Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Zerp]

Can you guess who got buffed again?

BAYONETTA SMASH ULTIMATE BUFF!
If you hit ABK, you can DABK and still keep another ABK!!! This is going to be so good for combo creativity. pic.twitter.com/0Bvul9V8Ve

— Kibzu~ (@SoraKibzu) July 29, 2018

If you guessed Bayonetta, congratulations, not only are you clearly insane, you're also correct!

Really though, this is a relatively minor buff but I have to wonder what kind of logic they're using when making these balance decisions lol.

Okay so I'm watching that UK Invitational and can someone tell me what happened with Mario and DK? Mario clearly sent DK to the blast zone and it went to sudden death and they still gave the DK the win? That's wack.

Didn't watch it but if Mario had higher percent and equal stocks then by most tournament rulesets he lost even if he sends someone to the blastzone, if they're not dead according to the game then they're not dead according to the rules. Most tournaments don't play sudden death and simply give the win to whoever had the lower percent when time ran out.

 

[KMDP]

The moment Sonic gets a hot pink costume is the moment I'll believe Shadow has a chance of being in.

So what you're saying is you want "Pink Sonic" in Smash.

 

[volbound1700]

I likely underestimated the clone/echo characters. I can see a few more making it in. I do think Impa is a great potential Echo for Sheik and Dixie could very well be an echo for Diddy Kong (although that wouldn't be totally right for her character).

Alright, so I decided to update my prediction with the reveal of some new news. That being the Simon Belmont Rumor (6 new characters + Simon), the December 2015 final planning period, and the obvious relevance of the Smash Ballot...

Here's my prediction

*Before reading realize the bottom line is potential DLC (except Mii's)

Additions (Non-DLC, 6 fighters, and 2 Echoes)
Dark Samus - An echo fighter of Samus. There are a lot of hints towards this (missing costume and no AT yet), and it would really work. Although I think Dark Samus should be an original fighter, she's more likely as an Echo
Dixie Kong - Echo of Diddy. I see a lot of people saying it wouldn't work, but I could easily see it. Moveset would need some tweaking, but every echo has a slightly different moveset in some regard.
Simon Belmont - Basically confirmed, and I would be down with it anyway.
Bandana Dee - Probably did pretty well with the Ballot, and would be a nice easy (as in simple mechanics) addition to the roster anyways.
Chorus Men - These guys were nearly in Smash 4, but the 3ds limitations prevented it. With no 3ds version to worry about, this addition makes sense to me. I could see them scrapping the idea, but I hope not.
King K Rool - I feel like Rool, Ridley, and Geno dominated the ballot. Most fan polls have King K Rool winning the poll, so it would be a smart addition.
Rayman - Imo the most likely 3rd party rep. Ubisoft has an incredible with Nintendo right now, so this makes sense. Also, the trophy inclusion in the last game is a good hint.
Geno - Like I said, Rool, Ridley, and Geno probably did incredible on the Ballot. This would be an incredible inclusion to please the fans.

DLC Additions (Note: I doubt ALL these characters will come)
Springman - Like most of the DLC, probably would've missed the cut due to the December 2015 thing.
Decidueye - Not sure if the 2015 thing would affect him, but I feel like we'd likely see him as a DLC fighter rather than a core game one.
Rex / Pyra - Same situation as Springman. I don't think Elma will be added since that game wasn't super popular, while Xenoblade Chronicles 2 definitely was.
Crash - Iffy, but I feel like Activision would be willing to play along. Would, of course, be a nice surprise
Isaac - Probably did pretty well in the Ballot, but not as well as the main 3, and probably not as popular to be a main-game inclusion. DLC would be a great treat though.
Banjo & Kazooie - Could definitely be in the works with the Nintendo/Microsoft love going on right now, but I think it's too late for the base game.
Doomguy - Bethesda and Nintendo currently have a solid relationship and this makes the most sense character-wise. Is a gaming icon and currently has a successful game on the Switch.​

Doomguy won't happen. The reason is that in order to do Doomguy (and notably his stage) correctly, you would literally have to increase the ESBR to Teen or higher. His series is based off violence and Satanic imagery. This is coming from someone that grew up playing the original Dooms and has played both Doom 3 and the recent Doom. (Still prefer the originals which got it down perfectly).

 

[blazefan519]

Didn't watch it but if Mario had higher percent and equal stocks then by most tournament rulesets he lost even if he sends someone to the blastzone, if they're not dead according to the game then they're not dead according to the rules. Most tournaments don't play sudden death and simply give the win to whoever had the lower percent when time ran out.

I'm aware of this, but the Mario clearly did kill him. You see the blastzone effects and everything.

 

[Fenriraga]

I don't know man, Considering Sakurai completed Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic 06, i don't think he would want to make Shadow a Carbon Clone of Sonic with TWO Spindashes and a Spring, considering in those games, Sonic 06 especially, he uses more of his Chaos abilities. you say "Canon Self" when referring to Shadow as an echo while ignoring all the other games in which Shadow as substantial differences with Sonic.

The thing with Sonic is that every character in Sonic has played like one character in a game before. for examples, Sonic Rivals has every be a Clone of Sonic except for a Super move. but just because that game didn't have characters express their abilities in gameplay doesn't mean you can define a character by that one game only, you got to look at all of them.

also, even in not in gameplay, Sega will always shove Chaos abilities for Shadow in a Sonic game, hell they even do it outside of gaming. Sonic X and Sonic Boom cartoon anyone? I don't see them allowing Shadow to Function COMPLETELY like a Clone of Sonic in one of the biggest games of 2018. Property Changes aren't enough to separate Shadow from Sonic considering Shadow's History of games and iconic status, along with his abilities being a big part of him

You know the games in which Shadow has a different style of gameplay to Sonic is greatly outweighed by the games in which he's a one to one Sonic clone, right?

The only times he hasn't is Battle, in which EVERYONE had to have something unique to them for the sake of a limited roster fighting game, and Shadow and 06. Even Shth is debate-able because he doesn't even use any of his dang Chaos abilities outside of Stage Skipping and massive explosions, both of which would NOT translate well to a fighter. Which just leaves 06 as his sole, defining gameplay style, and while conceptually Shadow is actually pretty cool in 06, I doubt Sakurai would have any intention of basing him off such an infamous title. And even still, his base foundation is still very much identical to Sonic.

And if we're talking both in AND outside of gameplay, I would argue that, say, Metal Sonic has shown MUCH more diversity from Sonic than even Shadow has. Maximum Overdrive, Black Shield, Copying abilities, shooting energy balls, surrounding himself in electricity, his robotic limbs letting him fight like no living organism could, his transformations like Neo Metal Sonic and Kai... Metal clearly has done SO much to separate himself from being Sonic's copy despite that being his purpose of being built. Yet people are still saying Metal would be an Echo were he to somehow make it. Why? Because both him, and Shadow, are still very much Sonic. Shadow Spindashes. Shadow uses springs. He has the Homing Attack. He punches and kicks. He is still Sonic at his core, a few interesting other abilities that he barely ever utilizes outside of them existing does not change that fact.

Characters like Tails, Knuckles and even Amy have VERY defining characteristics that differentiate themselves from Sonic, and they have had gameplay to back it up. Shadow has not.

Plus, you claim that SEGA wouldn't allow Shadow to be branded that way, and yet Knuckles' assist trophy has the homing attack, an ability he himself has NEVER used without Sonic's help. I don't think they really care as much as you think.

 

[KMDP]

I doubt Sakurai would have any intention of basing him off such an infamous title.

You say that, but... Metroid Other M.

Yes, I know it's not as infamous as Sonic '06.

 

[lordvaati]

For those struggling on who Puff's villain would be

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Can you guess who got buffed again?

BAYONETTA SMASH ULTIMATE BUFF!
If you hit ABK, you can DABK and still keep another ABK!!! This is going to be so good for combo creativity. pic.twitter.com/0Bvul9V8Ve

— Kibzu~ (@SoraKibzu) July 29, 2018

If you guessed Bayonetta, congratulations, not only are you clearly insane, you're also correct!

Really though, this is a relatively minor buff but I have to wonder what kind of logic they're using when making these balance decisions lol.

Didn't watch it but if Mario had higher percent and equal stocks then by most tournament rulesets he lost even if he sends someone to the blastzone, if they're not dead according to the game then they're not dead according to the rules. Most tournaments don't play sudden death and simply give the win to whoever had the lower percent when time ran out.

Or those are bugs. Though the idea to give Bayonetta more combo potential is dumb

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

For those struggling on who Puff's villain would be

I actually debated bit over Clefairy, but then thought it'd feel bit too .

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Shadow as a character plays like Sonic most of the time. It's his personality that is unique moreso than always his gameplay. If his personality isn't there, then it's a bad representation of the character entirely.

You want a real bad representation of Shadow? Sonic Boom. Despite his powers and abilities being there, he's a completely barren version of Shadow from the regular series while actually not having any likable traits, because completely angry for no reason, being mean for no reason, and just wanting to hurt Sonic... for no reason.

Shadow playing like Sonic is a very respectful way to make him work because it's actually what he is. He was always a Sonic clone and is still even similar to Sonic in design in Sonic Battle. They have more differences, of course, but they still have a lot of similarities even then. They have the same terrible Heal, they have a very similar type of Air Action,, their jump isn't that off as is, many of their moves alone have the same Points required, their Air Actions are based upon literally the same move, their Aim Attack, while different, are both extremely close while using their own feet and still being a very close attack(though at least this one is for most Aim Attacks), even their Run is almost identical, again sharing the same Points used. They're meant to clearly be similar in design even then, while still made unique. Take a look at the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd attack and they're not that off from each other. It's a Punch, Kick, Kick. Their biggest difference is the Upper and Heavy Attack, instead. His design is clearly something not unlike regular clone tweaks in Smash.

Besides that, Shadow being an Echo with Chaos aesthetics would fit just fine. He'd need minor animation changes, like changing some punches to chops instead. Kind of like what Luigi has in Melee. He could work as unique, echo, clone, or semi-clone due to being practically everywhere in character ability in his home series. None of these are disrespectful to him because it wouldn't be inaccurate anyway. I'll reiterate that the real major difference between Sonic and Shadow are their personalities... and they still would use a Super Mode anyway.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

This is the same franchise where the iconic villian of legend of zelda who uses a sword and magic was a clone of a dude from a racing game who punches things lol

 

[MainJPW]

Plus, you claim that SEGA wouldn't allow Shadow to be branded that way, and yet Knuckles' assist trophy has the homing attack, an ability he himself has NEVER used without Sonic's help. I don't think they really care as much as you think.

Knuckles can Homing Attack in the Rivals games.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Also, @MoonlitIllusion, you don't seem to be considering that Shadow, as a third party character, would be a Guest Fighter. It's incredibly disrespectful to SEGA, as well as Shadow as a character, to bring Shadow into a game where he could be unique and then just make him a low effort clone of Sonic.

The point regarding how Sakurai could view guest fighters in Ultimate is the only argument I feel works against the possibility of a Shadow echo. But whether such a suggestion can be considered offensive by SEGA remains to be seen. As for what I think, when it comes to echo fighters, I do not think Sakurai will think as critically of coming up with extra echoes as much as unique newcomers added in the initial project plan. It would all come down to whether or not the character is a highly popular request and if the body proportions can match those of the original counterpart to get working on the development. I think SEGA would be glad to allow Shadow to be made as extra dessert, even if Shadow had potential to flesh out his moveset more.

 

[blazefan519]

For those struggling on who Puff's villain would be

Is that a leaked story mode cutscene?!

Knuckles can Homing Attack in the Rivals games.

Pretty sure he homing attacks in Heroes too

 

[KMDP]

Or those are bugs. Though the idea to give Bayonetta more combo potential is dumb

Nintendo Social Media Representative: "Sakurai, fans are saying they are able to get 20+ combos with Bayonetta!"
Sakurai: "Hmm... so what you're saying is she isn't able to combo enough?"
NSMP: "Uh... no, I..."
Sakurai: "Okay, team, time to give that girl some buffs!"

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Nintendo Social Media Representative: "Sakurai, fans are saying they are able to get 20+ combos with Bayonetta!"
Sakurai: "Hmm... so what you're saying is she isn't able to combo enough?"
NSMP: "Uh... no, I..."
Sakurai: "Okay, team, time to give that girl some buffs!"

“And for old time’s sake, let’s also nerf Greninja while we’re at it!”

Yes I know that joke is old but I just HAD to

 

[Cutie Gwen]

HELLO AM MOD NOW. DO NOT PAY ATTENTION TO THE COLOUR OF MY USERNAME, ANYONE WHO KEEPS THIS DUMB SHADOW DISCUSSION GOING GETS PERMABANNED AND THEIR BANK ACCOUNT EMPTIED. GOOD DAY

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

For those struggling on who Puff's villain would be

I remember that

I always said thats how jigglypuff got in smash bros

 

[Guybrush20X6]

If we're going for a second Pokemon Villain after Mewtwo then Inceneroar could work as it's based off a Heel Wrestler.

Then again, there's Salazzle who is a poisonous salamander and Tsareena who should not be in a kids game.

What happens in Alola stays in Alola it seems.

 

[vaanrose]

This is the same franchise where the iconic villian of legend of zelda who uses a sword and magic was a clone of a dude from a racing game who punches things lol

Ganondorf's sword is less canon than his punches.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

You can make arguments for Shadow as a Sonic echo all you want, but like Dixie Kong as a Diddy echo, I'm gonna be real disappointed if he's portrayed like that.

 

[Fenriraga]

You say that, but... Metroid Other M.

Yes, I know it's not as infamous as Sonic '06.

It's really nowhere near as infamous. It's also still a soundly programmed video game despite its many issues.

It's also a Nintendo game.

Knuckles can Homing Attack in the Rivals games.

Fair. But I also sincerely doubt anyone at either Nintendo or Sega was considering that when giving Knuckles a homing attack. But that's also just speculation on my end.

 

[7NATOR]

You know the games in which Shadow has a different style of gameplay to Sonic is greatly outweighed by the games in which he's a one to one Sonic clone, right?

The only times he hasn't is Battle, in which EVERYONE had to have something unique to them for the sake of a limited roster fighting game, and Shadow and 06. Even Shth is debate-able because he doesn't even use any of his dang Chaos abilities outside of Stage Skipping and massive explosions, both of which would NOT translate well to a fighter. Which just leaves 06 as his sole, defining gameplay style, and while conceptually Shadow is actually pretty cool in 06, I doubt Sakurai would have any intention of basing him off such an infamous title. And even still, his base foundation is still very much identical to Sonic.

And if we're talking both in AND outside of gameplay, I would argue that, say, Metal Sonic has shown MUCH more diversity from Sonic than even Shadow has. Maximum Overdrive, Black Shield, Copying abilities, shooting energy balls, surrounding himself in electricity, his robotic limbs letting him fight like no living organism could, his transformations like Neo Metal Sonic and Kai... Metal clearly has done SO much to separate himself from being Sonic's copy despite that being his purpose of being built. Yet people are still saying Metal would be an Echo were he to somehow make it. Why? Because both him, and Shadow, are still very much Sonic. Shadow Spindashes. Shadow uses springs. He has the Homing Attack. He punches and kicks. He is still Sonic at his core, a few interesting other abilities that he barely ever utilizes outside of them existing does not change that fact.

Characters like Tails, Knuckles and even Amy have VERY defining characteristics that differentiate themselves from Sonic, and they have had gameplay to back it up. Shadow has not.

Plus, you claim that SEGA wouldn't allow Shadow to be branded that way, and yet Knuckles' assist trophy has the homing attack, an ability he himself has NEVER used without Sonic's help. I don't think they really care as much as you think.

Look up Gameplay of Sonic Rivals 1 and 2

also, you mention the games in which Shadow has differentiate himself from Sonic yet you say he has not differentiate himself from Sonic?

also just because a Character themslef is similiar in structure, don't mean that them being echo is the right way to go.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Ganondorf's sword is less canon than his punches.

And both pale in comparison to the almighty trident.

 

[MainJPW]

You can make arguments for Shadow as a Sonic echo all you want, but like Dixie Kong as a Diddy echo, I'm gonna be real disappointed if he's portrayed like that.

She can’t be and she won’t be.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

This is the same franchise where the iconic villian of legend of zelda who uses a sword and magic was a clone of a dude from a racing game who punches things lol

And there's apparently a high chance Dixie Kong would be an Echo even if it it'd go wholly against her character. So yeah, IDK if Shadow's anymore immune.

 

[Noipoi]

If we're going for a second Pokemon Villain after Mewtwo then Inceneroar could work as it's based off a Heel Wrestler.

Then again, there's Salazzle who is a poisonous salamander and Tsareena who should not be in a kids game.

What happens in Alola stays in Alola it seems.

Don't you diss Tsareena while i'm here! That marvelous mangosteen does wonders on my team!

 

[KMDP]

It's really nowhere near as infamous. It's also still a soundly programmed video game despite its many issues.

It's also a Nintendo game.

It's still a deeply unpopular game within the relevant fandom, and Sakurai still represented it over the other Metroid games.

 

[Zerp]

I'm aware of this, but the Mario clearly did kill him. You see the blastzone effects and everything.

Oh wow, that's pretty weird then, maybe it's a bug? I'm going to have to find this and watch this, that's really interesting.

Or those are bugs. Though the idea to give Bayonetta more combo potential is dumb

Yeah, it could just be a bug, but between this and the Witch Time change I think some of the buffing has to be intentional.

Nintendo Social Media Representative: "Sakurai, fans are saying they are able to get 20+ combos with Bayonetta!"
Sakurai: "Hmm... so what you're saying is she isn't able to combo enough?"
NSMP: "Uh... no, I..."
Sakurai: "Okay, team, time to give that girl some buffs!"

*watches Plup's Ridley die at E3*
*shakes head*
"I gave him so much time to learn how to SDI, damnit, now these people are going to complain when I nerf Ridley in the next update"

 

[7NATOR]

She can’t be and she won’t be.

Sakurai even said her hair is her defining ability in her Smash Trophy. To just ignore it would be....kinda criminal

 

[Deleted member]

HELLO AM MOD NOW. DO NOT PAY ATTENTION TO THE COLOUR OF MY USERNAME, ANYONE WHO KEEPS THIS DUMB SHADOW DISCUSSION GOING GETS PERMABANNED AND THEIR BANK ACCOUNT EMPTIED. GOOD DAY

Spoiler

I SEE NO, HEAR NO EVIL
BLACK WRITINGS ON THE WALL
UNLEASHED A MILLION FACES
AND ONE BY ONE THEY FALL
BLACK-HEARTED EVIL
BRAVE-HEARTED HERO
I AM ALL, I AM ALL, I AM
I... I... I... I AM!
HERE WE GO, BUDDY
HERE WE GO, BUDDY
HERE WE GO
HERE WE GO, BUDDY
HERE WE GO
GO AHEAD AND TRY TO SEE THROUGH ME
DO IT IF YOU DARE (DARE!)
ONE STEP FORWARD, TWO STEPS BACK
I'M STILL HERE (ONE STEP FORWARD, TWO STEPS BACK)
DO IT... DO IT... DO IT... DO IT!
CAN YOU SEE ALL OF ME?
WALK INTO MY MYSTERY
STEP INSIDE AND HOLD ON FOR DEAR LIFE
DO YOU REMEMBER ME?
CAPTURE YOU OR SET YOU FREE
I AM ALL, I AM ALL OF ME
(I AM, I AM ALL OF ME!)
I AM... I AM, I'M ALL OF ME
I AM... I AM, I'M ALL OF ME
I AM... I AM, I'M ALL OF ME
I AM... I AM, I'M ALL OF ME
(HERE WE GO, HERE WE GO)
I AM, I AM, I'M ALL OF ME!
(HERE WE GO)
I AM, I AM ALL OF ME...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Knuckles can Homing Attack in the Rivals games.

And in Shadow The Hedgehog.

It's really not something special, to be honest.

-----------

And Dixie can absolutely be an Echo. She has the same 1:1 body type. The only point even worth considering is her hair being animated, but that can be set as its own animation piece that has no effect on battle and all is fixed. This idea she "can't and won't" is a bad argument to make. Not to say I think she should be an Echo, but that's not how it works. You don't know what she'll be till the game releases and only if she's playable. What the reality is is that she doesn't lack anything to directly prevent him from being an Echo.

In order to be impossible to be an Echo, they must have a different model that isn't 1:1(and then would have a chance to be a clone, semi-clone, or unique). If you want a real example of a character who has a different model, look at Isabelle. Her model isn't 1:1 with Smash Villager, which makes her impossible as an Echo by design.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

Tsareena would be cool for smash

 

[Opossum]

I don't get the people who say that a third party echo would be "disrespectful." Fairly certain the folks in charge, hell, most people, don't care whether or not a character is completely unique.

 

[MainJPW]

Pretty sure he homing attacks in Heroes too

I don’t know if he can, I know he can air dash. When you’re a Power character being near an enemy will auto trigger a Speed and Flight Homing Attack but I cannot remember if there’s a situation where a Power character will perform one.

 

[Fenriraga]

It's still a deeply unpopular game within the relevant fandom, and Sakurai still represented it over the other Metroid games.

Correction, he represented it along with other Metroid games. Her moveset is also not based around Other M, nor did it stop him from doing things like making Ridley turn into Meta Ridley despite that never happening in Other M.

There's a difference between referencing something purely aesthetically and making it a key part of a character's kit.

 

[ReeseBalaski]

We're talking about Edgy the Hedgy now?

Shadow would be cool. But I think Tails or Eggman would get in first.

Also, the amount of edge that Shadow and Dark Pit would create together would be catastrophic. The world would be destroyed. Subspace Emissary 2: No R.O.B.s left behind.

 

[Metal Shop X]

Everyone talking about how Shadow should be a echo or not, and I am here thinking that, well, Scourge would be the perfect character for a echo of Sonic. I mean, come on guys, that's obvious as Ridley being too big for Smash.....

...Oh wait, that's true, he is already in, we can't make "Ridley is Too Big" joke anymore.

Dang, time pass so fast.

 

[Pyra]

>"Shadow will be an echo"
>"No! He can't be! That's wasted potential! He can do so many things!"

>"The as of yet unseen final smashes are probably going to be interesting"
>"Lol no it's easier and more straightforward to give them recycled or previous final smashes"

 

[Deleted member]

Also, the amount of edge that Shadow and Dark Pit would create together would be catastrophic. The world would be destroyed. Subspace Emissary 2: No R.O.B.s left behind.

But that's exactly why he needs to be in (so long as he has his guns). Dark Pit and Shadow would be the absolute best team for doubles.