• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


Results are only viewable after voting.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
Sorry Thirdkoopa Thirdkoopa , that was negligent of me. I'll give a proper response in a minute.

And yeah they do have to sell this game, but the time to sell this game isn't in late July/August when they have a December release. Honestly if I were their marketing executive, not that I'm qualified at all, but my suggestion would be to hold off on any major reveals at all until late October as in "if one of the newcomers we haven't seen fits a Halloween theme, show him then" and then I'd double up with another very long direct right about in the middle of November just before the Christmas shopping wave that shows everything you want to show pre-release with a pre-download option hitting the eshop the minute that direct ends. They've already hyped the community to the maximum, and for anyone sitting around agonizing about wanting even more information they don't really need to worry as those people are 100% guaranteed sales anyway. In the meantime they'll continue to cart the E3 demo to a variety of events which is actually a really substantial demo (30 characters in a demo! It's crazy actually) that is their pitch to sell this game to the competitive community (both the 4 community and the Melee community I'd note) and further inspires those competitive players to record and buzz about it and basically produce free marketing and promotion for them the entire time.

Maybe they'll feel more "generous" and share more earlier, but they have no incentive to satisfy our short term curiosity. We do have an almost literal mountain of demo footage available on youtube though so there's really no shortage of things to talk about. I could come up with maybe a dozen long/contentious discussion points just from the frame data we've gleaned from that alone. For instance, "Other than landing lag which applies to everyone, Ganondorf is actually on average even slower in Ultimate than in Smash 4 (though it's close). Do we really believe he can be a good character?". There's a topic I'm sure could inspire plenty of strong feelings and long discussions, and it's really just the surface.

It's a good question, actually.

What kind of character would act as a good counter for Bayonetta's playstyle?

Not being super huge into competitive and the nitty-gritty of character design, I wouldn't be able to answer the question.

(EDIT: Note, "Bayonetta herself"/"Jeanne" is not the right answer. XD)
It's my understanding smash 4 itself suggested the answer was Rosalina. There were just a lot more good Bayonetta players than good Rosalina players.

In general I'd point out that Bayonetta has "literally worse than Bowser" start-up on basically her entire moveset other than Witch Twist which has gotten a direct speed nerf in Ultimate. Any character that can make Bayonetta scared to pre-emptively press buttons and get really close to her in neutral should be a good candidate to threaten her thanks to that very significant change. That's not really the theory Rosalina uses at all, but it's an angle you could take.
 
Last edited:

SonicMario

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 28, 2007
Messages
4,063
Location
Mushroom Square
Originally they were going to give her a personality similar to the one Amy got in the Adventure games onwards.
I felt Adventure Amy was fine enough. Not super amazing but it was Heroes that started the trend of Amy going just a little too far in her obsession with Sonic.

"This time there's no way getting out of marrying me!" - Amy, Prior to the Team Sonic and Team Rose battle

Amy! You're only 12!
 

Noipoi

Howdy!
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
52,947
Location
Viva La France
It's a good question, actually.

What kind of character would act as a good counter for Bayonetta's playstyle?

Not being super huge into competitive and the nitty-gritty of character design, I wouldn't be able to answer the question.

(EDIT: Note, "Bayonetta herself"/"Jeanne" is not the right answer. XD)
Ashley.
Only a witch can defeat another witch.


Seriously i'm not a competitive Smash player at all. I don't know who could counter Bayo effectively, I just know she needs to be stopped.
 

Polan

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 23, 2015
Messages
1,089
Location
the deepest darkest part of my heart
I know everyone else just wants something new to talk about (and I'm not opposed to that) even if it's small, but I think the big concern I have is selling people on this game. Like, there's no way they're gonna go completely dark for the next four months when they have to,

1) Sell this game. This and Pokemon: Let's Go are their two only big system sellers this year.
2) Sell people on Switch's online. That's coming freakishly soon, so even if they avoid any content announcements, they have to start discussing this (or at least, it's in their best business interest)
its smash bros. why in the world are you worried that it won't sell?
 

Will

apustaja
Joined
Jan 18, 2014
Messages
33,915
Location
hell
Switch FC
SW-7573-2962-2407
It's a good question, actually.

What kind of character would act as a good counter for Bayonetta's playstyle?

Not being super huge into competitive and the nitty-gritty of character design, I wouldn't be able to answer the question.

(EDIT: Note, "Bayonetta herself"/"Jeanne" is not the right answer. XD)
You'd need lots of super armor, I think.
 

KMDP

Smash Legend
Joined
Jun 18, 2018
Messages
12,199
Ashley.
Only a witch can defeat another witch.


Seriously i'm not a competitive Smash player at all. I don't know who could counter Bayo effectively, I just know she needs to be stopped.
Bayonetta must be stopped, no matter the cost.
 

prowler12

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 15, 2018
Messages
84
Location
Kanto
Switch FC
SW-7518-9066-3502
i
It's a good question, actually.

What kind of character would act as a good counter for Bayonetta's playstyle?

Not being super huge into competitive and the nitty-gritty of character design, I wouldn't be able to answer the question.

(EDIT: Note, "Bayonetta herself"/"Jeanne" is not the right answer. XD)
i wonder if duck hunt is good aganist bayo
 

MainJPW

M.T.A
Joined
Sep 13, 2014
Messages
7,834
Location
Angel Island Zone
Sonic Team can't write? Are you telling you don't adore lines like-
"Green Hill Zone? More like Sand Hill Zone!"

Or guffaw at comedic genius like-
"Hey buddy! It's been generations since iv'e seen you!"

Clearly you have no taste./s
I know you’re joking, but a bunch of lines in the English dub weren’t in the Japanese version of the games script. That means there were no “Generations”, “Sonic torture” or “Tails has lost it” lines. Thank Graff for that.
 

Will

apustaja
Joined
Jan 18, 2014
Messages
33,915
Location
hell
Switch FC
SW-7573-2962-2407
Lots of Super Armour, you say.

Large Grappler characters tend to have a hell of a lot of Super Armour.
Yeah, they do.
:ultbowser:
He's a bit too heavy and ends up being combo food though.
 

blazefan519

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 26, 2018
Messages
540
I know you’re joking, but a bunch of lines in the English dub weren’t in the Japanese version of the games script. That means there were no “Generations”, “Sonic torture” or “Tails has lost it” lines. Thank Graff for that.
Oh my, first time here and I see Sonic Forces talk. I really just wanna forget that game, hire Ian Flynn plz
 

TheLastJinjo

Banned via Warnings
Joined
May 30, 2013
Messages
9,220
Location
Luigi
Smashboards won't process this picture for some reason so just ignore this post.
 
Last edited:

prowler12

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 15, 2018
Messages
84
Location
Kanto
Switch FC
SW-7518-9066-3502
Well there are a lot of characters I'm interested in. Ness and Villager were my Smash 4 mains so I'll probably initially start with them, but Inkling and Pokemon Trainer are looking nice too.
i meant what characters do you want as newcomers
 

blazefan519

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 26, 2018
Messages
540
https://sega.jp/special/sega-vote/list.html#segaVote04

Shadow won 2nd place in fav character poll behind sonic

im surprised the puyo puyo witch won in puyo side. wasnt aware she was so popular in japan

Goro and scottish fold cats makes sense lol
Even Sonic Boom mentioned that Shadow was the 2nd most popular character in the whole canon lol. For Puyo Puyo I heard that Arle was a popular character on the Japanese side of the ballot, we could see her as a possible rep.

i meant what characters do you want as newcomers
Oh I misread that as who'd I main for some reason lol. Bandana Dee and Captain Toad are my two top choices. Other characters that I'd like to see but aren't as super likely would be Alm/Celica (I don't want one or the other), Karate Joe or the Chorus Kids from Rhythm Heaven, and Shantae.
 

prowler12

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 15, 2018
Messages
84
Location
Kanto
Switch FC
SW-7518-9066-3502
Oh I misread that as who'd I main for some reason lol. Bandana Dee and Captain Toad are my two top choices. Other characters that I'd like to see but aren't as super likely would be Alm/Celica (I don't want one or the other), Karate Joe or the Chorus Kids from Rhythm Heaven, and Shantae.
i want anything but an arms rep
 
Last edited:

Opossum

Thread Title Changer
BRoomer
Joined
Aug 10, 2011
Messages
34,016
Location
This Thread
NNID
OpossumGuy
3DS FC
4742-4911-3431
Switch FC
SW 2859 6322 5208
Okay so I finished up the Klefki moveset by popular demand. :p

KLEFKI Unlocks Its Potential!

Normal Attacks:

Jab: Klefki holds two keys in each of its tendrils and swipes left and right in a two hit maneuver. Pressing the button a third time has Klefki quickly tackle the foe, while holding the button causes it to rapidly jingle-jangle its keys in front of the opponent with Metal Sound.

Dash Attack: Klefki dives forward and then hits upward with its horn for a two hit attack. Similar in execution to Rosalina's dash attack.

Forward Tilt: Klefki uses Astonish, jingling its keys as it swipes one of its tendrils forward. This move has relatively strong hit stun and low knockback, allowing Klefki to chain certain attacks from it fairly easily to form a combo.

Up Tilt: Using Tackle, Klefki propels itself upward by throwing its tendrils to its side, kind of like a jellyfish or octopus, striking foes above it with its horn.

Down Tilt: Klefki swats at the ground in front of it with one of its keys. Jingle jingle.


Aerial Attacks:

Neutral Aerial: Klefki connects its tendrils together to form a ring as the keys attached to it circle around the ring. A multi hit move that's like Mewtwo's with slightly less range due to Klefki's smaller size. He tries his hardest though.

Forward Aerial: Klefki swings its tendrils down in front of it. If the opponent is hit by the sweetspot, one of Klefki's keys, they get dunked.

Back Aerial: Klefki rears back and performs a twisting corkscrew maneuver. Another multi hit move, because Klefki has a lot of keys.

Up Aerial: Klefki uses Fairy Wind, stirring the air above it with its tendril, jingling as it goes. The foe is caught in the move for a bit before they're launched. A fairly strong move despite it not being a strong attack in the games proper.

Down Aerial: Mirror Shot is used. During this move, one of Klefki's keys glows in a whitish-gray light and is tossed downward. If the key hits the foe at the end of its range, they'll get dunked. The key then returns to Klefki magnetically. A very risky move to use, as Klefki won't be able to do anything until its key returns.


Smash Attacks:

Forward Smash: Klefki rears back as it charges, then fires out a beam of metallic light by using Flash Cannon. The beam travels just a smidgen shorter than Mii Gunner's side smash. This is one of Klefki's better kill moves, but it has some end lag.

Up Smash: Klefki shoots itself upward while delivering tons of electrical sparks, using Magnet Rise.

Down Smash: Klefki, after charging up, slams its keys and tendrils into the ground, causing barbed bits of metal to erupt around it using Spikes. The hit box, while strong, only affects grounded opponents, with no hit box being present in the air immediately around Klefki, making this move somewhat situational.


Pummel and Throws:

Pummel: Klefki stabs the opponent with a key, because Klefki doesn't mess around.

Forward Throw: Klefki holds the foe in its tendrils and slides them across the ground before tossing them.

Back Throw: Klefki sticks its keys into the opponent and suplexes them by using Foul Play.

Up Throw: Using Double Team, Klefki makes a copy of itself as both it and the copy ram their horns into the foe, sending them skyward.

Down Throw: Klefki tossed the foe downward and flips upside down, corkscrewing its horn into the downed foe. Ouch.


Specials:

Neutral Special: Fairy Lock - Pressing the B button has Klefki summon a transparent and spectral pink padlock around itself, not dissimilar to one of Shulk's Monado Arts. This disappears after a limited time, however. If Klefki has this active and presses B again while in range of a foe, the lock will snap shut and appear over the opponent instead. Now, the opponent is unable to jump for a short amount of time, being locked to the stage. They can still freely move horizontally, but vertical movement is restricted. The amount of time a foe's movement is restricted scales to both the foe's and Klefki's damage percentages, as well as how many times Klefki has used Fairy Lock. Repeated uses dampen the effect considerably.

Side Special: Thunder Wave - A mid-range projectile that Klefki has access to. By using this move, Klefki shoots out a ball of electricity about the size of its body, not including its tendrils. When the foe is struck, this move will do no damage, but will be considerably stunned, allowing Klefki to either follow up with an attack or run away. Essentially, this move is like a faster but non-damaging version of Robin's Arcthunder, befitting Klefki's status as a status-inflicting trickster.

Up Special: Play Rough - Klefki spins and flies upward, with hearts surrounding it as it goes, looking adorable as always...if an opponent isn't in range. If Klefki hits a foe at any time during its ascent, a cartoony fight cloud will surround the two, acting as a pseudo-command grab as the foe is damaged and dragged with you before exploding out of the cloud at the move's apex. Similar in execution to Wario's Corkscrew or Little Mac's Rising Uppercut.

Down Special: Crafty Shield - Klefki raises its tendrils up as a small barrier made of debris forms in front of it. Klefki, meanwhile, covers its face while behind the shield. This move completely negates knockback from low-power high-knockback moves, like Greninja's Hydro Pump, Mario's F.L.U.D.D., or the Gust Bellows, and will cut knockback in half for all other, stronger moves. However, if Klefki is hit with a sufficiently powerful attack while behind its shield, it will crumble. It's made out of debris it found lying around, after all. Like with Zelda's Phantom, some time will need to pass before Klefki can create another Crafty Shield.


Final Smash: Dazzling Gleam - Klefki, using the power of the Smash Ball, shines with a brilliant light. It giggles before shooting that light outward from itself, assaulting all caught in its path with a barrage of hard light. Foes caught toward the outer edges will be put into a dizzy state, but those closer to Klefki will take massive damage and knockback.


Playstyle: Klefki's playstyle is very similar to how it plays in the main Pokémon series. It's attacking power is weak on its own, so it specializes in whittling down the opponent with tricky status effects. Klefki's ability in the core series, Prankster, gave its status moves increased priority. Here, while weak, Klefki's attacks also come out early, for the most part.

This tricky nature it possesses is also emblematic of the Fairy-type, which, in addition to containing the cute and cuddly pink blobs we've all come to know and love, also contains more folkloric fair folk who can make life a living hell for all who cross them.
 

prowler12

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 15, 2018
Messages
84
Location
Kanto
Switch FC
SW-7518-9066-3502
Well if that EVO leak is true, that might be what you get. I'd be fine with Spring Man/Ribbon Girl since I do enjoy ARMS and I feel their inclusion inevitable kinda like Inklings.
i dont think an arms rep will make it in
 
Last edited:

KMDP

Smash Legend
Joined
Jun 18, 2018
Messages
12,199
Why is Eggman so low. Lol.
The Japanese aren't inclined to like Villains over Heroes as much as Americans are, for one.

May also have something to do with the change in voice actor, possibly.
 
Last edited:

KMDP

Smash Legend
Joined
Jun 18, 2018
Messages
12,199
Oh? Do tell
ARMS probably came out too late to get into the base roster (the first draft of which was made around the time the ballot ended, long before ARMS was a thing).

Also, don't double post, edit your posts instead.
 
Last edited:

Thirdkoopa

Administrator
Administrator
Writing Team
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
7,162
Location
Somewhere on Discord while working on something
rs in a demo! It's crazy actually) that is their pitch to sell this game to the competitive community (both the 4 community and the Melee community I'd note) and further inspires those competitive players to record and buzz about it and basically produce free marketing and promotion for them the entire time.
Okay so it didn't quote your entire post for some reason, but the short version is, I agree entirely. As much as satisfying short term curiosity with new information (i.e. new assist trophies, new stages, etc), they really are better off doubling down considering they already released a HUGE bomb. If you ask me, I'm right there with you with "it'll probably be october until we get something big". My only statement was "I doubt this is all they have to show us until the game releases and it'd be foolish otherwise"

*Also*

If I was the marketing exec, I'd personally wait until early November and just blow the lid on everything (or almost) in the game since it's going to get leaked anyways. They're far better off doing that at this point - they'll have enough traction before release even with the slew of competitive November titles.

its smash bros. why in the world are you worried that it won't sell?
I mean, trust me, I agree entirely, but there's certain choices that'll help the game sell even more. I'm just saying b/c of how marketing works in this industry, there's no way we're seeing jack until the game releases simply because there's too much to compete against and marketing.

The goal right now is for them to convince people who don't have switches yet, or people who aren't as sold on the game.
 
D

Deleted member 269706

Guest
Bayonetta needs some kind of rework if we don't want to see the same fiasco.

I think smaller hitboxes is the first solution. The second solution is taking away her "true" combos as this is what ultimately separates her from other characters. When another character wins the neutral against you, you might take another hit or two in a row, but if you get hit after that, it's because you didn't play the right move. With bayonetta, if she wins the neutral, you're getting hit over, and over, and over. Yes I'm aware of the ridiculous SDI you can use to (maybe) escape her combos. If you ask me it's bull**** that one character warrants the use of a specific technique. I also think the bat within mechanic is ridiculously underlooked and way too good of an option (frame 1 airdodge) but maybe there's a good point against that I haven't been exposed to.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

blazefan519

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 26, 2018
Messages
540
ARMS probably came out too late to get into the base roster (the first draft of which was made around the time the ballot ended, long before ARMS was a thing).

Also, don't double post, edit your posts instead.
True, but we've gotten characters that were added before the public knew about them like Roy and Greninja. It all depends on when the concept for ARMS was made as well

And okay, I'll edit my posts now.
 

KMDP

Smash Legend
Joined
Jun 18, 2018
Messages
12,199
Bayonetta needs some kind of rework if we don't want to see the same fiasco.

I think smaller hitboxes is the first solution. The second solution is taking away her "true" combos as this is what ultimately separates her from other characters. When another character wins the neutral against you, you might take another hit or two in a row, but if you get hit after that, it's because you didn't play the right move. With bayonetta, if she wins the neutral, you're getting hit over, and over, and over. Yes I'm aware of the ridiculous SDI you can use to (maybe) escape her combos. If you ask me it's bull**** that one character warrants the use of a specific technique. I also think the bat within mechanic is ridiculously underlooked and way too good of an option (frame 1 airdodge) but maybe there's a good point against that I haven't been exposed to.
I saw it said a while ago that Bayonetta isn't as high risk/high reward as she is in her home game.

She is both faster and has quicker attack start-ups in Smash than in Bayonetta (the game). Obviously, slowing her down would make her much more accurate and much more balanced with the rest of the gang.
Okay so it didn't quote your entire post for some reason
Did you have part of their post highlighted when you hit "Quote"/"Reply"? That cuts off the unhighlighted parts of their post.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom