Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Capybara Gaming]

Ugh...
Guys, I know it won't happen... but at the same time I'm worried. I have a bad gut feeling. I know it's "Impossible". Or at least it should be.

But I have a feeling that Goku IS going to be in the game. Please make me feel better. Explain to me that Sakurai is still sticking to his "Must be a video game character" rule. Please.

That will literally never happen

In Sakurai's own words he says "Smash is a celebration of Japanese gaming."

 

[MainJPW]

Ugh...
Guys, I know it won't happen... but at the same time I'm worried. I have a bad gut feeling. I know it's "Impossible". Or at least it should be.

But I have a feeling that Goku IS going to be in the game. Please make me feel better. Explain to me that Sakurai is still sticking to his "Must be a video game character" rule. Please.

Goku is a manga character. IT WON'T HAPPEN! DO YOU HEAR ME, SOLDIER!?

 

[Mc.Rad]

Ugh...
Guys, I know it won't happen... but at the same time I'm worried. I have a bad gut feeling. I know it's "Impossible". Or at least it should be.

But I have a feeling that Goku IS going to be in the game. Please make me feel better. Explain to me that Sakurai is still sticking to his "Must be a video game character" rule. Please.

Silly Goku is in the game already!

They just made him a blue hedgehog and called him Sonic

 

[Will]

Ugh...
Guys, I know it won't happen... but at the same time I'm worried. I have a bad gut feeling. I know it's "Impossible". Or at least it should be.

But I have a feeling that Goku IS going to be in the game. Please make me feel better. Explain to me that Sakurai is still sticking to his "Must be a video game character" rule. Please.

Sean Schemmel said he has no idea why he's mentioned as the voice of Goku on IMDB. I mean, why would they go without the dubbed versio-



ah ****

 

[Icedragonadam]

Don't know if this has been mentioned but Nintendo Switch Online just confirmed to be coming in the second half of September. Expect a Nintendo Direct in the first half of September detailing Smash Online and we could also potentially get a newcomer reveal.

I'm hoping the direct is the 24th.

 

[Knight Dude]

Ugh...
Guys, I know it won't happen... but at the same time I'm worried. I have a bad gut feeling. I know it's "Impossible". Or at least it should be.

But I have a feeling that Goku IS going to be in the game. Please make me feel better. Explain to me that Sakurai is still sticking to his "Must be a video game character" rule. Please.

Just because Negan is in Tekken doesn't mean Goku will get in Smash. And unlike the "only one character per 3rd Party series" thing, Sakurai actually made a statement about sticking to video game stuff.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Here

He didn't outright say it was K. Rool (and honestly, I'm really glad he didn't because the global reactions to his reveal have been the stuff of legends) but he knew it was going off of these posts from last week. The Heroes vs Villains theme he's been talking about isn't actually for the game, but used for an upcoming trailer (so his source did or saw the storyboarding/cinematic scripts). So he also knew about the direct and that K. Rool was coming. Remember that conflict with Verg from earlier in the week about "No DK newcomers". This is why he disagreed.

What we basically got at the beginning of K. Rool's reveal was Heroes vs Villains. Granted, it was called "The Rivals", but it still had a Heroes vs Villains theme, and if the source worked in storyboarding, he likely had no info as to what the cinematic was going to be called.

So basically, when we've been thinking about the Heroes vs Villains theme with Dark Samus, Ridley, K. Rool, Dracula and Rathalos, they aren't actually part of some overarching theme for a story mode like we thought. It could still happen, of course, since anything is possible at this point.

Aaaaaaand that's what killed him.

A dead giveaway like "cutscene scripts," about "Heroes vs. Villains" not relating to story mode is easily traceable within the company. This isn't footage of the trailer, but a script of the events made before production. His source likely got smoked out due to the fact that he couldn't keep his mouth shut.

>loz18 right now

 

[Wambo]

I don't care how foolish it is, I'm holding out for that 8% chance Protoman could be Mega Man's echo. And they show up in each other's Final Smash. Fox and Falco are kind of implied to do something similar anyway.

But that'd be some kind of spacial anomaly-type **** if Mega Man and Protoman were fighting each other.

Protoman: Prepare yourself for our combined blast!
Also Protoman: Wait, dude, don't

 

[Will]

But that'd be some kind of spacial anomaly-type **** if Mega Man and Protoman were fighting each other.

Protoman: Prepare yourself for our combined blast!
Also Protoman: Wait, dude, don't

Watch you say that and then turn out that Chrom is still in Robin's final smash and you can kill Chrom with another Chrom

 

[Originality]

But that'd be some kind of spacial anomaly-type **** if Mega Man and Protoman were fighting each other.

Protoman: Prepare yourself for our combined blast!
Also Protoman: Wait, dude, don't

Don't worry, when Protomans fighting, Alfonzo replaces Protoman in Megamans Final Smash

 

[Wambo]

Watch you say that and then turn out that Chrom is still in Robin's final smash and you can kill Chrom with another Chrom

Chrom: Finally, I have my chance in Smash!
Chrom teleporting in from Smash 4: OH NO YOU DON'T

 

[SvartWolf]

choose your fighter, but maybe through unlocks you get to choose from a bunch of assist trophies to be your "buddy" character that follows you around and attacks with you.

Honestly anything really, tbh I'm hoping for some event matches

I also think this is very likely... there is ton that they can do with interactuable assist trophies. be your partners or enemies in classic, Specific partners or enemies on event mode, sub bosses on multiman melee, sub bosses on eventual adventure mode... etc etc etc...

Ryu has no competition at Tecmo. The entirety of Sonic the Hedgehog does what Luigi did to Mario in Melee Adventure mode back at Shinobi.

also ryu is an NES boi

Well, unless somehow Hyrule Warriors counts as competition(it doesn't, really).

but... but muh alchemists!

Just Kidding.. i now is a super niche series DX...

Honestly I'm not going to lie about that...

That will go directly in front of what I just said...

I think we may have made the hypest reveal trailer

If Isabelle is not an echo and have a fighter, and Black Bull is an echo...
The trailer needs to start with this scene, and after that pawnch, everything goes quiet.. and Isabelle is tasked to clean the aftermath mess... would be PERFECT!

Hey...

Maybe this means that Kumatora could still be a thing...

Worst part is how easy she would been an echo... in fact Lucas is more an echo of her...

 

[Blargg888]

Chrom is a bastardised ensemble of Ike and Roy.
Luigi is just an ensemble of Mario and Pikachu (and Dr. Mario too considering he has Mario's old down B).
By this logic, they should both be echoes.

Let's take a look at Luigi as a character for a second. I'll address each character mentioned along the way:

"Why isn't Luigi an echo of Dr. Mario?"
Because Luigi has always had that down B, even in Smash 64. Mario used to have that Down B too. Dr. Mario has nothing to do with it.

"Why isn't Luigi an echo of Pikachu?"
First, Chrom isn't an Echo of Roy and Ike, he's just an echo of Roy that pulls things from Ike.
Second, Green Missile and Skull Bash may be similar conceptually, but they're not the same.
Skull bash charges up and auto-releases on full charge, going far and hitting hard.
Green Missile charges up but can be cancelled by charging it long enough. It deals fire damage, doesn't have the same animation, and can misfire, which is something unique to Luigi alone.
Also, it's only one move. I don't think a character that shares a single move with another makes them Echoes.

"Why isn't Luigi an Echo of Mario?"
Two reasons.
1. Different moves.
Luigi has many moves that are completely different from Mario, and unique to him alone. Forward Air, Down Air, Side Smash, Up Tilt, Down Tilt, Jab, and Dash Attack. Some of these differences have existed even since Smash 64.
As for his specials, those are sort of a Lucas/Falco situation. They're fundamentally the same, but are changed drastically in ways that basically make them completely different moves. Luigi's fireball doesn't adhere to gravity, his jump punch goes straight up and has completely different hitboxes, and he retains his original Down B whereas Mario's has changed. It doesn't matter if Dr. mario has a similar Down B, Luigi had his first, a whole game before Doc was even conceived.

Echo fighters' specials tend to have very minor changes, mostly in minor animation or knockback/hit mechanics.
2. Different attributes.
Luigi actually retains his differing attributes from the Mario games in Smash.
He jumps higher than Mario, and he has less traction. Interestingly, he also runs slower than Mario, despite the fact that in Mario games, he's supposed to be faster than Mario. He's taller by a noticeable margin, and he is capable of crawling, whereas Mario is not. he also can't wall jump even though Mario can.
As far as we can tell, Echo fighters seem to perfectly match their bases' movement and physical attributes. Lucina may be shorter than Marth, but it's so negligible that it doesn't really matter.

All this is what makes Luigi his own character.

TL;DR; He's too unique to be an Echo Fighter, something that applies to all of our current clones and semi-clones.

Clones - as we know them - exist on a spectrum, it's not black and white like so many people think it is.

I know this might be a little... extensive, but I really like Luigi, so I decided to go all out.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Watch you say that and then turn out that Chrom is still in Robin's final smash and you can kill Chrom with another Chrom

That would be quite the Chromundrum.

 

[Makai Wars]

Luigi is just an ensemble of Mario and Pikachu (and Dr. Mario too considering he has Mario's old down B).

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Found what I was talking about:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/76696004?page=12
Bottom of the page after you click the link.

I think that's what most people were referring to unless there's something else he said in regards to the K. Rool trailer. Doesn't really help his credibility in any way imo.

Aw, I mean, this is kind of true but I feel like this is way, way to vague to help his credibility, he said "hinting to K. Rool" not "the trailer in which K. Rool shows up. When someone says "he had the storyboards of the K. Rool cutscene" I'm expecting him to say straight up there was a fakeout and a clash over the sunset, not vague half truths that feel more like lucky coincidental guesses rather than accurate, to the point leaks.

 

[Knight Dude]

But that'd be some kind of spacial anomaly-type **** if Mega Man and Protoman were fighting each other.

Protoman: Prepare yourself for our combined blast!
Also Protoman: Wait, dude, don't

Fighting games do that all the time.

Can't wait for Android 17 to help Android 18 beat up Android 17. Which is exactly what I'm asking for with Mega Man and Protoman.

Or Noob Saibot getting Smoke to help him beat up Smoke.

That would be quite the Chromundrum.

Alright, take your like and go.

 

[Mc.Rad]

???????????????????????????????????????????????

Aw, I mean, this is kind of true but I feel like this is way, way to vague to help his credibility, he said "hinting to K. Rool" not "the trailer in which K. Rool shows up. When someone says "he had the storyboards of the K. Rool cutscene" I'm expecting him to say straight up there was a fakeout and a clash over the sunset, not vague half truths that feel more like lucky coincidental guesses rather than accurate, to the point leaks.

Yeah that kinda what gets me. Especially since he himself has stated that sometimes he just says stuff that is pure speculation on his part. So... I have no real ideal if the whole trailer thing was intentional or not, but he's under fire

 

[Will]

Chrom: Finally, I have my chance in Smash!
Chrom teleporting in from Smash 4: OH NO YOU DON'T

"Robin, what have you done? You changed the future!! You've created a time paradox!"

 

[N3ON]

I don't think the Smash 4 ones were. We had characters playing Kart racing, the invitation trailer, and characters just showcasing their moveset or the idea of them. The only trailers that felt like they were tied into something were Robin's, Shulks, and Palutena's. The latter having the obvious issue of the stylistic difference.

So what are your parameters? Odd character combinations? We had Kirby in Mario Kart, Little Mac fighting Samus, Pokemon squaring off against Mario, Samus, Olimar, etc. instead of each other, Pit and Link fighting, Captain Falcon in Fire Emblem, Shulk squaring off against Bowser, Link and Marth, Bowser Jr fighting a bevy of series... makes no more and no less sense than these trailers. Samus featured prominently in Ridley's trailer but Mega Man and Mario were there to build tension. Who else are you going to have, Zero Suit Samus? That doesn't make sense. Luigi in some haunted area is par for the course, and Dedede being a jerkass is the personality Sakurai has created for him.

Subspace like introductions? Literally the characters have the same splash screen as Smash 4. I'm not quite sure what screams story mode here more than Smash 4 trailers. "Showcasing their moveset or the idea of them" is something that can describe basically any characters' fighting game trailer.

 

[Wambo]

I love how everyone is saying that "______ is just an ensemble of ______" when you're forgetting that everyone is literally just an ensemble of Little Mac.

 

[Will]

I love how everyone is saying that "______ is just an ensemble of ______" when you're forgetting that everyone is literally just an ensemble of Little Mac.

That's how they present the characters.
"So what makes this character more special than Little Mac?"
"They have a recovery that's decent."

 

[Shroob]

So the next Direct will probably be in first half September to go over Nintendo's online functions?

Awesome.

And we still won't have our new emotes by then.

 

[Makai Wars]

So the next Direct will probably be in first half September to go over Nintendo's online functions?

Awesome.

And we still won't have our new emotes by then.

LGPE comes out shortly after that, it'd be a good time to reveal the Pokemon newcomer.
Still can't believe Mimikyu got stuck in a Pokeball like that, not knowing if we're getting Decidueye or Incineraor is honest to goodness eating me up, that's the only newcomer debacle I'm actually invested in.

 

[Will]

So the next Direct will probably be in first half September to go over Nintendo's online functions?

Awesome.

And we still won't have our new emotes by then.

I'd be okay without the new emotes, it might make the servers crash even worse.

 

[Knight Dude]

I love how everyone is saying that "______ is just an ensemble of ______" when you're forgetting that everyone is literally just an ensemble of Little Mac.

By George...All those Counters...I-it makes perfect sense now. My eyes are finally opened.

 

[XLIFE]

So what are your parameters? Odd character combinations? We had Kirby in Mario Kart, Little Mac fighting Samus, Pokemon squaring off against Mario, Samus, Olimar, etc. instead of each other, Pit and Link fighting, Captain Falcon in Fire Emblem, Shulk squaring off against Bowser, Link and Marth, Bowser Jr fighting a bevy of series... makes no more and no less sense than these trailers. Samus featured prominently in Ridley's trailer but Mega Man and Mario were there to build tension. Who else are you going to have, Zero Suit Samus? That doesn't make sense. Luigi in some haunted area is par for the course, and Dedede being a jerkass is the personality Sakurai has created for him.

Subspace like introductions? Literally the characters have the same splash screen as Smash 4. I'm not quite sure what screams story mode here more than Smash 4 trailers. "Showcasing their moveset or the idea of them" is something that can describe basically any characters' fighting game trailer.

I told you why those weren't 'within parameters'. They're too random and ambiguous to fit into any actual scenario in a story mode. Would you see Link, Mario, etc watching Yoga on a TV? Characters Kart racing to meet up with a character that joins them? Mac just randomly training with no context? How about Mega Man just conveniently throwing out his entire moveset against other characters? The ones that could rationally be built into a story I acknowledged, the rest just never were.

With the Ridley, Simon, and K Rool trailer, we have a very clear setting with characters very evidently doing something within those settings. Again, I don't think it's like an assured thing, I just think they seem more manageable within a story mode.

 

[Lady Byakugan]

But that'd be some kind of spacial anomaly-type **** if Mega Man and Protoman were fighting each other.

Protoman: Prepare yourself for our combined blast!
Also Protoman: Wait, dude, don't

Zero Suit's Final Smash has her become Power Suit Samus.

That said, I don't expect protoman, since Sakurai likely wouldn't have even put him into MM final smash if he was gonna be his own character

 

[Dragoncharystary]

Aaaaaaand that's what killed him.

A dead giveaway like "cutscene scripts," about "Heroes vs. Villains" not relating to story mode is easily traceable within the company. This isn't footage of the trailer, but a script of the events made before production. His source likely got smoked out due to the fact that he couldn't keep his mouth shut.

>loz18 right now

Hmm, so maybe it wasn't Skull Kid that got him ratted out then, and maybe Skull Kid actually IS coming to the game?

I'm sorry, I just want Skull Kid.

 

[Shroob]

LGPE comes out shortly after that, it'd be a good time to reveal the Pokemon newcomer.
Still can't believe Mimikyu got stuck in a Pokeball like that, not knowing if we're getting Decidueye or Incineraor is honest to goodness eating me up, that's the only newcomer debacle I'm actually invested in.

I thought LGPE came out in November?

 

[Zinith]

I love how everyone is saying that "______ is just an ensemble of ______" when you're forgetting that everyone is literally just an ensemble of Little Mac.

My boi is essentially a reverse Little Mac.

 

[MysticKnives]

Chrom: Finally, I have my chance in Smash!
Chrom teleporting in from Smash 4: OH NO YOU DON'T

After his defeat at the hands of Falcon, Falcon and Lucina actually grew closer and the blue haired warrior convinced the gatekeeper to let daddy dearest join the fray

 

[Radical Bones]

I still can't believe how good Dark Samus looks even though it's an Echo. I'm so excited to play as it.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Wait, but I'm still confused on what the original poster was talking about. The Echo Fighters are based off the main fighter for sure, but what sets them apart are usually visuals, animations, sometimes frame-data, sometimes move properties, and sometimes attributes. So far all the original clone characters are now different enough to be their own character and the recent Echo Fighters have different attributes and animations. Lucina doesn't have tipper and Dark Pit has a different arrow property (just to name of a couple). I'm not sure how Smash Ultimate is treating it's Echo Fighters, but if it's anything like Smash 4, then they are bound to be similar but with different properties. I mean Chrom is already different enough from Roy! XD

I'm actually confused too on what Echoes are beyond 1:1 proportions. It's just a user saying "Clones are now called Echoes", despite that still not being the case. Clones are still a thing separate from Echoes. But yes, we aren't completely sure on what the key differences are. So be prepared to be confused on how it works for now. Sakurai might be able to explain more.

Here's a good way to put it; While Sakurai did call all 3 a clone in Smash 4, he calls Dark Pit and Lucina Echo Fighters in Ultimate, and Dr. Mario has his own slot. He still pulls heavily from Mario. He might now be a semi-clone(a term used to say they deviate very heavily from their source, where a clone is mostly the same source with smaller changes).

 

[Will]

I'm curious to how Skull Kid would work in the eyes of papa sakurai. Becuase cmon, were you guys really expecting K. Rool of all people to have a counter?

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I'm curious to how Skull Kid would work in the eyes of papa sakurai. Becuase cmon, were you guys really expecting K. Rool of all people to have a counter?

No, but it's not completely out there. Dude fakes his death and then attacks you in one of his boss fights. I think someone suggested something similar for K. Rool...as an assist trophy.

 

[MSmariosonic]

Ugh...
Guys, I know it won't happen... but at the same time I'm worried. I have a bad gut feeling. I know it's "Impossible". Or at least it should be.

But I have a feeling that Goku IS going to be in the game. Please make me feel better. Explain to me that Sakurai is still sticking to his "Must be a video game character" rule. Please.

Spoiler: donte

Yeah i don't see it happening at all

 

[Blargg888]

Huh, I was looking at information about Simon and Richter, and TIL, Richter and Robin have the same voice actor.

I'm adding a new versus name to my list.

:ultrobin vs Richter = Super David Vincent Bros.

 

[Will]

No, but it's not completely out there. Dude fakes his death and then attacks you in one of his boss fights. I think someone suggested something similar for K. Rool...as an assist trophy.

Maybe. I just hope his counter isn't as ridonkulous as Corrin's.

 

[Knight Dude]

I'm curious to how Skull Kid would work in the eyes of papa sakurai. Becuase cmon, were you guys really expecting K. Rool of all people to have a counter?

He does an EWGF with the Ocarina in his hand. Maybe give him Zangief's/Jack's Cossack Kicks since he dances around a bit in most games he's in.

 

[Noipoi]

LGPE comes out shortly after that, it'd be a good time to reveal the Pokemon newcomer.
Still can't believe Mimikyu got stuck in a Pokeball like that, not knowing if we're getting Decidueye or Incineraor is honest to goodness eating me up, that's the only newcomer debacle I'm actually invested in.

LGPE releases in November, actually.

And yeah, i'm way too invested on who the Pokemon newcomer will be if we even get one.
Personally I want Incineroar, but i'm also cool with Buzzwole, Lycanroc, Zeraora, basically anyone except Decidueye.
I don't dislike Decidueye, and if it got in i'd be cool with it, but Decidueye's already in Pokken. Let another Pokemon have some time to shine, stop hogging the spotlight .