Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Cosmic77]

Makes you wonder if they take into account someone's ease of hunting the Smash Ball when balancing Final Smashes.

Although it's probably a coincidence, that would help explain why Rosalina and Villager have some of the worst Final Smashes.

 

[Ura]

As for Isaac, he was a B-tier franchise at best that only had the first two games do well because the GBA wasn't saturated with new RPGs like the DS. When it came time for the third game to stand out and prove that Golden Sun was an important franchise worth considering, it failed. Golden Sun might have been recent during character consideration for Smash 4 but it wasn't ever an crucial franchise to Nintendo and by the start of this decade, it had become irrelevant. Unless Golden Sun can get a successful Switch installment, it will never get a playable character.

That's a very VERY faulty metric.

Fire Emblem and Xenoblade got playable characters at a time when neither series was that popular. Especially Xenoblade which was still very niche before Shulk got in to Smash 4.

And Dark Dawn released a whooping 7 years after The Lost Age. Combine that with the fact that DD was released towards the end of the DS's lifespan and the critical reception of DD and it's easy to see why it sold the way it did. It's not an indictment on the part of the Golden Sun franchise as a whole and especially not on Isaac's chances for Smash Bros.

Not to mention Dark Dawn did 700,000 worldwide which might not be a huge number but it's still pretty decent considering the factors regarding DD's release.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

That's a very VERY faulty metric.

Fire Emblem and Xenoblade got playable characters at a time when neither series was that popular. Especially Xenoblade which was still very niche before Shulk got in to Smash 4.

Xenoblade was only localized in America after fans campaigned for it and Sakurai said Shulk was highly requested in Japan, it's not as niche as you're making it out to be for Smash fans

 

[Ura]

Xenoblade was only localized in America after fans campaigned for it and Sakurai said Shulk was highly requested in Japan, it's not as niche as you're making it out to be for Smash fans

You'd be hard pressed to find many people that knew about Shulk before Smash 4, myself included. Maybe Xeno was popular among some gamers but by and large most people wouldn't know who he is. Even some hardcore fans.

And really Golden Sun was no more niche than Xenoblade was during Smash speculation. If anything Golden Sun was less niche given it's status as a million seller which no Xenoblade game has managed to do to this day.

 

[Cosmic77]

Xenoblade was only localized in America after fans campaigned for it and Sakurai said Shulk was highly requested in Japan, it's not as niche as you're making it out to be for Smash fans

It's still pretty niche though. I admittingly had never heard of Shulk until the Gematsu leak.



(Edit: Nevermind. Seems like I was beaten to the punch.)

 

[Cutie Gwen]

You'd be hard pressed to find many people that knew about Shulk before Smash 4, myself included. Maybe Xeno was popular among some gamers but by and large most people wouldn't know who he is. Even some hardcore fans.

And really Golden Sun was no more niche than Xenoblade was during Smash speculation. If anything Golden Sun was less niche given it's status as a million seller which no Xenoblade game has managed to do to this day.

It's still pretty niche though. I admittingly had never heard of Shulk until the Gematsu leak.



(Edit: Nevermind. Seems like I was beaten to the punch.)

Again, in Japan Shulk's popularity was significant enough for Sakurai to mention it.

 

[Cosmic77]

Again, in Japan Shulk's popularity was significant enough for Sakurai to mention it.

Shulk was revealed as a Smash newcomer in a Japan-exclusive Nintendo Direct. Even with his decent popularity in Japan, that should show you how much people knew about him overseas.

 

[Zerp]

Happy New Years Eve!

I know I said this plenty of times; but buff Zelda and Jigglypuff. Zelda has never even reached lower mid tier in any games she was in. Jigglypuff is also straight up garbage in Brawl and Smash 4. I understand why they nerfed her from Melee but it was too much. Jigglypuff is even in her own bottom tier in the Japanese Brawl tier list, and bottom three in the English Brawl tier list.

That reminds me of the saddest thing about Smash 4's balance.

Spoiler

Smash 4's generally agreed upon bottom three is literally the exact same as Brawl's but in reverse. As of January 31st 2018, Ganondorf, Zelda, and Jigglypuff will have been arguably the three worst characters in the most recent Smash game for ten years. Nice job balance team.

How much do you all wanna bet that next game's bottom three on the 5/6BR Tier List will be some combination of Zelda, Ganondorf and Jigglypuff?

 

[Lukingordex]

So... apparently amazon listed 18 new switch games to be announced in january. Could that mean a direct is coming and possibly smash 4 port for switch?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

What can really feel sad is that while I do know how to improve Zelda and Ganondorf, my mind is pretty much blank in regards to improving Jigglypuff.

Although it's probably a coincidence, that would help explain why Rosalina and Villager have some of the worst Final Smashes.

While I wouldn't necessarily call Power Star and Dream Home bad Final Smashes, they do require proper placement to get the best possible results.

 

[PeridotGX]

With 2017 almost being over, I think it's time I ask this question again. What game do you think had the least impact on Smash 5? My bet is on either MP: The Top 100 or 1-2 Switch.

EDIT: 1st party games.

 

[Zerp]

So... apparently amazon listed 18 new switch games to be announced in january. Could that mean a direct is coming and possibly smash 4 port for switch?

I'm fairly certain we are getting a new direct in January, I forgot whether or not it was EA or Ubisoft that leaked it but I do recall that it happened, and Ninty likes to announce lots of things in January anyway so it was to be expected. Regarding the Amazon leaks, Smash 5 and/or Smash 4withworsebalancetheport is a possibility to be any of those games, and I'm betting we're going to see something Smash related soon.

What can really feel sad is that while I do know how to improve Zelda and Ganondorf, my mind is pretty much blank in regards to improving Jigglypuff.

An easy way to start would be by buffing our grab game, Jigglypuff has the best pummel in the game but it doesn't matter much when you have no kill or combo throws, we really don't get much reward off of grab, which is kind of absurd because our standing grab range is the 2nd shortest in the game only behind R.O.B., you'd think we'd get a lot off of getting the grab but we don't.

With 2017 almost being over, I think it's time I ask this question again. What game do you think had the least impact on Smash 5? My bet is on either MP: The Top 100 or 1-2 Switch.

PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds./s

Assuming you mean only out of 1st party games released this year, I'm going to go with Mario Sports Superstars.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

With 2017 almost being over, I think it's time I ask this question again. What game do you think had the least impact on Smash 5? My bet is on either MP: The Top 100 or 1-2 Switch.

EDIT: 1st party games.

Based on some videos that I saw, 1-2-Switch is among the worst Nintendo Switch retail titles of 2017.

 

[Deleted member]

Fellow Smash fan, is Game Data Library (which uses Famitsu) a reliable source for citing Japanese sales figures? I found this site on the Bomberman board but I notice most people use Media Creates (which I have no idea where to find up to date sources on).

K.Rool is in an odd and precarious position of not being old enough to be retro, but not considered fairly recent due to his absence from the recent DKC titles. Dixie returned in Tropical Freeze so she has that going for her in that regard.

Not appearing in a main DK title for a while could be seen as barrier, but it is not the be all and end all as you alluded to.

However the costume was at least something. Was it a second prize? Was it an acknowledgement? An acknowledgement of either his popularity or the fact that he couldn't be fit in at this point in time but a bone thrown? Either way, we're in unchartered waters with the ballot, DLC, etc and despite K.Rool's absence he does have some things going for him.

That got me thinking, what would peoples thoughts be if Diddy and Dixie were combined as one character with a team up mechanic, then having K.Rool playable?

K. Rool's Mii costume is a mystery. Sakurai has never said anything on K. Rool being playable or otherwise and unlike Ridley or Dixie Kong has never given him a reason for exclusion. He's also never shown up as an Assist Trophy or a boss. Granted, we could argue that he was excluded because of lack of recent appearance but that was Sakurai giving a general statement that applies to other veterans and newcomers who did not make it to the base roster. There could be more behind K. Rool's exclusion but we will never know until he comes back and we find out if he becomes playable.

As for Miis, they're still important to Nintendo and their only avatar character(that isn't specific to a game series like Pokemon Trainer or Villager are). They clearly are not going away, and at best, are less of a focus than the Wii and Wii U. They are not just recent, but hardly are irrelevant. There's no way they're going to be cut from Smash any time soon, especially not the Switch version. If they're dropped by the next console, that version might drop them from Smash, but it's not worth dropping anyway, since they give people what they really want, the ability to essentially play as any possible character. Which is basically a major catering to the fans of the series, as it's well known that some character cannot get in(unless they originated in a video game, which inherently makes them eligible no matter what. Not likely, but still eligible). This is Sakurai's perfect workaround when he can't add every single character, and also allows people to play as non-video game characters just fine. Sure, they aren't allowed in all modes(which depending on the design of the mode, is entirely justified. With Anyone has things like copyright issues and issues with people making inappropriate Miis, and that's enough for Sakurai to be worried. He's completely justified in his worry and doesn't want to take changes. As for the Smash Party(why can't I remember this mode's name?), the Miis are your player character, but it's like Pokemon Trainer in the Pokemon games, you don't entirely play as the game, although in this case, you have less control).

K. Rool is actually pretty irrelevant at this point, but also is a retro at best nowadays. His last game appearance was on the GameCube, which is more than 2 systems ago, which is the cut-off time for Virtual Console games. Depending how you look at that, if they're eligible for VC(2 systems before the current one), they're retro. I'd say he ultimately counts as that, overall. He doesn't have any proper modern appearances either. Plus, "retro" has two meanings, a design style(see: Shovel Knight), and the system it's on(anything 2 system prior to the current one or generation. Which makes stuff like Dreamcast retro). Another example of the difference is Pac-Man and Sonic. Neither are from retro games, as they're active franchises with works on systems even after the GameCube/GBA. However, they're both designed with their retro abilities/appearances as the main focus. Sonic barely has any modern moves(his Down Air is extremely similar to one in Sonic Battle, but that was also done when the GBA wasn't a retro system either, but even then, it was one of his only modern moves to date. Even the Homing Attack isn't modern, originating in Sonic 3D Blast, a Genesis game. Although to be fair, this isn't exactly common knowledge, as it was used as a staple of the modern 3D games for Sonic/Shadow and similar playstyles).

Fair enough on the Miis. I'll certainly be keeping them on my roster.

K. Rool's last appearance was on the Wii and before that the DS. Also, how do we know that Sakurai considers consoles after the NES to be "retro"? Gamers may consider the Dreamcast to be retro but nothing indicates that Sakurai does. Remember that he is forty-seven years old and was a teenager when the NES first released. The only characters whom's last game appearance was 15+ years ago that made it as playable have been on the NES and nothing else. Granted we are working on a pattern, but this pattern indicate that Sakurai has a strict definition of retro. So no, K. Rool would not be considered retro by Sakurai because he never appeared on the NES and that's why recency hurts him.

Relevancy isn't the only thing taken into consideration when choosing newcomers, but it's still a pretty huge factor regardless. Almost every newcomer we got either (1) debuted in the time between Brawl and Smash 4's development (), or (2) remained relevant within the same timespan due to popular new releases within their own franchise (). You're right about two though. Characters like Little Mac and Duck Hunt are far from relevant. They do, however, qualify as retro - they're so old and classic that most amateur video game enthusiasts would be able to recognize them with or without a recent game. The thing that got them in was their iconic status. Relevancy had almost nothing to do with it.

Little Mac is not at all a retro character. He got a new game in 2009 and three years is hardly an old title. Not only that, the contents are mostly based off the new game, including Little Mac's design. He was a contemporary character. Mega Man has much more retro content and no one argues he's purely a retro third-party rep because history indicates otherwise.

That's a very VERY faulty metric.

Fire Emblem and Xenoblade got playable characters at a time when neither series was that popular. Especially Xenoblade which was still very niche before Shulk got in to Smash 4.

And Dark Dawn released a whooping 7 years after The Lost Age. Combine that with the fact that DD was released towards the end of the DS's lifespan and the critical reception of DD and it's easy to see why it sold the way it did. It's not an indictment on the part of the Golden Sun franchise as a whole and especially not on Isaac's chances for Smash Bros.

Not to mention Dark Dawn did 700,000 worldwide which might not be a huge number but it's still pretty decent considering the factors regarding DD's release.

Fire Emblem and Xenoblade are bad comparisons because they actually accomplished something prior to Ike and Shulk's debut.

Fire Emblem in the transition from Melee to Brawl had two successful games (FE6 and FE7) and localized its game starting with FE7. Xenoblade Chronicles is important because Operation Rainfall lead to the localization of it, The Last Story, and Pandora's Tower and the first game sold well. They may have been niche at the time but they weren't irrelevant. Fire Emblem has also been a historically important franchise for Nintendo.

What has Golden Sun done to improve its standing or prove it was already an important Nintendo franchise? Saying that the long wait and the critical reception between Golden Sun 2 and 3 caused a decline in sales is a bad excuse because if anything, the long wait should have built up anticipation, not tear it down. If Golden Sun was so important to Nintendo, why did Camelot pass up every opportunity to make one in favor of Mario Golf and Tennis on the 3DS?

So... apparently amazon listed 18 new switch games to be announced in january. Could that mean a direct is coming and possibly smash 4 port for switch?

I don't know if that has any backing or not. All I know is that there was a leak indicating one next month. Even if the leak is true, I think it's too early for a new game but if a port is going to happen, this is one of the few opportunities left to reveal it.

 

[kirbstr]

Miis are still on the Switch; keep that in mind. I think they will continue to appear on Switch games and even in Smash for Switch. I know people do not like Miis but what can you do about it? I can use Miis to make Solid Snake and anime characters . Now I want to make a Spongebob Mii for the memes and jokes.

[/QUOTE]
True, but miis are also directly tied to customs and equipment. I could definitely see them dropping customization and the miis due to them being a poorly executed ideas that aren't very popular to begin with. Unless they decide to do and entire overhaul of the system and still take development time to make new custom moves for all the newcomers and returning DLC figters, I don't see them returning.

If customization isn't in the game, I don't feel like it would be worth the time for the devs to create the miis because it kind of takes away the whole appeal of creating your own characters. Whether or not you agree with me doesn't change the fact that removing miis entirely because no customs is a very Sakurai thing to do. As I see it the miis are out as long as customization is. If they confirm that customs are in the game then miis should be in as well.

 

[Cosmic77]

Based on some videos that I saw, 1-2-Switch is among the worst Nintendo Switch retail titles of 2017.

Surprisingly, 1-2-Switch sold fairly well for being such a hated and skimpy game. It's been a while since I checked, but the sales were over one million a few months ago.

If you're looking for great Nintendo games that sold below expectations, check the releases for September and October. Samus Returns, FE Warriors, and the Superstar Saga remake have some pretty mediocre numbers (which shouldn't be shocking to anyone given how close the release dates were to each other.)

 

[Deleted member]

Even if customs for other characters are scrapped, I still can see Miis getting the customs because that's their whole purpose.

Hell, if Mii Fighters were the only customizable fighters, I can easily see a wider range of options made for them.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

K. Rool's last appearance was on the Wii and before that the DS. Also, how do we know that Sakurai considers consoles after the NES to be "retro"? Gamers may consider the Dreamcast to be retro but nothing indicates that Sakurai does. Remember that he is forty-seven years old and was a teenager when the NES first released. The only characters whom's last game appearance was 15+ years ago that made it as playable have been on the NES and nothing else. Granted we are working on a pattern, but this pattern indicate that Sakurai has a strict definition of retro. So no, K. Rool would not be considered retro by Sakurai because he never appeared on the NES and that's why recency hurts him.

Oops, got him wrong. I thought his last appearance was GBA(at best) and GameCube.

Little Mac is not at all a retro character. He got a new game in 2009 and three years is hardly an old title. Not only that, the contents are mostly based off the new game, including Little Mac's design. He was a contemporary character. Mega Man has much more retro content and no one argues he's purely a retro third-party rep because history indicates otherwise.

Retro design =/= character from a retro games. They're completely different things. Retro game is arguably(I never said it was Sakurai's thoughts) any game that could be on the Virtual Console(which is 2 consoles behind), which is an objective definition that can be used. Not saying there is any actual official retro definition.

That said, Ice Climbers were chosen because they were from a retro game(besides the fact the gimmick worked). Little Mac was from a recent game, but his design is based upon his retro appearances in Super Punch Out(basically not the Wii version, all older versions). He himself is not a character from a retro game, but is still designed like a retro character.

It's the reason why Retro Character has lost all meaning, as they're context and has pretty clearly two different points to consider; latest game appearance, and how the character is designed. Other examples include MegaMan, Pac-Man, and Sonic, who all have modern games yet are designed to encompass they're retro games specifically(with maybe a modern move or two).[/QUOTE]

 

[kirbstr]

Even if customs for other characters are scrapped, I still can see Miis getting the customs because that's their whole purpose.

Hell, if Mii Fighters were the only customizable fighters, I can easily see a wider range of options made for them.

With Customs I feel like it's an all or nothing deal. Sakurai is an all or nothing kind of guy when it comes to creating games and has been since he was a teenager making kirby so I don't think something like that would happen unless Smash 5 will have a new lead developer.

 

[Cosmic77]

I never thought customs were too unpopular. Not many people used them due to their ban on For Glory, but they sure were fun to play with. Besides, customs are a great way to bring back the moves of clone and semi-clone characters who got cut from the roster. If Roy and Lucas get cut, Sakurai can give Marth and Ness their specials respectively.

 

[Ura]

Fire Emblem and Xenoblade are bad comparisons because they actually accomplished something prior to Ike and Shulk's debut.

Fire Emblem in the transition from Melee to Brawl had two successful games (FE6 and FE7) and localized its game starting with FE7. Xenoblade Chronicles is important because Operation Rainfall lead to the localization of it, The Last Story, and Pandora's Tower and the first game sold well. They may have been niche at the time but they weren't irrelevant. Fire Emblem has also been a historically important franchise for Nintendo.

What has Golden Sun done to improve its standing or prove it was already an important Nintendo franchise? Saying that the long wait and the critical reception between Golden Sun 2 and 3 caused a decline in sales is a bad excuse because if anything, the long wait should have built up anticipation, not tear it down. If Golden Sun was so important to Nintendo, why did Camelot pass up every opportunity to make one in favor of Mario Golf and Tennis on the 3DS?

No, they're perfectly good examples to use in this example. Fire Emblem pre-Melee was very niche, only known in Japan and even then it wasn't a hot seller the way other series in Smash were. Hell, before FE6 the series was on the decline (and ironically enough was on the decline pre-Awakening). Xenoblade was also not that well known aside from it's niche support base. Reggie has even gone on to state that Xenoblade's arrival in NA wasn't due to Operation Rainfall so take that for what it's worth. Bottom line is, neither series was that well-known before Smash Bros. And Camelot is making all these Mario Sports titles because the staff that worked on Golden Sun doesn't work there anymore. Or at least that's the rumor going on.

As I said before, Golden Sun was a million seller in both of it's GBA entries. Dark Dawn was in a bad spot with being released late in the DS's life and it's critical reception. Not to mention that it missed the "golden age" for RPG's which was during the 3DS's life cycle. Every non-major franchise has it's game that doesn't sell particularly great. It happened with FE multiple times as well with Metroid. It's not a reason to kill off a series because of that one title.

Lets not forget that Isaac is a heavily requested newcomer for Smash despite the status of the series he originates from. The only thing that put the likes of Marth and Shulk ahead of him is that they were really popular in Japan while Isaac in more popular in the West. Sakurai/Nintendo has a tendency to heavily favor characters who are more popular in Japan VS those in the West. Very few exceptions are made to this other than Little Mac.

 

[ssbashworld]

So... apparently amazon listed 18 new switch games to be announced in january. Could that mean a direct is coming and possibly smash 4 port for switch?

Anythings possible, from what i have seen some of the placeholders have higher price tags so some are probably special editions of others. The nintendo games announced without amazon pages that i know of are fire emblem and pokemon so those could be a couple of the slots (prime 4, yoshi, and kirby already have pages). Could also include several 3rd party games. Either way January direct rumors have been popping up a lot and if they are true hopefully some other nintendo ips get announcements and hopefully smash is one of them although animal crossing, pikmin, and retro's new game also could fill in some of those slots.

 

[Deleted member]

With Customs I feel like it's an all or nothing deal. Sakurai is an all or nothing kind of guy when it comes to creating games and has been since he was a teenager making kirby so I don't think something like that would happen unless Smash 5 will have a new lead developer.

Mii Fighters are a different animal from standard Custom Moves and would be made an exception should the standard Custom Moves be given the axe.

Customization defines their very purpose, from what they look like to how they fight. The Custom Moves for everyone else (except Palutena) are superfluous.

 

[Locuan]

With Customs I feel like it's an all or nothing deal.

The problem with customs, in my view, is that there's no actually easy way to choose between them to make it competitively viable. Let me explain myself a bit more clearly. Custom moves require a strong time investment to unlock every single one. After that it requires going to a separate area of the menu, make a set, save it, and go back to character select. That's assuming only one player does so. Otherwise, another set would have to be built for the next player.

Now let us imagine customs where available from the start [be it predefined sets or otherwise] and where easily switched from character select itself. Now we get into the realm of possibility of seeing them in competitive play. This would also extend to the Mii Fighters. Imagine something similar to how you can choose different ultras in the SF series within character select but with custom moves. I think that if this feature was implemented from the start the argument for custom viability would have been more favorable during the establishment of rulesets.

 

[kirbstr]

Mii Fighters are a different animal from standard Custom Moves and would be made an exception should the standard Custom Moves be given the axe.

Customization defines their very purpose, from what they look like to how they fight. The Custom Moves for everyone else (except Palutena) are superfluous.

And that is why I'm saying that they will be cut. Despite being a different animal from regular customs they are still directly tied to them in a way that, as you point out, are inseparable from customization. That is why I feel like If sakurai were to cut customs, he would also cut the miis.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The problem with customs, in my view, is that there's no actually easy way to choose between them to make it competitively viable. Let me explain myself a bit more clearly. Custom moves require a strong time investment to unlock every single one. After that it requires going to a separate area of the menu, make a set, save it, and go back to character select. That's assuming only one player does so. Otherwise, another set would have to be built for the next player.

Now let us imagine customs where available from the start [be it predefined sets or otherwise] and where easily switched from character select itself. Now we get into the realm of possibility of seeing them in competitive play. This would also extend to the Mii Fighters. Imagine something similar to how you can choose different ultras in the SF series within character select but with custom moves. I think that if this feature was implemented from the start the argument for custom viability would have been more favorable during the establishment of rulesets.

The funny thing is it's not really the customs so much as the weight values as well that makes it very difficult to allow Mii Fighters. Finding the most competitive is not an issue with custom moves. If any becomes too powerful, that move can be banned. Weight however puts another load on the proverbial plate. Now you have a far bigger issue overall. It's hard to test play this kind of thing. Customs are a bit easier since they don't inherently change the weight or height of a character(although speed is another story), so generally a customs tournament isn't too hard to do.

And then you have the idea of Mii Fighters being middle weight with middle height. It's nice, but many won't allow anything but 1111, which also removes the point of using them. I can understand keeping default costumes as some may be distracting or inappropriate character designs. Some costumes for regular characters aren't allowed in certain situations due to problems caused, so it's not like this is a big deal. I can't really blame TO's for not wanting to deal with them either. Especially since only Palutena and the 3 Mii Fighters have customs from the start. And then you have to figure out what equipment is allowed, if any. Customs, overall, are a large can of worms. They make characters more viable, sure, but it also can make some more broken potentially. And so on. It's pretty difficult to balance around that. Thus, the choice is ban them all(although to be frank, even without Mii Fighters, it's silly to not allow Palutena unique builds).

 

[Locuan]

Weight however puts another load on the proverbial plate.

Gonna be honest. I completely forgot about weight. But I definitely agree.

 

[Diddy Kong]

What can really feel sad is that while I do know how to improve Zelda and Ganondorf, my mind is pretty much blank in regards to improving Jigglypuff.

Quite easily in fact:

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

@ Diddy Kong : Looking at those images that you posted, it's rather interesting how the hitboxes have evolved throughout the Smash Bros. series. If you have more than one hitbox being attached to the same bone, you can merge them into a single extended hitbox now.

 

[Deleted member]

And that is why I'm saying that they will be cut. Despite being a different animal from regular customs they are still directly tied to them in a way that, as you point out, are inseparable from customization. That is why I feel like If sakurai were to cut customs, he would also cut the miis.

You're not getting what I'm saying at all.
I'm saying that customs for other characters and customs for Miis are not comparable.

Mii Fighters wouldn't even be factored in in your "all-or-nothing" scenario.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

The problem with customs, in my view, is that there's no actually easy way to choose between them to make it competitively viable. Let me explain myself a bit more clearly. Custom moves require a strong time investment to unlock every single one. After that it requires going to a separate area of the menu, make a set, save it, and go back to character select. That's assuming only one player does so. Otherwise, another set would have to be built for the next player.

Now let us imagine customs where available from the start [be it predefined sets or otherwise] and where easily switched from character select itself. Now we get into the realm of possibility of seeing them in competitive play. This would also extend to the Mii Fighters. Imagine something similar to how you can choose different ultras in the SF series within character select but with custom moves. I think that if this feature was implemented from the start the argument for custom viability would have been more favorable during the establishment of rulesets.

Sounds a la Mortal Kombat X to me and that worked out decently well for that game.

I'm not totally opposed to the idea of customs nor them in competitive play I just find them incredibly disappointing considering the potential there was for them. Could've given Mario a snowball like the ice flower and changed the properties to be on par with the Ice Climbers icicles Neutral Special. There's enough to draw from to make the Customs really interesting, even if they were in predefined sets, but to be honest I don't want more of what we got in 4. There were a few good ones here and there; fire wolf, PK Freeze, and Warlock Blade comes to mind, but overall I didn't even bother with customs because of how boring they were. That needs to be fixed.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The idea of implementing custom special moves was good, but how it was implemented was a mixed bag when there are custom moves that are just completely impractical to use; I'm looking at you Warlock Thrust, Spinphony, Armored Jet Hammer, and even Mega Gunman.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The idea of implementing custom special moves was good, but how it was implemented was a mixed bag when there are custom moves that are just completely impractical to use; I'm looking at you Warlock Thrust,

Uh that move was actually pretty good, extra range and less start up, plus Ganon uses the sword people wanted him to use. The biggest issue with customs is how tedious it is to get them. They're RNG, you can get multiple ones and worst of all, they're grouped with equipment meaning you might think "Maybe this is that custom move I want!" only to get something nobody wants

 

[Diddy Kong]

Wasn't that Warlock Blade? I always thought it looked a bit awkward cause the animation still looks like Ganondorf is doing a punch of sorts. Granted, it's better than nothing.

@ Diddy Kong : Looking at those images that you posted, it's rather interesting how the hitboxes have evolved throughout the Smash Bros. series. If you have more than one hitbox being attached to the same bone, you can merge them into a single extended hitbox now.

Which is kinda ironic that Jigglypuff has been nerfed so much in Brawl and since. Because I think Melee Jigglypuff's aerial dominance was discovered after the time that Brawl was released.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Uh that move was actually pretty good, extra range and less start up, plus Ganon uses the sword people wanted him to use.

I think you're referring to Warlock Blade. Warlock Thrust has no practical use at all, as even though it executes the quickest of all of Ganondorf's Warlock Punch options, its sweetspot KOs later than any of Ganondorf's other attack options, there's no super armor at all, and it has high ending lag.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I think you're referring to Warlock Blade. Warlock Thrust has no practical use at all, as even though it executes the quickest of all of Ganondorf's Warlock Punch options, its sweetspot KOs later than any of Ganondorf's other attack options, there's no super armor at all, and it has high ending lag.

Wasn't that Warlock Blade? I always thought it looked a bit awkward cause the animation still looks like Ganondorf is doing a punch of sorts. Granted, it's better than nothing.

Which is kinda ironic that Jigglypuff has been nerfed so much in Brawl and since. Because I think Melee Jigglypuff's aerial dominance was discovered after the time that Brawl was released.

Ah, my bad, he kinda thrusts the blade sideways so eh

 

[Deleted member]

I have a feeling that will not get a buff that makes her top or even high tier. The reason is that in Melee; Jigglypuff's rest killed at ridiculously early percents, and as Diddy Kong said, that back air hitbox is insanely too large and I know the developers know that. I am sure that the development team will not make Jigglypuff herself from "Melee" because they are scared people will bombard them with messages on how Jigglypuff is unfair. Her back air will definitely not be the same from Melee. But do not get your hopes low, there still is a chance for a great Jigglypuff buff.

Sounds a la Mortal Kombat X to me and that worked out decently well for that game.

I'm not totally opposed to the idea of customs nor them in competitive play I just find them incredibly disappointing considering the potential there was for them. Could've given Mario a snowball like the ice flower and changed the properties to be on par with the Ice Climbers icicles Neutral Special. There's enough to draw from to make the Customs really interesting, even if they were in predefined sets, but to be honest I don't want more of what we got in 4. There were a few good ones here and there; fire wolf, PK Freeze, and Warlock Blade comes to mind, but overall I didn't even bother with customs because of how boring they were. That needs to be fixed.

I agree with this. I share no interest in customs because I just prefer using the right tournament style to one on one each other; even in casual battles. Customs are not allowed on my training room which is For Glory; so they do need to fix this custom problem

Let's just hope that Bowser doesn't get the nerf hammer, because he was definitely among the worst fighters in Melee, and Brawl didn't exactly fix his serious flaws. Sure, Bowser's Smash 3DS / Wii U incarnation does have its own share of flaws, but they're nowhere near as bad as what Bowser had to deal with in Melee and Brawl.

I agree with this. Bowser was bottom tier in both of his games; and Smash 4 finally gave him a buff he deserved. He is now either a high tier or a high - mid tier. Bowser may still be "combo food", but back then he was more delicious in Melee and Brawl. But the combo food king in Brawl is Ganondorf. Anyway; I am fine if they do not change Bowser. If they give Bowser another buff; Bowser might be doing very well in high tier ( or even top tier ) and people will complain on how unfair he is.

Happy New Years Eve!
That reminds me of the saddest thing about Smash 4's balance.

Spoiler

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Smash 4's generally agreed upon bottom three is literally the exact same as Brawl's but in reverse. As of January 31st 2018, Ganondorf, Zelda, and Jigglypuff will have been arguably the three worst characters in the most recent Smash game for ten years. Nice job balance team.

How much do you all wanna bet that next game's bottom three on the 5/6BR Tier List will be some combination of Zelda, Ganondorf and Jigglypuff?

In Smash 4; Zelda, Ganondorf and Jigglypuff were all buffed from Brawl but it is sad that they are still the bottom three. It is a large possibility that they will stay in bottom three. The only ones that can compete for bottom three at this point is Kirby, King Dedede, Bowser Junior and Wii Fit Trainer. But they are all usually doing better than those three. I mean they still have their flaws and they nerfed Jigglypuff a little bit even! Please give them a buff to escape the depths of the sad bottom tier in the next Smash game.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I agree with this. Bowser was bottom tier in both of his games; and Smash 4 finally gave him a buff he deserved. He is now either a high tier or a high - mid tier. Bowser may still be "combo food", but back then he was more delicious in Melee and Brawl. But the combo food king in Brawl is Ganondorf. Anyway; I am fine if they do not change Bowser. If they give Bowser another buff; Bowser might be doing very well in high tier ( or even top tier ) and people will complain on how unfair he is.

At least Bowser's cons in Smash 3DS / Wii U keep him from being unfair. Bowser may have more KO move options than someone like Sheik or Zero Suit Samus, but simply being a combo prone big target who has ending lag issues for certain attacks is why he's not a top 10 material fighter.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

The idea of implementing custom special moves was good, but how it was implemented was a mixed bag when there are custom moves that are just completely impractical to use; I'm looking at you Warlock Thrust, Spinphony, Armored Jet Hammer, and even Mega Gunman.

How they were unlocked was also very impractical and tedious.

It was practically a gacha game in and of itself, except you couldn't speed things up with money (which would've probably made it even worse).

 

[Locuan]

It was practically a gacha game in and of itself, except you couldn't speed things up with money

You are now giving me nightmares. Nintendo pls