot winner.

Unfortunately I think Wolf's only shots were the Brawl vet spot and the ballot winner spot.

Honestly, after looking back at what Sakurai said about Lucas and Roy, I think it's only coincidence that one was Melee and one was Brawl.
I think it was just that they were among the most popular veterans in general after Mewtwo.

Sakurai: I was aware that, following Mewtwo, Lucas and Roy also enjoy considerable popularity. If we were to bring back a total of three fighters, I knew we couldn’t go wrong with these three.

It really could have just been Wolf was simply unlucky and would have been included if they decided to go with four Veterans instead of three.

 

[Pakky]

Weird thought.

Would you all just want adventure mode with cutscenes or Subspace?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Weird thought.

Would you all just want adventure mode with cutscenes or Subspace?

As much as I enjoyed SSE itself, that would mean extra development time. So probably Adventure Mode with cutscenes. Both are enjoyable in their own right, though.

 

[shinhed-echi]

I'm still holding on to hope to get the trainer back. And the cut Pokemon as part of his moveset. Or at least something like a Rosalina + Luma situation, except the Pokemon act as the trainer's smash attacks.

-
I would love to have a new SSE, tbh. But I can settle with Adventure mode + cutscenes.

 

[Pakky]

As much as I enjoyed SSE itself, that would mean extra development time. So probably Adventure Mode with cutscenes. Both are enjoyable in their own right, though.

Yes and I agree, I keep thinking to have all these angels* in the game Bayonetta should have more funny cutscenes with them. Or any really. But that's just a dream of mine.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yes and I agree, I keep thinking to have all these angles in the game Bayonetta should have more funny cutscenes with them. Or any really. But that's just a dream of mine.

At the very least, I'd like to see more character-specific win dialogue or more stage stuff like Codecs/etc. Even if they're not for every character per stage like the Codecs were, they're still fun and add spice to the game.

Regular Adventure Mode still had exciting intros for characters like Giga Bowser too.

 

[Staarih]

Interactions between the characters was, really, the best part of SSE, so I’d definitely take even a simpler Adventure Mode with cutscenes. Or even just some story/dialogue/”Smash lore”. So many of the characters would bring fun stuff to the table.

 

[Nonno Umby]

While a whole Story Mode is too much to ask, some cutscenes with different characters should be possible. They already did a few for some character reveal trailers in Smash 3DS/Wii U, like the Bowser jr, Duck Hunt and Wii Fit Trainer ones.

 

[Cosmic77]

Actually, Wolf nor Lucas were relevant at the time, so they were easy cuts. Mother 3 had no re-release, and Wolf's only new game was taking a long time to make. It makes sense they fell under the "recency" factor and were cut because of it.

I don't think relevancy has much of a role in deciding pre-existing Smash characters. If it did, Ike would've been dropped in Smash 4 (and yeah, a lot of people really did think Ike was getting cut.)

Honestly, after looking back at what Sakurai said about Lucas and Roy, I think it's only coincidence that one was Melee and one was Brawl.
I think it was just that they were among the most popular veterans in general after Mewtwo.

It really could have just been Wolf was simply unlucky and would have been included if they decided to go with four Veterans instead of three.

If we're looking solely at popularity, Lucas and Roy easily beat out Wolf. That being said, I would have preferred Wolf over Roy because Star Fox didn't get any characters in Smash 4 and because I felt like Wolf was the Star Fox character with the superior moveset.

But I was in the minority. Just couldn't compete with those people spamming "Roy's our boy!" and the overused "But Roy's already in Smash." joke.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Possibly but

Squirtle and Ivysaur definitely had their fans, but I still think Wolf was slightly more popular due to many people knowing that if one of the pokemon pair was added than the other would most likely have to come as well. While we're on the topic of these two though, I'm surprised they didn't get a whole ton of support regardless because they're easily more popular and recognizable than probably any pokemon on the roster other than Pikachu and Charizard (Not quite sure about Jigglypuff vs Ivy though) and after the huge success of Pokemon Go and are more relevant than ever and they still don't get a ton of support. Anyway, that brings me to a question for you guys, do you think it's a possible that in the next Smash game, be it a port or a new game, that we could get either Squirtle or Ivy along with Charizard leaving one of the trio out?

I really don't think it's possible. I'd hope for it, but am just not seeing it happening unfortunately. Maybe they'll add Blastoise however? Cause he seems a reasonable and popular addition, having a bit of a moveset similar to a faster and weaker, maybe even lighter Melee / Brawl Bowser with Hydro Pump of course.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Weird thought.

Would you all just want adventure mode with cutscenes or Subspace?

The only problem with Melee's Adventure Mode is the requirement of having to play it with every fighter in the game if you want all the fighter trophies. It gets very repetitive, especially since the stage order never changes.

The Subspace Emissary only requires you to do a single playthrough (two if you want to unlock all the cutscenes), making it far less repetitive than Melee's Adventure Mode, but its drawbacks come from the fact that you can only use certain fighters at certain stages.

 

[Krysco]

The only problem with Melee's Adventure Mode is the requirement of having to play it with every fighter in the game if you want all the fighter trophies. It gets very repetitive, especially since the stage order never changes.

The Subspace Emissary only requires you to do a single playthrough (two if you want to unlock all the cutscenes), making it far less repetitive than Melee's Adventure Mode, but its drawbacks come from the fact that you can only use certain fighters at certain stages.

All Star has this issue too and it's so damn bad. The stage doesn't always have to be the same but it's always from a pool based on who you're fighting. I don't recall how exactly Melee's worked save for the G&W horde always being at the end on Flat Zone but it felt so much better than the 'going in order' thing Brawl and Sm4sh did.

I also recall seeing people mentioning not liking Sm4sh's Classic mode (the Wii U one) and I honestly prefer it. Every run is different and you get to pick who you want to fight, how many and where for the most part. Only thing that really sucks is the random metal or giant foes that join and how sometimes you're forced into certain kinds of fights like when you have 3 choices and they all have 4 cpus, guaranteeing a 5 player smash.

As for the topic of Adventure mode, I'd like it if they added some variety to get rid of the issue you brought up and Melee's actually had a very small amount of 'cutscenes' like Luigi jumping on Mario's head (hey, the first instance of a footstool in Smash!) to enter the Peach's Castle fight and giiant Kirby falling onto the stage and smiling. Oh and also the cutscene after you beat Fox on Corneria and the Starfox crew flies in.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The thing is? Adventure Mode isn't just a bunch of fights and the same mini-game twice over either like Classic in Brawl(and Smash 4 drops the mini-game route). This is just tedious because there's almost no variety either. Adventure Mode is fine to play multiple times because it's a full out Adventure beyond pure regular battles. Both Smash 4 Classic Modes have more variety than Brawl too, but the lack of mini-games makes it feel fairly mindless.

SSE was neat in its own right too. More interesting than Adventure Mode in Melee, but also had more than one crappy stage(Melee's Adventure Mode had little issues, beyond being mostly repetitive, but it did have some unique bosses that you can fight depending upon how fast you finish some areas), and had lots of unnecessarily long areas, but also had annoyingly high gravity that caused stupid deaths. Probably the least liked part about the SSE(no, not the Maze itself, though that comes close) is the lack of most Nintendo enemies, having replacements(some of which are similar to Kirby enemies, but yeah). And I don't mean the bosses, which they actually had some variety outside of Smash OC's.

 

[Krysco]

The thing is? Adventure Mode isn't just a bunch of fights and the same mini-game twice over either like Classic in Brawl(and Smash 4 drops the mini-game route). This is just tedious because there's almost no variety either. Adventure Mode is fine to play multiple times because it's a full out Adventure beyond pure regular battles. Both Smash 4 Classic Modes have more variety than Brawl too, but the lack of mini-games makes it feel fairly mindless.

SSE was neat in its own right too. More interesting than Adventure Mode in Melee, but also had more than one crappy stage(Melee's Adventure Mode had little issues, beyond being mostly repetitive, but it did have some unique bosses that you can fight depending upon how fast you finish some areas), and had lots of unnecessarily long areas, but also had annoyingly high gravity that caused stupid deaths. Probably the least liked part about the SSE(no, not the Maze itself, though that comes close) is the lack of most Nintendo enemies, having replacements(some of which are similar to Kirby enemies, but yeah). And I don't mean the bosses, which they actually had some variety outside of Smash OC's.

That is a good point in regards to Classic. I'm not even sure I remember what all mini games there were. There was Break the Targets which I miss, 64 also had Board the Platforms, Melee had that one where there was a 'cup' in the middle and trophies fell and you had to knock them into the 'cup' and...were there any others? Oh wait! Race to the Finish in both 64 and Melee with 64 having a set path but different fighting polygons to try and stop you and Melee had no enemies but instead had a branching path at one point and different obstacles to overcome. Might still be forgetting one or more.

The enemy bit is a good point too though with Smash Run making use of various enemies from different Nintendo franchises, I can see that being a nonissue if an Adventure mode ever comes back. With the bit about SSE having really long areas, another part of that issue was the speed of all characters being slowed compared to normal fights unless you were doing 2 player and the 2nd player started to fall behind (first player never got this since the camera followed them).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That is a good point in regards to Classic. I'm not even sure I remember what all mini games there were. There was Break the Targets which I miss, 64 also had Board the Platforms, Melee had that one where there was a 'cup' in the middle and trophies fell and you had to knock them into the 'cup' and...were there any others? Oh wait! Race to the Finish in both 64 and Melee with 64 having a set path but different fighting polygons to try and stop you and Melee had no enemies but instead had a branching path at one point and different obstacles to overcome. Might still be forgetting one or more.

Pretty much. I get that there's a lot more franchises to represent, but there was no reason to cut Trophy Grab... as Brawl had an issue with making Trophies super hard to grab. Smash 4's classic completely changed it up, so the lack of mini-games doesn't feel as bad because the variety there helps. Target Smash!! should've been among there, though, imo.

The enemy bit is a good point too though with Smash Run making use of various enemies from different Nintendo franchises, I can see that being a nonissue if an Adventure mode ever comes back. With the bit about SSE having really long areas, another part of that issue was the speed of all characters being slowed compared to normal fights unless you were doing 2 player and the 2nd player started to fall behind (first player never got this since the camera followed them).

Smash Run pretty much is the new Adventure Mode, just way shorter, but has clearly a similar design. Honestly, if we had a proper cheat device option, I'd love to increase the time on that mode too...

And yeah, the slowdown/etc. for characters really hurt. Ganondorf became nearly unplayalbe in that mode at times, which is funny, since he's perfectly playable in the other games in any other mode overall. Like, the hardest thing is what, his Target Tests in Melee/Brawl at best?

I don't think relevancy has much of a role in deciding pre-existing Smash characters. If it did, Ike would've been dropped in Smash 4 (and yeah, a lot of people really did think Ike was getting cut.).

Actually, it did. Sakurai spoke directly on some cuts happening due to lack of recent new games. Ike actually was in recent new games as is via things like DLC. Hence, Star Fox 64 3D(which is more a remake/port in comparison) doesn't count. I forget where the article was, but @PushDustIn should know.

 

[Cosmic77]

Actually, it did. Sakurai spoke directly on some cuts happening due to lack of recent new games. Ike actually was in recent new games as is via things like DLC. Hence, Star Fox 64 3D(which is more a remake/port in comparison) doesn't count. I forget where the article was, but @PushDustIn should know.

I'll have to look into that. As far as I'm aware, the only comment Sakurai has made regarding relevancy was something like, "Characters from a franchise with no future are rarely chosen," but that was said in response to a question about choosing newcomers, not choosing character cuts.

And doesn't that reasoning between Wolf and Ike seem a little forced to you? "We can't add Wolf back because his latest appearance was as a major antagonist in a 2011 remake, but Ike is fine because he showed up as one of the many DLC characters, who had no impact on the main story, in a 2012 new game?