Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[blazefan519]

So, has loz18 leaked anything other than "Zelda redesign", "Stage first, then character" and "Daisy is in" for this particular Smash game?

For stuff he's accurately depicted, he talked about Echoes once specifying that they'd have a symbol next to their number, who would be included in the demo roster (all the DLC characters from Smash 4), as well as movesets such as Inklings and Link and Ganon changes.

 

[KMDP]

I can't find the topic so this is from what I remember which was:

-Zelda redesign. I think Ganondorf as well but I didn't care so I'm not sure
-Stage first, characters second
-Daisy
-Everyone returns, including Pichu (I remember him mentioning him)
-Inkling's entire moveset
-Something about the demo. Maybe the demo's roster? I'm not sure on this one.

For stuff he's accurately depicted, he talked about Echoes once specifying that they'd have a symbol next to their number, who would be included in the demo roster (all the DLC characters from Smash 4), as well as movesets such as Inklings and Link and Ganon changes.

So basically, things people would know if they saw, or knew someone who saw, the E3 Direct and Smash Demo (in advance).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Still think having a fighter who has shown to flinch when combat is even remotely occuring near them IN SMASH ITSELF and whose main characteristic is being the plucky support that does whatever she can to help others is a terrible idea and all counters I've heard come off as half-baked and desperation to prove the character they like should be a fighter.

But if Verge is right and Isabelle does end up in the game as a fighter, whatever.
Still wouldn't change my mind about her being a terrible concept for a fighter, but it's not like anything can be done about her being there at that point. At least people that wanted to see their little helpful shih tzu be forced out of her comfort zone for the sake of being able to play as her got what they wanted, I guess. -shrug-

Speaking of this, Smash already has a preset personality for Isabelle. Sakurai has never severely changed any character's Smash personality overall. They all remain generally the same. He already has a plan for her.

Even if she somehow becomes a fighter, she isn't going to show violent tendencies either, as it isn't how she acts in AC. Her guest appearances in other series are not something worth looking at when it comes to actually representing her characterization accurately.

Spin-offs like Mario Kart seriously only can be worthwhile to look at for Mario-related content. He could use MK8 as an excuse to want Isabelle playable, but it doesn't mean there's anything worth taking from MK itself when it comes to representing Isabelle. All that matters is Animal Crossing to begin with. Because she's an Animal Crossing character.

Though speaking of Rosalina, her being in spin-offs wasn't important anyway. Her having the potential to show off Galaxy-like moves via her Luma and representing an actual unused fighter archtype is what mattered(same with actually having popularity too). Beyond that, she has no legitimately proven qualms about fighting(being more passive doesn't mean lacking aggression after all), and even then, Luma is the main focus of the battle. If anything, the fact she sends Lumas to her death is the most inaccurate thing about Rosalina to begin with, not the idea that a Mario character would fight(you know, in an Adventure series where pretty much every character doesn't shy away from fighting whatsoever).

 

[papagenos]

Woah, just checked it out and maybe this guy is on to something!

papagenos you should do a video on LoZ18.

I havent followed this one but wow yeah thats some credibility if hes predicted what peopel are saying he did! I'll have to look into it now!

Hey hey, nice to see someone else who watches PapaGenos' content. Boy is fast when it comes to discussing leaks.

Thanks! trying to stay on top of smash speculation stuff as best i can!

 

[blazefan519]

So basically, things people would know if they saw, or knew someone who saw, the E3 Direct and Smash Demo (in advance).

Pretty much yeah. He and the anonymous guy on 4chan basically said the same things which leads me to believe that they were able to access it before hand. These leaks were only a day before E3.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

If Isabelle gets in, no harm no foul, I'd say. I mean, you literally whack her in the back of the head with a boomerang in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, so I don't see any problem with seeing her get dragged across the floor. Speaking of Animal Crossing, though, can we PLEASE get a stage that isn't Smashville 3.0?

Tortimer Island exists.

I don't remember Villager having a personality to begin with. That's the point. He can attack other characters if the player wants them to. The Net is a thing.

Again, he cannot be compared to Isabelle as there is no established personality no matter how you slice it.

Fair point on the AT thing, though. But I still stand it's the best position for her to be.

Also am safely ignoring any idea that her being in other games matter, as they don't reflect her personality at all. If it isn't an Animal Crossing game, it's 100% irrelevant to her characterization. It's the reason I think the Mario Kart 8 arguments are terrible. Sakurai likes to actually care about a character's personality. He's not going to care about some appearance in a game outside of the series when it comes to looking at their official personality, and for good reasons. It'd be inaccurate to who he's researching. She's going to only get in on her own merits in the Animal Crossing series, not some Mario Kart appearance that doesn't even reflect who she is at all.

From Sakurai's exact quote on Villager in Brawl:

“In fact, there was even a point where in the planning stages of the previous game, “Super Smash Bros. Brawl,” I removed the Villager, the protagonist of Animal Crossing, from consideration because he wasn’t suited for battle."

Sakurai viewed Villager with the same lens of "too peaceful", regardless of "blank slate personality".

 

[Icedragonadam]

So wait, did Vergeben say if Isabelle was unique or an echo? If she's unique that will kind of let my hopes down a bit TBH.

 

[CodakTheWarrior]

Saying "Isabelle is too pacifistic" sounds an awful lot like "Ridley is too big". The argument makes sense, but then you realize its Smash and nothing in it makes any semblence of sense. Why are Snake and Samus duking it out with Jigglypuff and Diddy Kong? Who knows? Who cares?

Honestly I don't expect Isabelle as an original newcomer mostly because she probably wouldn't bring much new to the table. That doesn't mean she won't, but it's still not all that likely. In all likelyhood she'll remain an assist, but I've been wrong plenty of times before.

I totally agree. It's beyond me why people are still trying to apply logic to Smash. This is a game where Pichu could beat down Ridley, so applying personality traits is so pointless. Sakurai has clearly been shown to ignore character features in the past, such as Rosalina having the Lumas fight for her (something she would NEVER do canonically). If Sakurai thinks Isabelle can fight, then she can fight. The 'pacifist' argument should never be used considering how popular of a character she is.

 

[osby]

even then, Luma is the main focus of the battle. If anything, the fact she sends Lumas to her death is the most inaccurate thing about Rosalina to begin with, not the idea that a Mario character would fight(you know, in an Adventure series where pretty much every character doesn't shy away from fighting whatsoever).

Lumas can't really die in Smash, though.

 

[Deleted member]

I will say if Nintendo or Sakurai and dev team are actively putting out fake info to trick people, though, then yikes. Sakurai really out here for blood this time.
i mean can you blame him with the entire smash 4 roster, roy and especially RYU FROM STREET FIGHTER got leaked

 

[Opossum]

...So nothing very clear? Yeah, not buying it. It has to be clear. And as pointed out before by another user, there was more to it than that. Does she actually specify she won't ever fight? She's able to fight in other Mario games, sure. But literally every Mario character is capable of fighting due to the nature of the series. This cannot be applied to Animal Crossing, who almost didn't get a character due to the nature of the series. You're comparing an Adventure Series which has a different universe and character designs(never mind Rosalina barely was allowed to be made due to the fact she even has a major personality, cause Miyamoto only wants that in the Zelda games for some reason) to a slice-of-life game that doesn't really try to include violence. There's a reason Villager is the only character playable, and that's because he has no personality to begin with. That's applicable to Smash and AC too, to note. Most characters in AC have more defining personality, but nobody is actually violent by design(even Resetti isn't, though he has enough anger to justify it, unlike pretty much everybody but Tom Nook at best. The rest all shows little personality otherwise. Isabelle is the stand-out character for two reasons; face of the series, and the personality that she only cares about helping the player with items, not actually taking major action herself. It's so rare it's ridiculous).

So why does literally any of that matter again? After all, if you can just dismiss refutations that go against your point, so can I.

Isabelle doesn't like argumentative confrontation. Never is it shown in-game that she's a literal pacifist for what is, essentially, a contact sport. A series as big and character-filled as Animal Crossing should not be stuck to one character, plain and simple.

Rosalina battles in a Mario game where there is no canon and all the games are considered accurate due to MIyamoto's own statements. Isabelle needs to battle in an Animal Crossing game or simply show the idea she wouldn't be against fighting for me in an Animal Crossing game to take that argument seriously.

Show me where Rosalina battled in the three games she appeared in before the roster was decided. Only Mario Kart Wii counts, if any, and if it works for her, it works for Isabelle.

Isabelle needs to be accurate to her AC personality only. That's what matters. Anything she does as a guest in another game((which Smash is irrelevant since she's already 100% accurate to her character in every way to begin with) is beyond irrelevant. There is no reason to treat her as a possible fighter because she's in another non-AC game. Now if you'd like to think she would fight despite her personality in AC, that's fair. But Mario Kart is so beyond irrelevant to anyone that isn't a Mario character it's ridiculous. It was always a terrible argument to begin with. And even if you don't believe the spin-off Mario games matter to a Mario character's personality, it wouldn't matter to any guest either.

Is this seriously the argument you've resorted to? To get Isabelle to be able to literally blow up literal infants with literal bombs, the Mario Kart team would need permission from the Animal Crossing team to do so. And guess what? They allowed it. The same can, and will, be done for Smash. Something doesn't arbitrarily not count because you decide it doesn't. Your arguments are beyond irrelevant.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I will say if Nintendo or Sakurai and dev team are actively putting out fake info to trick people, though, then yikes. Sakurai really out here for blood this time.
i mean can you blame him with the entire smash 4 roster, roy and especially RYU FROM STREET FIGHTER got leaked

On the plus side, he did change up the datamine info for DLC after Roy and Ryu to all Marios so we were surprised by Cloud, Corrin and Bayonetta. ESPECIALLY Cloud for me, that was a really nice surprise

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'mma be honest, this makes a ton of sense to me.

I got sent the ESRB videos before they publicly leaked just because I was connected to another leak, because the guy who sent me them was afraid to leak them himself and wanted me to do it for him. I refused and they got out anyway, but the point is, if you're a proven leaker, people come to you with more stuff. And I didn't even leak anything new, I just backed up someone else's leak. Verg has already done more to prove himself than I ever did.

He's fishing.

I've considered this.

But is it not possible that this Isabelle statement is the result of a successful fishing?

 

[Deleted member]

Show me where Rosalina battled in the three games she appeared in before the roster was decided. Only Mario Kart Wii counts, if any, and if it works for her, it works for Isabelle.

Does Super Mario 3D World count? She's an unlockable character in that game. I'm pretty neutral on this topic but it is a game in which Rosalina is playable and can do "battle" the same way that Mario characters usually "battle;" by jumping on things.

EDIT: Just noticed "before the roster was decided."

 

[KMDP]

I will say if Nintendo or Sakurai and dev team are actively putting out fake info to trick people, though, then yikes. Sakurai really out here for blood this time.
i mean can you blame him with the entire smash 4 roster, roy and especially RYU FROM STREET FIGHTER got leaked

It will be absolutely hilarious if it turns out Sakurai paid a portion of his team to make renders of characters just to make fake screenshot leaks, and these start showing up close to release, making leaks like the ESRB leak less believable.

 

[Deleted member]

It will be absolutely hilarious if it turns out Sakurai paid a portion of his team to make renders of characters just to make fake screenshot leaks, and these start showing up close to release, making leaks like the ESRB leak less believable.

I want this to happen, but only if they're photoshopped Little Macs.

 

[Idon]

It will be absolutely hilarious if it turns out Sakurai paid a portion of his team to make renders of characters just to make fake screenshot leaks, and these start showing up close to release, making leaks like the ESRB leak less believable.

Artsy Omni is hired purely to make real looking leaks and spread them out to all corners of the internet.

 

[osby]

It will be absolutely hilarious if it turns out Sakurai paid a portion of his team to make renders of characters just to make fake screenshot leaks, and these start showing up close to release, making leaks like the ESRB leak less believable.

I hope development team has this kind of freedom time.

 

[Apollo500]

On the plus side, he did change up the datamine info for DLC after Roy and Ryu to all Marios so we were surprised by Cloud, Corrin and Bayonetta. ESPECIALLY Cloud for me, that was a really nice surprise

That Cloud trailer was unforgettable. The moment those stars started scrolling the the opening before Bombing Mission started playing, I knew, but I couldn't quite believe it. Then Cloud appeared onscreen and I just flipped. I kind of regret selling Smash 4 cause I wanna play as Cloud again... I'll just have to make up for it in Ultimate!

 

[Deleted member]

On the plus side, he did change up the datamine info for DLC after Roy and Ryu to all Marios so we were surprised by Cloud, Corrin and Bayonetta. ESPECIALLY Cloud for me, that was a really nice surprise

THIS. Reminder; Final Fantasy VII, never appeared on a Nintendo console. But we still got Midgar in and Cloud Strife.
Literally the dream JRPG team.

These moments like these are so special and once-in-a-lifetime, like Snake coming back. ...now IF WE CAN GET MORE THAN TWO FINAL FANTASY SONGS, SAKURAI, PLEASE.

 

[osby]

THIS. Reminder; Final Fantasy VII, never appeared on a Nintendo console. But we still got Midgar in and Cloud Strife.
Literally the dream JRPG team.

These moments like these are so special and once-in-a-lifetime, like Snake coming back. ...now IF WE CAN GET MORE THAN TWO FINAL FANTASY SONGS, SAKURAI, PLEASE.

Beg to Square Enix, not to Sakurai.

 

[Deleted member]

...now IF WE CAN GET MORE THAN TWO FINAL FANTASY SONGS, SAKURAI, PLEASE.

inb4 we just get a remix of one of the two songs we already have and that's it.

 

[Apollo500]

THIS. Reminder; Final Fantasy VII, never appeared on a Nintendo console. But we still got Midgar in and Cloud Strife.
Literally the dream JRPG team.

These moments like these are so special and once-in-a-lifetime, like Snake coming back. ...now IF WE CAN GET MORE THAN TWO FINAL FANTASY SONGS, SAKURAI, PLEASE.

We need J-E-N-O-V-A, Bombing Mission and Electric de Chocobo at the very least. One-Winged Angel would be great, too, but it'd inevitably have to be shortened, which would kind of ruin it. Maybe a non-FFVII song, too, like Decisive Battle from VI, Force Your Way from VIII or Battle from IX. Ooh, or Seymour Battle from X.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Just a reminder that good, decent and smart people clamor for Cid's Theme in Smash.

 

[Deleted member]

One-Winged Angel would be great, too, but it'd inevitably have to be shortened, which would kind of ruin it.

They could always shorten it like they did in Kingdom Hearts.

I want J-E-N-O-V-A more than anything though. Song fits excellently on Midgar.

 

[Deleted member]

THIS. Reminder; Final Fantasy VII, never appeared on a Nintendo console. But we still got Midgar in and Cloud Strife.
Literally the dream JRPG team.

These moments like these are so special and once-in-a-lifetime, like Snake coming back. ...now IF WE CAN GET MORE THAN TWO FINAL FANTASY SONGS, SAKURAI, PLEASE.

Cloud has appeared in Kingdom Hearts many times, and Kingdom Hearts has been in Nintendo consoles.

 

[dezeray112]

On the plus side, he did change up the datamine info for DLC after Roy and Ryu to all Marios so we were surprised by Cloud, Corrin and Bayonetta. ESPECIALLY Cloud for me, that was a really nice surprise

If that datamine leak did not surface, I would've been hyped for both Ryu (since I am a fan of the Street Fighter series) and Roy (since he was my main in Melee.) But other than that Cloud and Bayonetta were my best surprises when they were unveiled.

 

[Deleted member]

We need J-E-N-O-V-A, Bombing Mission and Electric de Chocobo at the very least. One-Winged Angel would be great, too, but it'd inevitably have to be shortened, which would kind of ruin it. Maybe a non-FFVII song, too, like Decisive Battle from VI, Force Your Way from VIII or Battle from IX.

HOW Cloud got in and we never had One-Winged Angel is still makes me confused and sad. I'm praying that hopefully we get some more outside of VII.

Though the moment we get Seymour Theme from FFX we're immediately classifying Smash Ultimate as best Smash game, court adjourned.

 

[peachy!]

For stuff he's accurately depicted, he talked about Echoes once specifying that they'd have a symbol next to their number, who would be included in the demo roster (all the DLC characters from Smash 4), as well as movesets such as Inklings and Link and Ganon changes.

Loz said in of the threads that his uncle works at Nintendo and he had early access to the E3 demo.

ETA: for those wondering, this is the thread where he originally posted the leaks. Scroll down to #67. https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/76696004?page=6

 

[Rie Sonomura]

We need J-E-N-O-V-A, Bombing Mission and Electric de Chocobo at the very least. One-Winged Angel would be great, too, but it'd inevitably have to be shortened, which would kind of ruin it. Maybe a non-FFVII song, too, like Decisive Battle from VI, Force Your Way from VIII or Battle from IX.

No mention of Saber’s Edge from XIII? I know that game is hit or miss for many but that song is my JAM

What about non-FF songs as a whole? In my Smash 4 I modded in the following songs: Emptiness and (TWEWY), Blood on the Keys (Star Ocean The Last Hope), and Dragon God (Chrono Cross), ALL on Midgar!

 

[Apollo500]

They could always shorten it like they did in Kingdom Hearts.

I want J-E-N-O-V-A more than anything though. Song fits excellently on Midgar.

Yeah, if I absolutely HAD to pick just one, J-E-N-O-V-A would be it. It's exciting and catchy right from the opening chords, so it'd be a great fit for Smash.

 

[KMDP]

inb4 we just get a remix of one of the two songs we already have and that's it.

Worse, we get Final Fantasy VII remixes, but they're all deliberately in the worst fitting and/or least popular music styles they can manage.

 

[RileyXY1]

"This character doesn't fight" is not a good argument to say that a character should be in. Captain Falcon, Dr. Mario, Villager, Wii Fit Trainer, etc. are all non-combatants and they still got in. It's no different with Isabelle.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

From Sakurai's exact quote on Villager in Brawl:

“In fact, there was even a point where in the planning stages of the previous game, “Super Smash Bros. Brawl,” I removed the Villager, the protagonist of Animal Crossing, from consideration because he wasn’t suited for battle."

Sakurai viewed Villager with the same lens of "too peaceful", regardless of "blank slate personality".

That can be interpreted too many ways to make it clear what he meant.

But yeah, I forget he wasn't referring to the series. Thanks for the correction.

Doesn't really do anything for Isabelle either way, as Smash alone already shows her to dislike getting into battle. So who knows what'll happen. Regardless, it's a bad idea to consider her a safe bet instead of a viable option. Especially if we're trying to use non-AC games to justify the idea "she would battle" when they're non-canon appearances in every way for her.

So wait, did Vergeben say if Isabelle was unique or an echo? If she's unique that will kind of let my hopes down a bit TBH.

He didn't say at all. However, she's probably unique if she's playable.

Lumas can't really die in Smash, though.

Well, she still lets them get hurt. But yeah, this is the only thing remotely against her established personality at best. Her willingness to fight isn't established as "would or would not" either way. Uncomparable to Isabelle for that reason alone.

So why does literally any of that matter again? After all, if you can just dismiss refutations that go against your point, so can I.

Isabelle doesn't like argumentative confrontation. Never is it shown in-game that she's a literal pacifist for what is, essentially, a contact sport. A series as big and character-filled as Animal Crossing should not be stuck to one character, plain and simple.

Smash is not a contact sport. It's a fighting game. Smash already has a personality for her, which is a "won't fight". And it can be stuck as one character just fine, since the point of playing it is to collect items and such. In fact, only legit thing missing is Fishing at this point that is relevant. We have building houses via the Final Smash.

Show me where Rosalina battled in the three games she appeared in before the roster was decided. Only Mario Kart Wii counts, if any, and if it works for her, it works for Isabelle.

You aren't listening at all, are you? She would fight because it's a series where every character would fight. That was the point, no more no less. Don't try to act like I said or implied anything else. In addition, every Mario game happens due to Miyamoto's own statements. Rosalina in her own series has no issues battling. This is why her fighting isn't illogical in Smash. Don't cherrypick a Guest character because it fits your bad analogy. Mario Kart is a Mario game. It does not work for Isabelle because it's a non-canon appearance. The analogy will never work as long as you ignore the hard fact that Isabelle does not fight in her own series. If she starts taking real action in her own series, you will start having a real point. Till then, the analogy completely fails. Mario Kart Guests do not inherently reflect the character who are just fun appearances. If they aren't connected to the Mario series, they do not inherently reflect the personality that exists from their own legit series. Now if you want to keep with the argument that Isabelle isn't really a pacifist, that's fair. The Mario Kart analogy will still be wrong because it's not an Animal Crossing game regardless.

Is this seriously the argument you've resorted to? To get Isabelle to be able to literally blow up literal infants with literal bombs, the Mario Kart team would need permission from the Animal Crossing team to do so. And guess what? They allowed it. The same can, and will, be done for Smash. Something doesn't arbitrarily not count because you decide it doesn't. Your arguments are beyond irrelevant.

I didn't realize a non-Mario character should be counted as her canon personality despite not acting like that in her real games. Yeah, it's the correct argument to use on why MK is a terrible argument to begin with. Because it's correct. Mario characters don't have highly established personalities in order to justify them being in any kind of game(Rosalina is the first and only one with any major personality, and Miyamoto was not a fan of it, even reducing her role in Galaxy 2 just because he hates major story stuff in Mario games. Dumb, but eh). It's why he intentionally considers Mario characters akin to actors as well, so they can do anything he wants them to. Mario can be a villain. Peach can be a protagonist. Rosalina doesn't have to be passive at all. Bowser can be a hero. Luigi doesn't always have to be a coward. And so on. It's intentional. Any character in MK that has no strict connection to the Mario universe is irrelevant because unless they directly act like their own games, they're simply inaccurate appearances that only exist as Guests. This is the issue with pretending Isabelle should get in because of MK. It's pretending she's accurate personality-wise when it goes against her established one instead. The funny part is Smash actually does the opposite, directly reflecting her "will avoid fighting" personality that many think she has(though that may not be 100% accurate, as you do have a point that isn't beyond clear if she's a pacifist or not. That I agree with. Smash goes against your points, ironically).

 

[BluePikmin11]

I was out researching Animal Crossing games a while ago, and found this gameplay of amiibo festival, featuring Isabelle whacking a robotic Resetti with a toy hammer:

This was a very interesting thing to discover to say the least.

 

[SquashiniKun]

I will say if Nintendo or Sakurai and dev team are actively putting out fake info to trick people, though, then yikes. Sakurai really out here for blood this time.
i mean can you blame him with the entire smash 4 roster, roy and especially RYU FROM STREET FIGHTER got leaked

Sakurai's ****ING PISSED

(Also nice image of Vinny my dude)

 

[osby]

No mention of Saber’s Edge from XIII? I know that game is hit or miss for many but that song is my JAM

What about non-FF songs as a whole? In my Smash 4 I modded in the following songs: Emptiness and (TWEWY), Blood on the Keys (Star Ocean The Last Hope), and Dragon God (Chrono Cross), ALL on Midgar!

"Last Suprise" in Umbra Clock Tower.

 

[Apollo500]

Worse, we get Final Fantasy VII remixes, but they're all deliberately in the worst fitting and/or least popular music styles they can manage.

Bet you anything this is exactly what happens.

 

[Deleted member]

Worse, we get Final Fantasy VII remixes, but they're all deliberately in the worst fitting and/or least popular music styles they can manage.

Aerith's Theme in a jazz theme, let's goooooo

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Honestly, just include a **** ton of modern Kirby music. CROWNED, Under My Control, Triple Deluxe's regular boss theme, Sullied Grace, FLOWERED, VS Masked Dedede, VS Drawcia, VS Galacta Knight, Nature's Navel, Prayer Song of God, PROGRAM, any of Meta Knight's boss themes (even if most are Ridley theme-esque), etc. It's a crime that Smash 4 only included 1 of Kirby's phenomenonal boss themes and it was as DLC