Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Al-kīmiyā']

Neku should get in. Also, they are porting The World Ends With You to Switch.

 

[Freduardo]

It feels kinda weird that Ike returned for Smash 4 despite not being relevant. Heck, he was the third to last starter veteran being revealed (the next two were C.Falcon, and Meta Knight) I definitively think he returned because he was very popular back during the Brawl era unlike Wolf and Lucas as they weren't very popular back then.

Ike returned mostly because his moveset was too unique to lose and it wasn’t difficult to keep (like snake or ice climbers).

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

If I recall correctly, he said the same thing for Melee and Brawl, so him saying he's done really doesn't have much meaning.

True, the thing is though that this time around the guy is not getting any younger.

Sakurai hates competitive smash. This may be a speculation thread, but it still looks a bit silly to try to read my mind when all you had to do was ask me why.

Not really. Sakurai may have a weird phylosophy behind how he makes games, but the guy doesn't hate competitive Smash. He simply prefers casual play over competitive, but he is certainly ok with people playing the game the way they want it http://sourcegaming.info/2016/03/23/sakurai-briefly-discusses-smash-as-an-esport/
Smash 4 turned out ok from both sides, so hate is definitely a strong and innacurate word here.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It's more Sakurai hates some of the competitive mindset that has happened. Namely the higher than thou attitude, as well as cockiness and trying to ruin people's fun. That's what he's against. He wants everyone to enjoy the series, after all.

It's not easy making balance for both crowds, and he knows it. That's a big reason why he got Bandai-Namco to come along for 4, helping out. Melee and Brawl, while great games, have major balance issues in their own unique ways. And it's not something as simple as various Techs like L-Cancelling and Gliding either. It runs deeper. Balancing is not his forte, and he tries too hard to balance around casual(free for all with items) play, which leads to problems. He's aware of that, and realized it doesn't work that well. 4 is a good example of how harder balancing can be done, without taking away the casual aspect whatsoever. Melee went too competitive, with Brawl being too casual. Smash 64 lacked mostly stages and reasonable speed to play competitively on an immense level, as it was still geared more towards casuals(not to say it doesn't have competitive play, but it's not very common due to the stage list mostly).

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

I'm not going to get into a long discussion on it here, but a game as competitive as Melee can still be enjoyed casually, so there's no reason to water it down. The fact that Brawl and SSB4 were speaks for itself.

 

[Rosalinatehplumber]

I enjoyed playing Smash both casually and competitively. Though some take Smash way too seriously whether it's a casual or competitive. Just play whatever style you like and avoid drama. Most importantly, have fun with it!

 

[Deleted member]

I enjoyed playing Smash both casually and competitively. Though some take Smash way too seriously whether it's a casual or competitive. Just play whatever style you like and avoid drama. Most importantly, have fun with it!

Exactly, my friend. The purpose of Smash brothers is to have fun. We can all be competitive but I think the competitive community should stop shoving it down everyone's throat. Play competitive or casual.
What if Wave-Dashing () and L-Cancelling made a return?

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

So I have largely been absent from ongoing discussion both here and abroad with random visits every so often and the extended absences.

I do have one question for everyone: do we have any confirmation about a Smash Switch/5 or any concrete or otherwise leads regarding to development of the game? Or is this just going by the logic that “there will be a new game sometime so let’s talk about it now.”

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Expecting Nintendo to continue one of its best-selling franchises is pretty good (inductive) logic.

 

[N3ON]

So I have largely been absent from ongoing discussion both here and abroad with random visits every so often and the extended absences.

I do have one question for everyone: do we have any confirmation about a Smash Switch/5 or any concrete or otherwise leads regarding to development of the game? Or is this just going by the logic that “there will be a new game sometime so let’s talk about it now.”

There are rumours stemming from fairly credible sources such as Serkan Toto and Emily Rogers, but no, nothing official has been announced.

This whole section was a little premature, if you ask me. But I'm glad it's here. Better than being all crammed in one thread.

Expecting Nintendo to continue one of its best-selling franchises is pretty good (inductive) logic.

Typically this site only creates a section for a new Smash when the new Smash is actually confirmed to exist...

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

There are rumours stemming from fairly credible sources such as Serkan Toto and Emily Rogers, but no, nothing official has been announced.

This whole section was a little premature, if you ask me. But I'm glad it's here. Better than being all crammed in one thread.


Typically this site only creates a section for a new Smash when the new Smash is actually confirmed to exist...

Yeah, I thought the same thing when I saw the Smash Switch boards were actually opened. I was just wondering if we have anything, even if it’s rumors, to go off from. Hopefully, 2018 is a year for Smash news. Looking at past patterns, it seems likely we will get a Smash 5 release in 2020 or 2021 with a debut trailer a year or so before then with actual official confirmation a year before that putting that in 2018 if going by the 2020 release date. That’s also the Tokyo Olympics soooo....who knows.

 

[Deleted member]

We can all be competitive but I think the competitive community should stop shoving it down everyone's throat.

Nani kore? Let me just say this and get to sleep: they are neither forcing nor expecting one to play competitively. If anything, they motivate and inspire new players. Me? I do not follow that level of play but they inspire me to work on my Smash skills. It is really up to the player to decide whether or not to take it to the next level. Besides, there are better ways to make a living in this world.

Sayonara

EDIT: Damn, how did I miss this? Hey yo, @ShinyLegendary, read this again if you would please. After reading the posts after mine, it appears you meant what you said mostly in the context of Melee. Although my point still stands, I do believe you are in the right. Remind me to return that like to you later. No hard feelings, I hope.

Sayonara

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Nani kore? Let me just say this and get to sleep: they are neither forcing nor expecting one to play competitively. If anything, they motivate and inspire new players. Me? I do not follow that level of play but they inspire me to work on my Smash skills. It is really up to the player to decide whether or not to take it to the next level. Besides, there are better ways to make a living in this world.

Sayonara

He's likely talking about Melee's rather infamous toxicity around other Smash games and people who don't care for competitive Melee. Personally I feel Melee fans are a special breed of toxic considering the FGC but that's just me

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

It's more Sakurai hates some of the competitive mindset that has happened. Namely the higher than thou attitude, as well as cockiness and trying to ruin people's fun. That's what he's against. He wants everyone to enjoy the series, after all.

It's not easy making balance for both crowds, and he knows it. That's a big reason why he got Bandai-Namco to come along for 4, helping out. Melee and Brawl, while great games, have major balance issues in their own unique ways. And it's not something as simple as various Techs like L-Cancelling and Gliding either. It runs deeper. Balancing is not his forte, and he tries too hard to balance around casual(free for all with items) play, which leads to problems. He's aware of that, and realized it doesn't work that well. 4 is a good example of how harder balancing can be done, without taking away the casual aspect whatsoever. Melee went too competitive, with Brawl being too casual. Smash 64 lacked mostly stages and reasonable speed to play competitively on an immense level, as it was still geared more towards casuals(not to say it doesn't have competitive play, but it's not very common due to the stage list mostly).

Another problem with balancing is when certain fighters always get the short end of the stick. For one example, Zelda has often been among the worst fighters to use, whether it's for casual play or competitive play.

Of course, a lot of fighting game titles aren't complete without that one joke character who's just flat out bad to use.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Another problem with balancing is when certain fighters always get the short end of the stick. For one example, Zelda has often been among the worst fighters to use, whether it's for casual play or competitive play.

Of course, a lot of fighting game titles aren't complete without that one joke character who's just flat out bad to use.

Albeit, she wasn't created as a joke character, unlike Pichu. Jigglypuff was in Smash 64 as well, but it turned out she was deadly anyway.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Albeit, she wasn't created as a joke character, unlike Pichu. Jigglypuff was in Smash 64 as well, but it turned out she was deadly anyway.

While it's true that Zelda isn't supposed to be a joke fighter, when you think it over, she has been a bottom 5 fighter in all of her Smash Bros. appearances, with Melee being the only game where she's not ranked second worst. Since her debut in Melee, Zelda's fighting style has not worked out well against most of the other fighters, but part of the problem may be due to the developers not really trying to fix up her notable flaws from Melee and Brawl.

At least Jigglypuff had some good luck until Brawl took away its Melee glory. But now it's pretty much THE joke fighter of the Super Smash Bros. series.

 

[Cosmic77]

Forgot to reply to this earlier.

Lucas actually does have a possible reason for his exclusion. I've mentioned in the past that Sakurai had no way in knowing Mother 3 would be Japan exclusive when he was added to Brawl, and we know he isn't keen on the idea of those types of characters.
It's notable that Lucas wasn't one of the lower-priority characters of Brawl like Wolf was, yet was scrapped anyway just like him. And yet Toon Link, who was a lower-priority character like Wolf stayed.
So the only logical explanation is that Lucas being a Japan-exclusive character with no foreseeable future of being international is what put him on the chopping block more so than his "clone" status.

Wolf is the only one that could really apply to. But considering he was barely squeezed into Brawl at the last minute (with evidence that implies he was implemented after Sonic) as pretty much an afterthought, it would make sense that he'd be considered the most expendable character of Brawl.

Toon Link is essentially the successor to Young Link. Even if he barely made it in Brawl, two games with a Link clone helped TL's chances.

Even if that was the reason behind Lucas' absence, he had still made an appearance in a previous Smash game. It's not like we can compare Lucas to Takamaru, a character with a Japan exclusive game who had never been playable in Smash before. The publicity from Brawl alone should have been enough for people in Europe and NA to recognize him. Heck, more people probably knew about Lucas than they did Shulk, and Xenoblade got a worldwide release.

Bottomline, I still think his moveset had to be at least part of the reason why he got cut.

 

[Geno Boost]

i smashified a Game & watch character, its Fox from a game & watch game called Egg
i think he would be an interesting fighter and would have moveset based on the other Game & watch games that Mr. Game & Watch doesnt reference it as part of his moveset.

Spoiler

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Remember the pre-3D days when the gap between handheld and console wasn't super-massive and companies would port their games to Game Boy (or Gear in Sega's case)?

I think we're seeing something like that with the Switch. You don't get the best graphics or performance but you get portability and local multiplayer.

This could massively balloon the amount for 3rd parties eligible under the suspected rule of "series had to be on a Nintendo system".

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

While it's true that Zelda isn't supposed to be a joke fighter, when you think it over, she has been a bottom 5 fighter in all of her Smash Bros. appearances, with Melee being the only game where she's not ranked second worst. Since her debut in Melee, Zelda's fighting style has not worked out well against most of the other fighters, but part of the problem may be due to the developers not really trying to fix up her notable flaws from Melee and Brawl.

At least Jigglypuff had some good luck until Brawl took away its Melee glory. But now it's pretty much THE joke fighter of the Super Smash Bros. series.

That doesn't make her a joke character. It just means they can't figure out how to balance her moveset, while still keeping it similar to her previous one.

Joke characters are intentionally bad. Her moveset isn't intentionally bad. She was only meant to deal finishing blows. She's still doing that, but hasn't gained the necessary tools to do more than that.

 

[Diddy Kong]

With the Tropical Freeze port, it would now be an ENOURMOUS crime not to include a new DKC character. They literally have no excuse this time.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

This could massively balloon the amount for 3rd parties eligible under the suspected rule of "series had to be on a Nintendo system".

Even though it was never a rule in the first place. Sure, all the third parites have appeared on a Nintendo system, but wasn't it more of a courtesy?

 

[Guybrush20X6]

That doesn't make her a joke character. It just means they can't figure out how to balance her moveset, while still keeping it similar to her previous one.

Joke characters are intentionally bad. Her moveset isn't intentionally bad. She was only meant to deal finishing blows. She's still doing that, but hasn't gained the necessary tools to do more than that.

I think of all characters in the cast, Zelda is in the most need of a "tear it down and start over" style rework. Ganondorf (the popular target for such a thing) be more brawler than sorcerer/black knight but his moveset works as intended.

Even though it was never a rule in the first place. Sure, all the third parites have appeared on a Nintendo system, but wasn't it more of a courtesy?

Hence the "suspected". I think the real thing was the better business relationship between the company, the more likely it was.

For anyone that played FFVII it's rather fitting it's that game's MC that showed us how much we thought we knew was all in our heads.

 

[IronTed]

Even though it was never a rule in the first place. Sure, all the third parites have appeared on a Nintendo system, but wasn't it more of a courtesy?

If you really want to go far back, Final Fantasy basically began on Nintendo.

Like, it's hard to think of a big third party game that never was on Nintendo. Even the DS got that GTA spinoff title. Unless you're advocating for someone from The Evil Within, that rule is rather meaningless.

Edit: of course anything over 10 years ago is likely irrelevant now

 

[Guybrush20X6]

With the Tropical Freeze port, it would now be an ENOURMOUS crime not to include a new DKC character. They literally have no excuse this time.

Funky Kong for SSS+ Tier.

 

[Cosmic77]

With the Tropical Freeze port, it would now be an ENOURMOUS crime not to include a new DKC character. They literally have no excuse this time.

Just depends on how well it sells really. If it sells 1.5-2.0 million copies or so before the next Black Friday, I can see Nintendo frequently promoting it in a holiday ad, allowing it to sell even more. If that were to happen, Sakurai can't really ignore DK's presence when choosing characters for the next roster.

Even though it was never a rule in the first place. Sure, all the third parites have appeared on a Nintendo system, but wasn't it more of a courtesy?

I'm sure Sakurai focuses more on the iconicness of the character more than whether or not they appeared on a Nintendo console. Course, I still have my doubts about iconic characters from franchises owned by (or exclusive to) Sony or Microsoft. Guess we'll have to see how much Sakurai is willing to fight for someone like Master Chief.

 

[Opossum]

Even though it was never a rule in the first place. Sure, all the third parites have appeared on a Nintendo system, but wasn't it more of a courtesy?

I still stand by the belief that the whole "courtesy" thing was just Sakurai trying to be polite about it and that it absolutely is one of his rules.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

If you really want to go far back, Final Fantasy basically began on Nintendo.

Like, it's hard to think of a big third party game that never was on Nintendo. Even the DS got that GTA spinoff title. Unless you're advocating for someone from The Evil Within, that rule is rather meaningless.

Edit: of course anything over 10 years ago is likely irrelevant now

Yes, Final Fantasy did begin on Nintendo, but Cloud comes from the game that caused Square to straight up stop making mainline FF games for Nintendo.

Also, they could have picked literally anyone from the first six games, so it's not like Cloud was the only option. Sakurai even brought some ideas from those games, like Terra or Bartz.

So really, iconicness seems to at least be as important as appearing on a Nintendo console, if not more.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yes, Final Fantasy did begin on Nintendo, but Cloud comes from the game that caused Square to straight up stop making mainline FF games for Nintendo.

Also, they could have picked literally anyone from the first six games, so it's not like Cloud was the only option. Sakurai even brought some ideas from those games, like Terra or Bartz.

So really, iconicness seems to at least be as important as appearing on a Nintendo console, if not more.

Iconicness was the main reason.

All Sakurai said was that he wasn't sure if he'd have added Cloud if he had no Nintendo appearances. It was very clear that it was at best a maybe. And nothing more than that. People are putting too much stock into the whole Nintendo appearance thing, when he's never once indicated it's a requirement, just something he takes into consideration. Even from the start, he never suggested such a thing. It's not some PR Speak either, and it definitely wasn't enforced in the Smash Ballot either(and for good reasons). He isn't letting less important things hold his character choices back. Obviously having a previous Nintendo appearance can make it far easier to license a character, but that's as far as it goes for any real importance.

 

[Deleted member]

That doesn't make her a joke character. It just means they can't figure out how to balance her moveset, while still keeping it similar to her previous one.

Joke characters are intentionally bad. Her moveset isn't intentionally bad. She was only meant to deal finishing blows. She's still doing that, but hasn't gained the necessary tools to do more than that.

No, Sakurai initially designed her as a joke character. He said as much in her profile in Melee.
Just that Pichu was designed to be as such in Melee instead.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

With the Tropical Freeze port, it would now be an ENOURMOUS crime not to include a new DKC character. They literally have no excuse this time.

It's too bad that our good old reptilian tyrant hasn't seen the spotlight since Mario Super Sluggers.

 

[Deleted member]

With the Tropical Freeze port, it would now be an ENOURMOUS crime not to include a new DKC character. They literally have no excuse this time.

Funky Kong for SSS+ Tier.

You joke, but Funky would make for a unique fighting style to where it'd be a shame to pass up.

 

[Rosalinatehplumber]

Toon Link is essentially the successor to Young Link. Even if he barely made it in Brawl, two games with a Link clone helped TL's chances.

Even if that was the reason behind Lucas' absence, he had still made an appearance in a previous Smash game. It's not like we can compare Lucas to Takamaru, a character with a Japan exclusive game who had never been playable in Smash before. The publicity from Brawl alone should have been enough for people in Europe and NA to recognize him. Heck, more people probably knew about Lucas than they did Shulk, and Xenoblade got a worldwide release.

Bottomline, I still think his moveset had to be at least part of the reason why he got cut.

Speaking of Lucas. Apparently he has unused references for custom moves including parameters. There are no unused custom moves data for the other DLC fighters.
Link: https://gamebanana.com/wips/47992

 

[Deleted member]

You joke, but Funky would make for a unique fighting style to where it'd be a shame to pass up.

I actually quite like Funky Kong's design. Maybe he can be a skin for DK, or a unique fighter. I mean, he is just so cool to look at.

 

[KingOfTheFools]

My Hopes For The Next Smash Bros

Smash Wii U came out with an absolutely massive roster but which characters really deserve their spots? This is Nintendo's All-Stars (looking at you Dark Pit) after all, not a roster full of any old characters.

For the next Smash Bros, I want the roster to be cut down to about 30, the definitive roster of Nintendo's most beloved characters. At the start, I want little to no newcomers, apart from the Inkling. All the characters should be revised and clones de-cloned, with new movesets. This way, all the fighters can feel fresh. Even mainstays such as Mario and Link should be bought up to date, perhaps with a new Cappy move for Mario (not one that can capture players, that'd be broken) or a Link based around Breath Of The Wild. Then, they can take the Splatoon / ARMS route and have frequent updates with new characters and modes.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

My Hopes For The Next Smash Bros

Smash Wii U came out with an absolutely massive roster but which characters really deserve their spots? This is Nintendo's All-Stars (looking at you Dark Pit) after all, not a roster full of any old characters.

For the next Smash Bros, I want the roster to be cut down to about 30, the definitive roster of Nintendo's most beloved characters. At the start, I want little to no newcomers, apart from the Inkling. All the characters should be revised and clones de-cloned, with new movesets. This way, all the fighters can feel fresh. Even mainstays such as Mario and Link should be bought up to date, perhaps with a new Cappy move for Mario (not one that can capture players, that'd be broken) or a Link based around Breath Of The Wild. Then, they can take the Splatoon / ARMS route and have frequent updates with new characters and modes.

I actually think this would be a cool idea; the roster starts off smaller than Smash 4 but then we go the Splatoon/ARMS route and get free updates every month, be it beloved veterans or cool newcomers.

At the same time I can't see them dropping the objectively more profitable practice of DLC for this.

 

[Cosmic77]

With the Tropical Freeze port, it would now be an ENOURMOUS crime not to include a new DKC character. They literally have no excuse this time.

It's too bad that our good old reptilian tyrant hasn't seen the spotlight since Mario Super Sluggers.

I actually quite like Funky Kong's design. Maybe he can be a skin for DK, or a unique fighter. I mean, he is just so cool to look at.

Now that I think about it, which DK character would be most likely at this moment? K. Rool has the most support with no recent appearances, whereas Cranky has plenty of recent appearances but very little fan support. Dixie is another popular character who has been playable in numerous Donkey Kong games, but Funky Kong has been around longer than Dixie and has had more appearances, even making it into Mario Kart Wii.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Now that I think about it, which DK character would be most likely at this moment? K. Rool has the most support with no recent appearances, whereas Cranky has plenty of recent appearances but very little fan support. Dixie is another popular character who has been playable in numerous Donkey Kong games, but Funky Kong has been around longer than Dixie and has had more appearances, even making it into Mario Kart Wii.

Why not all the above?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Why not all the above?

Because three newcomers for a single franchise in a single game is going to have people complain for absolutely no reason at all regardless of the franchise.

Just look at Fire Emblem.

 

[Cosmic77]

If I had to take a wild guess, I'd say Dixie is the most likely. She was considered for Brawl, so it's clear that Sakurai acknowledges her as a possible character.

Because three newcomers for a single franchise in a single game is going to have people complain for absolutely no reason at all regardless of the franchise.

Just look at Fire Emblem.

C'mon, you have to admit that even with the revival following Awakening, FE didn't do enough to warrant tripling it's characters from Brawl.