Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Bowserlick]

Just like with Ridley, I am accepting that Simon Belmont is the game regardless if he turns out not to be.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I'm just trying to picture how any credible source about E3 reveals would know about Ridley or Ice Climbers both, but not Snake or Pichu or Young Link. You know one of the more unlikely returning veterans.

Not even Daisy.

I understand they all were most likely separate videos, but it just doesn't sit right with me for whatever reason that he didn't at least get something like Daisy or even the term ''Echo Fighter" right.

You know something he couldn't have just MADE up. Something that would have been a lot bolder than a massive fan want like Ridley or you know the Ice Climbers who were the most likely vets to return anyways.

 

[Hinata]

I'd be happy to be wrong if it turns out Simon is actually in the game. A whip user sounds like a lot of fun for a game like Smash.

But as it stands now, I am completely convinced that Vergeben's "sources" are full of it. He gets **** wrong all the time and backpedals to cover his tracks with new information to try to hold onto his credibility, he "leaks" things people already know, and even if he gets things like DBFZ DLC right, that doesn't mean he has a source within Nintendo.

Until he gets something Nintendo-related right that isn't either obvious or "leaked" by dozens of other people, I'm not trusting him on Smash information.

 

[Arcanir]

Please. I bet you if you go back on 4chan and look at some Smash Switch leaks from the moment the game was announced in March to E3, you'll find a whole bunch of people "leaking" Ridley. Are all those people as credible as Vergeben now because they just so happened to mention Ridley?

Vergeben got some things right on non-Nintendo games. Cool. But I guarantee you that when it comes to Smash Bros, he has no idea what he's talking about.

Saying 'Ridley is always leaked' to discredit a Smash Ultimate leak is revisionist history. Most leaks before Vergeban and ResetERA came out did not include him and most fans wrote him off as pretty much impossible. Even going to the Ridley thread there wasn't much optimism for his chances, so your argument of leaks catering to 'blind Ridley fans' is complete crap.

Really, say what you will about Vergeban's credibility (I know I have a few things to say), but the Ridley thing was not a 'likely' choice for leakers or fans alike. That's probably why Sakurai went with Ridley for E3, he was not only very popular, but very unexpected due to what he said on the character before.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Just like with Ridley, I am accepting that Simon Belmont is the game regardless if he turns out not to be.

How to disappoint yourself harder than you could disappoint your parents 101

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I’ll never forget that there were people who both told me that Little Mac wouldn’t be added because he only punches/is too boring, only to turn around and say he was obvious all along.

Reminds me of the infamous argument about some characters being "too punchy" for Marvel Vs. Capcom 3, yet got in anyway. The lesson here being, never underestimate anyone.

 

[AlphaSSB]

It's a combination of the tower defense and action game genres.

Basically, you gotta stop the grocks from getting to town, so during the day, you run around, collect resources, set up turrets and prepare for the invasion at night. Then, you run around and deal with any grocks that sneak by your turrets with your claws, rolling, grinding and digging abilities.

In The Last Ranger, Dillon gets an extra ally to control, meaning you have more resources to fight against grocks.

I like it because it can get hectic but unlike a lot of tower defense games, you can patch any holes you see in your defenses and be the hero that prevents everything from falling apart.

A mix between Tower Defense and Action. Huh.

Normally not too big a fan of Tower Defense games, but the way you described it seems interesting. The combat shown in the video looks alright, too. Definitely some Smash moveset potential there.

Appreciate the response, man. This game actually looks decent. May pick it up if I see it for a good price.

 

[Bowserlick]

How to disappoint yourself harder than you could disappoint your parents 101

This does not seem like a real college course.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

>Vergeben leak pops up, people say it's not real. Includes Ice Climbers, but also unsafe picks like Ridley and Snake
> E3 rolls around. We get everybody back including Snake (which almost nobody was willing to bet on) and freaking Ridley who most people also doubted
> Vergeben has leaked some things accurately before, but has also not leaked things that were accurate

> Smashboards: "I know next to nothing about his informants, but by my lack of knowledge, I'm definitely going to say it's fake. He just got lucky guys...r-right?!"

Jeez, it's like everybody puts their first-born on the line when discussing Smash. At this point, his Smash information has been on point. Why can't it just be a "we'll wait and see" type of thing? Why do some people have to immediately take sides and think the worst of people? Sheesh. This happens every single time there's a leak. People make their hot takes when most of the time, this fanbase has no idea what they're talking about.

It's like there's something on the line with this game, and based on a lack of information people try to pass off this idea that "I KNOW THE TRUTH". Vergeben is a person too. People come to him with information, and no, it's not always correct. But the first part of this Smash leak was.

Of course, it COULD also be that some people don't want Simon because they're afraid he's going to take one of the roster spots from their precious "rep" from their most wanted.

Basically:
1) During the Wii U era, everybody expected Mewtwo or Zoroark for base roster. That didn't happen. Now everybody thinks a 7th Gen is a "guarantee".
2) Everybody thought Snake was dead in the water and never coming back to Smash
3) Everybody (including myself) thought Daisy would never be playable in Smash because she didn't reach a fan made "standard"
4) A majority of the fanbase gave up on Ridley and thought he'd never happen.

We. Are. Wrong. All. The. Time.

If you want to go all cavalier on it and call Vergeben whatever name you want, go ahead. But you're going to look like the asshole if Simon is in the game. I, personally, think Simon is in this game. It's not because I want him. It's because the leak itself has credibility.

Sure, it wasn't 100% in terms of ALL character revealed at E3. But the leak never said anything about anyone outside of those 3 being at E3. Simon wasn't even leaked for E3.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I mean Ridley is pretty wild, but it's not something that a whole lot of other leakers also say.

Same with Ice Climbers.

The wildest hardest to predict stuff about E3? Verge didn't even get right.

All the veterans returning.

Echo fighters.

The title of the game.

Like harping on him getting ONE character right and praising him as the law of the land when it comes to leaks, just seems odd.

 

[?????????????]

I'm surprised just having both Ridley AND Snake isn't enough to say it isn't a coincidence. I got SO many nasty comments about what an idiot I was for thinking/wanting Snake back.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

A mix between Tower Defense and Action. Huh.

Normally not too big a fan of Tower Defense games, but the way you described it seems interesting. The combat shown in the video looks alright, too. Definitely some Smash moveset potential there.

Appreciate the response, man. This game actually looks decent. May pick it up if I see it for a good price.

It's digital only but it's pretty cheap.

I think it was less than 20 bucks so it's worth your money.

 

[Hinata]

Here's my concise opinion on the matter for all y'all to put in your signatures so you can come laugh in my face when I'm wrong. And if that moment comes, I will gladly take all the mockery you so desire.

While I would love to see Simon Belmont make it into this new Smash Bros, I firmly believe he is not actually going to make it.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I mean Ridley is pretty wild, but it's not something that a whole lot of other leakers also say.

Same with Ice Climbers.

The wildest hardest to predict stuff about E3? Verge didn't even get right.

All the veterans returning.

Echo fighters.

The title of the game.

Like harping on him getting ONE character right and praising him as the law of the land when it comes to leaks, just seems odd.

There's evidence to actually back up why this could have happened this way. First, very few leaks that end up being true have all the information. Back in the Brawl days, there were two different leaks that, when put together, pieced the final roster together. Neither leaker had the full picture.

Not to mention, if this leaker IS legitimate (as in the person who gave Vergeben the information), he may have only seen certain things. There's an article somewhere (I read it earlier today, but forget where) that stated that very few people at Nintendo even knew the plan to bring back everybody. With that in mind, it makes complete sense for this person to not know everything.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

During the Wii U era, everybody expected Mewtwo or Zoroark for base roster. That didn't happen. Now everybody thinks a 7th Gen is a "guarantee".

That is a terrible analogy. If anything, a Gen 7 Pokemon is more comparable to the idea of getting an Awakening character for Smash.

 

[?????????????]

As far as Pokemon goes, I have no idea what to expect now. I could see ANYTHING happening. A 7th gen Pokemon, a long-time fan-favorite, nothing at all, an eventual 8th gen DLC character...

 

[Mc.Rad]

How many people here think that there will be fewer leaks popping up after that new Sakurai Interview that went into how far he went to avoid the game being leaked?

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

That is a terrible analogy. If anything, a Gen 7 Pokemon is more comparable to the idea of getting an Awakening character for Smash.

Nah, Zoroark and Mewtwo were pretty widley considered shoe-in characters for Wii U. It's pretty much the same thing as the way people view Gen 7 now. I don't see how it's "terrible" besides hyperbole.

Do I think we're getting a Gen 7 Pokemon? It entirely depends on the vision for this game. If we only get Ridley, Inklings, and Daisy (as some people are predicting), I think we'll see something different in the form of a DLC Pokemon character. We got several things nobody expected roughly a month ago, yet everybody is considering the same things as we always did.

In terms of Fire Emblem, who did everyone think was getting in through FE: A? It definitely wasn't Robin. Plenty of people, myself included, got that wrong.

It still supports the larger point that the speculation community has a tendency to get more things wrong than correct as a whole.

 

[Hinata]

As far as Pokemon goes, I have no idea what to expect now. I could see ANYTHING happening. A 7th gen Pokemon, a long-time fan-favorite, nothing at all, an eventual 8th gen DLC character...

No Pokemon newcomer at all would be a first for Smash Bros.

I would say that there's no way they'd break the trend of introducing a new Pokemon character every game, but Smash 4 also broke trends by being the first game in the series to not have a Zelda or Star Fox newcomer.

 

[Icedragonadam]

It's guaranteed that some newcomers are going to be characters that weren't in any 4chan leaks. I mean look at past speculation.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

The thing is that's all good and I know that Scoliosis Jones , but at the end of the day.

To take Verge at his word just because of Ridley alone is pretty crazy.

It's not even something you can't just make up.

The prior leaks all had something on them that were super crazy, super wild or would immediately make you false.

Ridley can be seen as that, but that's only if you take Sakurai at face value on everything he says. He always backtracks on words he says from game to game. Villager, now Ridley himself, etc, etc, there are many examples.

Gematsu had Wii Fit Trainer, he used correct terminology that made him look wild and crazy, etc, etc.

Almost every real leak has had something about it that was just only could have come from inside information.

Nothing about what Verge has gotten right about Smash says that about him.

If he had said echo fighter, or Pichu is returning, then yeah, taking him for his word wouldn't be as wild.

But he really didn't get much right that he couldn't have just dreamed up in his head.

 

[Mc.Rad]

It's guaranteed that some newcomers are going to be characters that weren't in any 4chan leaks. I mean look at past speculation.

(Possible) RIP Ashley, Belmont, Mimikyu, Elma, Rex and Pyra, Geno, Choir Kids, and Karate Man

 

[AlphaSSB]

It's digital only but it's pretty cheap.

I think it was less than 20 bucks so it's worth your money.

Ah. Thought it may have been digital only, but wasn't sure.

Still though. Around 20$ seems like a fair price for it. May have to check it out.

 

[?????????????]

If he had said echo fighter, or Pichu is returning, then yeah, taking him for his word wouldn't be as wild.

But he really didn't get much right that he couldn't have just dreamed up in his head.

He said Snake.

 

[Mc.Rad]

I'm gonna be real... I wish we got a date for another Smash Bros like... reveal or something. I always find those to be much more hype building than suprise reveals and stuff...

plus you can also schedule days around them lol

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

The thing is that's all good and I know that Scoliosis Jones , but at the end of the day.

To take Verge at his word just because of Ridley alone is pretty crazy.

It's not even something you can't just make up.

The prior leaks all had something on them that were super crazy, super wild or would immediately make you false.

Ridley can be seen as that, but that's only if you take Sakurai at face value on everything he says. He always backtracks on words he says from game to game. Villager, now Ridley himself, etc, etc, there are many examples.

Gematsu had Wii Fit Trainer, he used correct terminology that made him look wild and crazy, etc, etc.

Almost every real leak has had something about it that was just only could have come from inside information.

Nothing about what Verge has gotten right about Smash says that about him.

If he had said echo fighter, or Pichu is returning, then yeah, taking him for his word wouldn't be as wild.

But he really didn't get much right that he couldn't have just dreamed up in his head.

Oh yeah, definitely! Do I think it might be getting ahead of ourselves to completely buy in? Probably. I simply don't think that it's necessarily something to put against the credibility of the information though. Maybe it wasn't all that exciting, but maybe that's all his informant saw? There's definitely a plausible explanation for it.

Frankly, I won't be heartbroken if Simon doesn't get in mainly because I've never played Castlevania. I would probably prefer if he didn't because I've forced myself to play the games of each Smash character when possible. I already have an awful backlog, and if Simon gets in..oy.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

(Possible) RIP Ashley, Belmont, Mimikyu, Elma, Rex and Pyra, Geno, Choir Kids, and Karate Man

You forgot Bandana Dee ;-; and also K. Rool/Dixie. they got erased by the snap that erased half the roster several pages back and we’re getting Decidueye, Heihachi, Dark Samus, Shadow, Ribbon Girl and Isabelle instead

In all seriousness though, anything can happen. We can get a character that was leaked, a character that was never mentioned in any leaks, OR a character that was previously leaked could be deconfirmed or just never appear. In the end it’s all Sakurai’s decision and what he envisions (or doesn’t) with certain characters.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

How many people here think that there will be fewer leaks popping up after that new Sakurai Interview that went into how far he went to avoid the game being leaked?

I think so. They may stop popping up once people realise that the leakers are just pulling dates out of thin air and move on.

Edit: Oh, and since there will most likely be cuts in the next game (if there is one later on), I can see some of the more similar characters get cut out (probably Lucina, Dark Pit and Pichu, for instance).

 

[Tree Gelbman]

He said Snake.

That's something a lot of leakers before Verge dreamed up in their head too.

It's unlikely, but not as unlikely as saying ''There's going to be a return for Pichu." or ''There's going to be a return for Young Link."

You can still make up saying Snake is returning.

He didn't get anything particularly wild right. Like he got unlikely stuff at face value right, but he didn't get crazy **** right like the cut Melee veterans returning.

I just can't buy him on Ridley and Snake a lone. Lots of people said those two before him. Because they are attention grabbers for fake leakers. They just make people want to invest in your leak.

Where as stuff like saying correct terminology, weird returns like Dr. Mario was for Wii U/3DS, weird WTF newcomers like R.O.B., etc these are the things that when proven right, make some sound logic in a leaker.

This is why for months before the Robin/Lucina reveal for Wii U/3DS so many people thought we knew the complete roster, because everyone was set on Chrom, because he had gotten so much right and it was all unpredictable stuff.

 

[?????????????]

I just can't buy him on Ridley and Snake a lone.

But they AREN'T alone.

They're TOGETHER.

One leaker claimed TWO characters, both seen as impossibilities by a large mass of people, would be revealed. And they were.


I'm not trying to say that Vergeben is going to be right about everything, but I AM trying to say that Vergeben obviously does have SOME insider information from at least one of his sources, ESPECIALLY with how adamant he was about Ridley. Fully, 100%, no doubt about Ridley.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Nah, Zoroark and Mewtwo were pretty widley considered shoe-in characters for Wii U. It's pretty much the same thing as the way people view Gen 7 now. I don't see how it's "terrible" besides hyperbole that you typically approach my posts with.

Because it's the epitome of false comparison, especially since Gen 5 wasn't the upcoming Gen at the time the Smash 4 roster was being conceptualized and the Pokemon Company wanted a Pokemon from X and Y as a newcomer, since they gave Sakurai illustrations of Greninja to work with and Sakurai confirmed they have a say in Pokemon newcomers. A Gen 7 Pokemon is in the exact same situation as Gen 6 newcomer Pokemon was back then, since the only reason we got a Pokemon newcomer from the latest Gen in Smash 4 was for the sake of representing the newest generation (as an X and Y newcomer was specifically reserved a slot).

But hey, I guess all I do is get hyperbolic. It's not as if this argument isn't weak at all.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Nah he uses the spirit bomb in base form, but he can only power it up in his other forms.

That’s why I put in the “might not really count” and somewhat just in case it really wouldn’t count for Goku

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Ok, so I wanna think of another game.

Sell me on some potential newcomers I’ll name, in fifty words or less. What makes them unique? What do they represent? What’s their move set potential? Any other perks?

I’ll start with these three potential newcomers:

- Ashley
- Bandana Dee (I already support him, but I’m listing him here anyway)
- Decidueye

Go!

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Damn double post. Sorry.

 

[Next Door Dog]

What I don't really get is why people are basing Simon's chances on the leaks and not just on his chances in general. The fact that Snake is back and Bomberman is an AT in the game are much more telling than any leak imo. And even if a leak is wrong, it's not like it deconfirms him.

I'm pretty skeptical for most characters getting in the game, since at this point any character they add could just as likely be some AT or otherwise not have a spot set in stone. With that being said, Simon is honestly one of the characters I'm most confident about being in the game, even more than most 1st party characters (though I'd be really surprised if there wasn't a new DK character). Castlevania is one of the few series I feel that is missing in the Smash, it's like not having Mega Man in the game. I think he'd be the only character I'd actually be disappointed if he didn't make it in, but like I said, nobody is really guaranteed.

Keep in mind I don't really put much stock in any of the leaks and I still think he's very likely. It makes me sad that there has to be a leak going around for there to be any traction of discussion about him being in the game.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

But they AREN'T alone.

They're TOGETHER.

One leaker claimed TWO characters, both seen as impossibilities by a large mass of people, would be revealed. And they were.


I'm not trying to say that Vergeben is going to be right about everything, but I AM trying to say that Vergeben obviously does have SOME insider information from at least one of his sources, ESPECIALLY with how adamant he was about Ridley. Fully, 100%, no doubt about Ridley.

If you take Verge at his word as having information. Then you gotta go back and take other leaks that had both of them on it at their weird too.

Because that's your logic. Because verge was not the first to say both of them were in before their reveal.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Because it's the epitome of false comparison, especially since Gen 5 wasn't the upcoming Gen at the time the Smash 4 roster was being conceptualized and the Pokemon Company wanted a Pokemon from X and Y as a newcomer, since they gave Sakurai illustrations of Greninja to work with and Sakurai confirmed they have a say in Pokemon newcomers. A Gen 7 Pokemon is in the exact same situation as Gen 6 newcomer Pokemon was back then, since the only reason we got a Pokemon newcomer from the latest Gen in Smash 4 was for the sake of representing the newest generation (as an X and Y newcomer was specifically reserved a slot).

But hey, I guess all I do is get hyperbolic. It's not as if this argument isn't weak at all.

I never said it was different at all. My point was that, first, everybody is assuming the same things based on the same information. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but it's taken as if it's "confirmed" whereas nothing is confirmed to happen the way we think it will. The Smash fanbase does it all the time.

I was told numerous times I was wrong, and didn't know what I was talking about when I said I didn't think there were going to be cuts. Guess what happened, much to the surprise of the Smash fanbase?

I do personally think we're going to get a Gen VII Pokemon, because I don't really buy into the idea that we'd only get 3 new characters (even though I could accept it). However, I think it's also entirely plausible that it may not be any of the options the fanbase considers likely at the moment.

No matter what, there aren't any guarantees. To say differently is to ignore precedent. We've been bamboozled before and it can most certainly happen again.

It's not that you're always hyperbolic. It's that it seems like every single time you quote me, you have snark or use particular wording to counter my points. It really doesn't bother me, and I'm not sure if you simply disagree with me all the time. If you don't agree, that's fine! But I don't feel the snark or harsh criticism is always necessary. It's a video game we're talking about my dude.

 

[?????????????]

Ok, so I wanna think of another game.

Sell me on some potential newcomers I’ll name, in fifty words or less. What makes them unique? What do they represent? What’s their move set potential? Any other perks?

I’ll start with these three potential newcomers:

- Ashley
- Bandana Dee (I already support him, but I’m listing him here anyway)
- Decidueye

Go!

Ashley has been a stand-out secondary character of the Wario series, a franchise known for many colorful characters. She has the largest fanbase by far of any of the WarioWare characters, and her abilities utilize magic; something we do not have an over-abundance of in Smash Bros. She is also accompanied by Red, an imp that can shapeshift into various objects Ashely can use, making for a high-potential versatile moveset.

Bandana Dee has become the staple fourth main Kirby character, regularly appearing alongside Kirby in many adventures since Kirby's Return to Dreamland. In the same way Meta Knight utilizes the sword and King Dedede utilizes the hammer, Bandana Dee comes with a spear-based moveset; something we haven't seen at all in Smash Bros. yet!

Decidueye is a stand-out Pokemon. Being a starter is one thing, but from early on, Decidueye was singled out by becoming the first seventh generation Pokemon to become playable in Pokken Tournament, and additionally, it's base form, Rowlett, is a VERY popular Pokemon. Decidueye's fighting style is archery based, which is rare in Smash Bros., and the icing on the cake is his ghost typing, which gives him access to very fun Pokemon moves.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I feel like there's overlap. I think it's probably a combination. Many expect it, but some also feel like some of the best character additions are the "retro" characters or even the characters we don't really expect. Personally, I'm fine with any character as I don't dislike any character. I do think Sakurai will just do what he usually does though and pick popular and expected characters while also just picking ones that he personally wants in himself.

I would care. Personally, I think retros are one of the best kinds of newcomers. In terms of speculation, it personally excites me on which classic Nintendo game protagonist from the 80s and 90s will Sakurai bring back to attention via playable character. Retro newcomers like Lip, Prince Sable, and Excitebiker all bring a distinct flavor of personality, characterization, and moveset potential that are not present in Ultimate's current cast of characters. Retros have so much to pull from that I find it hard to believe Sakurai will stop the retro 'tradition', in the same way I find it hard to believe that no Pokemon newcomer will be added in this game. Why stop digging the goldmine of unique retro candidates now?

Retros are just like any other characters. I'm no longer taking it as a given that we'll get a retro or Pokémon simply because we always do - that seems just as fan-rule-y as "We can't get two thrid parties from the same company."

I don't understand why most fan rosters add, e.g. a retro and a Pokémon, with no basis beyond "well we need one duh..." Maybe Sakurai will break his own rules for this game. I don't know. I'm not going to bank on one being there or not being there anymore.

But I will say that I don't like retros because 'lol they're old!' G&W is kind of meh to me, but deserves to be in in a way Pac-Man is - historical, but I couldn't care less. ROB gets very little playtime from me. DHD, on the other hand, was loads of fun to play. It still all goes back to how the character feels more than the circumstances of their inclusion.

Nah we want a retro rep because we want to know if Sakurai is going to do a cool rep like Pit or a dumb rep like Duck Hunt Dog again...

Excuse me, I believe you mixed up the terms 'cool' and 'dumb.'

---

And back to Simon and Vergeben - Yes, he's been right so far, but even Gematsu didn't have all of the answers, so I will believe Simon's in when I see it. Until then, I'll take it as just rumors.

But I've still got this mental image of Dovahkiin and Simon adventuring together and it makes me happy.

 

[Hinata]

What I don't really get is why people are basing Simon's chances on the leaks and not just on his chances in general. The fact that Snake is back and Bomberman is an AT in the game are much more telling than any leak imo. And even if a leak is wrong, it's not like it deconfirms him.

I'm pretty skeptical for most characters getting in the game, since at this point any character they add could just as likely be some AT or otherwise not have a spot set in stone. With that being said, Simon is honestly one of the characters I'm most confident about being in the game, even more than most 1st party characters (though I'd be really surprised if there wasn't a new DK character). Castlevania is one of the few series I feel that is missing in the Smash, it's like not having Mega Man in the game. I think he'd be the only character I'd actually be disappointed if he didn't make it in, but like I said, nobody is really guaranteed.

Keep in mind I don't really put much stock in any of the leaks and I still think he's very likely. It makes me sad that there has to be a leak going around for there to be any traction of discussion about him being in the game.

You know, that's a fair point. Simon does have some good stuff going for him. I was so focused on Vergeben, I didn't think about all the other evidence in Simon's favor.