Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

How ‘bout that direct?


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Nethermoosen

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I didn’t say Waluigi was special but sure man, whatever.

I wasn’t questioning why people wanted a character they liked but why this particular character was on an A-rank level of demand compared to more common frequent characters. That’s what I’m “looking for”.

I don’t like the special fan-made rules either and I sure as hell don’t make them, some of them apply to my wanted as well.
I was using Waluigi as a reference. He is special to his fans, but why? I couldn’t tell you, but his inclusion in Smash would make a lot of people happy. And that’s the cream of the crop amongst reasons to include a character. Smash is about celebration and people wanna celebrate Waluigi and Geno.

My personal special reason? I love his design as a small wooden puppet controlled by an other-worldly entity far away. I played SMRPG as a child and it was the very first RPG I ever played. He’s nostalgic for me and as such, holds that place in my heart and all that sentimental ****. If I had seen him for the first time yesterday, I can’t say I would have cared about him. But me as a child? Loved it. And it stuck.
 

Dee Dude

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What if Goku got a mii costume, opening the door to non gaming representation without taking a spot in the roster? How would y'all feel about that?
I’d hate it, I know people will argue that it’s just a costume, but that isn’t the issue.

The issue is the can of worms it’ll open and the conclusions people will jump to expecting cartoon and anime characters in the future.
 
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Honestly, I sometimes wonder 'who' or 'what' started the Geno hype.

He's a character from a one-off game that never got a true sequel, yet I remember all the way back on Nsider how much hype Geno had as far back as Brawl speculation.


And now he has a Mii Fighter costume in 4, with a legit(Dare I saw really good) chance of being playable.


Just, how the hell did we end up here after all these years?


I would seriously love someone to do a retrospective on the Geno fanbase if possible.

You will just have to take my word on this one as this is some old 2006/2007/2008 era smash speculation stuff that I do not think i could dig up if i tried but i'll explain my recollection of the geno hype train...

in the late 90s nintendo and square had a big falling out after the SNES and square started making games for the playstation instead of the N64 because they wanted to put their rpg games on CDs to hold cut scenes and more data etc... im sure you can find a better explination of this online somewhere but thats the short story.

well over time square and nintendo slowly started being "OK" with each other after the 64 era... there are some square games on gamecube etc... so while nintendo and square werent as close as they were in the SNES days they had been getting back together a bit by around 2006/2007 and many fans were awaiting a full on revival of old games and a return back to the glory days of nintendo and square (chrono trigger DS comes out in 2008 same year as brawl for instance). Mario and Luigi super star saga had been released in late 2003 and had a small cameo with Geno and mario RPG fans were still a very common part of the nintendo fan community as the game wasnt THAT old back then and getting geno (and mallow to a lesser extent) back into the mario franchise was a very real desire for many mario and nintendo fans.

during this time we get our first trailer for the new smash bros game "brawl" and who shows up in the trailer? snake. a third party non nintendo character. this was INSANE and along with "pit" being a revived retro character suddenly every old forgotten character and every third party character seemed plausible, the brawl hype was insane and peoples expectations back then were closer to what we are getting with smash ultimate than what we got with brawl to be honest.

So, and this is the take my word on it part where geno really falls into place, sakurai held a poll in japan (i beleive it was online but this is a very hard thing to dig up these days as it was a japanese poll from like 2005/2006 and was mostly just talked about around here) on that poll he asked fans who they wanted to see playable in smash bros brawl. the top three characters were: 1. sonic 2. megaman 3. geno.

yes geno was #3 right bellow megaman and sonic. like i said fans wanted a stronger relationship between nintendo and square, they wanted mario rpg characters to become a part of the mario universe again and we had been given reason to believe retro characters could be revived and third parties were happening. the timing for geno was perfect!

geno had a fan base already at that time for the reasons i listed above but once it was found out he had scored the #3 spot on the japanese poll people went nuts and assumed sakurai would deliver. it just kind of snowballed from there and tons of people jumped on the geno hype train. later on after brawl sakurai mentioned how he did like the idea of geno specifically mentioning a character with a gun for a hand is such a perfect smash character but he wasnt able to make it happen. fans held out hope and though it was always a long shot without square on board... geno fans have been really loyal to the character as its become more of a cause than just a character we want, this is the thing that will mark nintendo and square finally making up and returning to the glory days of the SNES.

obviously for smash 4 geno got a mii costume as part of the dlc when square DID become involved in smash and now he just seems so incredibly likely its amazing, the decade+ long journey for fans to demand geno get back into nintendo and be a part of smash bros has been a crazy one and it finally feels like its going to happen.
 
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Zachmac

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What if Goku got a mii costume, opening the door to non gaming representation without taking a spot in the roster? How would y'all feel about that?
I'll cancel my preorder and never touch any Nintendo game again. How dare they choose to represent Goku before adding my beloved [insert character here].
Are Miis even getting costumes this time?
Ah jeez I hope so. I actually had a lot of fun trying to make Miis look as much like certain characters as possible and trying to match up the best costumes and hats for them was a huge part of that.


While on the topic of costumes, I just realized that a Shovel Knight costume for the Mii Swordfighter is now within the realm of possibilities. It probably wouldn't even look too bad since the guy already has cartoonish proportions and wears a helmet all the time.
 
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blazefan519

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So we'll likely get a Nintendo direct focusing on the Online since they reiterated the fact that it's coming in the second half of September. Do you think they'll have a Smash segment and they'll talk about the Online there or do you think they'll reserve that to another Smash Direct which I'm sure we'll get one closer to release (either October or November)
 
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Did Emily Rogers said that KI is getting a new character if what she saying is true Hades anyone.
Viridi please!

What if Goku got a mii costume, opening the door to non gaming representation without taking a spot in the roster? How would y'all feel about that?
I'll throw away all of my Smash games and I will not buy Ultimate.
 
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My point is that Negan is a completely ****ing random addition in Tekken who doesn't fit at all. Meaning a fighting game with a non video game character isn't that ridiculous anymore.
Jason's a slasher movie character in a franchise about gore, that at least fits well
Tekken and Mortal Kombat feature original characters while the whole premise of smash is this huge gaming crossover with gaming icons. Adding a 4th party ruins that whole videogame part. Having a guest character in your typical fighting game is something completely different.

Goku is way too often mentioned in this thread then necessary.
 
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Honestly, I sometimes wonder 'who' or 'what' started the Geno hype.

He's a character from a one-off game that never got a true sequel, yet I remember all the way back on Nsider how much hype Geno had as far back as Brawl speculation.


And now he has a Mii Fighter costume in 4, with a legit(Dare I saw really good) chance of being playable.


Just, how the hell did we end up here after all these years?


I would seriously love someone to do a retrospective on the Geno fanbase if possible.
Geno is less deserving of a place in smash than Waluigi. He should never make it in.
 
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What exactly made Duck Hunt, R.O.B. Or Mr. Game and Watch special? None of those had any kind of fan base worth mentioning and they are as old as the cosmos.
Duck Hunt is a highly iconic Nintendo game. So many people remember and make jokes about how much they hate that laughing dog. He's an icon! Regular mainstream people and non-Nintendo fans even know the infamous laugh.

Game & Watch was a hugely important and successful product line that helped establish Nintendo as a gaming company. They released hundred of those things!

R. O. B. was also an important part of Nintendo history as he was used to promote the NES during the video game crash. A time when people were unsure if video games were worth getting.

All these characters are hugely important and represent something big to Nintendo. Honestly you should have used Ice Climber as an example as that wasn't a very popular NES game. I guess you could say it was important because it launched with the system... But so many other more famous and successful games did as well. I'm pretty sure Sakurai just chose them because he wanted a two in one fighter and thought they'd be a good fit.

So aside from Ice Climbers, a lot of retro characters represent something important in Nintendo history or are hugely iconic. Even more contemporary oddballs like Wii Fit Trainer represent an important part of recent Nintendo history.

Geno... I feel his importance to Nintendo or Mario has been overblown a bit. Not to say he's undeserving. His game was popular and he does represent a time when Square and Nintendo were friends but I don't think that comes close to those other characters mentioned. For the reasons I described above.
 

WaxPython

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People who argued K. Rool were owned by Rare are misinformed b
Actually they did own the rights to the Kremlings etc but gave them up to Nintendo when they got sold to Microsoft.

But if we were to get Geno in say, the next Direct.... then I'd have absolutely no ****ing clue who Sakurai would be saving to show off last that could top Ridley, K,Rool AND Geno.
Goku
 

NonSpecificGuy

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Ok, so, I need to point something out. So far there are only around 17 stages missing from the previous smash games in this game. Those include:
Sector Z and Planet Zebes from 64
Icicle Mountain, Mushroom Kingdom (Melee), Flat Zone, Mute City, and Pokefloats from Melee
Rumble Falls, Flat Zone 2, and Pictochat from Brawl
Rainbow Road and Pac-Maze from 3DS
Jungle Hijinx, Pyrosphere, Woolly World, Orbital Gate Assault, and Miiverse from Wii U

Let's go through those shall we.

Planet Zebes and Sector Z are both VERY similar to Brinstar and Corneria respectively so those being out isn't a big surprise.

Icicle Mountain is one of the weird Verticle strollers so seeing it gone is probably a good thing. Mushroom Kingdom is super similar to the 64 version. Mute City is similar to Port Town although there is evidence that supports Mute City returning despite that. Flat Zone IS actually confirmed, it was combined with Flat Zone 2 in For to make Flat Zone X. And last but not least Pokefloats, this is a weird stage but in a good way I think it's one of those weird fan favorites and it's baffling it isn't already announced.

Rumble Falls is another weird verticle scrolled and it's definitely the hardest to play on. Flat Zone 2 is Flat Zone X now so confirmed. And Pictochat, which just has different drawings than Pictochat 2.

Rainbow Road is a great stage and if really isn't coming it'll be sad BUT it's not super surprising since it would take a remaster. Pac-Maze being out is baffling, to the point that I want to use it as an example we're getting more stages but I won't.

Here's the good ones.
Jungle Hijinx... uh, no ****ing way, why? It's like the best DK stage in Wii U! Pyrosphere, again, why? Because Ridley is playable we can't get this badass stage back? Makes no sense. Woolly World, what the actual hell? This stage is perfect, it is one of the most unique Yoshi stages to ever appear but it's just not happening? Orbital Gate Assault, ok I know that every stage is going to have 8-Player battles on them and that could make this stage incredibly hectic, but Rainbow Cruise would do the same thing! Plenty of other stages, like Big Blue, would be even more hectic. So what's the good excuse for keeping the most gorgeous stage in Wii U out? Miiverse, ok, yeah that makes sense. Not surprised by that one at all.

So what's my point here? My point is the Wii U stages there's 5 of them. 5! That's more than any other game in the series. They're also the most easily portable. Cleaning them up a bit and sending them over is nothing compared to what's been done with the 3DS stages and that one is only missing 2! Melee is only missing 3! So, why then is Wii U missing 5? I don't think it is. I don't know why they haven't been shown but I think Jungle Hijinx, Pyroshpere, and Woolly world AT LEAST are happening. OGA, sure is a very complicated stage so it could be problematic but those 3? Nothings wrong with them. They could be easily done.

I say all this to say, I think some of us are taking the word "Total" too literally. I don't think they would lock themselves in a box on character reveals because of stages, and I dont think those 3 specific stages are cut. I just can not fathom why they would be. It makes no sense.

I know this post is a bit of a rant but I feel like spacing it out like this was really needed to give perspective.

And also, I forgot to mention the fact that there's "Mute City SNES" but not "Mute City" which makes it the only stage with that distinction.
 
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Ok, so, I need to point something out. So far there are only around 17 stages missing from the previous smash games in this game. Those include:
Sector Z and Planet Zebes from 64
Icicle Mountain, Mushroom Kingdom (Melee), Flat Zone, Mute City, and Pokefloats from Melee
Rumble Falls, Flat Zone 2, and Pictochat from Brawl
Rainbow Road and Pac-Maze from 3DS
Jungle Hijinx, Pyrosphere, Woolly World, Orbital Gate Assault, and Miiverse from Wii U

Let's go through those shall we.

Planet Zebes and Sector Z are both VERY similar to Brinstar and Corneria respectively so those being out isn't a big surprise.

Icicle Mountain is one of the weird Verticle strollers so seeing it gone is probably a good thing. Mushroom Kingdom is super similar to the 64 version. Mute City is similar to Port Town although there is evidence that supports Mute City returning despite that. Flat Zone IS actually confirmed, it was combined with Flat Zone 2 in For to make Flat Zone X. And last but not least Pokefloats, this is a weird stage but in a good way I think it's one of those weird fan favorites and it's baffling it isn't already announced.

Rumble Falls is another weird verticle scrolled and it's definitely the hardest to play on. Flat Zone 2 is Flat Zone X now so confirmed. And Pictochat, which just has different drawings than Pictochat 2.

Rainbow Road is a great stage and if really isn't coming it'll be sad BUT it's not super surprising since it would take a remaster. Pac-Maze being out is baffling, to the point that I want to use it as an example we're getting more stages but I won't.

Here's the good ones.
Jungle Hijinx... uh, no ****ing way, why? It's like the best DK stage in Wii U! Pyrosphere, again, why? Because Ridley is playable we can't get this badass stage back? Makes no sense. Woolly World, what the actual hell? This stage is perfect, it is one of the most unique Yoshi stages to ever appear but it's just not happening? Orbital Gate Assault, ok I know that every stage is going to have 8-Player battles on them and that could make this stage incredibly hectic, but Rainbow Cruise would do the same thing! Plenty of other stages, like Big Blue, would be even more hectic. So what's the good excuse for keeping the most gorgeous stage in Wii U out? Miiverse, ok, yeah that makes sense. Not surprised by that one at all.

So what's my point here? My point is the Wii U stages there's 5 of them. 5! That's more than any other game in the series. They're also the most easily portable. Cleaning them up a bit and sending them over is nothing compared to what's been done with the 3DS stages and that one is only missing 2! Melee is only missing 3! So, why then is Wii U missing 5? I don't think it is. I don't know why they haven't been shown but I think Jungle Hijinx, Pyroshpere, and Woolly world AT LEAST are happening. OGA, sure is a very complicated stage so it could be problematic but those 3? Nothings wrong with them. They could be easily done.

I say all this to say, I think some of us are taking the word "Total" too literally. I don't think they would lock themselves in a box on character reveals be abuse of stages, and I dont think those 3 specific stages are cut. I just can not fathom why they would be. It makes no sense.
Hijinx is easy.

Stage morph while someone's on the background, what happens to them? Sure the game could force them into the foreground, but it'd probably be easier to just not import it all together.
 
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I would like to see the source on Emily Rogers claiming a Kid Icarus character is coming too, because if she has, I believe her. Emily definitely seems to be “in the know” on Smash stuff, even if she’s been tight-lipped on it up until now. These are a couple of things she said prior to E3:

626D9C14-B3E8-4C88-B3D3-E28A371F9341.jpeg


So she seems to have gotten some information from the same sources that were reaching out to the likes of Vergeben. I can totally see a Palutena Echo Fighter, (probably Medusa,) making it into the game.
 

Nethermoosen

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Duck Hunt is a highly iconic Nintendo game. So many people remember and make jokes about how much they hate that laughing dog. He's an icon! Regular mainstream people and non-Nintendo fans even know the infamous laugh.

Game & Watch was a hugely important and successful product line that helped establish Nintendo as a gaming company. They released hundred of those things!

R. O. B. was also an important part of Nintendo history as he was used to promote the NES during the video game crash. A time when people were unsure if video games were worth getting.

All these characters are hugely important and represent something big to Nintendo. Honestly you should have used Ice Climber as an example as that wasn't a very popular NES game. I guess you could say it was important because it launched with the system... But so many other more famous and successful games did as well. I'm pretty sure Sakurai just chose them because he wanted a two in one fighter and thought they'd be a good fit.

So aside from Ice Climbers, a lot of retro characters represent something important in Nintendo history or are hugely iconic. Even more contemporary oddballs like Wii Fit Trainer represent an important part of recent Nintendo history.

Geno... I feel his importance to Nintendo or Mario has been overblown a bit. Not to say he's undeserving. His game was popular and he does represent a time when Square and Nintendo were friends but I don't think that comes close to those other characters mentioned. For the reasons I described above.
Fair points. But I wasn’t in any way trying to dismiss their importance to Nintendo. I was only answering a question that I feel wasn’t warranted.

Mostly because people are trying to come up with this logic about who gets included rather than the adorarion the players have for characters.

Their are a lot of naysayers for reasons that are just confusing when it comes to gaming. Sure, those retro characters made Nintendo the money to continue, but they weren’t “relevant” during their debut in smash. That didn’t keep people from adoring them anyways. And that’s all that matters in the end.

Geno, K. Rool, whoever. They don’t need to be the leaders in the gaming world today. They don’t need any huge significance beyond being desired and no one needs to deny the hopes of equally paying players because of the unwritten “laws and regulations of Smash.”

Jumping in and trying to crush the hopes of someone else is not only pointless, it’s kind of demeaning. It feels like so many folks demand we come up with strong logical arguments for our adoration. Adoration is an emotion and people want us to rationalize it? That’s all I was making points about anyways.

And I know you aren’t saying these things. I’m just explaining myself.
 
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Pac-Maze being out is baffling, to the point that I want to use it as an example we're getting more stages but I won't.
Many people forget the stage had a 3DS-exclusive gimmick where the power pellets made only the character who ontained them able to defeat the ghosts, (and as a result, they only displayed as blue on that character’s screen.)

Jungle Hijinx... uh, no ****ing way, why? It's like the best DK stage in Wii U!
Stage Morph. Imagine what would happen if it were to trigger while someone was in the background of the stage.

That said, you got me on Rainbow Road/Wooly World/Orbital Gate Assault. Those three stages alone are not enough to convince me that we’re getting more unrevealed stages, though. I’m pretty confident that we’re launching with 103 and the “Monster Hunter stage” in the direct is only for a single-player Rathalos boss fight. This also probably means that there aren’t any more 3rd parties in the base roster, (other than potentially Geno,) since every 3rd party so far has an accompanying home stage.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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Many people forget the stage had a 3DS-exclusive gimmick where the power pellets made only the character who ontained them able to defeat the ghosts, (and as a result, they only displayed as blue on that character’s screen.)



Stage Morph. Imagine what would happen if it were to trigger while someone was in the background of the stage.

That said, you got me on Rainbow Road/Wooly World/Orbital Gate Assault. Those three stages alone are not enough to convince me that we’re getting more unrevealed stages, though. I’m pretty confident that we’re launching with 103 and the “Monster Hunter stage” in the direct is only for a single-player Rathalos boss fight. This also probably means that there aren’t any more 3rd parties in the base roster, (other than potentially Geno,) since every 3rd party so far has an accompanying home stage.
Golden Plains had a very similar gimmick and was also 3DS exclusive so Pacmaze doesn't really have an excuse
Actually they did own the rights to the Kremlings etc but gave them up to Nintendo when they got sold to Microsoft.



Goku
Imma need a source, because Kremlings and stuff are Donkey Kong characters, and Microsoft thought they were getting Donkey Kong along the rest of Rare so that doesn't make sense
 
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Golden Plains had a very similar gimmick and was also 3DS exclusive so Pacmaze doesn't really have an excuse
Golden Plains just had an individual coin display. That’s an easy fix; add one coin display next to every playable character’s profile at the bottom of the screen. However, there isn’t really any way to make the ghosts appear blue to the person who picks up a power pellet and normal to everyone else unless multiple screens are involved.
 

Nethermoosen

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Oh! Had a thought on the “Custom Balance” option for Smash.

Remember the custom equipment that changed character properties like weight, power and speed?

I’m guessing they are scrapping those and letting you choose to adjust those setting manually like on a scale, rather than having to collect a bunch of equipment.

Just like the equipment, every choice will have drawbacks. Higher power may decrease your weight or speed. Higher speed may decrease your power or weight.(I can’t remember the specific trade-offs in 4).
 

Guybrush20X6

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Oh! Had a thought on the “Custom Balance” option for Smash.

Remember the custom equipment that changed character properties like weight, power and speed?

I’m guessing they are scrapping those and letting you choose to adjust those setting manually like on a scale, rather than having to collect a bunch of equipment.

Just like the equipment, every choice will have drawbacks. Higher power may decrease your weight or speed. Higher speed may decrease your power or weight.(I can’t remember the specific trade-offs in 4).
It went Attack > Defence > Speed > Attack where increasing the left one reduces the one on the right.

As for a Kid Icarus character, I could see it being Medusa easily.

Not only is she Dark Palutena, Palutena has unused animations for her other custom moves which Medusa could make use of. Have it so you pick Medusa if you said nuts to Palutena's default defensive options in Smash 4.
 

Dee Dude

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Aw geez, do we really need another KI character? Especially after the massive amount of attention Uprising’s representation got in 4? Granted Medusa, Hades, or anyone is a better pick than Dark Pit but still tho.
I wouldn’t be angry if a 4th KI character got in, just annoyed.

On a different subject, I do hope they eventually bring the missing stages for DLC.
 
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WaxPython

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and Microsoft thought they were getting Donkey Kong along the rest of Rare so that doesn't make sense
Nah that a myth. Microsoft aren't so stupid, their legal team would have made them very aware of what IPs they're getting.

The myth circulated because one executive said it as a joke after looking at DKC posters.

Rare kept making donkey king and banjo and Kazooie games after being bought out by Microsoft. Like the Banjo and GBA game and the Diddy Kong racing game which has their own IPs.

I assume after they stopped working with Nintendo they gave full rights to donkey kong to Nintendo for use.
 

Zeox

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Aw geez, do we really need another KI character? Especially after the massive amount of attention Uprising’s representation got in 4? Granted Medusa, Hades, or anyone is a better pick than Dark Pit but still tho.
I wouldn’t be angry if a 4th KI character got in, just annoyed.

On a different subject, I do hope they eventually bring the missing stages for DLC.
We got a 7 Fire Emblem Character, so I can see a 4th KI character.
But honestly I would rather have new characters for franchises with only 2 or 1 reps...
 
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If it's a new KI character that's going to be an Echo, Medusa's the only one that makes sense.


Viridi's hitboxes would be smaller than Palutena since she's shorter, likewise, you could probably slap a new head on the Palutena model and get Medusa out of it.
And with Ridley and K. Rool I'm sure Sakurai would want to add KI's villain as well.
 
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