Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Cosmic77]

I can think of 100 other characters from the top of my head that I'd prefer over Steve. However, even I can't deny that Minecraft has become a huge worldwide icon in gaming. I hate the idea, but I don't really have a leg to stand on if Sakurai (for whatever cruel, twisted reason) decides to add Steve.

Regarding the poll, I think public reception to Xenoblade 2 killed any chances of a newcomer from that game. If it became a runaway success, it'd be way more likely, but reception has been lukewarm to kinda meh.

Sakurai is kinda running out of options here. Any franchise that isn't Pokemon or FE doesn't have an abundance of viable characters left to choose from.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

We just need Master Chief period. Not because he's xbox exclusive, but because he's a modern gaming icon.

There's no "we" on my end. I don't see the point of Master Chief in the first place. If you want iconic, add Bomberman, Banjo, and Crash Bandicoot. Both are iconic and the latter is making a long deserving comeback.

Discussing Steve now? Why do I sometimes feel that we're running out of first and second party options here?

 

[RandomAce]

Was Banjo really considered an iconic character? He only appeared on the N64 and hasn't really recieved a game since (I know that he has a game on XBOX, but that's beside the point.)

I mean, compared to Bomberman and Crash Bandicoot, only people who had an N64 probably remembers Banjo Kazooe to even consider him popular compared to the other two who received games recently and made a huge impact on their genre when they first came out, while Banjo was just another 3D collectathon.

 

[Deleted member]

This is why Dixie Kong support needs to be far more vocal. And I choose to be more vocal about her. Because I still think Dixie would be a great addition, yet without strong support she might simply not get in there. Even if Tropical Freeze has made her more relevant now. I still am anxious she isn't gonna be in this next Smash.

Tropical Freeze won't matter if she fails to show up in another game during character consideration for the next game. This should have given her the edge during the last game and it did not. She is on the same page as K. Rool now, a character who has not been relevant in recent years and did nothing else to merit consideration.

Unless she or K. Rool shows up in another game (especially a new DK title), we have a better chance of keeping all seven Mario characters and adding Paper Mario than a third DK character (that is if they don't consider Cranky Kong).

Regarding the poll, I think public reception to Xenoblade 2 killed any chances of a newcomer from that game. If it became a runaway success, it'd be way more likely, but reception has been lukewarm to kinda meh.

An eighty-three on Metacritic is hardly lukewarm reception, it just isn't seen as among the best games ever made. If that is lukewarm, then so are most Kirby games.

Also the game is the fastest selling game in Japan so far so it is clear that people see Xenoblade Chronicles 2 as a worthwhile game to purchase, which will likely surpass the original game's sales. This is not a potential roadblock towards Rex's inclusion.

I know you and I all are cringing from Steve being in Smash because of one thing: the fan base
I would cringe if Steve made it because his game has an obnoxious fan base.
If Steve's game had a calm and peaceful fan base than maybe Steve would not be such a bad addition because in Minecraft, there are so many tools and tricks in that game to justify Steve's moveset. We all know he would use a bow and sword but what else would he use? There are so many possibilities.
I am not saying that I want Steve in Smash.

Why should we care?

It's the Internet, people are going to act stupid and do things that aggravate other people. I've done it, you've done it, and every active member on this forum has. If the Sonic fan base hasn't ruined the Smash fan base, Minecraft won't do it.

People are going to have to learn that bad fans are a part of every fan base and no exclusion will ever change that. If Sakurai wants to add Steve in Smash, he will do so and no amount of whining about "Minecraft has horrible fans!" will change that. Steve is not going to destroy the legacy of the Smash fan base because a few ratheads decides to post on Smashboards about how excited they are that Minecraft is in Smash.

I can think of 100 other characters from the top of my head that I'd prefer over Steve. However, even I can't deny that Minecraft has become a huge worldwide icon in gaming. I hate the idea, but I don't really have a leg to stand on if Sakurai (for whatever cruel, twisted reason) decides to add Steve.



Sakurai is kinda running out of options here. Any franchise that isn't Pokemon or FE doesn't have an abundance of viable characters left to choose from.

We said it last time that we were running out of options and lo and behold, we got eighteen new characters, many of which we never expected to show up. The only reason why we believe Sakurai is running out of options is because the Smash fan base has a preconceived notion that Sakurai doesn't look far beyond the "likely" characters.

Smash has an incredible wealth of Nintendo characters to look at that has never been playable before and I don't see that well drying up anytime soon. If Sakurai needs to add a bunch of characters, he's going to expand his options to get what he wants. He's more creative with roster choices than what we give him credit for.

 

[RandomAce]

The only reason why we believe Sakurai is running out of options is because the Smash fan base has a preconceived notion that Sakurai doesn't look far beyond the "likely" characters.

Smash has an incredible wealth of Nintendo characters to look at that has never been playable before and I don't see that well drying up anytime soon. If Sakurai needs to add a bunch of characters, he's going to expand his options to get what he wants. He's more creative with roster choices than what we give him credit for.

I suppose that is sort of true, however how many IPs does Nintendo have left to be featured into smash, without any of them being from a 3rd party series or a character from a series already in smash? It is possible that the development may surprise us with additions we didn't think of yet, but it might be safe to assume that the new additions made to Smash 4 (including DLC) left the impression that the team only a few IPs left for Smash that are owned from Nintendo, since most of the new characters were from already established IPs or third parties. With only a couple being relevant as of now (Splatoon and ARMS).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Was Banjo really considered an iconic character? He only appeared on the N64 and hasn't really recieved a game since (I know that he has a game on XBOX, but that's beside the point.)

I mean, compared to Bomberman and Crash Bandicoot, only people who had an N64 probably remembers Banjo Kazooe to even consider him popular compared to the other two who received games recently and made a huge impact on their genre when they first came out, while Banjo was just another 3D collectathon.

Yeah, Banjo(and Kazooie) aren't honestly near Bomberman or Crash levels of memorable either. Crash didn't severely change the platforming genre, but there's no denying it was the big giant platformer of the Playstation, and for more than one generation. He is absolutely iconic.

Bomberman is a pretty notable one, even though saying exactly how he changed the genre is a bit harder. Despite this, there's no questioning how iconic he is, spanning multiple generations, being notable to trillions of people. We're talking MegaMan levels easily(mind you, MegaMan is not as iconic as Mario, Sonic, and Pac-Man, but that's okay, as he's still way up there anyway).

Simply put, a 3rd party that is only notable in one generation isn't one with a major gaming history, or iconic enough for Smash in itself(that doesn't mean they're not viable, as all video game characters are by default, as long as they originated in a game, anyway), but things like the ballot and new guidelines can absolutely come up. The idea of Banjo & Kazooie being in Smash is nowhere near farfetched, but it isn't because they're super iconic, it'd be because there's a lot of moveset potential, and possible other reasons. Easy to license for(although they couldn't get 'em in the remake of Diddy Kong Racing, so that kind of tells us it might not be that easy. Microsoft isn't exactly letting Rare properties do much on Nintendo as is even to this day, so that can easily influence their chances). If not obvious, I'd say Steve? is the most likely Microsoft character for a lot of reasons. Now, is he my personal choice? Nah. I'd want Fulgore way more. But it's a perfectly reasonable choice, as he's a huge gaming icon and would attract tons of customers to the game. And that's good for business and the series.

...Plus, to be fair, any 3rd party could attract terrible fanbases, so a Minecraft fanbase doesn't say anything just cause it sometimes is toxic. Let's not pretend fanbases aren't toxic in general. It's pretty near impossible to find a non-toxic one. Just a less vocal one is more likely.

 

[Super Nintendo Chalmers]

I know you and I all are cringing from Steve being in Smash because of one thing: the fan base
I would cringe if Steve made it because his game has an obnoxious fan base.
If Steve's game had a calm and peaceful fan base than maybe Steve would not be such a bad addition because in Minecraft, there are so many tools and tricks in that game to justify Steve's moveset. We all know he would use a bow and sword but what else would he use? There are so many possibilities.
I am not saying that I want Steve in Smash.

I don't put too much focus onto fanbases tbh, I focus on the character and its merits alone. I'm not gonna dismiss a character based on how a group of strangers think or act. It's meaningless to me as a player and a gamer. Then again, I'm not heavily invested in the game like others. Eh, I wouldn't mind Steve at all if he can be presentable.

Rash or another Battletoad would be a blast to play and is another option for a Rare based character. They would fit in well with their zany movements and cartoony effects. If I had to pick one Rare character it would be Banjo Kazooie hands down though. There was a time where BK were considered All Stars or close to (Google N64 Spotlight console which is interesting) but there are more "iconic" picks out there like Bomberman, Crash, etc

 

[Nonno Umby]

There is one idea that I want to bring to the table: what if there is Minecraft representation trough a stage, trophies and a Mii fighters costume? We have already seen in Smash Wii U how they added content from TP series which lacked a playable character, like the Monster Hunter, Llyod Irving ecc. Mii Fighter costume, as well as the Rayman and Commander Video trophy.

 

[Pakky]

Hmmm what about the 3DS shop bag?

Speaking objectively Steve makes sense from a marketing point of view.

Would I want Banjo or Kameo or whatever, yes, yes I would.

But what sells more games/ (amiibos) toys, some stuff I like from the 90s that ain't coming back, or this thing that all the kids like?

Welp...

Pokemon is interesting, though in all this time I don't get Jiggs still being here.

Everyone else from Gen 1 just doesn't leave the public's mind so I get it. Jiggs? I don't know.

 

[Super Nintendo Chalmers]

Hmmm what about the 3DS shop bag?

Speaking objectively Steve makes sense from a marketing point of view.

Would I want Banjo or Kameo or whatever, yes, yes I would.

But what sells more games/ (amiibos) toys, some stuff I like from the 90s that ain't coming back, or this thing that all the kids like?

Welp...

Pokemon is interesting, though in all this time I don't get Jiggs still being here.

Everyone else from Gen 1 just doesn't leave the public's mind so I get it. Jiggs? I don't know.

One thing is for sure, having lots of potential for movesets isn't the be all and end all. It's only one part of the package.

Characters have to be recognised and somewhat marketable while having some sort of promotional value, there are exceptions though.

 

[PsychoJosh]

Steve is a character I'd expect to see in a Microsoft all-star fighting game, not Smash.

The fact that Minecraft is as popular as it is irrelevant to him appearing in Smash. As I've said earlier, third party characters need to have personality. They also need to be aesthetically pleasing, which Minecraft definitely isn't - not because it has a retro look, but because it has a retro look that's badly conveyed. Early 3D games didn't look like this. You have infinitely sprawling worlds where everything is a block. The low resolution of the textures and objects is completely mismatched with the high resolution game world. Characters in the game don't even look human. Compared to early 3D FPS games like Doom and Duke Nukem 3D, games which tried to look as beautiful as they possibly could've given their limitations, it's a hard sell.

Visually, Minecraft is a complete mess, and I think that fact alone excludes it from consideration. The artists do their absolute best to make characters look as good as they can, which is a tall order in Minecraft's case due to its inconsistent visuals. On top of that I doubt anyone would really be excited by Steve's inclusion as he's just a placeholder character.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Enjoy your Steve bashing now, because if he ever gets in (which I’m not counting on, but you never know), like all divisive choices before him, dissenting opinions will become criminal.

Toxic fanbase indeed!

This was ironic cause the Cloud render was showing on the background on your post for me over here. But AMEN! This mentality is toxic and is making the Smash community hypocrite as it is.

Tropical Freeze won't matter if she fails to show up in another game during character consideration for the next game. This should have given her the edge during the last game and it did not. She is on the same page as K. Rool now, a character who has not been relevant in recent years and did nothing else to merit consideration.

Yo chill out, Wii U was pretty damn recent and Tropical Freeze just had the unfortunate timing of being released when Smash was still in development. Sakurai DID recognise Tropical Freeze by showing Diddy on the site the very day that Tropical Freeze was released in Europe.

Dixie Kong IS a relevant choice. If not, DK and Diddy aren't either.

You seem to forget that Galaxy also had suffered the same fate as Tropical Freeze with Brawl. Also Punch Out Wii wasn't exactly relevant by the time Little Mac got revealed either.

Stop having double standards.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Steve is a character I'd expect to see in a Microsoft all-star fighting game, not Smash.

The fact that Minecraft is as popular as it is irrelevant to him appearing in Smash. As I've said earlier, third party characters need to have personality. They also need to be aesthetically pleasing, which Minecraft definitely isn't - not because it has a retro look, but because it has a retro look that's badly conveyed. Early 3D games didn't look like this. You have infinitely sprawling worlds where everything is a block. The low resolution of the textures and objects is completely mismatched with the high resolution game world. Characters in the game don't even look human. Compared to early 3D FPS games like Doom and Duke Nukem 3D, games which tried to look as beautiful as they possibly could've given their limitations, it's a hard sell.

Visually, Minecraft is a complete mess, and I think that fact alone excludes it from consideration. The artists do their absolute best to make characters look as good as they can, which is a tall order in Minecraft's case due to its inconsistent visuals. On top of that I doubt anyone would really be excited by Steve's inclusion as he's just a placeholder character.

I pretty much feel the same way about Mincraft. Even if it's a very popular franchise, the art style of the franchise would feel way out of place in a game where everyone else's models are high quality.

 

[PsychoJosh]

I pretty much feel the same way about Mincraft. Even if it's a very popular franchise, the art style of the franchise would feel way out of place in a game where everyone else's models are high quality.

I would be singing a different tune if Minecraft looked something like this. This is what it was originally going to look like, but for some reason Notch decided against it. A shame because I think the game would've benefitted greatly from this sort of appearance.

 

[Cosmic77]

We said it last time that we were running out of options and lo and behold, we got eighteen new characters, many of which we never expected to show up. The only reason why we believe Sakurai is running out of options is because the Smash fan base has a preconceived notion that Sakurai doesn't look far beyond the "likely" characters.

Smash has an incredible wealth of Nintendo characters to look at that has never been playable before and I don't see that well drying up anytime soon. If Sakurai needs to add a bunch of characters, he's going to expand his options to get what he wants. He's more creative with roster choices than what we give him credit for.

Adding a bunch of characters doesn't necessarily mean you aren't running out of ideas.


Five of those eighteen were third-party (), so that brings us down to thirteen Nintendo characters. The only franchises already represented in Smash that recieved a newcomer were Mario, Pokemon, FE, and KI (). A total of five new franchises got added on the roster with a single character for each ().


Maybe I'm wrong, but the characters from this game seem like bottom-of-the-barrel characters when you compare them to Brawl's newcomers (). I'm happy with what we got, but I think Melee and Brawl had the better list of newcomers. Not that it should surprise anyone. The roster was fairly small back then and Sakurai had plenty of iconic Nintendo stars to choose from.

 

[Schnee117]

Adding a bunch of character doesn't necessarily mean you aren't running out of ideas.


Five of those eighteen were third-party (), so that brings us down to thirteen Nintendo characters. The only franchises already represented in Smash that recieved a newcomer were Mario, Pokemon, FE, and KI (). A total of five new franchises got added on the roster with a single character for each ().

Maybe I'm wrong, but the characters from this game seem like bottom-of-the-barrel characters when you compare them to Brawl's newcomers (). I'm happy with what we got, but I think Melee and Brawl had the better list of newcomers. Not that it should surprise anyone. The roster was fairly small back then and Sakurai had plenty of iconic Nintendo stars to choose from.

It's a case of diminishing returns that Smash has been experiencing since Melee.

> >

Further along "the bottom" will be Spring-Man, Inkling and a Gen 7/8 Pokemon among others.

They just need to have some more open criteria for character additions really, then people might get the additions they want so they can stop whining like over-entitled children

 

[Diddy Kong]

It's a case of diminishing returns that Smash has been experiencing since Melee.

> >

Further along "the bottom" will be Spring-Man, Inkling and a Gen 7/8 Pokemon among others.

They just need to have some more open criteria for character additions really, then people might get the additions they want so they can stop whining like over-entitled children

Diddy Kong is definitely on the level of Melee newcomers. The only ones he's outclassed by are Peach and Bowser. Zelda rarely does stuff in games prior to Ocarina of Time, and even that role didn't deserve her getting in twice. Diddy is also a better newcomer than Ganondorf and the other clones, even better than the likes of Ice Climbers and Marth honestly.

At that point in time, giving THE most iconic franchise of Nintendo ; Donkey Kong, a homebase is bigger than just about any thing else that happened in the meanwhile of the Original 8 Smash franchises. Even bigger than Yoshi's Island.

Rare leaving left Diddy out of Melee, I think this is THE biggest conspiracy relating to characters in Smash history. When Diddy was revealed in Brawl, there where comments from Sakurai like 'finally Diddy made it' and 'it's weird he didnt' got in earlier Smash games' hinting it'd be even possible to have him in N64's Smash.

Wario and Dedede are also a bigger deal than a lot of Melee newcomers.

Smash 4's first party newcomers really don't compare to the earlier newcomers. Dixie Kong would've fixed this honestly.

 

[Schnee117]

Diddy Kong is definitely on the level of Melee newcomers. The only ones he's outclassed by are Peach and Bowser. Zelda rarely does stuff in games prior to Ocarina of Time, and even that role didn't deserve her getting in twice. Diddy is also a better newcomer than Ganondorf and the other clones, even better than the likes of Ice Climbers and Marth honestly.

Diddy is absolutely a step down from two main villains, one of the most well-known Pokemon ever and a main female character that is in the title of their own series.

You're just letting your bias blind you.

Rare leaving left Diddy out of Melee, I think this is THE biggest conspiracy relating to characters in Smash history. When Diddy was revealed in Brawl, there where comments from Sakurai like 'finally Diddy made it' and 'it's weird he didnt' got in earlier Smash games' hinting it'd be even possible to have him in N64's Smash.

There is no conspiracy.

Wario and Dedede are also a bigger deal than a lot of Melee newcomers.

It's almost like I cherry picked notable additions from each game to show my point. You always get some "big guns" to go with the smaller ones.

 

[Cosmic77]

Diddy Kong is definitely on the level of Melee newcomers. The only ones he's outclassed by are Peach and Bowser. Zelda rarely does stuff in games prior to Ocarina of Time, and even that role didn't deserve her getting in twice. Diddy is also a better newcomer than Ganondorf and the other clones, even better than the likes of Ice Climbers and Marth honestly.

I'll agree with you on all but Zelda and Mewtwo. Even if she didn't do much of anything, Zelda was definitely in a higher class. She's the Princess Peach of the LoZ series. As for Mewtwo, there's a reason why he was initially planned to be in 64. The Pokémon anime's first movie did wonders for his popularity.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Diddy is absolutely a step down from two main villains, one of the most well-known Pokemon ever and a main female character that is in the title of their own series.

You're just letting your bias blind you.

No.

Cause Ganondorf isn't the main villain. He'd still be around if he was. Ganon is the main villain, and he didn't even got the proper attention needed. GanonDORF has been the main villain in 3 games; OOT, WW and TP. Zelda also didn't even have proper roles before Ocarina of Time, Diddy had plenty. Even TWO games as a main character since.

This is still pretty damn huge, even compared to both Zelda and Ganondorf till this day.

Mewtwo tho? Very popular and very fitting yes, but no titles of his own and he still doesn't have them. But out of the Melee additions, he indeed was one of the more major ones, like Peach and Bowser.

There is no conspiracy.

Explain the censorship on Rare items, Rare being credited for Melee, the absense of even a Diddy trophy, and Sakurai's comments about Diddy making it in late in Brawl.

Maybe it's not exactly conspiracy, but it's odd, especially as everything related to Donkey Kong was related to the DKC part of the franchise, NOTHING to do with the arcade game.

UOTE="Schnee117, post: 21888790, member: 261779"]It's almost like I cherry picked notable additions from each game to show my point. You always get some "big guns" to go with the smaller ones.[/QUOTE]

Brawl had lots of noticable newcomers actually who where bigger in influence than many of the Melee additions.

>


It added the most recognisable Kirby characters, Diddy, Wario, and the most popular Pokemon Charizard. Then updated a clone as Young Link to represent a lasting graphic influence on the Zelda franchise, the first international Fire Emblem Lord in a 3D game with two appearances as main hero (RD released before Brawl), Pit who's got an actual revival out of his role, a second Metroid newcomer who made sense in Zero Suit Samus, Olimar and Wolf.

Diddy, Charizard, Wario and King Dedede could be argued to be of similar importance to the likes of Peach, Bowser and Mewtwo. None newcomers ever since could be held to a similar standard.

Even the more minor character additions of Brawl are a far better batch than the odd choices of Melee, and the way out choices of Smash 4. It even added Sonic. Brawl's rosters biggest mistake was not adding Mewtwo. That's literally the only thing missing from the roster.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

No.

Cause Ganondorf isn't the main villain. He'd still be around if he was. Ganon is the main villain, and he didn't even got the proper attention needed. GanonDORF has been the main villain in 3 games; OOT, WW and TP. Zelda also didn't even have proper roles before Ocarina of Time, Diddy had plenty. Even TWO games as a main character since.

This is still pretty damn huge, even compared to both Zelda and Ganondorf till this day.

Mewtwo tho? Very popular and very fitting yes, but no titles of his own and he still doesn't have them. But out of the Melee additions, he indeed was one of the more major ones, like Peach and Bowser.



Explain the censorship on Rare items, Rare being credited for Melee, the absense of even a Diddy trophy, and Sakurai's comments about Diddy making it in late in Brawl.

Maybe it's not exactly conspiracy, but it's odd, especially as everything related to Donkey Kong was related to the DKC part of the franchise, NOTHING to do with the arcade game.

Brawl had lots of noticable newcomers actually who where bigger in influence than many of the Melee additions.

>


It added the most recognisable Kirby characters, Diddy, Wario, and the most popular Pokemon Charizard. Then updated a clone as Young Link to represent a lasting graphic influence on the Zelda franchise, the first international Fire Emblem Lord in a 3D game with two appearances as main hero (RD released before Brawl), Pit who's got an actual revival out of his role, a second Metroid newcomer who made sense in Zero Suit Samus, Olimar and Wolf.

Diddy, Charizard, Wario and King Dedede could be argued to be of similar importance to the likes of Peach, Bowser and Mewtwo. None newcomers ever since could be held to a similar standard.

Even the more minor character additions of Brawl are a far better batch than the odd choices of Melee, and the way out choices of Smash 4. It even added Sonic. Brawl's rosters biggest mistake was not adding Mewtwo. That's literally the only thing missing from the roster.

I feel inclined to ignore everything you said after saying GANONdorf, an incarnation of GANON isn't the main antagonist, but that GANON is. But I'll bite
Zelda's the titular character, that alone makes her above Diddy considering how beloved the franchises are. Zelda was the Mcguffin in the first 2 games, helped start Link's adventure in the third game, was merely referenced in the fourth and got a bigger role in the fifth game, then Melee came out.
One of those games is only named by Diddy in the subtitle, the other is a spinoff game, which works for Zelda too, CDi anyone?
Mewtwo and Chairzard are both some of the most popular period, we can clearly see this with the fact they both got 2 Mega Evolutions and no other Pokemon did
That's not a conspiracy, that's legal issues with Sakurai not really knowing the answer to at that point
None of those points go against Schnee's 'big guns' statement
Melee was rushed as it was meant to be a launch title iirc. Brawl got multiple, long delays and wasn't a launch title, meaning they had more freedom to make unique characters. Hell, Sonic caused the final delay and likely got Mewtwo and co scrapped

 

[Opossum]

No.

Cause Ganondorf isn't the main villain. He'd still be around if he was. Ganon is the main villain, and he didn't even got the proper attention needed. GanonDORF has been the main villain in 3 games; OOT, WW and TP. Zelda also didn't even have proper roles before Ocarina of Time, Diddy had plenty. Even TWO games as a main character since.

This is still pretty damn huge, even compared to both Zelda and Ganondorf till this day.

Mewtwo tho? Very popular and very fitting yes, but no titles of his own and he still doesn't have them. But out of the Melee additions, he indeed was one of the more major ones, like Peach and Bowser.



Explain the censorship on Rare items, Rare being credited for Melee, the absense of even a Diddy trophy, and Sakurai's comments about Diddy making it in late in Brawl.

Maybe it's not exactly conspiracy, but it's odd, especially as everything related to Donkey Kong was related to the DKC part of the franchise, NOTHING to do with the arcade game.

It's almost like I cherry picked notable additions from each game to show my point. You always get some "big guns" to go with the smaller ones.

Brawl had lots of noticable newcomers actually who where bigger in influence than many of the Melee additions.

>


It added the most recognisable Kirby characters, Diddy, Wario, and the most popular Pokemon Charizard. Then updated a clone as Young Link to represent a lasting graphic influence on the Zelda franchise, the first international Fire Emblem Lord in a 3D game with two appearances as main hero (RD released before Brawl), Pit who's got an actual revival out of his role, a second Metroid newcomer who made sense in Zero Suit Samus, Olimar and Wolf.

Diddy, Charizard, Wario and King Dedede could be argued to be of similar importance to the likes of Peach, Bowser and Mewtwo. None newcomers ever since could be held to a similar standard.

Even the more minor character additions of Brawl are a far better batch than the odd choices of Melee, and the way out choices of Smash 4. It even added Sonic. Brawl's rosters biggest mistake was not adding Mewtwo. That's literally the only thing missing from the roster.

Mewtwo is definitely bigger as a character than Diddy. The success of Red and Blue and Mewtwo Strikes Back is far more than DKC2 can even dream of.

And Ganondorf IS Ganon.

Diddy is definitely below Peach, Bowser, Zelda, Ganondorf, and Mewtwo in terms of importance.

 

[Schnee117]

No.

Cause Ganondorf isn't the main villain. He'd still be around if he was. Ganon is the main villain, and he didn't even got the proper attention needed.

Ganon and Ganondorf are one in the same. To say they're different is just splitting hairs.

Zelda also didn't even have proper roles before Ocarina of Time, Diddy had plenty.

"Proper roles" is just a shift of the goal posts.

Explain the censorship on Rare items, Rare being credited for Melee, the absense of even a Diddy trophy, and Sakurai's comments about Diddy making it in late in Brawl.

Maybe it's not exactly conspiracy, but it's odd, especially as everything related to Donkey Kong was related to the DKC part of the franchise, NOTHING to do with the arcade game.

Rare got bought out by MS around that time which complicated a lot of things.

Brawl had lots of noticable newcomers actually who where bigger in influence than many of the Melee additions.

>


It added the most recognisable Kirby characters, Diddy, Wario, and the most popular Pokemon Charizard. Then updated a clone as Young Link to represent a lasting graphic influence on the Zelda franchise, the first international Fire Emblem Lord in a 3D game with two appearances as main hero (RD released before Brawl), Pit who's got an actual revival out of his role, a second Metroid newcomer who made sense in Zero Suit Samus, Olimar and Wolf.

That doesn't counter my point at all. That's just expanding on what I said.

Diddy, Charizard, Wario and King Dedede could be argued to be of similar importance to the likes of Peach, Bowser and Mewtwo. None newcomers ever since could be held to a similar standard.
.

The only one you could definitely argue is Charizard.
Diddy, Wario and DeDeDe are not on the level of Melee's top newcomers.

 

[Cosmic77]

So here's a good question. A few weeks ago, Nintendo revealed that Odyssey has been purchased by more than half of Nintendo Switch owners and has sold over 5 million copies in just six weeks. A week or so after that, it was revealed that Odyssey, after eight weeks, has already become Japan's best-selling 3D Mario game, beating out the previous owner of that title, 3D Land. Given the success of Odyssey, do you think Sakurai will try to add an unexpected newcomer like Cappy or Pauline just for the sake of having a character who can represent the game, or do you think a new move for Mario and/or a new stage is the most we'll get out of this?

 

[Schnee117]

So here's a good question. A few weeks ago, Nintendo revealed that Odyssey has been purchased by more than half of Nintendo Switch owners and has sold over 5 million copies in just six weeks. A week or so after that, it was revealed that Odyssey, after eight weeks, has already become Japan's best-selling 3D Mario game, beating out the previous owner of that title, 3D Land. Given the success of Odyssey, do you think Sakurai will try to add an unexpected newcomer like Cappy or Pauline just for the sake of having a character who can represent the game, or do you think a new move for Mario and/or a new stage is the most we'll get out of this?

I'm not expecting Pauline, Cappy or any Odyssey character at all right now. Maybe if both get more roles in the future then sure but I doubt it.

I think Mario's moveset is fine as is really, FLUDD is a nice tool to have when someone's trying to recover.

I do expect a stage to show up and hope it's New Donk City. It's the best area in the game easily with Luncheon in second.

 

[Pakky]

I'm not expecting Pauline, Cappy or any Odyssey character at all right now. Maybe if both get more roles in the future then sure but I doubt it.

I think Mario's moveset is fine as is really, FLUDD is a nice tool to have when someone's trying to recover.

I do expect a stage to show up and hope it's New Donk City. It's the best area in the game easily with Luncheon in second.

Pauline, I could see because you can draw from more than just Oddesy

Cappy feels more natural and has more utility than FLUDD .

-Extra platform
-Could aid recovery
-Could stop enemy recover
- Combo potential


Also, Ganon and GanonDORF are technically the same but a treated as slightly different beings in lore depending on the game.Which is applicable to other characters because that has happened in Zelda before, OOT Link and Twilight Link are two different people who shared a title and have harbored the courage of the hero. But are they exactly the same being, eh no.

Also yeah, not even Luigi has had a stand-alone game, not until fairly recently so Diddy being bigger at least at a time ain't really wrong to say. The Rate hate may be fictional but the xenophobia is palatable, Bayonetta (who I believe was already planned look at Samus for clues) got in over anyone from DK. Strange.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Mewtwo is definitely bigger as a character than Diddy. The success of Red and Blue and Mewtwo Strikes Back is far more than DKC2 can even dream of.

And Ganondorf IS Ganon.

Diddy is definitely below Peach, Bowser, Zelda, Ganondorf, and Mewtwo in terms of importance.

Wanna argue? Okay, well there was a MAJOR console war going on in the era before Smash as well. Nintendo brought in BIG MONEY because of one game alone that revolutionized platform gaming even till today's standards. That game was; Donkey Kong Country.

It's sequel was a game with Diddy as the main character. No other sidekick character in Nintendo gaming franchises made this leap. Wario and Yoshi come closest. And then by that logic, it's quite damn weird that Diddy and Wario wheren't in Smash Bros. 64 and Yoshi was.

Also I argue two own games as main hero / character weights in more than a movie. But yeah, to each their own.

Ganon might be important, but Ganondorf had only gotten in because of OOT. And his moveset wasn't even properly fleshed out, even till today. Next thing you wanna say Fi is more important than Diddy, since the Master Sword has been around longer than Diddy Kong has. Same identity as character =/= the same importance in character roles. This is why Sheik and Ganondorf today are piss poor reflections of the overall Zelda cast.

Wanna argue Sheik is more important than Diddy as well?

The only characters on par with Diddy's level of iconicness and overall importance are Bowser, Peach (only because of her playable role in SMB2 mind you) and Mewtwo. Diddy Kong is definitely more important than Zelda (who only showed up at game endings and a short dungeon in ALTTP on the SNES outside of OOT before Melee) and GanonDORF (who like Sheik, isn't exactly the same in importance as Ganon himself).

Then again it's a good distraction point you make to neglect the fact that Diddy is easily a stronger inclusion than all of the other newcomer characters in Melee not mentoined. If it wasn't for Sonic and his massive popularity, Diddy would've been the most important newcomer of Brawl without a doubt.

Rare got bought out by MS around that time which complicated a lot of things.

And if it wasn't, Diddy would've been in Melee. Count on that.

That doesn't counter my point at all. That's just expanding on what I said.
Yes true but that was my intention. There's always a difference in importance of newcomer in Smash games. I just think that overall, Brawl was the game which added the most important and 'missing' characters from the base roster of Melee. And my main arguement was that Smash 4's newcomers where just lackluster overall. Even compared to the 'lesser' newcomers of Brawl.

QUOTE="Schnee117, post: 21888827, member: 261779"]The only one you could definitely argue is Charizard.
Diddy, Wario and DeDeDe are not on the level of Melee's top newcomers.

Funny you said that. Cause from certain sources it's stated that both King Dedede and Wario where considered for Melee, but dropped. Dedede in favor of the clones, and Wario in favor of Dr.Mario cause Sakurai wanted to give him a better moveset than just being a Mario clone.

Charizard might've been out prioritised by Mewtwo, but Diddy is certainly the biggest name totally absent. And he doesn't even have a regular trophy while all others do. How you gonna explain that? He was even noted in Dixie's trophy as her boyfriend.

 

[Opossum]

Wanna argue? Okay, well there was a MAJOR console war going on in the era before Smash as well. Nintendo brought in BIG MONEY because of one game alone that revolutionized platform gaming even till today's standards. That game was; Donkey Kong Country.

It's sequel was a game with Diddy as the main character. No other sidekick character in Nintendo gaming franchises made this leap. Wario and Yoshi come closest. And then by that logic, it's quite damn weird that Diddy and Wario wheren't in Smash Bros. 64 and Yoshi was.

Also I argue two own games as main hero / character weights in more than a movie. But yeah, to each their own.

Ganon might be important, but Ganondorf had only gotten in because of OOT. And his moveset wasn't even properly fleshed out, even till today. Next thing you wanna say Fi is more important than Diddy, since the Master Sword has been around longer than Diddy Kong has. Same identity as character =/= the same importance in character roles. This is why Sheik and Ganondorf today are piss poor reflections of the overall Zelda cast.

Wanna argue Sheik is more important than Diddy as well?

The only characters on par with Diddy's level of iconicness and overall importance are Bowser, Peach (only because of her playable role in SMB2 mind you) and Mewtwo. Diddy Kong is definitely more important than Zelda (who only showed up at game endings and a short dungeon in ALTTP on the SNES outside of OOT before Melee) and GanonDORF (who like Sheik, isn't exactly the same in importance as Ganon himself).

Then again it's a good distraction point you make to neglect the fact that Diddy is easily a stronger inclusion than all of the other newcomer characters in Melee not mentoined. If it wasn't for Sonic and his massive popularity, Diddy would've been the most important newcomer of Brawl without a doubt.


And if it wasn't, Diddy would've been in Melee. Count on that.



Funny you said that. Cause from certain sources it's stated that both King Dedede and Wario where considered for Melee, but dropped. Dedede in favor of the clones, and Wario in favor of Dr.Mario cause Sakurai wanted to give him a better moveset than just being a Mario clone.

Charizard might've been out prioritised by Mewtwo, but Diddy is certainly the biggest name totally absent. And he doesn't even have a regular trophy while all others do. How you gonna explain that? He was even noted in Dixie's trophy as her boyfriend.

Your issue is a combination of misconstruing my argument and moving the goalposts.

I'm not saying Diddy is irrelevant. But when compared to Peach, Zelda, Bowser, Ganondorf, and Mewtwo, Diddy is definitely on a lower level. Like, the next level under, not several levels.

Ganondorf is Ganon, and as such, any iconicness either has is shared. Fi is a different case, since the Master Sword didn't start out as a character and became one 25 years later, while Ganon was already a character but simply changed appearance when becoming Ganondorf. A character becoming a differently-shaped character twelve years after his debut isn't the same as an item becoming a differently named character 25 years after. Ganon and Ganondorf share the same role anyway, the main villain, so your point is moot.

And you're critically understating Zelda's importance. The namesake and second most major character of Nintendo's third biggest franchise is much more important than DK's sidekick.

And going off of that the whole "Wario was supposed to be in Melee" thing is just as bogus as the "Peach, Meowth, and Pit were planned for 64" thing.

 

[Schnee117]

>

And if it wasn't, Diddy would've been in Melee. Count on that.

No.

Funny you said that. Cause from certain sources it's stated that both King Dedede and Wario where considered for Melee, but dropped. Dedede in favor of the clones, and Wario in favor of Dr.Mario cause Sakurai wanted to give him a better moveset than just being a Mario clone.

Charizard might've been out prioritised by Mewtwo, but Diddy is certainly the biggest name totally absent. And he doesn't even have a regular trophy while all others do. How you gonna explain that? He was even noted in Dixie's trophy as her boyfriend.

That in no way contradicts anything I said.

Diddy doesn't have the trophy because he just doesn't. There's no need to reach for a conspiracy where there isn't one.
Either the Rare buyout messed things up or they just didn't have a Diddy trophy.
It's that simple.

 

[andimidna]

Omg hellooo
I remember some of these names
I haven't been on smashboards in like 3 years
Anyways I think the top priorities would be (besides returns) a Splatoon character (Inkling), an Arms characters (Spring man/ Ribbon girl swap), a retro characters (Takamaru), a new Xenoblade character (?), and a new Pokémon (Decidueye)

Edit: I like to tell myself Impa (or even Midna or Urbosa lmao) is in that group at the top too, but it's almost definitely not true.

Edit 2: I don't agree that ideas are running out honestly. New IPs will come naturally overtime. I mean, if Splatoon hasn't already accomplished the same as Pikmin or smth, I feel like it will. Like it's on it's way to that same high standard, with arms maybe right behind it. Also, with major characters like Toad, Ridley, and Meowth left behind, it definitely seems like suitability/ being fun to play (or just advertisement lmao) was by far a larger focus than long-standing importance/recognizability

 

[Arcadenik]

Hmm... I have a feeling that 2018 is when Smash 5 development might start. The timing seems right to me.

Brawl development began in October 2005... approximately 4 years after Melee was released.

SSB4 development began sometime after March 2012, which was when Kid Icarus Uprising was released... approximately 4 years after Brawl was released.

SSB4 was released in late 2014... and 2018 means it will be 4 years. Oh! Maybe Smash 5 for Switch might be announced at E3 2019?

 

[Pakky]

If Soul Calibur is coming to Smash I want Ivy with her cool whip sword, Nightmare is lame...

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Hmm... I have a feeling that 2018 is when Smash 5 development might start. The timing seems right to me.

Brawl development began in October 2005... approximately 4 years after Melee was released.

SSB4 development began sometime after March 2012, which was when Kid Icarus Uprising was released... approximately 4 years after Brawl was released.

SSB4 was released in late 2014... and 2018 means it will be 4 years. Oh! Maybe Smash 5 for Switch might be announced at E3 2019?

You'd need to factor in DLC though, which extended development time by a few months.

And the fact that Sakurai is already working on something.

And the fact that Iwata isn't around to ask Sakurai to work on a Smash game anymore which may make my second point worthless, but whatever.

 

[Freduardo]

No.

Cause Ganondorf isn't the main villain. He'd still be around if he was. Ganon is the main villain, and he didn't even got the proper attention needed. GanonDORF has been the main villain in 3 games; OOT, WW and TP. Zelda also didn't even have proper roles before Ocarina of Time, Diddy had plenty. Even TWO games as a main character since.

This is still pretty damn huge, even compared to both Zelda and Ganondorf till this day.

Mewtwo tho? Very popular and very fitting yes, but no titles of his own and he still doesn't have them. But out of the Melee additions, he indeed was one of the more major ones, like Peach and Bowser.



Explain the censorship on Rare items, Rare being credited for Melee, the absense of even a Diddy trophy, and Sakurai's comments about Diddy making it in late in Brawl.

Maybe it's not exactly conspiracy, but it's odd, especially as everything related to Donkey Kong was related to the DKC part of the franchise, NOTHING to do with the arcade game.

UOTE="Schnee117, post: 21888790, member: 261779"]It's almost like I cherry picked notable additions from each game to show my point. You always get some "big guns" to go with the smaller ones.

Technically in A Link to the Past had Ganondorf. The thief Ganondorf was the one who wished on the triforce to create the dark world where people were reflections of their hearts and he became Ganon.

 

[dezeray112]

So here's a good question. A few weeks ago, Nintendo revealed that Odyssey has been purchased by more than half of Nintendo Switch owners and has sold over 5 million copies in just six weeks. A week or so after that, it was revealed that Odyssey, after eight weeks, has already become Japan's best-selling 3D Mario game, beating out the previous owner of that title, 3D Land. Given the success of Odyssey, do you think Sakurai will try to add an unexpected newcomer like Cappy or Pauline just for the sake of having a character who can represent the game, or do you think a new move for Mario and/or a new stage is the most we'll get out of this?

I could see them implement a stage inspired by Odyssey for certain.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

So here's a good question. A few weeks ago, Nintendo revealed that Odyssey has been purchased by more than half of Nintendo Switch owners and has sold over 5 million copies in just six weeks. A week or so after that, it was revealed that Odyssey, after eight weeks, has already become Japan's best-selling 3D Mario game, beating out the previous owner of that title, 3D Land. Given the success of Odyssey, do you think Sakurai will try to add an unexpected newcomer like Cappy or Pauline just for the sake of having a character who can represent the game, or do you think a new move for Mario and/or a new stage is the most we'll get out of this?

I would a say a stage is a definite thing, but it seems 3D Mario stages are always a generation behind i.e. Delfino Plaza in Brawl and Mario Galaxy in Smash 4. A 3D world Stage would not shock me.

 

[Cosmic77]

I'm not expecting Pauline, Cappy or any Odyssey character at all right now. Maybe if both get more roles in the future then sure but I doubt it.

I think Mario's moveset is fine as is really, FLUDD is a nice tool to have when someone's trying to recover.

I do expect a stage to show up and hope it's New Donk City. It's the best area in the game easily with Luncheon in second.

Pauline, I could see because you can draw from more than just Oddesy

Cappy feels more natural and has more utility than FLUDD .

-Extra platform
-Could aid recovery
-Could stop enemy recover
- Combo potential

Theoretically, either Cappy or Pauline could work. The biggest problem that both of them share is finding a reasonable moveset. Cappy needs Mario (or someone else like Mario) to function like he does in the games. Pauline doesn't really have any special skill or talent that could be used in Smash. Even when you look at her past games there's not a whole lot to work with.

The likeliness of a new move for Mario is debatable, but I think a new Odyssey stage should be a given. I can picture Sakurai creating a stage that transitions from kingdom to kingdom.

Funny you said that. Cause from certain sources it's stated that both King Dedede and Wario where considered for Melee, but dropped. Dedede in favor of the clones, and Wario in favor of Dr.Mario cause Sakurai wanted to give him a better moveset than just being a Mario clone.

And going off of that the whole "Wario was supposed to be in Melee" thing is just as bogus as the "Peach, Meowth, and Pit were planned for 64" thing.

Wario wasn't "supposed" to be in Melee, but he was indeed considered. A poll was held to see who the most popular Mario characters were, and Wario ranked third (I'm sure you can piece together who got first and second). He wanted to add Wario too, but since he was already adding two other Mario characters, he thought that Wario would be overdoing it. He commented that Wario could've happened if he scrapped another newcomer like Mewtwo or Marth, but he didn't like that idea. Sakurai never made a comment on why he chose Dr. Mario over Wario to be a clone, but I think his decision speaks for itself.

I don't know anything about Dedede being in Melee, but I do remember Sakurai saying he was always cautious about the amount of Kirby content since it was his own franchise.

 

[Deleted member]

Before anyone says Greninja and Mewtwo are not likely to come back, they will for sure. Greninja may be from "X and Y", but he get a new form in Gen 7 and Mewtwo is still really popular; probably more popular than Lucario. Mewtwo and Greninja are guaranteed to come back. What pokemon do you think is the most likely to be in Smash for Switch? It could be Incineroar, Decidueye or Lycanroc possibly because they are very popular and recognizable. I think Decideye even made it into the new Pokken Tournament DX. I would prefer Marshadow over the three Pokemon mentioned but we will see.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Sakurai never made a comment on why he chose Dr. Mario over Wario to be a clone

Probably because he felt like Wario deserved more than just being a clone.

We can't really confirm that, but when you look at his Brawl moveset (4 moveset is less unique because of back throw and up smash), making him unique was likely what Sakurai felt was more right.

 

[Diddy Kong]

>

LOL!

In WHAT way exactly is Metal Gear Solid in any shape or form more important to Nintendo as a whole than Donkey Kong ****ing Country?

Are you out of ideas? So insecure you NEED to be right in a subject about a character who's name I even used as my username?

No.

*sigh* Yes.

It was a nice summer morning, turned 17 less than a month before this, and here was THE ONE Smash update I was looking forward to since learning that the Ness silhouette in Smash 64 wasn't in fact Diddy:

Notice the 'finally joined the battle' part?

Notice the resemblance to Donkey Kong 64? A game that's, y'know old news by the time Brawl was released?

Absense of his throphy? Rare buyout happening during Melee's development? Donkey Kong still being 100% based on DKC and all related stages and items?

You are kidding yourself that Diddy wasn't on the developer's mind and early drawings of the game.

That in no way contradicts anything I said.

Well guess what? Not everyone in life is always 100% right and 100% wrong.

Diddy doesn't have the trophy because he just doesn't. There's no need to reach for a conspiracy where there isn't one.
Either the Rare buyout messed things up or they just didn't have a Diddy trophy.
It's that simple.

Then explain the Dixie and K.Rool trophies, and explain how till today, we're still desperately asking for a playable appearance of either? Explain how Diddy was referenced to in both DK's biography in Smash 64, and Dixie's trophy in Melee? There's no reason for Diddy not to have a trophy. Literally every character who became playable in Brawl who was existant at the time got a trophy, except for Wolf, R.O.B., Ivysaur (who still has his evolution line present) and Diddy.

Lots of signs point to a playable role of Diddy which didn't get to fruitation.

Technically in A Link to the Past had Ganondorf. The thief Ganondorf was the one who wished on the triforce to create the dark world where people were reflections of their hearts and he became Ganon.

Yeah I saw that. Yet, that's hardly worth anything really. Ganondorf became only a proper character through Ocarina of Time.