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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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PushDustIn

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The bigger problem I face with that is how he would be implemented if either Green Greens or Dream Land 64 returns. Unless I'm mistaken, the only time we even get characters that appear in both the background and as a fighter are when they're 8-bit renditions as part of the stage. Not even getting into the countless other problems that pop up from using Whispy. Yes I'm fully aware I didn't need to take this seriously.

I did also have the one tangentially in regards to the Character Corners.

It'd certainly be a good way to get us focused on certain series if the thread was ever prompted for that kind of information, anyway.
For Character Corner inquiries, it's best to ask NantenJex on Twitter!
 

N3ON

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Jealous of her popularity sweetie? You make it sound like she hasn't been in tons of games or that people don't know her.
It's a weird choice to rally behind. Her potential exists but is more limited than contemporaries from her series, her roles in games is as a Peach expy when the roster should call for it, with 25% more spunk and a different hairstyle (aka not things that greatly effect Smash), the "tons of games" have consisted of one unique and notable role which happened almost thirty years ago (in which she pretty much existed as little more than an object to be reclaimed) and a bunch of filler side character stuff... basically I don't see why she should be anything more than, at most, a last-minute clone.
 
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Luminario

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It's a weird choice to rally behind. Her potential exists but is more limited than contemporaries from her series, her roles in games is as a Peach expy when the roster should call for it, with 25% more spunk and a different hairstyle (aka not things that greatly effect Smash), the "tons of games" have consisted of one unique and notable role which happened almost thirty years ago (in which she pretty much existed as little more than an object to be reclaimed) and a bunch of filler side character stuff... basically I don't see why she should be anything more than, at most, a last-minute clone.
I just wanted to be petty I didn't wanna get dragged through the dirt here. I suppose it all depends on whether or not you like her as a character. I don't think many people that support her believe she would have Rosalina level uniqueness but I really think she would definitely add something to the game and between Kart, Party and all the Sports games Daisy is THE Mario spin-off rep alongside Waluigi with a plethora of games to take inspiration from. Whether or not she'd be unique or just a Peach clone is up to whoever is in charge this time around.
 

God Robert's Cousin

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I just wanted to be petty I didn't wanna get dragged through the dirt here. I suppose it all depends on whether or not you like her as a character. I don't think many people that support her believe she would have Rosalina level uniqueness but I really think she would definitely add something to the game and between Kart, Party and all the Sports games Daisy is THE Mario spin-off rep alongside Waluigi with a plethora of games to take inspiration from. Whether or not she'd be unique or just a Peach clone is up to whoever is in charge this time around.
The main problem though: What does Daisy do? The things that go on in the various Mario Party, Mario Kart, Mario Tennis games etc. all feature things that aren't fully utilized in Smash, yes, but none of these things are exclusive to Daisy. Characters are typically homogeneous across these games if they even have any differences to begin with outside of their animations, meaning most of what can be said for Daisy can also be said for Toad, Waluigi, or hell, any playable Mario character already in Smash to begin with. That's pretty much the definition of a character's moveset being filler.

The most specific things get with Daisy is her flower motif over Peach's hearts, but that doesn't translate into a gameplay mechanic. The way I see it, many of Daisy's supporters don't really acknowledge why anyone else should want Daisy if they aren't already supporters to begin with. If we're not a fan of her as a personality and she likewise offers nothing unique in the context of mechanics, why would we support that?
 
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Also referencing that old meme made me excited for the idea of PotD returning and then sad that it wont happen because no miiverse.

I really hope we get a new dojo or something, i would kill for stuff like pic of the day to return.
Maybe they could still use Smash's official Facebook and Twitter pages as a new way to broadcast PotDs.

(The amounts of Angery reactions which would occur on Facebook though)
 

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Maybe they could still use Smash's official Facebook and Twitter pages as a new way to broadcast PotDs.

(The amounts of Angery reactions which would occur on Facebook though)
That's a good idea. Though knowing Nintendo they usually try to keep their updates close to home so I'd more expect an update to the website or, even better, the resurrection of the DOJO!!

On Daisy. She's not my first pick for a new Mario character and I'm not really a fan of her myself but I do know of her incredibly dedicated fanbase and thus understand her appeal. I'd be fine with her but I feel like there are more likely additions to come first.
 

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The main problem though: What does Daisy do? The things that go on in the various Mario Party, Mario Kart, Mario Tennis games etc. all feature things that aren't fully utilized in Smash, yes, but none of these things are exclusive to Daisy. Characters are typically homogeneous across these games if they even have any differences to begin with outside of their animations, meaning most of what can be said for Daisy can also be said for Toad, Waluigi, or hell, any playable Mario character already in Smash to begin with. That's pretty much the definition of a character's moveset being filler.

The most specific things get with Daisy is her flower motif over Peach's hearts, but that doesn't translate into a gameplay mechanic. The way I see it, many of Daisy's supporters don't really acknowledge why anyone else should want Daisy if they aren't already supporters to begin with. If we're not a fan of her as a personality and she likewise offers nothing unique in the context of mechanics, why would we support that?
You know, I absolutely hate how I don't have a definitive answer for you. Other characters I support like Ashley or Krystal are so easy to pinpoint on how they stand out from the rest of the cast with pretty much no argument on their uniqueness but with Daisy it's hard to find an aspect she is uniquely the most qualified for. The flower motif can be integrated as plant-based attacks like a flower mine or petal tornado recovery, there's also tons of other options available to her like Mario Land Superball, Sarasaland enemy summons, item box chargeable projectile, outfit change Zelda/Sheik mechanic, and an abundance of other ideas that haven't been mentioned or even thought of yet, but none I can use to reliably convince you to support her, especially if you just don't like her.
 

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Jealous of her popularity sweetie? You make it sound like she hasn't been in tons of games or that people don't know her.
Whilst that might be true, it's not like she ever profitted from those appearances herself. When ever was she in a mainstream Mario game? When ever was she not simply a Peach expy, like N3ON N3ON said? She doesn't really have any sort of ability to speak of without using creative liberty to the max.

I'm all for new Nintendo characters cause I think the attention is shifted far too much toward 3rd party characters, but Daisy?! Really now...? Even Waluigi is far more workable and interessting. I just cannot see the appeal of the character at all.
 

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All that I know is that Daisy is primarily a spin-off exclusive character now. And when you look at Waluigi, another spin-off exclusive character, he ended up getting the Assist Trophy treatment.

Sure, Peach can always receive a palette that references Daisy, but that's pretty much it for the flower princess.
 
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Pippin (Peregrin Took)

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The main problem though: What does Daisy do? The things that go on in the various Mario Party, Mario Kart, Mario Tennis games etc. all feature things that aren't fully utilized in Smash, yes, but none of these things are exclusive to Daisy. Characters are typically homogeneous across these games if they even have any differences to begin with outside of their animations, meaning most of what can be said for Daisy can also be said for Toad, Waluigi, or hell, any playable Mario character already in Smash to begin with. That's pretty much the definition of a character's moveset being filler.

The most specific things get with Daisy is her flower motif over Peach's hearts, but that doesn't translate into a gameplay mechanic. The way I see it, many of Daisy's supporters don't really acknowledge why anyone else should want Daisy if they aren't already supporters to begin with. If we're not a fan of her as a personality and she likewise offers nothing unique in the context of mechanics, why would we support that?
The one argument I can think of against that would be that because Daisy is more of a tomboy compared to Peach, her moveset could be primarily based off sports games (hence the GameFAQs meme "Daisy in her Sports Outfit: DIHSE). Like for her up-special, say, she could toss a tennis ball and serve it. I don't know how much weight this concept would hold however, and some would argue we already got something similar with Wii Fit Trainer.
 

Luminario

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Whilst that might be true, it's not like she ever profitted from those appearances herself. When ever was she in a mainstream Mario game? When ever was she not simply a Peach expy, like N3ON N3ON said? She doesn't really have any sort of ability to speak of without using creative liberty to the max.

I'm all for new Nintendo characters cause I think the attention is shifted far too much toward 3rd party characters, but Daisy?! Really now...? Even Waluigi is far more workable and interessting. I just cannot see the appeal of the character at all.
Look, I like Daisy as a character, and I'd like to see her in smash, that's pretty much it. I don't think she's likely but I'd still like to play as her. You make it sound like most of the characters on the rosters moves weren't just made up on the spot.
I feel like we're going down a bad road here. I like Daisy, you don't like Daisy, this loop isn't gonna end unless we just agree to never bring it up again.
 

FalKoopa

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Since, the original poll of the thread is a moot point now, I changed the question.

Let's see what the general consensus is.
 

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Since, the original poll of the thread is a moot point now, I changed the question.

Let's see what the general consensus is.
The question should have REALLY specified whether or not it was a port.

I assumed it was a port, so I picked 1-2. But if it was a full new game, I'd have gone higher.
 

AlphaSSB

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Since, the original poll of the thread is a moot point now, I changed the question.

Let's see what the general consensus is.
I went ahead and voted 1-2 under the assumption that you were talking about a port. I feel that 1-2 is more realistic, and that two characters with maybe a few extra stages would provide a good enough selling point. Although more characters would be nice, of course.
 

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Sometimes you have to wonder if the question takes into account returning veterans as well. But I guess at best, at least one veteran could get a second chance.
 
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FalKoopa

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The question should have REALLY specified whether or not it was a port.

I assumed it was a port, so I picked 1-2. But if it was a full new game, I'd have gone higher.
I worded it like that so you also have to decide whether you feel a port or a brand new game is more likely.
 

KniteBlargh

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Whoa, 7+ is an option? My heart... As much as I would LOVE that to happen, I expect very little, though I guess it'd be possible if they decided to throw in all of the veterans (except Snake, because Snake fans aren't allowed to be happy anymore) with a newcomer or two, but even then, considering the amount of time involved in building Mewtwo, Lucas, and Roy (especially Mewtwo and Roy) from the ground up... Eek.

Voting 1-2 to be safe. I do think there will be an addition or two at least, but any more than that would depend on some questions being answered... Is it really a port? If it's a port, are they also working on a completely new entry? And of course I just don't want to work myself up too much for something that may not happen...

About Daisy, someone literally said to me yesterday that if she were to be included, they'd main her just to annoy the heck out of other people... Uh, wow. LOL
 
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Opossum

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I worded it like that so you also have to decide whether you feel a port or a brand new game is more likely.
I know, but you said you were "trying to get a consensus." Kind of hard to do that when there's a lot of different ways to ask the question. :p
 

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I know, but you said you were "trying to get a consensus." Kind of hard to do that when there's a lot of different ways to ask the question. :p
I just wanted to know what the users here generally think/expect. I guess "consensus" isn't the best word for that.
 

Curious Villager

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I hope we get a brand new entry entirely, so I went with 7+

I've already played the heck out of both Smash for 3DS and Wii U so I'm not to fond of the whole idea of just getting a port with just the stages mashed together and only one or two additional characters included and then having to buy the whole game (and the console if I don't have it by then) for the third time over just for that. I'd rather they take their time and make a brand new entry entirely with more new characters, stages, modes and features to play with.

They can reuse assets if they want though (the models are, for the most part, practically perfect anyway), just make a brand new entry entirely, much like how it was done with Splatoon 2 and Mario Kart Wii for example.
 
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I don't know what to think, I voted for 3-4 characters because that's the in-between of everything but assuming this is a port, I honestly think this can go any of the ways, no new characters at all, a few new characters, or a lot. All of that depends on how seriously they take the port, it's probably going to sell well no matter what because of people that never owned the 3DS and/or the Wii-U version, but the question is whether or not Nintendo's actually going to bother with trying to get repeat buyers of the originals. For all I know, they could just slap on two new stages for the Wii-U version, nerf Dedede again, port that, and call it a day.
 
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I have voted 7+ characters, either the next Smash game is a port or an all new one.

:upsidedown:
 
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N3ON

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I voted 3-4, because I figure, barring a VC release of Melee, the "next" Smash Bros. will be a port. And I counted potential returning vets like ICs as "new".

Also it seems Fal was leaning towards that thought too, as an actual Smash 5 would assuredly have over 7 new characters, leaving the 7+ category a little too vague for that context, imo.

Look, I like Daisy as a character, and I'd like to see her in smash, that's pretty much it. I don't think she's likely but I'd still like to play as her. You make it sound like most of the characters on the rosters moves weren't just made up on the spot.
I feel like we're going down a bad road here. I like Daisy, you don't like Daisy, this loop isn't gonna end unless we just agree to never bring it up again.
I didn't mean to rake you over the coals, though I don't really believe questioning you about Daisy constitutes as such, I just am at a loss as to Daisy's newfound popularity, and, as someone who appears to support Daisy, I wanted to know why that was the case. Of course everyone is entitled to like who they like, I was just expecting to hear some defence as to what seems like, again, just an inferior choice for an addition. Unless you're deliberately looking for clone material.

I wasn't even a matter of liking or not liking. I don't like every popular character out there, but I generally understand why they have the popularity they do. Daisy is an exception here.

The one argument I can think of against that would be that because Daisy is more of a tomboy compared to Peach, her moveset could be primarily based off sports games (hence the GameFAQs meme "Daisy in her Sports Outfit: DIHSE). Like for her up-special, say, she could toss a tennis ball and serve it. I don't know how much weight this concept would hold however, and some would argue we already got something similar with Wii Fit Trainer.
Even apart from WFT, personally I would argue that that seems like something Sakurai is more readily implementing with Waluigi. I mean he's already holding a tennis racquet. And, as stated well by several other people, those are hardly traits unique to Daisy herself, or even Waluigi. Why Daisy?
 

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And I just sitting here wondering why no one mentioned things like the Super Ball or Sky Pop plane at all.

Oh wait, Super Mario Land is the black sheep of all Mario platformers.

And the obligatory "They are just things Mario used and aren't unique to her as a character" statement.
 

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And I just sitting here wondering why no one mentioned things like the Super Ball or Sky Pop plane at all.

Oh wait, Super Mario Land is the black sheep of all Mario platformers.

And the obligatory "They are just things Mario used and aren't unique to her as a character" statement.
I know it's from Super Mario Land 2, but what about the Carrot power-up? Maybe that could work as an Up Special. Or if they did go the Peach clone/semi-clone route, it could be her equivalent to Peach's float, and she sprouts the bunny ears as a reference.
 

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And I just sitting here wondering why no one mentioned things like the Super Ball or Sky Pop plane at all.

Oh wait, Super Mario Land is the black sheep of all Mario platformers.

And the obligatory "They are just things Mario used and aren't unique to her as a character" statement.
That bit at the end is likely why no one's mentioned it. If Daisy's uniqueness comes down to things she's never actually used, it's a bit of an issue.
 

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I know it's from Super Mario Land 2, but what about the Carrot power-up? Maybe that could work as an Up Special. Or if they did go the Peach clone/semi-clone route, it could be her equivalent to Peach's float, and she sprouts the bunny ears as a reference.
The Super Carrot would certainly work, especially if they wanted to go for the full "Super Mario Land" route with her character. It still fits her character without feeling forced.

Even if though that game was all about Wario and some "stranger" lands than her own.
 

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I didn't mean to rake you over the coals, though I don't really believe questioning you about Daisy constitutes as such, I just am at a loss as to Daisy's newfound popularity, and, as someone who appears to support Daisy, I wanted to know why that was the case. Of course everyone is entitled to like who they like, I was just expecting to hear some defence as to what seems like, again, just an inferior choice for an addition. Unless you're deliberately looking for clone material.

I wasn't even a matter of liking or not liking. I don't like every popular character out there, but I generally understand why they have the popularity they do. Daisy is an exception here.


Even apart from WFT, personally I would argue that that seems like something Sakurai is more readily implementing with Waluigi. I mean he's already holding a tennis racquet. And, as stated well by several other people, those are hardly traits unique to Daisy herself, or even Waluigi. Why Daisy?
It's all good, you keep asking questions. I can't speak for other supporters, but I want Daisy in smash more for who she is as a character. Her vibrant outgoing personality and tomboyish competitive mannerisms speak to me. I've never picked characters based on their drawing board movesets because, quite frankly, that's such a dull way of playing a game. Sure, she might not have the most unique traits that can be used as a gimmick to get her in smash and sure, she might just be a Peach clone if she got in, but that doesn't make her inferior as a character, and if I prioritize who a character is instead of what the character can do, then there must be other people who play the game who do the same.
 

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That bit at the end is likely why no one's mentioned it. If Daisy's uniqueness comes down to things she's never actually used, it's a bit of an issue.
While I agree that Daisy has little to nothing going for her (and I say this as someone that does like and support the character), I still think certain elements from the games she's appeared are fair game for use. Plenty of Smash characters use abilities that aren't theirs or have completely made up ones where Sakurai was required to take creative liberties.

I don't think she has much of a chance at all, but I also don't think it isn't plausible to craft her a moveset from what she does have and from elements in the games she has appeared in. And yes you can still pose the question of why Daisy in particular and to that, it is indeed a matter of personal preference. Taking from the Mario spin-offs is a role that can be taken by a few other characters such as Waluigi (who I also support despite knowing he stands little chance), but overall I think the case can be made for this kind of character regardless of who is chosen.

I can concede that I can't give a definitive argument for why either should take precedent over a more important Mario character like Paper Mario, or other Nintendo characters in general, but I still think something interesting and unique enough can be done with these characters, and they're at least "big" enough among secondary/supporting characters to be considered now that the major ones have been accounted for.
 

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Honestly I can see Daisy joining smash but only if she has reasons to be used over peach. Maybe she could be faster than peach or have the ability to recover better. I think everyone has a shot at smash even those we don't really see working because I feel like the dev team can really surprise us with some of these characters.
 

Yomi's Biggest Fan

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Technically already in a horrible mood from an incident last night, but sure I'll bite.

I get it, Waluigi has a lot going for him thanks to his creator's pet status from Camelot while Daisy's original creator is no longer of this world. The air swimming, the toon force, the long purple vines, and other weird **** he can do. Sure he's technically supported to be a weird lanky rival to Weegee, but come on. How else do you think he has no set theme (unlike Daisy with flowers) and get all these new abilities out of the blue.

And what's wrong with the flower moves? Is it because it's a weak gimmick or you're expecting Villager tier wackiness out of her character. Things like Flowerbed Return, Flower Swing, and Crystal Smash can't be done with other characters. If you mean things like the racket and other spinoff stuff, sure I can get that. But discounting those abilities because they aren't interesting enough is some serious downplay.


Remember how "unique" Pac-Man and Wii Fit Trainer was before they were confirmed? And to add more insult to the injury, Wii Fit Trainer never played Volleyball or Hola Hoops, that was all the Miis' doing. What about Ness? He borrowed PSI techniques from his fellow party members out of the blue and there's no way in hell that he should have PK Starstorm when PSI Rockin' exists.

I get that you all expect a lot out of a character's inclusion like uniqueness and abilities that are personal to the character, but I just don't see what's the gripe against her few unique abilities when other characters get a free pass. But if I'm still going to be debunked despite this, well, just do it in a reasonable matter:
 
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AwesomeAussie27

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Technically already in a horrible mood from an incident last night, but sure I'll bite.

I get it, Waluigi has a lot going for him thanks to his creator's pet status from Camelot while Daisy's original creator is no longer of this world. The air swimming, the toon force, the long purple vines, and other weird **** he can do. Sure he's technically supported to be a weird lanky rival to Weegee, but come on. How else do you think he has no set theme (unlike Daisy with flowers) and get all these new abilities out of the blue.

And what's wrong with the flower moves? Is it because it's a weak gimmick or you're expecting Villager tier wackiness out of her character. Things like Flowerbed Return, Flower Swing, and Crystal Smash can't be done with other characters. If you mean things like the racket and other spinoff stuff, sure I can get that. But discounting those abilities because they aren't interesting enough is some serious downplay.


Remember how "unique" Pac-Man and Wii Fit Trainer was before they were confirmed? And to add more insult to the injury, Wii Fit Trainer never played Volleyball or Hola Hoops, that was all the Miis' doing. What about Ness? He borrowed PSI techniques from his fellow party members out of the blue and there's no way in hell that he should have PK Starstorm when PSI Rockin' exists.

I get that you all expect a lot out of a character's inclusion like uniqueness and abilities that are personal to the character, but I just don't see what's the gripe against her few unique abilities when other characters get a free pass. But if I'm still going to be debunked despite this, well, just do it in a reasonable matter:
Pretty much. I hope you're still alright despite having to deal with that yesterday.

Anyways ever has their own opinions, but some just ask for way too much. Especially if that character happens to be a swordsman (Looks at Takamaru). I even had to look at some old threads just to see that he was far from welcomed before the Assist Trophy happened. Some even called him strangely "overrated" for some odd reason. Is he seriously that overrated?

In fact, let's have a little fun mates. Would you think Takamaru can be far more unique as a character than Daisy herself? You blokes (and sheila) seriously opened a can of worms for his afternoon.
 

Yomi's Biggest Fan

See You Next Year, Baby
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Pretty much. I hope you're still alright despite having to deal with that yesterday.

Anyways ever has their own opinions, but some just ask for way too much. Especially if that character happens to be a swordsman (Looks at Takamaru). I even had to look at some old threads just to see that he was far from welcomed before the Assist Trophy happened. Some even called him strangely "overrated" for some odd reason. Is he seriously that overrated?

In fact, let's have a little fun mates. Would you think Takamaru can be far more unique as a character than Daisy herself? You blokes (and sheila) seriously opened a can of worms for his afternoon.
People used the same "generic swordsman" straw man countless times, countless others said him being Japan-only hurts him a lot, any look towards things like Samurai Warriors or Nintendo Land was considered ****ing him like it's a serious sign, and saying characters like Duck Hunt or Balloon Fighter deserved that slot more. Zuxxion, YoshiAndToad, BKupa666, and several others were a part of these groups.

Funnily enough, everyone changed their tune when the game was announced to be localized, only for Takamaru to be confirmed as an Assist Trophy. The Japanese fan outrage was pretty funny though.

That's a tough one. I like both, but Ineould give it to Taka just because of his arsenal. You can't beat a katana and invisibility cloak.
 

Schnee117

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People used the same "generic swordsman" straw man countless times, countless others said him being Japan-only hurts him a lot, any look towards things like Samurai Warriors or Nintendo Land was considered ****ing him like it's a serious sign, and saying characters like Duck Hunt or Balloon Fighter deserved that slot more.
You don't need to name names you know.

Though "Generic Swordsman" does tend to be a display of ignorance more often than not anyway.

 

Zem-raj

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Daisy using moves that she hasn't used (that others have) from Super Mario games isn't an issue...

Ness uses moves that he didn't use in Earthbound as attacks. PSI Magnet, PK Fire and PK Thunder belong to Paula, and PK Starstorm (Final Smash) belongs to Poo. The majority of Lucas' attacks belong to Kumatora.

Pokémon use various attacks for custom moves that don't exist in the Pokémon series.

Zero Suit Samus uses a whip in her gun, and jet boot heels, despite neither existing and not used in the Metroid games.

Didn't Captain Falcon and Fox McCloud have moves made up specifically for Super Smash Bros.?

etc.
 
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I get it, Waluigi has a lot going for him thanks to his creator's pet status from Camelot while Daisy's original creator is no longer of this world. The air swimming, the toon force, the long purple vines, and other weird **** he can do. Sure he's technically supported to be a weird lanky rival to Weegee, but come on. How else do you think he has no set theme (unlike Daisy with flowers) and get all these new abilities out of the blue.
Being a "creator's pet" is horribly irrelevant when Camelot only handles Tennis and Golf. And since Golf doesn't really give anyone real "powers" to speak of, it basically limits whatever he got in the Tennis games as Camelot's doing.
Everything else is Nintendo's doing.
 
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