Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Cosmic77]

“Show ya’ b’nanas!”

Yeah, there's no way I'll win a fight against him if the player keeps spamming that taunt.

 

[NintenRob]

Switch news incoming. Apparently a new way to play aimed at kids and those are kids at heart.
Sounds gimmicky


Kinda hope Wii Fit Trainer is involved somehow, dunno why. I guess I want her to stay relevant and stuff like this is her best chance I reckon




Could also be Wario Ware. Giving Wario his first game since game and Wario

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I don't get all this "ports hardly influence Smash" nonsense.

Star Fox 64 3D apparently did not help Wolf's chances at all. And even if ports did help with a character's odds, Funky Kong would more than likely be at a lower priority level than characters like Dixie Kong or King K. Rool.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Ports did influence one thing in particular in Smash.

The Ocarina of Time Stage in Smash 3DS.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Even without Snake, Brawl still has the best roster and I'm not just saying that because of Wolf although he is part of it.

Objectively, no. Sure, Wolf, ICs and Snake were great, but in spite of difference in tastes when it comes to mechanics, the roster is something that just gets better each game. 4 brought a lot of cool new additions while also making an honest effort in bringing back old veterans that were missed from Brawl.

 

[Cosmic77]

Objectively, no. Sure, Wolf, ICs and Snake were great, but in spite of difference in tastes when it comes to mechanics, the roster is something that just gets better each game. 4 brought a lot of cool new additions while also making an honest effort in bringing back old veterans that were missed from Brawl.

I think he meant Brawl had the best list of newcomers. We got a nice mix of new franchises and old franchises receiving characters.

 

[Deleted member]

Ports did influence one thing in particular in Smash.

The Ocarina of Time Stage in Smash 3DS.

I am also thinking of the Yoshi's Island and Mushroom Kingdom II stages in Melee as well, due to the release of Mario Advance 1 and 2 on the GBA, being ports of SMB2 and SMW respectively.

 

[Spatman]

I think he meant Brawl had the best list of newcomers. We got a nice mix of new franchises and old franchises receiving characters.

I think it too, and in my opinion too Brawl newcomers >>> Smash4 vanilla newcomers
considering also dlcs the comparison would be severely closer (but still Brawl >) but it would be somewhat an unfair comparison.

Btw, it's pretty obvious that at every new smash game the newcomers are inferior than the previous games but the roster overall becomes bigger and better

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Melee's newcomers were mostly filling out the 3 bigger series, with a side order of retros and Fire Emblem

Brawl seemed to be filling out the characters who's absence seemed really baffling like Wario, King Dedede and Diddy Kong along with a few surprises and the 3rd parties.

Smash 4's newcomers seemed to focus on getting in new and interesting gameplay styles.

The DLC was finishing work on missing veterans and going to 3rd parties and saying "do you like free money?" (and Zoidberg)

That's my take on it at least.

 

[Krysco]

Was purposely left vague since it's a bit of a joke but also a bit of my honest opinion. I remember seeing a post in this thread many pages back that mentioned how Brawl added the last big batch of 'must haves' for Smash while Sm4sh added a bunch of 'nice to have but not 100% needed characters' and I honestly agree with that. There wasn't a single newcomer added to Brawl where I felt the need to ask 'why though?'. Recency wasn't a big thing for that game either. Sure there was Ike, Lucario and Lucas and Toon Link was more relevant than Young Link but Wario, Diddy, Sonic, Snake, Olimar, MK, Dedede, Zero Suit, Pokemon Trainer, Wolf, Pit all had a place in their franchise before a recent game. R.O.B. is the closest to a 'why though?' character and he fits the retro theme that ICies and G&W started and he kinda fits the 'recency' thing since he was in Mario Kart DS.

Bayonetta was due to the ballot, Cloud was out of left field, Jr, Villager, Megaman, Ryu, PAC-MAN, Mac, Miis, Duck Hunt I was all fine with, Corrin, Dark Pit, Robin, Lucina, Rosalina, Palutena, Greninja all felt like they got in purely due to recency. Wii Fit is the poster child for 'why though?'. Arguments have been made before for most, if not all of these characters and how important they are or how popular or how easy they were to add yada yada, free to feel whatever you feel, but I felt Brawl did a better job. Might also have to do with my forever lasting salt of Wolf not coming back and ICies being canned because of an inferior console. Brawl also didn't have clones and is the only game in the series to date to hold that distinction.

Sm4sh has a bigger roster but bigger isn't always better, least in my eyes.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Star Fox 64 3D apparently did not help Wolf's chances at all.

That doesn't follow. He could have failed to get in despite even greatly increased chances.

 

[Cosmic77]

Wii Fit is the poster child for 'why though?'.

Wii Fit is the poster child for 'Why not?'.

 

[Bowserlick]

If there is another Mario character, I believe Toad has the best shot.

Mariokart is a large, successful franchise. Toad is the speed character in Mario games. Perfect combination.

Toad comes with Mariokart sound effects, Mariokart items and blazing speed.

I suggested an eon ago that Toad should get rocket boots, but then Zero Suit Samus came along with her rocket high heels. Still, would be cool.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Ports did influence one thing in particular in Smash.

The Ocarina of Time Stage in Smash 3DS.

That's technically a remake but I'm just being picky.

Was purposely left vague since it's a bit of a joke but also a bit of my honest opinion. I remember seeing a post in this thread many pages back that mentioned how Brawl added the last big batch of 'must haves' for Smash while Sm4sh added a bunch of 'nice to have but not 100% needed characters' and I honestly agree with that. There wasn't a single newcomer added to Brawl where I felt the need to ask 'why though?'. Recency wasn't a big thing for that game either. Sure there was Ike, Lucario and Lucas and Toon Link was more relevant than Young Link but Wario, Diddy, Sonic, Snake, Olimar, MK, Dedede, Zero Suit, Pokemon Trainer, Wolf, Pit all had a place in their franchise before a recent game. R.O.B. is the closest to a 'why though?' character and he fits the retro theme that ICies and G&W started and he kinda fits the 'recency' thing since he was in Mario Kart DS.

Bayonetta was due to the ballot, Cloud was out of left field, Jr, Villager, Megaman, Ryu, PAC-MAN, Mac, Miis, Duck Hunt I was all fine with, Corrin, Dark Pit, Robin, Lucina, Rosalina, Palutena, Greninja all felt like they got in purely due to recency. Wii Fit is the poster child for 'why though?'. Arguments have been made before for most, if not all of these characters and how important they are or how popular or how easy they were to add yada yada, free to feel whatever you feel, but I felt Brawl did a better job. Might also have to do with my forever lasting salt of Wolf not coming back and ICies being canned because of an inferior console. Brawl also didn't have clones and is the only game in the series to date to hold that distinction.

Sm4sh has a bigger roster but bigger isn't always better, least in my eyes.

I'd say Little Mac was the one where I said 'oh finally!' which is probably what I would've said about Wario, Diddy, Dedede, and Wolf if I would've been active back then.

We're blowing the whole thing out of proportion a little bit but if Smash 4 wouldn't have cut the characters it did; Snake, Ice Climbers, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Wolf, and even Lucas we would've had what I consider a perfect roster. Especially after DLC brought in Legends like Ryu, Cloud, and Bayonetta and long time fan favorites like Roy, Mewtwo, and Lucas with the only outlier being Corrin who is still a fun character. This is a big reason I just want a port. Bring back these characters and give us a few more and it'll be my perfect game. With every new game comes new cuts and that's one thing about any fighting game I've never been a fan of.

 

[Rosalinatehplumber]

In my post about the roster, I meant the whole Smash 4 roster. Not just the newcomers and missing veterans. But, in terms of only newcomers I would say Brawl. It had lots of good characters Dedede, Sonic, Wario, MK, Lucario, Lucas, Wolf, etc. Still we only lost a few in Smash 4 and it could've been worse. Even losing "the big 3" being IC, Snake, and Wolf I can definitely live without them. But of course I wouldn't mind if they come back either.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I think it too, and in my opinion too Brawl newcomers >>> Smash4 vanilla newcomers
considering also dlcs the comparison would be severely closer (but still Brawl >) but it would be somewhat an unfair comparison.

Btw, it's pretty obvious that at every new smash game the newcomers are inferior than the previous games but the roster overall becomes bigger and better

To be fair though, adding newcomers becomes trickier with each installment.

On the first game it was fairly easy, where they just took the protagonists of each series. On the second one, they start adding deuteragonists, supporting characters and rivals while digging up a few ones from obscure franchises. The third one is similar in this regard; they also add protagonists from new games that were introduced in recent years. So by the fourth installment, almost every Nintendo Star and important support character is there, so they naturally are going to pull out obscurer choices as well as new supporting characters that were introduced in already existing franchises like Mario and Kid Icarus.

 

[Diddy Kong]

It's too bad that our good old reptilian tyrant hasn't seen the spotlight since Mario Super Sluggers.

A port of TF to the Switch could mean good news for a new DKCR game with TF's engine however. But yeah am not digging too deep into that. Am gonna buy a Switch for this game alone.

 

[Applebutter61]

This is something that I have... thought about. I think that making another regular smash game where they add new characters, stages, mechanics, gameplay options etc, just won't do it after 4 installments that has left us with a roster of 58 characters! Between the installments, you have it all. Melee: the most fiercly competetive and technical of the series. Brawl: famous 1 player mode among the series in SSE. Smash 4: Online mode and ridiculously large roster.

If nintendo just makes another smash game, I don't think it can be better than any other the previous installments combined. So? What do they do? What I think they is should do is something revolutioanary and different, something controversial even. I don't even know what it could be. If there comes out another smash game, nintendo better get real creative and give the smash community something new and refreshing.

 

[Ura]

In terms of newcomers added to each game...

64 > Melee > Smash 4 <=> Brawl

 

[shinhed-echi]

I don't know, I'm split between Brawl and Smash 4.

On one hand, Smash 4 had: which are god tier for me. And which are welcome additions.
On the other hand, Brawl had: which back then was god tier for me. And then () which I approved a lot. I never really cared about until I played as him later, but I can say the same for MANY characters in SSB4.

So my list is:
SSB4 + SSBB > SSB > SSBM (yeah, I didn't like the Melee roster. It was just SSB's plus mostly a few sidekicks and clones. There was no "OMFG!" character then, they were pretty darn safe picks that some of them I grew to love later on. But yeah, the original SSB had a more WOW factor than Melee's roster, if anyting for seeing Mario, Link, Pikachu, Kirby, Fox, and DK in the same game).

 

[Applebutter61]

So my list is:
SSB4 + SSBB > SSB > SSBM (yeah, I didn't like the Melee roster. It was just SSB's plus mostly a few sidekicks and clones. There was no "OMFG!" character then, they were pretty darn safe picks that some of them I grew to love later on. But yeah, the original SSB had a more WOW factor than Melee's roster, if anyting for seeing Mario, Link, Pikachu, Kirby, Fox, and DK in the same game).

Where does PM fall in that order for you?

 

[Cosmic77]

For me, it's Brawl > Melee > SSB4 (I'm not including 64 since it was the first game.)

Brawl did a nice job of distributing characters. Mario (if we count Wario), DK, Zelda, Kirby, Metroid, Star Fox, Pokémon, Fire Emblem, and Earthbound all got new characters, while KI and third-parties were introduced. That's how I like to see the roster handled.

Melee put a heavy emphasis on the pre-existing franchises getting newcomers, but these characters were pretty iconic. Hard to complain about Kirby and Metroid not getting new characters when we got Peach, Bowser, and Zelda. Just wish they thought of more new franchises besides FE and retro.

Even though I'm fine with what we got, the list of newcomers is a jumbled mess. This game added more new franchises than the original Smash game did. Including third-parties, exactly ten new franchises got slapped on the roster, all of which got a single character to represent them. The only pre-existing franchises to receive newcomers were Mario, Pokémon, FE, and KI. The roster isn't bad by any means, but I think Sakurai focused a little too much on new franchises for this game.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Brawl had an awesome roster which included all the characters that had to be included such as Diddy Kong, Lucas, Olimar, Wario, Metaknight, and so on while also throwing in a few curveballs like Ike and Toon Link. In addition, it really changed the game with both Sonic and Snake.

Smash 4 had an equally awesome roster but for a different reason. Since Brawl included much of the “must have’s”, Smash 4 included lots of “didn’t know I wanted them’s” such as WFT, Robin, Greninja, and DHD while also included a few remaining “must have’s”, “flavor of the months”. and “prediction list mainstays” such as Little Mac, Palutena, Megaman, PAC-man, and Shull. Finally, along with PAC-man and Megaman, the entire concept of 3rd party characters changed things as we got 3 more characters that were extremely well-received albeit viewed as highly unlikely prior to their announcement.

Both rosters are awesome for entirely different reasons. I wonder if Smash 5 might incorporate a little bit of both

 

[Ura]

I hope Smash 5 will bend some rules and incorporate Nintendo characters that aren't relevant but still historically significant.

Wishful thinking, I know.

 

[Deleted member]

Has anyone unironically brought up "Labo Robot" for Smash yet? No?
Damn, I thought this fanbase would be faster than that....

I hope Smash 5 will bend some rules and incorporate Nintendo characters that aren't relevant but still historically significant.

Wishful thinking, I know.

What are Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B., and Duck Hunt, then?

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

I assumed he meant characters that might be hard to justify as retro.

 

[Deleted member]

I assumed he meant characters that might be hard to justify as retro.

Problem is, "historically significant" doesn't really describe anyone that isn't from the old days.

And even then, just because you're "retro" doesn't mean you're historically significant. Like the Ice Climbers. They were literal nobodies until Melee.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I hope Smash 5 will bend some rules and incorporate Nintendo characters that aren't relevant but still historically significant.

Wishful thinking, I know.

Face it Ura, Advance Wars is dead!

Face it NSG, Takamaru is dead...

It's a good idea but it's HIGHLY unlikely I feel. Hell we couldn't even get Isaac and he and Little Mac came back the same year.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Problem is, "historically significant" doesn't really describe anyone that isn't from the old days.

And even then, just because you're "retro" doesn't mean you're historically significant. Like the Ice Climbers. They were literal nobodies until Melee.

If you think about it, the other retros were much bigger in their own right. Duck Hunt was a huge series, Game & Watch was its own handheld, and R.O.B. saved the game industry. Ice Climbers were just... a mediocre game(at best) that had an amazing gimmick idea, which ironically was also severely unbalanced too. And also what got them cut.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

So... cardboard Gamecube controller when?

 

[Deleted member]

If you think about it, the other retros were much bigger in their own right. Duck Hunt was a huge series, Game & Watch was its own handheld, and R.O.B. saved the game industry. Ice Climbers were just... a mediocre game(at best) that had an amazing gimmick idea, which ironically was also severely unbalanced too. And also what got them cut.

I wouldn't say Duck Hunt was a series. :V
But yeah, Duck Hunt was a pretty big deal, and the Dog was an icon in the gaming culture. Mainly because you wanted to kill the damn thing for laughing at you one too many times.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I wouldn't say Duck Hunt was a series. :V
But yeah, Duck Hunt was a pretty big deal, and the Dog was an icon in the gaming culture. Mainly because you wanted to kill the damn thing for laughing at you one too many times.

And now you can shoot him in Smash! :D

But yeah, franchise is technically more accurate in the context of Smash, heh.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

If you think about it, the other retros were much bigger in their own right. Duck Hunt was a huge series, Game & Watch was its own handheld, and R.O.B. saved the game industry. Ice Climbers were just... a mediocre game(at best) that had an amazing gimmick idea, which ironically was also severely unbalanced too. And also what got them cut.

No, the Ice Climbers were cut because of technical limitations on the 3DS, as evidenced by an unused crowd cheer file for them.

Trust me, if Smash 4 was exclusively on the Wii U (assuming 8-Player Smash wouldn't pose an issue) they'd be back.

EDIT: Oh wait you were referring to their gimmick being too much for the 3DS to handle, not that the gimmick in and of itself is what got them cut. My mistake.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

No, the Ice Climbers were cut because of technical limitations on the 3DS, as evidenced by an unused crowd cheer file for them.

Trust me, if Smash 4 was exclusively on the Wii U (assuming 8-Player Smash wouldn't pose an issue) they'd be back.

It's still the same point. Their gimmick is why the 3DS couldn't handle them. I guess I vaguely implied it instead of making it clear.

The gimmick did essentially get them both in and out of Smash. Which is quite an irony.

 

[Schnee117]

No, the Ice Climbers were cut because of technical limitations on the 3DS, as evidenced by an unused crowd cheer file for them.

Trust me, if Smash 4 was exclusively on the Wii U (assuming 8-Player Smash wouldn't pose an issue) they'd be back.

8 player Smash would be an issue considering they had to lessen the bones on other characters like WFT.
Ice Climbers would have it a lot worse because of the potential of more than 8 fighters on the field because they're always a pair.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Problem is, "historically significant" doesn't really describe anyone that isn't from the old days.

This seems wrong to me. Something from five years ago could be so great that its influence has already been seen or can rationally be expected.

And even then, just because you're "retro" doesn't mean you're historically significant. Like the Ice Climbers. They were literal nobodies until Melee.

I agree, but that isn't a counterpoint to what he or I said.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

8 player Smash would be an issue considering they had to lessen the bones on other characters like WFT.
Ice Climbers would have it a lot worse because of the potential of more than 8 fighters on the field because they're always a pair.

That was never confirmed though was it? Just a suspicion?

Either way the Switch is more powerful, even if marginally, it could probably handle 16 IC's.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Even though I'm fine with what we got, the list of newcomers is a jumbled mess. This game added more new franchises than the original Smash game did. Including third-parties, exactly ten new franchises got slapped on the roster, all of which got a single character to represent them. The only pre-existing franchises to receive newcomers were Mario, Pokémon, FE, and KI. The roster isn't bad by any means, but I think Sakurai focused a little too much on new franchises for this game.

It's the opposite for me. Mario/Zelda/AC/FE/Pokemon already get their fair share of exposure even outside Smash. The newer/obscurer ones are very rare, and much more interesting, for me at least.

Sure, there are unrelatable characters prior to Smash like WFT. But what if I wanted more from Little Mac, or Shulk, or Pit? Do I wait another 20 years for a new game? What about other lovable obscurer characters that havent even popped up in Smash yet?

Oh, not trying to change your mind or anything. It's just funny that I think the exact opposite. I could never get excited by characters like Dixie, Waluigi, or another FE character. But Say, Dillon? Spring Man? Isaac? Or even Nester? Please, step right up!

Where does PM fall in that order for you?

It's in an odd place between Melee and 64.
Because while it's the same roster as Brawl (+2) it artificially Stretched it out by separating transforming characters.
And I LOVED transforming characters, si you can imagine I wasn't the least amused...

Then again, they did included Roy and Mewtwo.. so that's extra points.

Ssb4+SSBB > 64 > PM > Melee

 

[Schnee117]

That was never confirmed though was it? Just a suspicion?

Either way the Switch is more powerful, even if marginally, it could probably handle 16 IC's.

It's a suspicion yes but it's worth thinking about considering a character without the "AI partner that does what you do" gimmick had to be altered for 8-player Smash (more probably did too but the WFT was easily more noticeable than others). With Ice Climbers you also have to consider how you're gonna alter every other character when there's 15 on the field (solo character plus 7 pairs of Climbers) plus the stages, their gimmicks (if they are kept in 8-player smash) and items.

 

[N3ON]

Can't wait until I get to play as Cardboard Optimus Prime in Smash.