Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[FantasticMr.StarPit]

Speaking about the ESRB rating during the beginning of the direct, will Ultimate be Rated T, like Melee & Brawl? Because I really want it back. Smash 4's rating felt off to me.

 

[Starry]

I personally think ballot winners or close to winners are going to get picked.
I think Geno is very likely.

I hope so! I'd love to see Geno make it. Could you imagine hearing an arrangement of "Beware the Forest's Mushrooms" during his trailer?

 

[KMDP]

>Mii Fighters can still be customized, but only gear, voices, classes, names, and the Mii itself can be customized.

So... everything then.

I like the idea of stage morphing. But someone was talking about cutting the legal stages to 10 or so. Which I hope is not true,

"Cut the legal stages to 10."
There are at least 15 eligible stages, not including Battlefield and Omega forms.

...WHAT!?

 

[Knight Dude]

Another bonus if we get Ryu Hayabusa, you can Izuna Drop the whole cast.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Honeslty am happy with the addition of so many Echoes. With a roster as giant as Ultimate, it only adds to the debt of the game. So I think the decision of having Echoes was a great one. Hopefully we're getting even way more than what has already been shown!

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

You know, as much as I appreciate Squad Strike, Stage Morph, Stage Hazards Switch, and Final Smash Meters, we're still missing something big.

TILTING THE SCREEN WITH THE C-STICK

But seriously though, when is it going to be announced?

I don't think an element that aesthetic is high priority in the eyes of Nintendo. In fact, I'm not even bothered by its absence from Smash Wii U.

 

[WaxPython]

Echo fighter = Clone

It can mean a full clone, or a semi clone. Just a name rebranding that's all.

If Dr Mario was a new fighter he would be an echo fighter, same with Lucina

 

[Starry]

Honeslty am happy with the addition of so many Echoes. With a roster as giant as Ultimate, it only adds to the debt of the game. So I think the decision of having Echoes was a great one. Hopefully we're getting even way more than what has already been shown!

Echoes are SO good!!! I just love the fact that characters that everyone had written off are finally getting some love, it's the best!

 

[SonicMario]

Alright, then.

I don’t think Shadow is getting in, and will stay and Assist. I mean people say that Knuckles replaces Shadow, even though Shadow does something completely different from Knuckles. We also still have some assists left and Shadow is likley one of them, not to mention that we don’t really know if Sakurai wants to add a whole bunch of echoes for the sake of it, there are a lot of other possible echoes.

Also, I please don’t add Shadow. There’s something not right with him being added in. Even with Richter being added to Smash, I though Nintendo actually owed the series when I was watching the reveal, and with their history with Nintendo it just made more sense for them. I don’t like the idea of Shadow being our second Sonic Rep.

I kinda think Shadow is coming as an echo, though that may just may be bracing for it so I can get some degree of disappointment out of the way by the time it does officially happen. I won't completely hate it, especially if he's classified as an Echo since I can find some positives in it. But yeah there are definitely other Sonic characters I'd like first.

I do think there is a teeny-tiny chance Tails might be an echo instead though now that we know they can have a difference or two. Many mii costumes that came through DLC either got an upgrade to an Assist Trophy or a playable character. And Tails got a Mii costume while Shadow didn't. I don't think it's a strong enough point to say he's likelier then Shadow at this point. But if we have an upset this speculation period, I feel Tails getting in over Shadow (or at least coming first) could be something to keep an eye on. (And I'd be completely over the moon if it does happen)

 

[MBRedboy31]

I like the idea of stage morphing. But someone was talking about cutting the legal stages to 10 or so. Which I hope is not true,

I can imagine competitive players complaining about the fact that, since the new stage during a stage morph comes in from the bottom of the screen, it can save players launched offstage / give them an easier recovery if they check the clock, see there is a morph coming, and then go under the stage so that the new stage catches them on the way in... plus, there might be slight lag during the end of the transformation that could mess with player’s inputs. If that’s the case, then RIP

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Speaking about the ESRB rating during the beginning of the direct, will Ultimate be Rated T, like Melee & Brawl? Because I really want it back. Smash 4's rating felt off to me.

The big thing is that a T rating limits the potential audience of the game.

Parents are much more inclined to buy their kids E10+ games over T rated games.

Source: was kid whose parents didn't buy him Melee because it was rated T. I had to beg them for Brawl, and since I'd played it at some friends houses they relented.

 

[KMDP]

Honeslty am happy with the addition of so many Echoes. With a roster as giant as Ultimate, it only adds to the debt of the game. So I think the decision of having Echoes was a great one. Hopefully we're getting even way more than what has already been shown!

People say that Melee feels like a game that was designed to be played for a long time.

By the look of things, Ultimate is shaping up to be the same.

Echoes are SO good!!! I just love the fact that characters that everyone had written off are finally getting some love, it's the best!

It will only truly be the best if we get Hector, then Charlotte as his Echo Fighter. (I'm kidding, but I would love this turn of events XD)

 

[Arcanir]

So what, is Krystal a backstabber and criminal at heart to you too then? It's simply a possible ending in a game of several, where canon is questionable among all of them.

Krystal did play a part in the betrayal yes, so I'm not sure what your point is there. Also, all endings are possible and can be considered in that context, particularly since we don't have a canon ending yet.

I can see helping with the Aparoids, but why assist Fox on Corneria and actually give him meaningful advice that he needed to complete the mission? Even in the ending, Fox seems to believe that Star Wolf are alive and well despite odds telling him no.

You pretty much answered your own question: The Aparoids are a much bigger threat and there's no gain for him to lose Fox when he's crucial to saving Corneria and stopping them.

He willingly serves Andross because he's a mercenary and is payed to, and he clearly enjoys having an equal, with descriptions saying he has a begrudging respect for the vulpine, if I remember right. No villain or evil character is going to have any sense of respect in them for anyone but themselves, IF they're egotistical at all, as I'm sure you can't say Ridley, Ganondorf, and heck, even K. Rool don't have an ounce of respect for their "rivals".

And mercenaries have a choice in who they serve, which is where the difference in morality comes in for Star Fox and Star Wolf. Star Fox aligned with Corneria and saving the system, Wolf aligned willingly with Andross in two continuities and was (possibly at that) manipulated into it in one. That still shows a level of lack of morality that characters like Dark Pit do not have as they don't serve someone who's goal is galaxy-wide domination through ruthless means.

And note: I'm not saying he's on the level of Ridley or K. Rool (if anything I'd say he's closer to Bowser if any of them), I'm saying that he's more of a villain then any of the rivals.

Fox is a mercenary who's mercilessly killed those who opposed the side that pays him too, last I checked. The job is a morally grey area in of itself, and being what they are, we have no real right to really call them "heroes" per sé, just figures that did right by Corneria's standards as per their daily job.

Which is not how it's presented in the game proper. Fox and friends are fighting against a ruthless dictator that's trying to destroy and conquer everything they love, Wolf is fighting for that very character and is willing to do what he can to stop Fox from saving the galaxy. One side is clearly shown to be fighting for the right while the other side is demonized for their cruel and dominating nature. It's not nearly as portrayed as morally grey as you imply as the story never goes out of its way to show it as such.

People talk of body count and ruthlessness, but is there even a source or lore bit that confirms either of these things for Wolf? I've heard of Leon being the sadistic psycho, but Wolf is merely just feral and aggressive.

And the fact that he hires a sadistic psycho does show a bigger lack of morality relative to other characters. Most hero characters are not going to employ a sadist, that's why Conquest's Peri gets so much hate as she doesn't work well with the heroes, so Wolf having Leon on his employ does show he's willing to employ those with less of a moral compass just as long as they get the job done.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Speaking about the ESRB rating during the beginning of the direct, will Ultimate be Rated T, like Melee & Brawl? Because I really want it back. Smash 4's rating felt off to me.

Smash 3DS / Wii U was less realistic than Brawl, and the censoring did help give those two games the E10+ rating. If Smash Ultimate is still censoring female Corrin's legs and putting a black void inside Peach's dress, then the E10+ rating seems likely for that game.

 

[Knight Dude]

I think differently. I don't see a Kojima Simon in Simon, I think they're tying to stick with any Nintendo game designs if they can.

That's possible. But that design did show up in Nintendo games. There's a DS Ninja Gaiden and NG3 was on Wii-U. I'm pretty sure he was also in DOA Dimensions.

So... everything then.

"Cut the legal stages to 10."
There are at least 15 eligible stages, not including Battlefield and Omega forms.

...WHAT!?

With the Hazard Toggle, shouldn't that number go up by a large margin? I mean, Wily Castle and Migar seem much more viable because of that.

 

[Sharkarat]

I think Galactia Knight as a Meta Knight Echo is likely.

We have this costume.

If Galacta was an Echo I don't think Meta Knight's color would be getting extra details.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Alright, then.

I don’t think Shadow is getting in, and will stay and Assist. I mean people say that Knuckles replaces Shadow, even though Shadow does something completely different from Knuckles. We also still have some assists left and Shadow is likley one of them, not to mention that we don’t really know if Sakurai wants to add a whole bunch of echoes for the sake of it, there are a lot of other possible echoes.

Also, I please don’t add Shadow. There’s something not right with him being added in. Even with Richter being added to Smash, I though Nintendo actually owed the series when I was watching the reveal, and with their history with Nintendo it just made more sense for them. I don’t like the idea of Shadow being our second Sonic Rep.

I am strongly inclined to believe that Sakurai's criteria of who can be an echo fighter is immensely loose. I think as long as the echo is popular within their franchise or is highly requested and can match the proportions of the original fighter, they can be in. Shadow is one of those echos that could easily please a lot of fans and can be matched to Sonic to be an echo. Those are the only reasons why I am very confident on him right now. They might not be substantial enough reasons, but they are factors that will greatly contribute to their chances of being considered for echo fighters. I think the rules for deciding echos are not as strict as unique newcomers.

Anyways, I think Chrom might’ve been decided earlier on. Unlike the other echoes, Chrom has the most differences with different recoveries and moves, and animations. Not to mention, that if Chrom is in, Robin would’ve needed a brand new final smash to begin with, and I don’t think they would’ve wanted to completely change someone’s else’s FS since Pair Up would’ve been fine on it’s own.

It seems Chrom was most likley planned pretty early on, even as an Echo, Chrom has a notable amount of differences and changes that would’ve affected Robin since the beginning of Smash Ultimate’s development

I think all echoes were decided late in development, just based on how no leaker has ever leaked any echos correctly thus far. I think every leak that holds some credibility like Vergeben has outdated project plan information, much like the Gematsu leak, aside from the leaks that leak directs a day before like 4chan E3 Direct leak.

 

[Mc.Rad]

You know, as much as I appreciate Squad Strike, Stage Morph, Stage Hazards Switch, and Final Smash Meters, we're still missing something big.

TILTING THE MENU WITH THE C-STICK

But seriously though, when is it going to be announced?

Because freakin Sakurai keeps doing dumb stuff like keeping games and more, not putting waluigi in, and also not putting deathborn in.

 

[KMDP]

That's possible. But that design did show up in Nintendo games. There's a DS Ninja Gaiden and NG3 was on Wii-U. I'm pretty sure he was also in DOA Dimensions.



With the Hazard Toggle, shouldn't that number go up by a large margin? I mean, Wily Castle, Migar, and Suzaku Castle seem much more viable because of that.

Doesn't vanilla Wily Castle have an extended floor? I thought that was considered bannable by itself. Something about wall jumps making them over dominant to characters who can?

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

For a change in topic since everyone seems to be back to discussion.

Ryu Hayabusa.

I don't see many people talk about like had in the past with Mega Man/Pac-Man/Simon. In fact, we talked about him less than even Heihachi Mishima. But he IS one of the few NES era characters that are "iconic" that aren't in the game in some form (R.I.P Bomberman). Other than Bill Rizer, who most people know as "Contra Man".

I'm pretty content with the roster as is. But if there's a bit more down the line, I think he's someone worth looking at.

I would love to have Bill and Lance as assist trophies. They could be all pixelated, jumping around and shooting with their guns in all directions. Bill could have the machine gun, while lance wields the spread gun.

 

[Knight Dude]

Doesn't vanilla Wily Castle have an extended floor? I thought that was considered bannable by itself. Something about wall jumps making them over dominant to characters who can?

Right, but wouldn't that be a counter pick situation? I thought that's what the stage ended up being, for a while anyhow.

 

[Guynamednelson]

The big thing is that a T rating limits the potential audience of the game.

Parents are much more inclined to buy their kids E10+ games over T rated games.

Source: was kid whose parents didn't buy him Melee because it was rated T. I had to beg them for Brawl, and since I'd played it at some friends houses they relented.

And yet Brawl and Melee outsold 64.

 

[Will]

I mean, Wily Castle and Migar seem much more viable because of that.

"Would you like Battlefield or Final Fantasyfield?"

The big thing is that a T rating limits the potential audience of the game.

Parents are much more inclined to buy their kids E10+ games over T rated games.

Source: was kid whose parents didn't buy him Melee because it was rated T. I had to beg them for Brawl, and since I'd played it at some friends houses they relented.

And yet kids still get GTA and shooter games en masse, but SMASH is where they draw the line?

 

[praline]

Another bonus if we get Ryu Hayabusa, you can Izuna Drop the whole cast.

I don’t imagine us getting 2 Ryu’s.

 

[Noipoi]

I'm a little disappointed. No matter how cool the remaining character trailers are, they probably won't be able to top laughing Dedede for me.

 

[Starbound]

I don't see morphs making it into comp, but I will be sorely disappointed with competitive players if we don't at least consider FS Meter. Supers in other fighting games have been perfectly fine, despite the obvious power that comes with it. Mario's only did 15% to Lucina, and while Marth's did KO Lucas at 20%, that's similar to most supers, and in other games, the super can be comboed into for often an insta-death combo string. Plus, final smashes are really hype inducing for spectators, due to being super moves.

I feel like conservatism is killing a lot of the fun that could come out of the game, because we keep inheriting the same ruleset game after game despite what is introduced. Logistics prevented customs from working, and killed off Miis unfortunately as a result. But FS meter is literally as much work as turning items off. And if we're looking at possibly having a toggle for rage, which the community will inevitably turn off, I don't see why this is different.

Stop being afraid to experiment I guess... I know I'm looking forward to having Hazards Off and FS Meter on so I can play Smash in a very different way from before. It'll, hopefully, be very refreshing.

 

[Will]

I don’t imagine us getting 2 Ryu’s.

Man what a bummer.

 

[FantasticMr.StarPit]

The only thing is that a T rating limits the potential audience of the game.

Parents are much more inclined to buy their kids E10+ games over T rated games.

Source: was kid whose parents didn't buy him Melee because it was rated T. I had to beg them for Brawl, and since I'd played it at some friends houses they relented.

I see, but if you look at it this way now, kids under or above 12 years of age play T- rated and even Mature rated games almost all the time. I'm not saying all them kids play T or M rated games but the majority of them do. Kids play Fortnite(the most popular game of the year) and that was T Rated. heck, even kids played GTA, Halo & Call of Duty and those were M- rated. So what does that stop Ultimate from limiting audiences when it means jack nowadays.

 

[Knight Dude]

I would love to have Bill and Lance as assist trophies. They could be all pixelated, jumping around and shooting with their guns in all directions. Bill could have the machine gun, while lance wields the spread gun.

Yeah, Bill and Lance(I forgot his name, but I remember Bill for whatever reason), I think would be better suited for Assists than Bomberman. Most of their moves are just shooting various guns. And unlike Mega Man and Samus, there's less melee attacks to pull from, as far as I know.

"Would you like Battlefield or Final Fantasyfield?"

Gotta get one of those 2 songs my *****.

I don’t imagine us getting 2 Ryu’s.

Probably. But in a world with 3 Links, 2 Marios, 3 Samuses, 2 Pits, it isn't impossible.

And Ultimate Marvel 3 had both Phoenix and Phoenix Wright. I imagine the announcer saying his whole name to set them apart.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Man what a bummer.

To be fair, one of the Roys is nothing more than a Bowser Jr. palette.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I see, but if you look at it this way now, kids under or above 12 years of age play T- rated and even Mature rated games almost all the time. I'm not saying all them kids play T or M rated games but the majority of them do. Kids play Fortnite(the most popular game of the year) and that was T Rated. heck, even kids played GTA, Halo & Call of Duty and those were M- rated. So what does that stop Ultimate from limiting audiences when it means jack nowadays.

It still limits audience.

Nintendo wants money. What do they rate their major holiday release?

T, which will limit their audience in some way, shape, or form and lead to less profits between the game and accessories?

OR

E10+, which doesn't limit their audience as much and leads to more overall profit than rating it T?

The choice is clear from a business standpoint.

 

[Will]

Gotta get one of those 2 songs my *****.

I'd imagine Midgar has some menial advantage for some character instead of Battlefield that makes it a viable stage to pick.

To be fair, one of the Roys is nothing more than a Bowser Jr. palette.

You know Ryu Hayabusa has a full name to use instead of just Ryu, right? If worse comes to worse they'll just call him Hayabusa.

It still limits audience.

Nintendo wants money. What do they rate their major holiday release?

T, which will limit their audience in some way, shape, or form and lead to less profits between the game and accessories?

OR

E10+, which doesn't limit their audience as much and leads to more overall profit than rating it T?

The choice is clear from a business standpoint.

The preview ESRB rating was RP to T, but nothing says it'll stay at T. If they really want to try and make it as E10+ as possible, I don't see anything that's stopping them from doing it outside of maybe Snake's entire existence.

 

[BluePikmin11]

For a change in topic since everyone seems to be back to discussion.

Ryu Hayabusa.

I don't see many people talk about like had in the past with Mega Man/Pac-Man/Simon. In fact, we talked about him less than even Heihachi Mishima. But he IS one of the few NES era characters that are "iconic" that aren't in the game in some form (R.I.P Bomberman). Other than Bill Rizer, who most people know as "Contra Man".

I'm pretty content with the roster as is. But if there's a bit more down the line, I think he's someone worth looking at.

If Koei Tecmo were to get a representative, it would definitely be him. Koei is one of the remaining big Japanese companies that has yet to have a playable character, contributing with Nintendo hardcore recently with the Nintendo Warrior games. But IDK, there are things about him that make me see him as unlikely. Like, Koei Tecmo today had not made much notable games recently that would put the company at the top of the video game industry. Level-5, even though they are a recent Japanese company, has very successful, impactful franchises like Snack World, Youkai Watch and Layton for me to think of the idea that Sakurai could find L5 to be worthy of playable representation in Smash. Koei is just kind of there these days, even though they collaborate with many companies on several projects. It makes me think that Koei Tecmo would be of lower priority, should Sakurai choose to add third parties from unrepresented companies outside of SEGA, Capcom, Namco, etc.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

For a change in topic since everyone seems to be back to discussion.

Ryu Hayabusa.

I don't see many people talk about like had in the past with Mega Man/Pac-Man/Simon. In fact, we talked about him less than even Heihachi Mishima. But he IS one of the few NES era characters that are "iconic" that aren't in the game in some form (R.I.P Bomberman). Other than Bill Rizer, who most people know as "Contra Man".

I'm pretty content with the roster as is. But if there's a bit more down the line, I think he's someone worth looking at.

Definitely. It helps that it came around Castlevania's time, so Sakurai would take care to incorporate elements from both the NES and modern versions of Ryu.

I can't believe they took Jesus off the cross for Smash Bros, holy ****.

I mean, Devil World's Tamagon trophy was taken out in the US for Melee because it mentioned Christianity stuff. It's a wonder that the Devil AT was even allowed to exist in all regions of later entries.

We've talked about him before. I think the current consensus is that he's locked away in Dead or Alive but time will tell. If you want an alternative, there was a Capcom equivalent on NES and sega but lets not worry about that.

Cool as he is, there's Capcom characters I'd want to see get in before him.

 

[KMDP]

I think all echoes were decided late in development, just based on how no leaker has ever leaked any echos correctly thus far. I think every leak that holds some credibility like Vergeben has outdated project plan information, much like the Gematsu leak, aside from the leaks that leak directs a day before like 4chan E3 Direct leak.

They could have outdated project plans, or incomplete project plans.

Right, but wouldn't that be a counter pick situation? I thought that's what the stage ended up being, for a while anyhow.

Hmm, maybe, not a competitive guy.

I don’t imagine us getting 2 Ryu’s.

We have two Roys. And if it's really a problem, they can just call him "Hayabusa" instead.

Marth's did KO Lucas at 20%, that's similar to most supers, and in other games

My theory, Marth and Lucina's Criticals are slower in FS Meter.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

I've been thinking about the 'Spirits' mode and think it might be the new mode Loz18 leaked way back then. He didn't give it a name, but the focus on villains and boss characters (Rathafos and Dracula were both fought on flat, featureless stages like an SSE boss. We've also got Metal Face back, as well as Yellow Devil, plus the rumored Pyrosphere for Ridley [maybe it has an alt version where Ridley shows up that's only used in Spirits?]).

He describes the mode as basically the Great Maze, which would be sick. The bosses would fit in here like a glove, and it would be a thematic mode for unlocking characters by collecting them.

Don't forget the Dark Emperor on the Find Mii stage. Also Rayquaza is a hazard on the Kalos Pokemon League stage, so the model is there if they want to bring him back as a boss. Wouldn't be shocked to see Petey and Porky make a return in some way as well.

 

[FantasticMr.StarPit]

It still limits audience.

Nintendo wants money. What do they rate their major holiday release?

T, which will limit their audience in some way, shape, or form and lead to less profits between the game and accessories?

OR

E10+, which doesn't limit their audience as much and leads to more overall profit than rating it T?

The choice is clear from a business standpoint.

Wasn't Brawl (a T rated game)the highest selling fighting game in the franchise? What was it, around 13.27 million copies. For Smash 3DS was 9.24 million and Wii U was 5.34 million. I'm not sure what you mean by limiting the audience my guy.

 

[N3ON]

Haven't been keeping up, have we touched on how loz18 is apparently laying low now until release? Recently said as much on gamefaqs.

Interesting because that's usually what happens when your source gets busted. Nothing's concrete, obv, but food for thought?

 

[KMDP]

Don't forget the Dark Emperor on the Find Mii stage. Also Rayquaza is a hazard on the Kalos Pokemon League stage, so the model is there if they want to bring him back as a boss. Wouldn't be shocked to see Petey and Porky make a return in some way as well.

EVERYBOSS IS HERE!​

 

[Will]

I think Ryu Hayabusa and Ninja Gaiden as a whole is pretty important to gaming, notably for being one of the first in the industry to fully utilize cutscenes. Does that mean he should get a spot compared to everyone else? Depends, is Sakurai aiming to add newer characters (Rex), fan favorites (literally any newcomer from yesterday), or someone that's important to history (PAC-MAN)?

Also Greninja is already the "ninja" that we have, all Ninja Gaiden has going for it is Castlevania-tier recognition and what I just described.

Though I wouldn't mind having that scene being replicated in a trailer.