Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

This honestly isn't too big of a deal. There are plenty of opportunities in Smash 4 where I can spend a decent amount of time charging as Cloud before someone gets to me, and it's pretty easy to dodge out of it before an attack is landed. Hell, most people wouldn't even think about using ranged attacks to stop this in the future, because the possibility of them landing a solid smash attack is just too enticing.

Unless there's some other big Cloud changes that I'm not aware of, he's still going to be a relatively top-tier character for aware players.

Considering that Cloud can no longer hold Limit Break for an infinite time period, that could end up being bad for his overall recovery if he loses Limit Break at the wrong time.

Of course, more balancing measures will likely be needed if the nerfs to Limit Charge's mechanics aren't enough.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I just realized why I have an irrational hatred against Dr. Mario not being an echo or even a character at all.

Because we actually have Mario in different costumes, specifically the Builder outfit, still as Mario. It's not like there's a third character, Builder Mario. Meh I really wish Dr. Mario was just a costume in SSB4.

I never understood Doc's inclusion in melee, I know they needed to pad the roster and I know doctor mario sold well but...it's still mario. They could've kept him, young link and even pichu tbh and instead worked on making falco, roy and ganondorf more unique imo

 

[P.Kat]

Greninja's nerfs are really overstated, he only ever got nerfed in one patch (1.0.4), where the nerfs were mostly to toning down a few broken moves and other absurd aspects (e.g. lagless u-smash that hit above and to the sides, Hydro Pump that was strong enough to make a Dedede doing Dedede Jump die off the top, a standing hurtbox so short that Fox's lasers wouldn't hit him) and fixing glitches (e.g. cancelling landing lag with Shadow Sneak). Greninja's drop in tier perception had a lot more to do with nearly all his pre-1.0.4 players dropping him in the typical overreaction that comes to nerfs. After that he just got a mostly impractical glitch removed in the 3DS-only 1.0.5 (the running Shadow Sneak glitch, which made people freakout that they were "nerfing Greninja again" and led to the birth of that meme), and then only ever got a considerable amount of buffs in the patches afterward despite never being considered worse than mid tier.

Well I didn't know all of that, so it was overreaction to the nerfs that led players to needlessly dropping Greninja, to one of the most common memes ever used in Smash 4(or Smash in general). Yeah in hindsight I may have freak out to soon.

This'll do nothing for Cloud's viability.
He's still fast.
Still has giant disjoints.
Still has a manual way to charge his meter.

The fact that he doesn't get rewarded for getting hit anymore is something that should've been in since the beginning.

Yeah I'd still use him definitely regardless of tier list, and nerfs, plus what you say is true not much s changed, and no rewards for getting hit would of made him more tolerable in Smash 4.

Sheik got nerved pretty hard in Smash 4, and I remember a quite a few people dropping her because of that, despite the fact she's still top tier, but no matter what, I still stuck with her. She's been my favorite since Melee, before I even knew what tier lists was, I just liked how ninja-esque she was, that's why she's my favorite.

Anyway, long rambling short, I shouldn't be worry about nerfs too much at this point for any character.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Anyone wanna think of any text games to play (what (detail) would you want for (X)) etc? That or we wait for our boi DaybreakHorizon for the Leaks of the Day

I know it’s a few pages back, but you know those posters by certain artists they did for Smash 4 newcomers? I was thinking of one or two in certain artists’ styles but I’ll write them up later.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I really don’t get how Rodin as a Bayonetta Echo would work...

They don’t even have similar body structures and their abilities are drastically different, it makes no sense.

Why add Rodin when Bayonetta has a canon clone (gameplay wise at least) in jeanne? Just make witch time have a smaller window to land and increase the strength of her smash attacks and boom, you got an echo. You have no idea how much I want "you mother ******" as a taunt, I wish lol

 

[Guh-Huzzah!]

I really don’t get how Rodin as a Bayonetta Echo would work...

They don’t even have similar body structures and their abilities are drastically different, it makes no sense.

Speaking about Rodin, Was i the only one confused for a bit when they announced him?

 

[Murlough]

That doesn't make sense seeing as we have confirmation that daisy side b sends at a downward angle, and that dark pit retains his side b angle??

I'm not referring to state changes as "moves faster/is heavier". I guess the better term is move properties.

Where was this confirmation? I watched the trailer and if you watch the smoke trail it doesn't send the character down. Its just the camera angle that makes it seem that way unless you actually have something else.

 

[IsmaR]

You guys are taking "Echo Fighters" way too seriously.

All the title denotes is how much time was spent on them compared to their original counterparts (i.e. "last minute costume/clone").

Back in Melee, it WAS the case that clones were last minute additions to flesh out the roster, with only slightly modifications to move prpperties/physics, and the occasional unique move (Ganon's forward air).

Obviously if they put effort into bringing the characters back after them being absent from a game or two (Doc, Roy, Pichu, Young Link and so on) then they took effort since they had to be reworked from scratch rather than just straight ported.

Labels aside, the characters are different now, and that's what matters. The new echo fighters are deemed similar enough to their counterparts to get a fancy title rather than just be a costume.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I never understood Doc's inclusion in melee, I know they needed to pad the roster and I know doctor mario sold well but...it's still mario. They could've kept him, young link and even pichu tbh and instead worked on making falco, roy and ganondorf more unique imo

Clone characters take a lot less time than unique characters and the game was rushed, Sakurai chose to focus on clones to pad the roster for a larger roster

 

[PrinceGal3n]

So, with San Diego Comic Con this coming weekend, and the fact that Ultimate will be playable there, do y'all think we could get another character reveal then?

 

[Makai Wars]

It's like screaming into a gorge and hearing your Echo.

This got such a laugh out of me that I drew this

Spoiler: hearing your Echo

 

[GunBlaze]

I never understood Doc's inclusion in melee, I know they needed to pad the roster and I know doctor mario sold well but...it's still mario. They could've kept him, young link and even pichu tbh and instead worked on making falco, roy and ganondorf more unique imo

“If I could add one or two more characters, then [Wario] could have gotten in. Of all the characters I discarded, [he’s] ranked near the top.

However, even if I didn’t work on several clone characters he wouldn’t have gotten in.

Even if I deleted characters from before (Jigglypuff, Luigi) he wouldn’t have gotten in.

You might think it’s impossible that even if we delete one character in development that it couldn’t be replaced with another character….

I would have needed to get rid of both Marth and Roy or Mewtwo in order for Wario to get in"

https://sourcegaming.info/2015/08/01/smash-clones/

 

[Rie Sonomura]

So, with San Diego Comic Con this coming weekend, and the fact that Ultimate will be playable there, do y'all think we could get another character reveal then?

There have been rumors of a presentation there, but it’s dated for Sunday, which doesn’t make sense as no directs or reveals happen on weekends. If anything it *could* be the 19th or 20th if we’re lucky.

 

[Mutsukki]

So, with San Diego Comic Con this coming weekend, and the fact that Ultimate will be playable there, do y'all think we could get another character reveal then?

Nintendo historically doesn't announce stuff at SDCC, they didn't even when Smash 4 was on the horizon, so I wouldn't hold my breath

 

[Guh-Huzzah!]

You guys are taking "Echo Fighters" way too seriously.

All the title denotes is how much time was spent on them compared to their original counterparts (i.e. "last minute costume/clone").

Amen. It's just a fancy little title for characters that are simmiliar too another, and these are always added last minute anyways.
Except Daisy, who was used as an example of an echo.

 

[Idon]

Okay, so according to precedence, what's the most likely time we will get a Smash presentation?

Because so far, it's just been a constant reminder that Nintendo doesn't "do" this whole event thing.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Question: Assuming Nintendo's going to announce something at SDCC, WHEN would they do it? You gotta remember, Smash is something nerds love and Nintendo obviously wants nerds to look at their stuff, but it can't be during a panel of someone at SDCC because the nerds will be paying attention to something else, unless Nintendo actually has a panel reserved to announce stuff like at E3, they won't risk it

 

[SlickWylde]

Oh boy, just saw a promotional thing for that new Kirby game. Can't wait for all the Daroach fans arguing that he's an amazing, important character who "deserves" a slot in Smash. /s - I bet you he's gonna be the next "one" that everyone argues about. (Seriously)

 

[Noipoi]

I'm dying waiting for the update so here's another game while we pray for the new track to tide us over for the week.

Pick your favorite newcomers you want based on their color (main or secondary color)! My list:
Red - Ashley / Celica
Blue - Bandana Dee
Green - Linkle
Yellow - Zeraora / Mythra
Purple - Hilda (LBW)
Orange - Goku Infernape
White - Amaterasu / 2B
Black - Shadow
Brown - Sora Just Monika
Pink - Yarn Kirby / Lip

Red - Ashley
Blue - Bandanna Dee
Green - K Rool
Green again - Gardevoir
Yellow - Mimikyu
Purple - Rayman
Orange - Crash
White - Amaterasu
Black - Monokuma
Brown - Geno
Pink - Dixie

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Question: Assuming Nintendo's going to announce something at SDCC, WHEN would they do it? You gotta remember, Smash is something nerds love and Nintendo obviously wants nerds to look at their stuff, but it can't be during a panel of someone at SDCC because the nerds will be paying attention to something else, unless Nintendo actually has a panel reserved to announce stuff like at E3, they won't risk it

Not on Saturday or Sunday, that’s for certain.

As for the time slot, I’d imagine late afternoon/early evening. I don’t know from what hour to what hour the con floor is open each day so

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

The new Smash kirby rep has been right in front of us the whole time

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Oh boy, just saw a promotional thing for that new Kirby game. Can't wait for all the Daroach fans arguing that he's an amazing, important character who "deserves" a slot in Smash. /s - I bet you he's gonna be the next "one" that everyone argues about. (Seriously)

ok but Daroach would be cool and you know it

 

[Guh-Huzzah!]

Oh boy, just saw a promotional thing for that new Kirby game. Can't wait for all the Daroach fans arguing that he's an amazing, important character who "deserves" a slot in Smash. /s - I bet you he's gonna be the next "one" that everyone argues about. (Seriously)

If they say DAROACH is the next kirby rep. I'll officially be dead inside. He's just like Marx. Just another villain. and heck, at least Marx is popular. He'd be cool. but i highly doubt he'll be coming.

 

[ColietheGoalie]

Not that people should just jump on bandwagons as soon as a character comes out in something like Star Allies, but I feel for a lot of people it's just that they're reminded "Oh yeah! He WAS a cool character", and it renews interest.

Plus, let's face it, villains are usually more interesting characters than the heroes. One of the reasons I'd love more in Smash.
ex. Insane jester that can rend space itself > cute guy with a spear

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Oh boy, just saw a promotional thing for that new Kirby game. Can't wait for all the Daroach fans arguing that he's an amazing, important character who "deserves" a slot in Smash. /s - I bet you he's gonna be the next "one" that everyone argues about. (Seriously)

I can at least understand those arguments in relation to Marx, they're not enough for him to be prioritized over Bandana Dee imo, but he'd still be a solid addition. Daroach though, eh... Squeak Squad was fine and all, but not in any way a classic like Super Star was, and although the Squeaks were obviously the center of attention in the game Daroach just didn't leave much of an impact, not on me at least. There are many Kirby characters I'd take over him, he's neither a classic, recent or reoccuring character for the series, just this awkward in betweener.

None of it matters though, by all accounts Star Allies happened too late for Ultimate, and even in the very unlikely scenario that it didn't then its DLC most certainly did.

 

[Zeox]

If they say DAROACH is the next kirby rep. I'll officially be dead inside. He's just like Marx. Just another villain. and heck, at least Marx is popular. He'd be cool. but i highly doubt he'll be coming.

Just another villain? Daroach wasn't even a bad dude, he was just a thief.
Marx on the other hand, that really was a villain.

 

[JayJay55]

If they say DAROACH is the next kirby rep. I'll officially be dead inside. He's just like Marx. Just another villain. and heck, at least Marx is popular. He'd be cool. but i highly doubt he'll be coming.

Daroach and the squeaks aren’t necessarily “bad”. They’re treasure hunting thieves, by the end of the game he gives Kirby his cake back. Then, he and his squad later reappears in Mass Attack as a little side thing. After whatever it was they wanted you to do in Mass Attack they fly off in their air craft never to be seen later on in the game.

I thought Hal Laboratories said they’d make a game staring the squeaks. It never happened so far and I still wait eagerly as I really enjoyed Squeak Squad. I’d like to see them again.

 

[Mutsukki]

Okay, so according to precedence, what's the most likely time we will get a Smash presentation?

Because so far, it's just been a constant reminder that Nintendo doesn't "do" this whole event thing.

Directs and E3. That's it as far as I remember. VGA would be a good contender... if Smash wasn't set to release before that event lol.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Daroach and the squeaks aren’t necessarily “bad”. They’re treasure hunting thieves, by the end of the game he gives Kirby his cake back. Then, he and his squad later reappears in Mass Attack as a little side thing.

That wasn't actually the same cake

The cake that was stolen, was stolen by Dedede (Or more specifically by a waddle dee. Either because Dedede wanted the cake, or because he wanted to set up Doroach

 

[BluePikmin11]

As a speculator, sometimes I think about how I could have predicted every veteran in Smash history returning. I felt very confident that everyone from Smash 4 was returning prior to the E3 reveal due to my thought on Smash Switch likely being taking some assets from the previous game, but I did not expect the roster to take a step further. I always had a suspicion that Sakurai was making this game a dream roster of some kind, when Vergeben first brought up the rumored, but seen as impossible characters like Simon Belmont and Ridley. Those choices raised a strong eyebrow for me, that I was willing to predict newcomers like Geno. In hindsight, it made sense that this game would bring back every veteran, thinking about how Sakurai critically thinks about the fans of each cut fighter. That would have transitioned to a thought to which Sakurai would go ambitious to bring back everyone in Smash history for Ultimate.

The thought of predicting that could have been formed had I done more research and critical thinking, but I never really took the thought seriously, especially when back I brought up the idea of Pokémon’s Trainer returning with transformation intact, it was a one-sided discussion that never really got the chance to progress, even after analyzing that there was a real possibility of it happening. Sakurai just seems to be one step ahead of me when it comes to thinking of roster choices that would flip expectations of the community. I am kind of glad for that, because the direction made speculation even more exciting for me, so much so that it pumped me up to do a second revision of my newcomer predictions. Whatever lies ahead of Sakurai, I am ready for the reveals, eager to see if my predictions are right.

 

[JayJay55]

That wasn't actually the same cake

The cake that was stolen, was stolen by Dedede (Or more specifically by a waddle dee. Either because Dedede wanted the cake, or because he wanted to set up Doroach

But Daroach alludes to the cake theft in Mass Attack iirc.

 

[Mutsukki]

That wasn't actually the same cake

The cake that was stolen, was stolen by Dedede (Or more specifically by a waddle dee. Either because Dedede wanted the cake, or because he wanted to set up Doroach

I'm pretty sure that graphic that looks like a Waddle Dee isn't really one. It's pretty clear it was Daroach's gang that stole the cake.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

But Daroach alludes to the cake theft in Mass Attack iirc.

If you slow down the footage the "Thief" is a waddle dee

 

[92MilesPrower]

Tomorrow's preview:

Colonel: Be aware of everything going on in this battle, Snake, he's for certain your deadliest opponent here in Smash, and we can't afford to lose you.

Next up:

 

[Zerp]

Oh boy, just saw a promotional thing for that new Kirby game. Can't wait for all the Daroach fans arguing that he's an amazing, important character who "deserves" a slot in Smash. /s - I bet you he's gonna be the next "one" that everyone argues about. (Seriously)

I doubt we'll see people claiming he's deserving among Kirby characters, Daroach is literally one-upped by Dark Matter in his own game, I don't know how someone'd do the deserving argument and also manage to somehow ignore the recurring villain just taking over his role lol.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I guess. You can't really add new game modes via patches unless they are basic stuff. Or maybe you can, I'm not very good at this stuff.

They added tournament mode in Smash 4 and Street Fighter V added an entire story mode months after the game came out

I'll add to what Makai Wars said with the fact that Melee is 17 years old. At the time, Dr. Mario was way more relevant (Dr. Mario 64 had just came out, a great game btw) and there were no alternate costumes for anyone. He was back for the sake of being classic Mario and then a little bit more different. There's no real way to compare what happened in these games when they're apart by 13 years

The Doc came back because they realized nobody could heal the fighters other than him

 

[Bowserlick]

Possible Female Newcomers: Ashley, Elma, Mach Rider (portrayed as female before), Pokemon, Birdo, Dixie Kong, Impa, Isabelle

 

[osby]

They added tournament mode in Smash 4 and Street Fighter V added an entire story mode months after the game came out

The Doc came back because they realized nobody could heal the fighters other than him

Finally, someone appreciating the medical work done by good old Doc.

 

[Guh-Huzzah!]

Just another villain? Daroach wasn't even a bad dude, he was just a thief.
Marx on the other hand, that really was a villain.

Daroach and the squeaks aren’t necessarily “bad”. They’re treasure hunting thieves, by the end of the game he gives Kirby his cake back. Then, he and his squad later reappears in Mass Attack as a little side thing. After whatever it was they wanted you to do in Mass Attack they fly off in their air craft never to be seen later on in the game.

I thought Hal Laboratories said they’d make a game staring the squeaks. It never happened so far and I still wait eagerly as I really enjoyed Squeak Squad. I’d like to see them again.

Sorry. Havn't played the games yet. That's what i thought.
But doesn't he fight you? And doesn't being a thief kinda make him a villian?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The thing with Kirby is that people arwe already arguing it's fine with characters. After Bandana Dee, where do you really go? Everyone is either a species or a character who only appeared once or twice. Other than Galacta Knight, nobody else really stays relevant outside of the Dream Friends. Personally, I'd accept any extra Kirby characters after Bandana Dee unless they're just generic enemies without their own identity, Dark Matter being an exception to this