Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[osby]

I decided to extend on this idea. Came up with some... off-brand Smash Fighters... XD

Spoiler

Marrow
Asinine Ape
Lonk
Smoosh
Let's Do This!
Curbstomp
Todd
Sparklesqueak
Loogie
Famicom
Lieutenant Tiercel
Pudding Pop
[CENSORED]
Dairy
Hoser
Fire Divers
Shake
Griselda
Mr. Marrow
Sparky
Fal-kun
Merf
Lucy
Baby Lonk
Ganondork
Moo-who?
King
Ms. Play & See
Transcendental Warrior
Pot
Kettle
Naked Smoosh
Wallow
Snek
Bike
Baby Turtle, Cannabis & Saurtooth
Tiny Monkey
Lucky
Cronic
Kingsonnn Dededoo
Olly Murs
Ricola
Mr. Roboto
Tonne Lonk
Canine
Peasant
Hypergirl
Wiffed Sneaker
Rosie & Jim
Lol Mick
Croa-ga
Party? Nah...
Sock Man
:ultrobinBatman
Shork
Hoser Boy
Game Fowl Pair
Long
Claude
Maize
Muzzledagger
Squidspicion
Grisly

I like to think I came up with some gems here.

You would be right.

 

[papagenos]

This..is sort of off topic, but I wouldn't say a new dlc character would be enough to win E3. I mean the epic reveal of Smash Ultimate in all of its glory still left a lot of Nintendo fans salty because it was pretty much the only thing they showed.

Yes Smash is great and the majority of Nintendo fans love it but I don't think Nintendo can try to successfully make a big impression at E3 with Smash alone, especially if it's just a dlc character. Some people complaining about Nintendo's E3 are being annoying and entitled sure, but I think there are a lot of legitimate Nintendo fans who don't really enjoy Smash who are not looking forward to the rest of the year being only Smash and a Pokemon Yellow remake so far.

Anyway yeah kind of unrelated because I agree they should absolutely do dlc characters, they just can't make Smash the pivotal focus of next E3 again. Sorry totally unrelated and just a random rant from me XD
.

Yeah i mean i was sorta exaggerating or parroting what the "internet" says whenever theres a big smash character reveal (especially a character thats unexpected or third party like say sora or banjo kazooie), my point was simply that if Nintendo makes a single character for smash and reveals it at E3 the hype from that alone is often beyond most game reveals so it would be really foolish not to do it. gets the internet buzzing like crazy in favor of nintendo.

 

[viewtifulduck82]

Okay so question for you guys. Going by our current definition for an echo fighter, would you say melee falco/roy were echo fighters? I think they were the only ones that fit the bill.

 

[DJ3DS]

Personally, a lot more Smash 4 reveals appealed to me than Brawl newcomers.
Brawl: (mostly Ivysaur)
Smash 4:

For the most part a lot of Brawl's cast felt like the Inklings or Ridley do to me now, eliciting more of a feeling of "okay, they make sense" than personal excitement. And a lot of the really popular choices give me the same reaction of "okay" that I described (and in some cases elicit total apathy or even antipathy), while the characters I'd like as much as the Smash 4 newcomers I listed are considerably less popular or didn't exist until after the ballot. I mean yeah I guess part of that comes from my three favorite franchises () having some of the highest amount of characters, and the smaller new franchises I'd like bei no-hopers, but I'd take a Fire Emblem character over a Kirby newcomer any day of the week. Same with Super Mario over WarioWare, or Pokémon over Xenoblade Chronicles. Hell, if given the choice of a specific character from each, I'd take them over a DK newcomer.

Just my thoughts.

Sure, the appeal of newcomers is subjective. But for me, the split is something more like this:

(Brawl)
(Smash 4)

The split I'd guess is between Brawl focusing on topping up classic franchises, whereas Smash 4 was bringing more of the modern ones into the fold. Nothing is inherently wrong with either. Brawl's were perhaps more "obvious" but I don't think that's a bad thing. I also always find a lot of protagonist characters really bland and prefer villain characters.

In terms of what would personally excite me:
- K Rool is my most wanted. Dixie and Cranky would also excite me more than anything any other series has to offer. Funky would be a laugh.
- Ridley was probably my #2 this game. Dark Samus and Sylux would also be really cool to see.
- The most I'd be excited for from Mario is a Dry Bowser echo, but I think Toad is long overdue and Geno would be cool to see.
- I never got into Sun/Moon because I'd prefer a game to an extended tutorial. With that said, the Pokemon I'd be most excited for are not in realistic contention for this game. Mimikyu or Decidueye would be alright, but I can't get excited for either. Gengar when?
- Pig Ganon aside, there's noone from the series I'd be massively excited for, but noone i'd really mind, either.
- Bandana Dee would be cool I guess? Not someone I'd campaign for but I wouldn't be disappointed to see him.
- I don't really care for anyone from here either. Ashley's popularity is inexplicable to me, but so are most "cute" characters.
- Honestly my least favourite series in Smash for various reasons.
- Elma would be cool; in fact she is one of very few anime women I've seen whose design isn't atrocious. The XC2 designs are embarrassing though and I'd rather not see them here.

I feel like that's covered the "major" first party series. Seeing the third party series (particularly Sonic and Street Fighter) expanded would be really cool.

- - - - -

All this said, we have literally every character back from previous games. The number of characters I'm genuinely interested in playing has easily doubled since Smash 4, and I got one of the characters I wanted the most.

If we get noone new from here? Fine.
If all we get are my 10 most hated new characters? OK.

Because I've still got every character I cared about in any previous game. DK getting the love it deserves would just be the cherry on top of a very, very large cake.

 

[Wambo]

I don't know if we can talk about balance stuff in this thread but

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This.
This makes me so happy.

This honestly isn't too big of a deal. There are plenty of opportunities in Smash 4 where I can spend a decent amount of time charging as Cloud before someone gets to me, and it's pretty easy to dodge out of it before an attack is landed. Hell, most people wouldn't even think about using ranged attacks to stop this in the future, because the possibility of them landing a solid smash attack is just too enticing.

Unless there's some other big Cloud changes that I'm not aware of, he's still going to be a relatively top-tier character for aware players.

 

[KMDP]

You would be right.

It's actually kind of funnier to me with your "The gang's all here!" signature under it.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Okay so question for you guys. Going by our current definition for an echo fighter, would you say melee falco/roy were echo fighters? I think they were the only ones that fit the bill.

They have different weight and speed values and stuff so I guess not, roy was also shorter than marth in melee and falco was taller than fox

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I don't know if we can talk about balance stuff in this thread but

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This.
This makes me so happy.

That’s just hot

I'd actually take "another" Dark Pit variant over Waluigi, though.

Both would you accept the extra year of waiting?

 

[Fenriraga]

I don't know if we can talk about balance stuff in this thread but

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This.
This makes me so happy.

Yeah, considering Cloud can still cancel/shield Limit Charge and act out of it almost instantly, I don't think that nerf is really going to hit him as hard as people think it will.
Still, if it helps people stop complaining about me being a tier "W Word" when I'm just playing a character from a game I love that just so happens to be good, I'll happily pretend he's nerfed to hell and back.

(Spoilers, his nerfs are pretty minor in the grand scheme of things.)

 

[osby]

That’s just hot

Both would you accept the extra year of waiting?

If it makes the game better, sure.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Okay so question for you guys. Going by our current definition for an echo fighter, would you say melee falco/roy were echo fighters? I think they were the only ones that fit the bill.

Wouldn't Melee Dr. Mario count for Melee Mario? I know there's some differences but are those enough??? Echoes are confusing.

They have different weight and speed values and stuff so I guess not, roy was also shorter than marth in melee and falco was taller than fox

How much of a height difference matters though? Lucina and Marth are different heights aren't they??? Echoesssss

 

[TMNTSSB4]

If it makes the game better, sure.

That’s what patches are for

 

[RawstyleEevee]

https://gonintendo.com/stories/3136...-smash-bros-ultimate-roster-info-coming-close

Was this discussed yet? Could imo throw a wrench in speculation overall

 

[Idon]

Wouldn't Melee Dr. Mario count for Melee Mario? I know there's some differences but are those enough??? Echoes are confusing.

How much of a height difference matters though? Lucina and Marth are different heights aren't they??? Echoesssss

By pixels. Not enough to do anything with.

Fact of the matter is, it's only Smash 4 that introduced this level of laziness to its clones.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

https://gonintendo.com/stories/3136...-smash-bros-ultimate-roster-info-coming-close

Was this discussed yet? Could imo throw a wrench in speculation overall

It has. Most people have decided this means nothing. I'm deciding it probably means nothing too big this summer and we'll get more info starting the fall. Mayyyyyyybe late August.

But the choice of closer to December over stay tuned or something like that is interesting.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Wouldn't Melee Dr. Mario count for Melee Mario? I know there's some differences but are those enough??? Echoes are confusing.

How much of a height difference matters though? Lucina and Marth are different heights aren't they??? Echoesssss

Pretty sure marth and lucina only have pixels worth of difference, meanwhile those two...

 

[osby]

That’s what patches are for

I guess. You can't really add new game modes via patches unless they are basic stuff. Or maybe you can, I'm not very good at this stuff.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

If choices in smash are made solely on popularity we'd have a pretty straight forward roster and we would've never seen characters like Ryu, Snake or Jigglypuff (kinda biased here). But seeing as Waluigi is still an assist trophy i'm kinda betting on popularity not being a priority.

Jigglypuff isn't in Smash as a WTF character or because of claimed popularity at the time, she got included in Smash 64 because Sakurai needed some characters he could base off an existing playable character, and Jigglypuff was an option that could be semi-cloned off of Kirby, while there weren't really much other options that were viable (the only viable options at the time I can think of are Falco and Young Link, who have less obvious potential to be given different special moves and differentiated as much as Jigglypuff was).

https://nintendoenthusiast.com/blog...n-on-potential-super-smash-bros-ultimate-dlc/

So like, did they start work on Mewtwo DLC before Smash 4 was released tho?

DLC development starts before the game releases, the final few months of development are devoted to balancing/bug testing, so during this time the artists and other asset creators have nothing to do, and thus are relegated to starting creation of assets for DLC. Then additionally it typically takes at least a month after the game is finished to be released, so during this time the rest of the team can get onto developing the DLC (which is how day 1 DLC can be a thing without being intentionally withheld content). Developers just can't openly admit they're planning DLC before release, much less actually developing it already, without accusations of "withholding content to sell" from fans. Thus you get the PR speak that DLC totally won't be considered until post-release.

So yes, Mewtwo was already in development by the Smash 3DS released, and Lucas/Roy/Ryu were certainly planned and probably also in development by that point (since a new Smash character can take over a year to create and Ryu released in June 2014, nine months after Smash 3DS' Japanese release).

 

[viewtifulduck82]

They have different weight and speed values and stuff so I guess not, roy was also shorter than marth in melee and falco was taller than fox

I'm aware they have different values, but isn't that the point of echo fighters? Dark pit and lucina having less of those differences in 4 doesn't really change anything imo. If anything, they could be getting more of those stat changes in this game. I think they fit in the same umbrella.

By pixels. Not enough to do anything with.

Fact of the matter is, it's only Smash 4 that introduced this level of laziness to its clones.

I'd say melee was just as bad tbh. Maybe a little better in that there were more differences. I'd still call it lazy by that standard tho. Especially compared to brawl's semi clones.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I'm aware they have different values, but isn't that the point of echo fighters? Dark pit and lucina having less of those differences in 4 doesn't really change anything imo. If anything, they could be getting more of those stat changes in this game. I think they fit in the same umbrella.


I'd say melee was just as bad tbh. Maybe a little better in that there were more differences. I'd still call it lazy by that standard tho. Especially compared to brawl's semi clones.

Bill trinen confirmed echoes have the same stats

 

[viewtifulduck82]

That

Bill trinen confirmed echoes have the same stats

That doesn't make sense seeing as we have confirmation that daisy side b sends at a downward angle, and that dark pit retains his side b angle??

I'm not referring to state changes as "moves faster/is heavier". I guess the better term is move properties.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Bill trinen confirmed echoes have the same stats

Bill Trinen also "Confirmed" that Dr. Mario's pills we're a reason he was an echo too despite Dark Pit's arrows.

Honestly I have a feeling at the end of the day when the game is released echoes won't be clear and cut in their criteria. But we will probably be able to develop criteria when we have the full list of echoes and who isn't.

 

[Makai Wars]

Yeah, considering Cloud can still cancel/shield Limit Charge and act out of it almost instantly, I don't think that nerf is really going to hit him as hard as people think it will.
Still, if it helps people stop complaining about me being a tier "W Word" when I'm just playing a character from a game I love that just so happens to be good, I'll happily pretend he's nerfed to hell and back.

(Spoilers, his nerfs are pretty minor in the grand scheme of things.)

Yeah I agree, Cloud's issue is that he still out ranges, out speeds and out damages the vast majority of the cast and straight up invalidates characters like and because his sword is just so fat that they can't do anything.
Unless they add some actual startup on his moves so he doesn't swing his sword that's bigger than Ike's with the speed of Metaknight, Cloud is always going to feel nightmarishly unfun to play against.

 

[GunBlaze]

Wouldn't Melee Dr. Mario count for Melee Mario? I know there's some differences but are those enough??? Echoes are confusing.

How much of a height difference matters though? Lucina and Marth are different heights aren't they??? Echoesssss

Melee Dr. Mario would be the closest to an Echo, for his model was the same size as Mario's, and the only difference in their physics is Dr. Mario's air speed, which is actually faster. Ironically, however, Dr. Mario's hurtboxes were larger than Mario's.

Nontheless, the differences in his moves' properties (Stronger attacks, no meteor on Fair, worse recovery overall) did manage to distinguish him from Mario.

 

[P.Kat]

LOL INFINITY WARS COMING xD!

Friendly reminder, if you or your friends' character don't feel so good while in Smash, it's too late for them.

Spoiler

I don't know if we can talk about balance stuff in this thread but

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This.
This makes me so happy.

As someone who likes sword characters, even Cloud, this does not make me happy. At this rate, he's gonna become the new Greninja, he already has more N's than Greninja does in his name.

 

[Idon]

Friendly reminder, if you or your friends' character don't feel so good while in Smash, it's too late for them.

Spoiler

As someone who likes sword characters, even Cloud, this does not make me happy. At this rate, he's gonna become the new Greninja, he already has more N's than Greninja does in his name.

This'll do nothing for Cloud's viability.
He's still fast.
Still has giant disjoints.
Still has a manual way to charge his meter.

The fact that he doesn't get rewarded for getting hit anymore is something that should've been in since the beginning.

 

[Guh-Huzzah!]

Yeah, considering Cloud can still cancel/shield Limit Charge and act out of it almost instantly, I don't think that nerf is really going to hit him as hard as people think it will.
Still, if it helps people stop complaining about me being a tier "W Word" when I'm just playing a character from a game I love that just so happens to be good, I'll happily pretend he's nerfed to hell and back.

(Spoilers, his nerfs are pretty minor in the grand scheme of things.)

It's not much. but it's definitely a nerf. A small one, at that.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

I just realized why I have an irrational hatred against Dr. Mario not being an echo or even a character at all.

Because we actually have Mario in different costumes, specifically the Builder outfit, still as Mario. It's not like there's a third character, Builder Mario. Meh I really wish Dr. Mario was just a costume in SSB4.

 

[Idon]

I just realized why I have an irrational hatred against Dr. Mario not being an echo or even a character at all.

Because we actually have Mario in different costumes, specifically the Builder outfit, still as Mario. It's not like there's a third character, Builder Mario. Meh I really wish Dr. Mario was just a costume in SSB4.

It really sucks that different people are exact clones and Mario cosplaying is considered wildly different.

Seriously, Smash tradition's stupid sometimes and there's a reason some characters get cut.

 

[MSmariosonic]

Anyone else find it odd that Kongo Falls doesn't have the 'DK' series symbol next to the blog post while Moray Towers does feature the 'squid' symbol.

 

[KMDP]

That
That doesn't make sense seeing as we have confirmation that daisy side b sends at a downward angle, and that dark pit retains his side b angle??

I'm not referring to state changes as "moves faster/is heavier". I guess the better term is move properties.

Daisy's Side-B sending people down instead of up is not a "Stat Change"; changing how heavy the character is, or how fast they run, is.

From what we know, Echoes have the same base stats and moves, but the moves can have different properties. Final Smashes are the exception.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Dr. Mario not being an echo is good imo as Dr. Mario actually plays very differently from regular Mario

 

[NintenZ]

I really don’t get how Rodin as a Bayonetta Echo would work...

They don’t even have similar body structures and their abilities are drastically different, it makes no sense.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

As someone who likes sword characters, even Cloud, this does not make me happy. At this rate, he's gonna become the new Greninja, he already has more N's than Greninja does in his name.

Greninja's nerfs are really overstated, he only ever got nerfed in one patch (1.0.4), where the nerfs were mostly to toning down a few broken moves and other absurd aspects (e.g. lagless u-smash that hit above and to the sides, Hydro Pump that was strong enough to make a Dedede doing Dedede Jump die off the top, a standing hurtbox so short that Fox's lasers wouldn't hit him) and fixing glitches (e.g. cancelling landing lag with Shadow Sneak). Greninja's drop in tier perception had a lot more to do with nearly all his pre-1.0.4 players dropping him in the typical overreaction that comes to nerfs. After that he just got a mostly impractical glitch removed in the 3DS-only 1.0.5 (the running Shadow Sneak glitch, which made people freakout that they were "nerfing Greninja again" and led to the birth of that meme), and then only ever got a considerable amount of buffs in the patches afterward despite never being considered worse than mid tier.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Dr. Mario not being an echo is good imo as Dr. Mario actually plays very differently from regular Mario

I don't think we were talking about playstyle and moveset but in actual concept. I understand mechanicly why he's not an echo and he shouldn't be unless his moveset is changed. I am upset that a character like Lucina is made an echo and yet Mario in a doctor's outfit isn't when Mario in a builder's outfit is considered a costume. (Also characters like Alph being a costume when Mario gets to have two slots on the roster).

 

[osby]

I know it's a hot topic and all but please wake me up when clone talk is over.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

I know it's a hot topic and all but please wake me up when clone talk is over.

Ok. I've set my alarm for December 7th.

 

[Makai Wars]

I don't think we were talking about playstyle and moveset but in actual concept. I understand mechanicly why he's not an echo and he shouldn't be unless his moveset is changed. I am upset that a character like Lucina is made an echo and yet Mario in a doctor's outfit isn't when Mario in a builder's outfit is considered a costume. (Also characters like Alph being a costume when Mario gets to have two slots on the roster).

Dr. Mario is basically "Classic Mario" from Melee/64 like how Young Link is "Classic Link" while regular Link has changed. Lucina makes sense as an echo because she does nothing differently from Marth, and Marth hasn't changed at any point in his Smash iterations to justify differentiating Lucina from him.
If you're mad that Lucina didn't get decloned, well like, sorry?

 

[Bowserlick]

If clone talk is similar to previous clone talks, are the discussions clones of each other?

It's like screaming into a gorge and hearing your Echo.

 

[Mutsukki]

I don't think we were talking about playstyle and moveset but in actual concept. I understand mechanicly why he's not an echo and he shouldn't be unless his moveset is changed. I am upset that a character like Lucina is made an echo and yet Mario in a doctor's outfit isn't when Mario in a builder's outfit is considered a costume. (Also characters like Alph being a costume when Mario gets to have two slots on the roster).

I'll add to what Makai Wars said with the fact that Melee is 17 years old. At the time, Dr. Mario was way more relevant (Dr. Mario 64 had just came out, a great game btw) and there were no alternate costumes for anyone. He was back for the sake of being classic Mario and then a little bit more different. There's no real way to compare what happened in these games when they're apart by 13 years