Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[TurboLink]

Corrin's playstyle is as ****ty as its character in Fates.

 

[A Distant Demon]

On the subject of Bayonetta, I wonder what it means when it come to third parties and their criteria for Smash.

She's far from iconic and her games don't sell as much as the other third party inclusions,

well personally i thi. . .

I think the Smash Ballot and Kamiya's relationship with Sakurai makes it a special case for now.

goddammit why pose a question only to give the correct answer!


Yeah the ballot and the fact SEGA already works with ninty/sakurai is 99% of the reason she is in smash

 

[Autumn ♫]

Corrin's playstyle is as ****ty as its character in Fates.

I think you overestimate Corrin in Fates too much. Corrin had quite a few flaws, not a terrible character, but still a few flaws, probably partially due to being a MU and the main character along with having 3 separate paths.

 

[TurboLink]

I think you overestimate Corrin in Fates too much. Corrin had quite a few flaws, not a terrible character, but still a few flaws, probably partially due to being a MU and the main character along with having 3 separate paths.

Its personality is also bland/generic. It doesn't help that so many people suck up to it either.

 

[N3ON]

Corrin was a now or never, if they didn't get in this time they'd have missed the boat. This clearly could've helped promote Fates and contribute to its success, so why not capitalize on that perfect opportunity? Smash practically selling Fire Emblem games is a tradition at this point.

Yeah, but who cares if they'd have missed the boat? Imagine if Corrin hadn't been included, would people be bemoaning his absence? No, no one was clamouring for it in the first place. Corrin wasn't one of those characters like Lyn or Isaac or Krystal or Goroh or Starfy or any number of Zelda characters who (probably) missed the boat that people actually wanted.

And honestly that whole promotion thing could apply to any character with an upcoming game, it doesn't really make Corrin special. In fact imo it makes him less special considering he wasn't really even included due to his character.

Plus if anything I think Star Fox Zero was in more need of promotion than Fates. :/

It was a good move. It paid off. Saying this as someone who loves DKC and hates Corrin. (But I always thought DK and Diddy are plenty good enough, so whatever.)

I guess... Awakening sold well prior to Smash's influence, and Fates was already out in Japan. I've no doubt Corrin is the worst-selling DLC character... and Fates was already... fated to sell pretty well. It was more like riding on coattails than making a gamble that paid off.

Honestly I'm sure the fanbase would've much preferred a character people actually wanted (whether that be a DK character or another with equally little correlation) rather than a promotional character from a (more than) adequately represented series. Even when he was revealed the reaction was pretty tepid.

 

[Lord-Zero]

KniteBlargh : I hope not. Alm as a Roy clone or Marth clone wouldn't make sense at all. I'd rather not have him at all.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I mean, Sakurai wanted from the beginning to make a DLC fighter from an upcoming game. Taken that into account, there's not a whole lot of character to pick from. Inklings would've been a gamble. Splatoon was only half a year from releasing by the time DLC was being developed, and it would've been hard to develop a character from a new, unproven IP. He had to keep a real close eye on the development of Splatoon. Rhythm Heaven was going to have a character from the start, but who knows what happened. The star of SF Zero is already in the game (Wolf's not new either), whereas Corrin's a main character in a game from a franchise whose popularity is at an all time high, on top of having enough time to develop the character before the game is out in the west. He himself said it was a strategic choice he and his team analyzed. Intelligent System were also more than willing to share concepts of the character to help with the development.

I really don't think the DLC didn't help Fates sales even if it didn't need it, or that Corrin's the worst selling DLC character at all lol. The character got in, and it turns out, hey, they're pretty successful! The only character they ended up getting in were Inklings, but Corrin was the far safer choice. It's not like the whole thing is unprecedented anywho. (Roy) It wasn't Corrin or [your wanted character], it was Corrin, or Inklings, or nobody else.

 

[Burruni]

It wasn't Corrin or [your wanted character], it was Corrin, or Inklings, or nobody else.

(For a fair bit of people this was one in the same.)

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Plus if anything I think Star Fox Zero was in more need of promotion than Fates. :/

This, so much this. Of course some sheeple defending Wolf's cut argued that trying to promote Zero would've been a waste of resources since SF hadn't been a major seller since 64 but eh... :/

 

[N3ON]

I mean, Sakurai wanted from the beginning to make a DLC fighter from an upcoming game. Taken that into account, there's not a whole lot of character to pick from. Inklings would've been a gamble. Splatoon was only half a year from releasing by the time DLC was being developed, and it would've been hard to develop a character from a new, unproven IP. He had to keep a real close eye on the development of Splatoon. Rhythm Heaven was going to have a character from the start, but who knows what happened. The star of SF Zero is already in the game (Wolf's not new either), whereas Corrin's a main character in a game from a franchise whose popularity is at an all time high, on top of having enough time to develop the character before the game is out in the west. He himself said it was a strategic choice he and his team analyzed. Intelligent System were also more than willing to share concepts of the character to help with the development.

If Nintendo wanted a relevant promotional inclusion they were certainly not limited to Corrin. Just off the top of my head Isabelle and Elma were both also featured in games around that time, were heavily promoted with the game, actually had prior popularity, and were not from bloated series. And no, Wolf is not the protagonist of SF0, nor a new character, but those are relatively arbitrary qualifiers considering, as long as he would've driven attention to SF0, which he would've, he still could've easily functioned as promotion.

And also, your Splatoon reasoning is a bit illogical. First, clearly not all DLC characters were chosen at the same time, or from the beginning. It seems obvious to me that at the beginning Sakurai didn't even know how far they'd go with the DLC. And the ballot didn't even open until at least Mewtwo, Lucas, Roy and Ryu were decided upon. So it doesn't matter that Splatoon wasn't out then. Also Sakurai has developed several characters from unreleased games, fwiw. Next, Splatoon really only would've been a "risk" until... June 2015. After that it was clear the game was a massive success, at least for standards of a new IP on the Wii U. So if all DLC characters had been chosen prior to that, I'd agree. But there would still be six months until the final DLC characters were even revealed, and a further two until they were released, which, going by the schedule for the previous DLC characters, was ample time to complete Inklings as characters, should they have been inclined to include them. However, I reckon the reason they weren't chosen (when they probably also placed very highly on the ballot and would've been exceedingly more profitable than Corrin), is that they're being saved until they can act as headliners for whatever Smash's next venture is. Imo they were almost too qualified to be relegated as a tail-end DLC character.

But Nintendo, and ostensibly Monolith as well, don't seem to care much about promoting their recent characters. IS does seem to care. You can take things at their half-truth public statements, or you can judge by their actions. And therein lies the difference, and at least part of the reason behind Corrin's inclusion.

I really don't think the DLC didn't help Fates sales even if it didn't need it, or that Corrin's the worst selling DLC character at all lol. The character got in, and it turns out, hey, they're pretty successful! The only character they ended up getting in were Inklings, but Corrin was the far safer choice. It's not like the whole thing is unprecedented anywho. (Roy) It wasn't Corrin or [your wanted character], it was Corrin, or Inklings, or nobody else.

I'm sure Corrin did help the sales of Fates a bit, as I'm sure any addition would've helped their game, it's just that Fates didn't need any help, FE didn't need any more characters, and Corrin never had any demand, that's why I believe it was, at best, a questionable choice.

Also, I'm as certain as certain can be without any actual proof that Corrin was the worst-selling DLC. Not only was he by far the least-recognizable character of the seven, but he came out right at the end, which is when the most people would've already fallen away from actively following the game. Not to mention the muted response to his reveal. Who do you think sold worse than Corrin? Lucas? Roy? The Smash fanbase liked, wanted, and was familiar with those characters, and that's primarily who the DLC was targeting. Not to mention they came out relatively towards the beginning.

The promotional addition could've theoretically been a number of characters. Let's be real. Greninja was a promotional addition for a game that was already a year old. The span for promotion clearly is a large swath.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Being the worst-selling DLC, hypothetically speaking, doesn't automatically mean he sold badly.

 

[N3ON]

Being the worst-selling DLC, hypothetically speaking, doesn't automatically mean he sold badly.

For sure. Just by virtue of being a Smash character, the least profitable probably sold, at worst, pretty well. It would take a truly reviled, obscure, un-fun looking character to not turn a profit for Smash DLC. I'm not sure it'd even be possible given how rabid the fanbase is, frankly.

Clearly their goal with Corrin wasn't to maximize potential profit, because if it was, they simply would've chosen one of the alternatives. But I'm sure they still turned a profit, and probably a perfectly healthy one, so it's relatively moot. But for the other reasons I still think it was a strange call.

 

[Digital Hazard]

Am I the only one who never understood the hatred Donkey Kong fans have over Fire Emblem reps in specific?

I mean, sure, I can understand dissapointment and dislike over the chracter they want not being included, but why put the blame over the specific characters of a franchise?

Having Corrin out doesn't automatically means K. Rool or Dixie were guaranteed.

Sakurai listens to the fans some times, but not always. Why? This is his game. He is the one who decides who to put in and who doesn't. And truly, we will never get to entirely know the man and how his mind works.

It's okay if you guys dislike Corrin and all, heck, or Fire Emblem in general, but I personally find it childish.

There, my contribution to this war zone. Now I'm gone.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Am I the only one who never understood the hatred Donkey Kong fans have over Fire Emblem reps in specific?

It's not just DK fans TBH

"Too much FE" is pretty much a universal smash claim


Generalzing a group is never a good idea anyway


I will generalize the whole smash fanbase as too close minded but that is another matter

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

Meanwhile, I'm wondering when Atlus will throw their hat in the ring and add a Shin Megami Tensei character.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Meanwhile, I'm wondering when Atlus will throw their hat in the ring and add a Shin Megami Tensei character.

Jack Frost and Samurai Flynn are the only possible choices.

Even then, they would have to be extremely careful about what demons they would choose for trophies or cameos. There's no way we will even see a demon like Mara in Smash.

 

[N3ON]

"Too much FE" is pretty much a universal smash claim

Does that invalidate it?

 

[Curious Villager]

I guess nowadays Fire Emblem seems to be one of the bigger franchises lately, at least as far as Nintendo seems to be concerned, considering the amount of promotion and popularity it has gotten ever since Awakening and Fates release (Which I guess is quite ironic considering they where apparently ready to pull the plug on that franchise if the former didn't do well).

I wonder how the series will be viewed in a few years time and if most people will view its six character representation more favourably by then. I recall some people calling Starfox and Mother "overrepresented" during Brawl but where generally fine for that number for Smash 4 despite nothing much having changed for those series between those two games in terms of activity other than a world wide virtual console release for the latter and a 3DS remake for the former. (And a new game as well, but that came out even beyond Smash 4's DLC got wrapped up...)

 

[FalKoopa]

Am I the only one who never understood the hatred Donkey Kong fans have over Fire Emblem reps in specific?

I mean, sure, I can understand dissapointment and dislike over the chracter they want not being included, but why put the blame over the specific characters of a franchise?

Having Corrin out doesn't automatically means K. Rool or Dixie were guaranteed.

Sakurai listens to the fans some times, but not always. Why? This is his game. He is the one who decides who to put in and who doesn't. And truly, we will never get to entirely know the man and how his mind works.

It's okay if you guys dislike Corrin and all, heck, or Fire Emblem in general, but I personally find it childish.

There, my contribution to this war zone. Now I'm gone.

DK got less content. FE got more.
So FE is an easy scrapegoat for all the representation problem DK has.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Does that invalidate it?

No but the claim that it is just (or generally) DK fans is invalid

 

[Burruni]

Just give me Anna.
I'm past "lord of the month flair" unless we get a hector 2 but god no we can't have a non-sword based main lord unless it's Sigurd.
That and perhaps an AT of like, major characters is all Fe needs.

 

[N3ON]

No but the claim that it is just (or generally) DK fans is invalid

Misinterpreted your post; I agree! I do believe DK is underrepresented and FE is overrepresented, but I don't believe there's absolutely any correlation between the two.

I guess nowadays Fire Emblem seems to be one of the bigger franchises lately, at least as far as Nintendo seems to be concerned, considering the amount of promotion and popularity it has gotten ever since Awakening and Fates release (Which I guess is quite ironic considering they where apparently ready to pull the plug on that franchise if the former didn't do well).

I wonder how the series will be viewed in a few years time and if most people will view its six character representation more favourably by then. I recall some people calling Starfox and Mother "overrepresented" during Brawl but where generally fine for that number for Smash 4 despite nothing much having changed for those series between those two games in terms of activity other than a world wide virtual console release for the latter and a 3DS remake for the former. (And a new game as well, but that came out even beyond Smash 4's DLC got wrapped up...)

There are certainly parallels to those past claims, though I think FE's current presence on the roster even exceeds past examples. Not the least of which is that both those series you mentioned experienced cuts going forward (though Lucas eventually came back), and that they had, at max, three characters, which still put them in a league behind the big three, or because they only added one new character last time around. Not to mention people actually requested for a third and second character in those series, respectively.

This time FE jumped up FOUR characters, something only seen before by Zelda in Melee (which was Zelda... and a game where the roster more than doubled) to six, which puts it in the company of series legitimately many times larger than itself. Plus, by the time we got to five FE characters, few were still clamouring for more, let alone the character we ended up getting. To me it does seem excessive, and disproportionate. And I'm not hating on FE, I like the series even if it isn't my favourite. I'd be ringing the same bell if like... Kirby had six characters.

 

[Opossum]

And I'm not hating on FE, I like the series even if it isn't my favourite. I'd be ringing the same bell if like... Kirby had six characters.

Don't act like Whispy Woods wouldn't be the best newcomer ever.

 

[N3ON]

Don't act like Whispy Woods wouldn't be the best newcomer ever.

That would be interesting.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I wouldn't even mind the idea of getting 6 Kirby characters too much. Waddle Dee, Dark Matter, Galacta Knight as a Meta Knight "clone", and even Prince Fluff would be cool additions, but yeah, that would be excessive.

One thing that kind of bugs me is that Starfox is the only franchise in Smash Wii U/3DS to have less characters than the amount they had in Brawl. It's weird to think that Starfox lost 1 character while Fire Emblem gained 4.

 

[Deleted member]

If Nintendo wanted a relevant promotional inclusion they were certainly not limited to Corrin. Just off the top of my head Isabelle and Elma were both also featured in games around that time, were heavily promoted with the game, actually had prior popularity, and were not from bloated series. And no, Wolf is not the protagonist of SF0, nor a new character, but those are relatively arbitrary qualifiers considering, as long as he would've driven attention to SF0, which he would've, he still could've easily functioned as promotion.

You're missing the point of the "promotion".

It wasn't regarding games that were released around the Fall/Winter 2015 season, it was for promoting an upcoming game.

Yes, Fates had already been released in Japan, but it hadn't been released anywhere else yet, which was the point of Corrin's inclusion. The intended release for Corrin was literally right before the Western release of his game.

By the time Elma would have been released or even revealed, it would have been too late to actually promote her game. Isabelle was an AT, so she was never an option either way. She also had nothing to promote since Happy Home Designer was already months old by the time the last DLC characters would be revealed.
Wolf would have been a very poor choice for promotional purposes and you're just grasping at straws at that point. Slippy would be the better choice to promote it, especially with the Star Fox Guard spin-off tied with it starring him that he would've also promoted, though he would have been released before we would even know about that existing (as Star Fox Guard, not Project Guard).
And also people would have ******* that we got Slippy and not Wolf.

The only other reasonable options would be Shadow Mewtwo to promote the upcoming Wii U release of Pokken Tournament, which would only be one month after he would have been released for Smash, or Linkle, to promote Hyrule Warriors Legends, which would have had a Japan release weeks before she would have been released for Smash and releases outside of Japan a month after her Smash release.
But let's be honest. As much as people ***** about Corrin, people would have ******* A LOT MORE over a second Mewtwo being DLC (even if Mewtwo and Shadow Mewtwo played nothing alike) and Linkle being a third "Link" (despite not actually being a female Link) in Smash as well as being a non-canon spin-off character would have raised a scene as well.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

You're missing the point of the "promotion".

It wasn't regarding games that were released around the Fall/Winter 2015 season, it was for promoting an upcoming game.

Yes, Fates had already been released in Japan, but it hadn't been released anywhere else yet, which was the point of Corrin's inclusion. The intended release for Corrin was literally right before the Western release of his game.

By the time Elma would have been released or even revealed, it would have been too late to actually promote her game. Isabelle was an AT, so she was never an option either way. She also had nothing to promote since Happy Home Designer was already months old by the time the last DLC characters would be revealed.
Wolf would have been a very poor choice for promotional purposes and you're just grasping at straws at that point. Slippy would be the better choice to promote it, especially with the Star Fox Guard spin-off tied with it starring him that he would've also promoted, though he would have been released before we would even know about that existing (as Star Fox Guard, not Project Guard).
And also people would have ******* that we got Slippy and not Wolf.

The only other reasonable options would be Shadow Mewtwo to promote the upcoming Wii U release of Pokken Tournament, which would only be one month after he would have been released for Smash, or Linkle, to promote Hyrule Warriors Legends, which would have had a Japan release weeks before she would have been released for Smash and releases outside of Japan a month after her Smash release.
But let's be honest. As much as people ***** about Corrin, people would have ******* A LOT MORE over a second Mewtwo being DLC (even if Mewtwo and Shadow Mewtwo played nothing alike) and Linkle being a third "Link" (despite not actually being a female Link) in Smash as well as being a non-canon spin-off character would have raised a scene as well.

What about Paper Mario to promote Paper Jam?

 

[Deleted member]

What about Paper Mario to promote Paper Jam?

Paper Mario would have been released for Smash too late to promote Paper Jam.
The game would be released everywhere but the US and .....South Korea....? Before the Final Presentation that would reveal him, and he would be released a month after the US release.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Paper Mario would have been released for Smash too late to promote it.
The game would be released everywhere but the US and .....South Korea....? Before the Final Presentation that would reveal him, and he would be released a month after the US release.

Well this is assuming that they would have revealed and released him on the same days as Corrin.

If Sakurai did plan to add a promotional character well in advance there could have been an alternate timeline where they decided to push Paper Mario out before Cloud, and had him revealed and released around the same time Cloud was in our timeline. That could have worked.

 

[Deleted member]

Well this is assuming that they would have revealed and released him on the same days as Corrin.

If Sakurai did plan to add a promotional character well in advance there could have been an alternate timeline where they decided to push Paper Mario out before Cloud, and had him revealed and released around the same time Cloud was in our timeline. That could have worked.

Let;s stay within the confines of reality. No "alternate universes" that drastically change the circumstances.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Let;s stay within the confines of reality.

I guess if you want to be boring

Sakurai already made it sound like the scheduled release of Fates had better timing than any other upcoming game when he said "After consulting many times with Nintendo and looking at the upcoming release schedule, Fire Emblem Fates was in just the right spot"

So there you go you win.

 

[Sir Gengar de Èctoplasma]

Don't act like Whispy Woods wouldn't be the best newcomer ever.

His moveset would certainly blow our minds.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Reggie confirmed that E3 is gonna be a big showing this year. Could that mean Smash? I'll be over on the E3 thread gatheirng hype train gifs.

 

[Deleted member]

About the latest discussion related to Fire Emblem in Smash 4...

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Opossum]

About the latest discussion related to Fire Emblem in Smash 4...

He's the Altean Prince who fights for his friends, but where else can you find Marth? #FEHeroes pic.twitter.com/wlBU11rZQZ

— Nintendo of Europe (@NintendoEurope) March 26, 2017

It's okay, Code Name: S.T.E.A.M., I didn't forget you...


Henry Fleming for Smash by the way.

 

[Luminario]

It's okay, Code Name: S.T.E.A.M., I didn't forget you...


Henry Fleming for Smash by the way.

Code name who? In all honesty though, Code Name STEAM was advertised quite a bit until it was released and then it dropped off the face of the earth for some reason. Not even Nintendo themselves remember it apparently. I'm getting more and more convinced it was all just a fever dream.

 

[KniteBlargh]

Reggie confirmed that E3 is gonna be a big showing this year. Could that mean Smash? I'll be over on the E3 thread gatheirng hype train gifs.

Just read up on this. Quote from Reggie:
“E3 is always a big time for Nintendo. We look at each E3 as a unique opportunity to tell our story. And we’re gonna have a big E3 this year. We’re going to be showcasing a variety of games. We will have experiences for… consumers will be able to attend the show for the very first time. So I’m not gonna tell you all of the various games and all of our little secrets for E3, but I can tell you that E3 is going to be a major opportunity for us to showcase not only Nintendo Switch, but also content coming to Nintendo 3DS.”

Smash has always been a great hands-on experience to draw in consumers; it'd make sense to have it set up somewhere since E3 will be open to the public (even if it is the rumoured port with only a small amount of additional content). Nintendo also has quite a decent space reserved this year. The way he keeps bringing up 3DS, though... Is it to reassure 3DS owners for now, or is there something completely different going through his mind?

Anyway, I shouldn't be hyped, because this is Reggie talking, but I still am!

It's okay, Code Name: S.T.E.A.M., I didn't forget you...


Henry Fleming for Smash by the way.

I quietly second this.

 

[Ura]

Code name who? In all honesty though, Code Name STEAM was advertised quite a bit until it was released and then it dropped off the face of the earth for some reason. Not even Nintendo themselves remember it apparently. I'm getting more and more convinced it was all just a fever dream.

Intelligent Systems being Intelligent Systems.

They can't even be bothered with their other TBS series (Wars) and never pulled for a playable character in Smash Bros like they did Roy among others for FE.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

It's sad how badly Codename STEAM sold. Even though I didn't care for the gameplay, the setting and premise was interesting enough that I was hoping it would at least do decently, being a new IP.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

Don't act like Whispy Woods wouldn't be the best newcomer ever.

> Whispy Woods
> Not Susie Haltmann

You are off the hook for now, Possum.