Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Omega Tyrant]

also I have to laugh at how he just put all of the unconfirmed stages on the "returning stages" list except miiverse

To be fair, that could actually happen, it was just said not all stages would return, which could just be Miiverse not returning, as that's technically not all stages and thus they wouldn't be able to claim it.

That said I'm very doubtful all the redundant stages like the Flat Zones would return.

 

[Will]

I completely unjustifiably blame Pit for the bias Kid Icarus has received and how the Zelda series is not being well represented and full of clones considering its importance to Nintendo.

And then Dark Pit came along to confirm my BS headcanon. Yeah yeah - blah blah no dev time, but Dark Pit did receive a unique crowd chant and victory theme, while the two Links shared a chant in Sm4sh and Ganondorf is the only antagonist who still has a hero's victory.

Don't worry, I know it's not true. But I still am totally biased against Kid Icarus.

I know it's your opinon, but that doesn't make a lot of sense to hate something for a reason you is invalid to hate it for. I'm surprised you don't hate Fire Emblem for the same reason.

 

[Zinith]

To be fair, that could actually happen, it was just said not all stages would return, which could just be Miiverse not returning, as that's technically not all stages and thus they wouldn't be able to claim it.

That said I'm very doubtful all the redundant stages like the Flat Zones would return.

I think portions of Flat Zone 1 and 2 are even IN Flat Zone X.

Although it's not impossible to have two stages with the same mechanic but different themes in the same game (Pokemon Stadium 1 & 2 in Brawl for example)

 

[KMDP]

To be fair, that could actually happen, it was just said not all stages would return, which could just be Miiverse not returning, as that's technically not all stages and thus they wouldn't be able to claim it.

That said I'm very doubtful all the redundant stages like the Flat Zones would return.

But we seem to have both versions of Pokémon Stadium coming back.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

I think portions of Flat Zone 1 and 2 are even IN Flat Zone X.

Although it's not impossible to have two stages with the same mechanic but different themes in the same game (Pokemon Stadium 1 & 2 in Brawl for example)

Yeah, Flat Zone X is just a fusion of the two stages that cycles through each of their transformations, and thus individually they are completely redundant, so there's no reason to bring them back unless Sakurai really wanted to bring back every non-Miiverse stage.

 

[Shroob]

The thing with clones is that they get added late in development to pad the roster. I doubt Echo Fighters are any different. So assuming Dry Bowser started off as a costume for Bowser like the clone trio in Smash 4 and probably Daisy as well, if Sakurai waned to upgrade him to his own character then he will, relevancy be damned.

That said, while I support him I'm not expecting him, since Alph is still an alt and I imagine he'd take priority among potential alts-to-Echo Fighters.

That's the thing that 'irks' me though.

Even with all the clones and echoes that we've ever had, they've played an actual major role in their franchise and in Smash itself.


? Zelda's main antagonist.

? A smaller, faster Link that represents half of OoT and Majora's Mask.

? Basically the P2 of Star Fox and one of the main characters of the series.

? Represents Generation 2.

? Is the protagonist of his own game.

? Represents an entire spinoff of the Mario series.

? One of the 3 real protagonists of "The game that saved Fire Emblem blah blah blah".

? Pit's rival, a bit akin to Falco honestly, and also a playable character in said game.

? Pretty much one of the last 'main' Mario characters you could even add alongside Waluigi.



And what's Dry Bowser?


He's, a boss in like, World 7 of two Mario games?

He just feels a lot less 'impactful' than a lot of Echo fighters.


Shadow and Dark Samus make sense since they play huge rolls in their games. Isabelle makes sense, because she's basically a Nintendo icon at this point, but.... Dry Bowser? He's just a boss from like, 1-2 worlds in random Mario games.


That'd be like making Boom Boom a echo fighter of Bowser Jr.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Yeah, Flat Zone X is just a fusion of the two stages that cycles through each of their transformations, and thus individually they are completely redundant, so there's no reason to bring them back unless Sakurai really wanted to bring back every non-Miiverse stage.

OR it could be that we aren't getting Flat Zone X and instead both of the Flat Zones separately.

I doubt it'll happen but still a possibility.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

But we seem to have both versions of Pokémon Stadium coming back.

The two Pokemon Stadiums have different aesthetics and completely different transformations, Flat Zone X is just a literal fusion of the two Flat Zones, using their same exact transformations, so there's no reason for the two individual Flat Zones to exist beyond completionist sake.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

View attachment 155713

First one is obviously fake because it mentions DLC. That and Tails is pseudo-deconfirmed already because of the Green Hill Zone stage.

I WANT THE SECOND ONE TO BE REAL SO BADLY! It seems like a dream come true for me but unfortunately that one is a likely fake as well because he claims to be working on Sora Ltd. which consists of only Sakurai and his wife as far as I'm aware of. Also claiming your helping develop the game is a dead giveaway as a fake because no one working on the game would dump all the info to the public like that.

But hey, it did predict Delfino Plaza so I guess it has that going for it.

Wait what? I have never heard of this guy. What makes him credible?

Dunno. Someone posted a screenshot of this guy on the thread earlier. I believe it was NintenZ

There has been a lot of discussion about the guy in the Ashley thread apparently.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

Wasn’t that the one that said Buzzwole was a grappler? I was thinking about that one too but I didn’t remember if it had Isabelle or not.

It can always be Incineroar with the "grappler" thing due to it being a wrestling type of Pokemon

I'll be very upset if Zeraora is the Pokémon Verge is talking about. I don't want that thing in the game!

I really oppose Zeraora for this reason. Its that one Pokémon I don't want ANYWHERE! near Smash. Its supporters are cool but the Pokémon its self is next level cheesy. I thought I was opposed to Decidueye but I would to take Deci over it in a heartbeat. Actually, Decidueye is just behind Incineroar as my only other exceptional gen 7 Pokémon newcomer now.

Zeraora, even its name is cringe. This Pokémon, my brain cannot comprehend. I just can't. Why?

I hope your tears are delicious because I'd like for him to make it

2 pokemon reps is completely out of the question. if we get anymore, will be 8th gen dlc promotion.

If we get incineroar, watch how immediatly a good portion of Sceptile and Decidueye fanbases immediatley will migrate to whoever grass starter we get on 8th gen. :3

Wait for them to jump shift to maybe the 9th or 10th generation depends on when the next

For the Pokémon rep, two words:

Alolan Marowak.

I'd be down for this

We'd get another Gen 1 rep

I plan on making an analysis on what went wrong with my prediction with Lycanroc and possible PKMN choices sometime next week. I have to admit, I am sad that Ultimate might not get a fighter that would be a spiritual successor to Zoroark in terms of moveset potential and characterization, but this current moment of speculation is motivating me to write in-depth again.

Blue, no offense man, but Zoroark is far of a spiritual successor of Lucario. Pokemon Company just tried to milk Zoroark down our throats as the next big thing after Lucario, and they failed.

Then again, you're jumping the gun on this and might want to hold all your analysis before everyone works you to death

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20...th_will_be_released_in_japan_on_29th_november

Well, well, well, well, well, it looks like DaybreakHorizon will have more credence to add for favoring Joker in Smash.

Add me to that! I'd gladly take Joker in Smash just to make people freak out

ALL OUT ATTACK!!!

Here's a neat observation from the EVO footage at least. You no longer take damage in sudden death; you appear to be locked at 300%. Evidence, this match:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svA5H5y3BlU

Well, apparently not. This is the downside of tenths digit precision on percents...

Ganondorf looks a LOT faster here! I can easily see him being mid tier

This is an intense conversation. Let's talk about what kind of coffee Ridley would like instead.

The tears of waiting 17 long years coffee

Still waiting on Crash Bandicoot leaks. I have a feeling he'll hit the DLC

 

[Will]

? Pretty much one of the last 'main' Mario characters you could even add alongside Waluigi.

As much as I hate the idea of his inclusion

I'm on the team that puts Waluigi on the new Ridley tier.
Never ever until Sakurai caves in or just stops directing.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

OR it could be that we aren't getting Flat Zone X and instead both of the Flat Zones separately.

I doubt it'll happen but still a possibility.

That could very well happen, but in that case a stage still ends up redundant and probably cut.

 

[KMDP]

The two Pokemon Stadiums have different aesthetics and completely different transformations, Flat Zone X is just a literal fusion of the two Flat Zones, using their same exact transformations, so there's no reason for the two individual Flat Zones to exist beyond completionist sake.

Yeah, I agree with the Flat Zone ones, at the very least.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

That's the thing that 'irks' me though.

Even with all the clones and echoes that we've ever had, they've played an actual major role in their franchise and in Smash itself.


? Zelda's main antagonist.

? A smaller, faster Link that represents half of OoT and Majora's Mask.

? Basically the P2 of Star Fox and one of the main characters of the series.

? Represents Generation 2.

? Is the protagonist of his own game.

? Represents an entire spinoff of the Mario series.

? One of the 3 real protagonists of "The game that saved Fire Emblem blah blah blah".

? Pit's rival, a bit akin to Falco honestly, and also a playable character in said game.

? Pretty much one of the last 'main' Mario characters you could even add alongside Waluigi.



And what's Dry Bowser?


He's, a boss in like, World 7 of two Mario games?

He just feels a lot less 'impactful' than a lot of Echo fighters.


Shadow and Dark Samus make sense since they play huge rolls in their games. Isabelle makes sense, because she's basically a Nintendo icon at this point, but.... Dry Bowser? He's just a boss from like, 1-2 worlds in random Mario games.


That'd be like making Boom Boom a echo fighter of Bowser Jr.

One could argue that Dry Bowser appearing as a boss in some of the mainline titles makes him more important to the series than Daisy by default.....

That aside, I can see where you're coming from though honestly I think it's better we just agree to disagree before we start getting into flame territory.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Yes, it was. Scored way higher than Rayman over there according to Source Gaming. You can check out her RTC and when they looked back over the characters they rated for an explanation.
And oh my god, the engrish in that leak kills me. Like, why not just say them in English and if you're strictly using the Japanese they should be calling Echo Fighters Dash Fighters instead.

Source Gaming, while mostly unbiased, still has some bias, especially in their Rate That Character series. The example you gave, Rayman, ranks lower than Shovel Knight and Shantae despite already appearing in a Smash Bros. game and the positive relationship between Ubisoft and Nintendo, with Nintendo allowing Ubisoft to use Mario for Mario & Rabbids Kingdom Battle. Similarly, Nintendo allowed Atlus to use Fire Emblem for Tokyo Mirage Sessions. To play Devil's Advocate, Nintendo has covered Puyo Puyo in the West in the past, so that's a point for you.

Their Rate That Character video gives some good critiques, like Lip being competition and Puyo Puyo being a niche series in the west, but seems biased overall, with the recap beginning with:

Puyo Puyo is undoubtedly the next big Sega series to be included in Smash, with the exception of potentially Shin Megami Tensei which has many of the same issues Puyo Puyo faces.

The evaluation was seemingly done by 1 person or a small team, and the Rate That Character series is ultimately an opinion piece.

In looking at their Mega Smash poll, Arle and Joker scored similarly, with Joker having one more vote than Arle (27 and 26 respectively).

Both were horribly outclassed by Sonic characters though (the difference being over 100 votes), so is this debate really worth it?

Not really, no.

I return to my previous point:

 

[perfectchaos83]

Wait what? I have never heard of this guy. What makes him credible?

https://smashboards.com/threads/smash-ultimate-discussion.434391/page-2710#post-22254015

That's probably the most accurate info. Lupensko posts in some vergeben threads that pretty much backs up what vergeben says. But nothing detailed.

 

[Logo12]

Anyone here that can do a proper translation of it? Anyway it is very interesting to see there's only two leaks on 4chan that fulfills the criteria of Belmont, Isabelle, and gen 7 pokemon that isn't Decidueye/Mimikyu/Lycanroc.

It speaks about:

• one who is interested in words (Typographers?)
• a certain "Jeno" (pronounced Jen and not Gene)
• some kind of Sizzle
• a Bandai Rope-capture
• an Echo Battling Machine
• a shadowed conspiracy Hedgehog (without bothering to translate Hedgehog)
• a Bowser echo (without mentioning who)
• a "revealing" (the nudity kind) trailer for a certain Subspace's Emmisary
• a partial space of a pokemon
• elecroftonplan
• pay maario
• Flat zone repeated twice (no numbering or X)
• Wool Word
• Hanenbowl (Although an "Elecroftonplan" exists already)
• Jungle He-jinxs

etc.

If any of you knows japanese, be sure to read that thing. It's really a blast to read.

EDIT: If you're wondering about the "gen7 pokemon slot" this fake leak made to fit vegetable's "criteria", it's incineroar. Full translation coming soon

EDITEDIT:

Underlined are translation mistakes, Red-colored are ones that the fake leak didn't bother translating into English, and Brown colored (basically just the word "Echo", and maybe "Subspace Emissary" + other stuff noted in the footnotes) are ones that the fake leak didn't bother checking the actual Japanese name of the terms.

The thing look likes someone typed a paragraph in English, took a few letters, googletranslated it into Japanese, then took/swapped a few letters again.

Who else is excited to play on 2 identical Flat Zones and Rainbow Cruises tho? Can't wait

 

[Pakky]

Spoiler: LaboMan?

yep

 

[Omega Tyrant]

First one is obviously fake because it mentions DLC. That and Tails is pseudo-deconfirmed already because of the Green Hill Zone stage.

Not necessarily, despite PR speak DLC is regularly planned before the game finishes; it was certainly the case for Smash 4 despite Sakurai's statements that DLC wouldn't be considered until the game released, where besides the Gematsu leak claiming DLC was being planned, Mewtwo was clearly in development before Smash 3DS released, and from the timeline Lucas/Roy/Ryu probably were in development before 3DS released too (as a new Smash character can take over a year to make and they released within 9 months of Smash3DS' Japanese release).

As for Tails, he is just a minor background character, so he could just not show up when a playable Tails is in play, just like the Alphonso situation and Dedede on Dream Land.

 

[Will]

Spoiler: LaboMan?

yep

That is one depressed labo man, man.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

The idea of Dry Bowser being an Echo is hilarious and depressing at the same time

 

[blazefan519]

Source Gaming, while mostly unbiased, still has some bias, especially in their Rate That Character series. The example you gave, Rayman, ranks lower than Shovel Knight and Shantae despite already appearing in a Smash Bros. game and the positive relationship between Ubisoft and Nintendo, with Nintendo allowing Ubisoft to use Mario for Mario & Rabbids Kingdom Battle. Similarly, Nintendo allowed Atlus to use Fire Emblem for Tokyo Mirage Sessions. To play Devil's Advocate, Nintendo has covered Puyo Puyo in the West in the past, so that's a point for you.

Their Rate That Character video gives some good critiques, like Lip being competition and Puyo Puyo being a niche series in the west, but seems biased overall, with the recap beginning with:


The evaluation was seemingly done by 1 person or a small team, and the Rate That Character series is ultimately an opinion piece.

In looking at their Mega Smash poll, Arle and Joker scored similarly, with Joker having one more vote than Arle (27 and 26 respectively). The two are likely really close in terms of chances, and it's up to opinion.

Both were outclassed by Sonic characters though (the difference being over 100 votes), so is this debate really worth it?

Not really, no.

I return to my previous point:

I agree wholeheartedly. Never really had the chance to play Persona games since besides the Q series, none of them have came to Nintendo consoles. So perhaps if one of their characters got into Smash, we could see a Persona 4 port considering how that game never seems to die lol. I'd like for them both to be in.

Dunno. Someone posted a screenshot of this guy on the thread earlier. I believe it was NintenZ

There has been a lot of discussion about the guy in the Ashley thread apparently.

https://smashboards.com/threads/smash-ultimate-discussion.434391/page-2710#post-22254015

That's probably the most accurate info. Lupensko posts in some vergeben threads that pretty much backs up what vergeben says. But nothing detailed.

Thanks so this is a guy we should keep watch of then.

 

[Idon]

The idea of Dry Bowser being an Echo is hilarious and depressing at the same time

It could not possibly be more ridiculous than Mario cosplaying as a doctor.

 

[Shroob]

It could not possibly be more ridiculous than Mario cosplaying as a doctor.

Not even close.

Dr.Mario represents the Dr.Mario series of video games, which still had new games being made up to Smash 4 with Dr.Luigi.

Dry Bowser is... a boss in a few Mario games.


To put it simply, Dry Bowser being in would be akin to Meowser being in.

 

[Pretty Roger]

Dry Bowser is not important to the Mario Series, and based on his canon appearance, he is the same being as normal Bowser, Dark Pit plays an important role in his series and is a different being from Pit. Daisy deserved her spot just cause she is the second female character with most videogame appearances in HISTORY, if you think she is not relevant, it's cause you don't want to face the truth.

Also i think is highly likely that Echo Fighters were planned from the start, Sakurai new that there wouldn't be a lot of new fighters cause the premise is bringing everyone back, so he made that term to have more new faces in the game in some way, for some reason people assume he just randomly thought in a name and a concept for "clones" and then he was going to put just a couple of them in the game last minute.

I have been thinking that instead of a "Fact Extravaganza" we are going to get an "Echo Showcase"

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Not even close.

Dr.Mario represents the Dr.Mario series of video games, which still had new games being made up to Smash 4 with Dr.Luigi.

Dry Bowser is... a boss in a few Mario games.


To put it simply, Dry Bowser being in would be akin to Meowser being in.

Except Dry Bowser frequently appears in spin offs and is super popular among the Mario crowd.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I agree wholeheartedly. Never really had the chance to play Persona games since besides the Q series, none of them have came to Nintendo consoles. So perhaps if one of their characters got into Smash, we could see a Persona 4 port considering how that game never seems to die lol. I'd like for them both to be in.


Thanks so this is a guy we should keep watch of then.

Don't make me get my hopes up. ;_;

It's so stupid that Persona 4 Golden is locked to the Playstation Vita. It had so much potential, but was let down by Sony, the company that made it in the first place.

 

[Shroob]

Except Dry Bowser frequently appears in spin offs and is super popular among the Mario crowd.

I mean, so is Waluigi.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

Not even close.

Dr.Mario represents the Dr.Mario series of video games, which still had new games being made up to Smash 4 with Dr.Luigi.

Dry Bowser is... a boss in a few Mario games.


To put it simply, Dry Bowser being in would be akin to Meowser being in.

To be fair, I think the novelty of being a semi-important character in the Mario series that can be made into an easy clone may be enough to get into Smash. Not saying I support Dry Bowser, but as minor of a character as he is, he's still more recognizable than half the Smash roster.

 

[Idon]

Don't make me get my hopes up. ;_;

It's so stupid that Persona 4 Golden is locked to the Playstation Vita, a handheld that had so much potential, but was let down by Sony, the company that made it in the first place.

The Vita is the fanciest paper weight I have ever bought.
That said, Soul Sacrifice and P4G are pretty fun games.

 

[blazefan519]

I mean, so is Waluigi.

But Waluigi hasn't appeared in any main games and couldn't be an Echo

 

[Honest Slug]

I mean, so is Waluigi.

You can't make Waluigi an echo without it looking like a "Pika Man"

 

[Will]

Except Dry Bowser frequently appears in spin offs and is super popular among the Mario crowd.

That sounds more like Waluigi to me.

 

[Zinith]

Wow, if people are getting this hot and bothered over the idea of Dry Bowser being in Smash, maybe my statement of Boshi getting noticed without fanfare is wrong...

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

So, if we're getting a reveal at EVO it's going to be tomorrow, right?

What should we be looking out for?

 

[Shroob]

You can't make Waluigi an echo without it looking like a "Pika Man"

I wasn't really going off of the 'echo' aspect as much as I was the popularity part.


Let's be real, aside from he who shall not be named, I don't think 'popularity' plays a massive role in who gets in Smash, Sakurai puts in who he deems fit.

 

[Idon]

So, if we're getting a reveal at EVO it's going to be tomorrow, right?

What should we be looking out for?

Disappointment mostly.

 

[vaanrose]

Shroob

I blame Dry Bowser's popularity on Project M, lol. There's a lot of alts they implemented I believe have zero chance of ever getting in that people nevertheless constantly request get in (like Mr. L or Anime Armor Mewtwo), and Dry Bowser is one of them.

 

[blazefan519]

So, if we're getting a reveal at EVO it's going to be tomorrow, right?

What should we be looking out for?

Who knows really. I've seen people say Ashley since WW Gold just released so maybe here? We might just get a reveal the day after EVO like Robin and Lucina back in Smash 4.

 

[KMDP]

It speaks about:

• one who is interested in words (Typographers?)
• a certain "Jeno" (pronounced Jen and not Gene)
• some kind of Sizzle
• a Bandai Rope-capture
• an Echo Battling Machine
• a shadowed conspiracy Hedgehog (without bothering to translate Hedgehog)
• a Bowser echo (without mentioning who)
• a "revealing" (the nudity kind) trailer for a certain Subspace's Emmisary
• a partial space of a pokemon
• elecroftonplan
• pay maario
• Flat zone repeated twice (no numbering or X)
• Wool Word
• Hanenbowl (Although an "Elecroftonplan" exists already)
• Jungle He-jinxs

etc.

If any of you knows japanese, be sure to read that thing. It's really a blast to read.

EDIT: If you're wondering about the "gen7 pokemon slot" this fake leak made to fit vegetable's "criteria", it's incineroar. Full translation coming soon

While I don't know Japanese, I know enough about it to know why Jungle Hijinxs would become Jungle He-Jinxs. XD

For those who know nothing about Japanese, it's because they presumably wrote "ジャングル・ヒージンクス" (Janguru Hijnkusu) rather than the correct "ジャングル・ハイジンクス" (Janguru Haijinkusu)

Of course, that's not getting into the fact that Jungle Hijinxs is called "Banana Jungle" in Japan anyway.