Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[KMDP]

Something would have to be pretty egregiously overpowered for it to become a noticeable detriment to casual matches. I get where you're coming from, but the argument should really be between 1v1 and 2v2.

Yeah, it's just a hypothetical. But 1v1 and 2v2 aren't the only things that matter.

Heavyweights tend to do poorly in 1v1 competitive play, but can excel in Free-for-all. This is okay.

 

[Zerp]

Is now a good time break this out?

On another note, who do you guys think are the most likely (currently revealed, if you spoil it for the others you'll be fed to a Snagglebeast) Dream Friends from Star Allies to possibly make it in as DLC (excluding B.W. Dee)? I have an order that seems reasonable...

1: Adeleine (& Ribbon, if possible)
2: Gooey
3: Marx
4: Dark Meta Knight (Could be an echo or semi of real MK)
5: Rick & the other animals
6: Daroach

Spoiler: Not a datamine spoiler but kind of a spoiler overall sort of, maybe?

0. Dark Matter (not a dream friend, but I find it absurdly likely that they're going to be a boss in Wave 2 or beyond (Hyness has that Hyperzone floor, it'll probably update and given his obvious connections to Dark Matter it might lead to something), they'll get the inevitable bandwagon except it'll even bigger than Marx's because Dark Matter is stupid levels of popular among Kirby fans)

1. Marx (Sakurai Bias + popularity)
2. Dark Meta Knight
3. Gooey
4. Rick
5. Daroach
6. Adeleine (Sakurai made the "no humans" rule for the Kirby anime himself, which of course gutted her from the series for 18 years, I doubt he likes her)

...Okay.

You fully balance the game for 1v1. Great.

Only now something is over-powered in Free-for-alls and it'll hurt the fun for casuals. So you fix that.

Oh no, now 1v1 is unbalanced again, so you go back and adjust it.

But now the game is unbalanced in 2v2.

Fix fix fix.

You introduce a new character, and the cycle starts over again.

See the problem? You're playing whack-a-mole with balance, you'll never get it perfect, but you can get close, but it'll never be all the way there.

This game isn't really balanced in the other modes though, I don't really get where you're coming from because it feels like you're implying FFAs/doubles and other modes are on the level of balance of singles, I'd get it if they were similarly balanced but they aren't. Cloud is absurdly OP in doubles, and also absurdly OP in FFAs and in both he makes the balance in singles look sane. Yet thing is, where are all the people complaining about FFA Cloud? You'll hear a lot about him in doubles, but in FFA, they... don't really care that much about it. Probably because very few people who play FFAs actually take the game's balance all that seriously, and what'd be considered a major imbalance to a competitive singles player is considered tolerable there, right? With the way things currently are we're never going to get that close to balancing all the modes, so why not try making it close to being perfect in at least one mode where people actually care a lot about it, unlike now where it's just a mess everywhere. It's not a perfect solution but it'd cause the least suffering.

 

[Idon]

Yeah, it's just a hypothetical. But 1v1 and 2v2 aren't the only things that matter.

Heavyweights tend to do poorly in competitive play, but can excel in Free-for-all. This is okay.

They could, but they could also die like everyone else.
Thus is the random and chaotic nature of FFA.

Here's the thing.
What's the worst thing that could happen if you balance for FFA?
FFA is still random dumb fun that nobody understands while competitive gamemodes suffer.
What's the worst thing that could happen if you balance for competitive gamemodes?
FFA is still random dumb fun that nobody understands with potentially less interesting characters while competitive gamemodes benefit.

Conversely, look at the inverse.

The best if you balance for FFA:
FFA is still just as fun as it was, but competitive gamemodes, by sheer luck, manage to be successful
THe best if you balance for competitive:
FFA is still just as fun as it was, but competitive gamemodes vastly improve thus bringing in more competitive players, retaining more players, getting more spectators, and having a much longer lasting appeal (16 years if you manage to hit Melee magic)

 

[TMNTSSB4]

After watching Ant-Man and the Wasp...I now want a small flying Nintendo character in Smash...or Charmy Bee

The entire Mario franchise has a ton of hidden gem costumes that they could use. I'm personally a fan of pimp bowser.

Also side note: I don't know if it's just me, but your entire sig's just made up of broken images.

That’s Pimp Daddy Bowser to you

 

[KingBroly]

Assuming the Character Select Screen is jammed to the brim with characters, how would they do DLC? Have the bottom row with 1 less character and then add in a 'DLC button' where you choose the character on your Profile at the bottom?

 

[KMDP]

This game isn't really balanced in the other modes though, I don't really get where you're coming from because it feels like you're implying FFAs/doubles and other modes are on the level of balance of singles, I'd get it if they were similarly balanced but they aren't. Cloud is absurdly OP in doubles, and also absurdly OP in FFAs and in both he makes the balance in singles look sane. Yet thing is, where are all the people complaining about FFA Cloud? You'll hear a lot about him in doubles, but in FFA, they... don't really care that much about it. Probably because very few people who play FFAs actually take the game's balance all that seriously, and what'd be considered a major imbalance to a competitive singles player is considered tolerable there, right? With the way things currently are we're never going to get that close to balancing all the modes, so why not try making it close to being perfect in at least one mode where people actually care a lot about it, unlike now where it's just a mess everywhere. It's not a perfect solution but it'd cause the least suffering.

As someone who doesn't play competitively, I don't personally care about game balance on a minute scale. You want it to be perfect in one particular area, fine, that's your prerogative, it doesn't have to be mine, or Sakurai's.

With 70 Characters, there are 4900 different 1v1 configurations, and over 24 Million 2v2 configurations. Would you like to be the one to balance them all perfectly? I wouldn't.

 

[BlondeLombax]

Assuming the Character Select Screen is jammed to the brim with characters, how would they do DLC? Have the bottom row with 1 less character and then add in a 'DLC button' where you choose the character on your Profile at the bottom?

They did something similar to that in 3DS, I can see them doing something along those lines if we get DLC (or Splatoon/ARMS style free updates). That's an entirely plausible solution.

 

[KMDP]

They did something similar to that in 3DS, I can see them doing something along those lines if we get DLC (or Splatoon/ARMS style free updates). That's an entirely plausible solution.

Actually, did Smash 4 have any free DLC updates except Mewtwo (for Early Adopters)? It'd be neat if they brought out new items as free DLC.

Holiday themed skins would also be cool.

Looking forward to St. Patrick's Day Peach and Bowser, for that callback to Super Mario Kart's uncensored victory screens. XD

EDIT: Oh! Stage skins would also be super cool (paid or free, more likely paid). Moonside for Fourside, Mushroom Kingdom for Mushroomy Kingdom, seasonal versions of certain stages...

 

[Idon]

As someone who doesn't play competitively, I don't personally care about game balance on a minute scale. You want it to be perfect in one particular area, fine, that's your prerogative, it doesn't have to be mine, or Sakurai's.

With 70 Characters, there are 4900 different 1v1 configurations, and over 24 Million 2v2 configurations. Would you like to be the one to balance them all perfectly? I wouldn't.

Yeah, but nobody balances characters that way, It generally only applies to egregious character imbalances.
In fact, it's a staple of competition; rock beats paper beats scissors beats rock.
Due to individual character differences, some characters will always be better than others and so on.

However, therein lies the issue of when a character is stronger/weaker than the majority other characters.
Now I'm about to say something something subjective here- that's just not fun.
It's not fun to see rock beat both paper and scissors and for scissors to lose to both paper and rock.

If you enjoy Rock-Paper-Scissors with 8 people at once and some guy randomly gets to go gun, but scissors sometimes become MEGA-SCISSORS and beats everything, you won't feel that power, and you won't feel it when things change either.

But when you play purist Rock-Paper-Scissors because that's what you enjoy, it's really a shame when the game turns into Rock-Rock-Rock and when it could potentially be fixed, but just... isn't. Maybe not perfectly fixed, but better than it was originally.

All we scissors mains just WANNA NOT BE BOPPED ALL DAY, OKAY? SCREW YOU ROCK MAAAAAAAAINS.

 

[KMDP]

Yeah, but nobody balances characters that way, It generally only applies to egregious character imbalances.
In fact, it's a staple of competition; rock beats paper beats scissors beats rock.
Due to individual character differences, some characters will always be better than others and so on.

However, therein lies the issue of when a character is stronger/weaker than the majority other characters.
Now I'm about to say something something subjective here- that's just not fun.
It's not fun to see rock beat both paper and scissors and for scissors to lose to both paper and rock.

If you enjoy Rock-Paper-Scissors with 8 people at once and some guy randomly gets to go gun, but scissors sometimes become MEGA-SCISSORS and beats everything, you won't feel that power, and you won't feel it when things change either.

But when you play purist Rock-Paper-Scissors because that's what you enjoy, it's really a shame when the game turns into Rock-Rock-Rock and when it could potentially be fixed, but just... isn't. Maybe not perfectly fixed, but better than it was originally.

All we scissors mains just WANNA NOT BE BOPPED ALL DAY, OKAY? SCREW YOU ROCK MAAAAAAAAINS.

Hey, I'm not arguing against balancing or balance updates, just that they aren't the end-all-be-all of Smash.

Also, 'nobody balances characters that way', what do you mean? Smash's game developers have millions upon millions upon millions of character interactions to test; if one slips through the cracks (see; Meta Knight in Brawl, Bayo's glitches in Ultimate's Beta), you have balance patches now.

 

[Zinith]

Holiday themed skins would also be cool.

The amount of Yoshi skins that are possible thanks to Woolly World....... *quivers*

 

[JayJay55]

That's more on Bandai's side, to be fair. At least the Digimon Story games got brought over after the fiasco that was the All-Stars Rumble fighter.

I actually enjoyed Digimon All-Star Rumble...
However, I would’ve preferred it be more in line with the Rumble Arena games.

 

[KMDP]

The amount of Yoshi skins that are possible thanks to Woolly World....... *quivers*

You want Yoshi with a Santa Hat? Or a St. Patrick's Day top hat? Or Mario/Luigi/Wario/Waluigi caps? Yoshi wearing an Apron? A Toque Blanche (Chef's Hat)? A Fez? What about Yoshi in a dapper tux? Yoshi wearing Galoshes. Yoshi wearing High Heels! Yoshi wearing a Plague Doctor's mask. A 1960's Era Sci Fi Space Suit!

I could go on, Zinith. All of them with 8+ Different colour variations.

 

[Idon]

Hey, I'm not arguing against balancing or balance updates, just that they aren't the end-all-be-all of Smash.

Also, 'nobody balances characters that way', what do you mean? Smash's game developers have millions upon millions upon millions of character interactions to test; if one slips through the cracks (see; Meta Knight), you have balance patches now.

Yeah, but nothing is.
Whatever personifies what Smash is is different for everyone.

The point of my post is that character interactions aren't balanced minutely with all characters' matchups and situations.
Sakurai doesn't sit down and say "time to test this 0 to death on every character to see if it works on everyone before I fix it!" He still deletes it off the face of the planet.

"Nobody balances that way" as in no one tests the aforementioned 40 million possibilities. They see that 10 million of those possibilities are lame as hell and those possibilities are changed by changing the source, regardless if those changed possibilities are explored thoroughly.

 

[Zinith]

You want Yoshi with a Santa Hat? Or a St. Patrick's Day top hat? Or Mario/Luigi/Wario/Waluigi caps? Yoshi wearing an Apron? A Toque Blanche (Chef's Hat)? A Fez? What about Yoshi in a dapper tux? Yoshi wearing Galoshes. Yoshi wearing High Heels! Yoshi wearing a Plague Doctor's mask. A 1960's Era Sci Fi Space Suit!

I could go on, Zinith. All of them with 8+ Different colour variations.

I mean Yoshi with literal skins of everything. Fruit, objects, designs, images, even other Smash characters. Woolly World opened Pandora's Box on Yoshi designs

 

[KingBroly]

They did something similar to that in 3DS, I can see them doing something along those lines if we get DLC (or Splatoon/ARMS style free updates). That's an entirely plausible solution.

The 3DS has the luxury of having 1 system per player. Switch does not, and has to be accounted for. Having a separate screen for DLC characters won't work. You have to fit it on the same screen as everyone else.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

hey guys I'm back on my nonsense

so I've been doing some thinking about the mother series; I've kinda been seeing what forums have left to show and what don't.

1. We have three assist trophies potentially from the series. Ramblin' Evil Mushroom

2. We have all of Lucas and Ness' party members in some way - Either final smash or Assist Trophy

3. All of Mother's past stages have been shown.

granted, I don't necessarily think it's getting anything new, but, Ninten as an Echo Fighter or Costume and/or Masked Man as a semi-clone isn't the craziest thing? Or we've seen Mother show all it's load early. just a thought

 

[Zinith]

2. We have all of Lucas and Ness' party members in some way - Either final smash or Assist Trophy

Well Dusty is not shown in Final Smash or AT form. The snake that Lucas uses is the only reference to him...

 

[KMDP]

Yeah, but nothing is.
Whatever personifies what Smash is is different for everyone.

The point of my post is that character interactions aren't balanced minutely with all characters' matchups and situations.
Sakurai doesn't sit down and say "time to test this 0 to death on every character to see if it works on everyone before I fix it!" He still deletes it off the face of the planet.

"Nobody balances that way" as in no one tests the aforementioned 40 million possibilities. They see that 10 million of those possibilities are lame as hell and those possibilities are changed by changing the source, regardless if those changed possibilities are explored thoroughly.

Okay, gotcha!

The infinite combos happen because there are millions of character interactions and they can't balance them all. Thank God for balance patches, I wouldn't want to have to balance a game of Ultimate's magnitude in the 6th Console Generation or earlier, jeez louise.

Sakurai: Oh for the days of Melee, when I only had 676 different possible 1v1 matchups to test.

Now, let us listen to some relaxing Sims 1 music (as played by an unsung Youtube Cover Artist) while we muse on how ridiculously huge Smash has become in it's 20 year lifespan.

All possible combinations of Smash 64's multiplayer mode assuming it had both free-for-all and team matches (1v1, 2v2, 3 player, 4 player, 2v1, 1v2, 1v3, 3v1 for a total of 88,272 possible match-ups) don't scratch the surface of the 18,974,736 possible 2v2 or 4-Player Free-for-all Matches that arise from the 66 known-character roster of Super Smash Bros. Ultimate.

I'm not even going to go into all the possible match combinations, because that's... that's... phew... I imagine there's a "x10^#" in it.

 

[UltimateWario]

hey guys I'm back on my nonsense

so I've been doing some thinking about the mother series; I've kinda been seeing what forums have left to show and what don't.

1. We have three assist trophies potentially from the series. Ramblin' Evil Mushroom

2. We have all of Lucas and Ness' party members in some way - Either final smash or Assist Trophy

3. All of Mother's past stages have been shown.

granted, I don't necessarily think it's getting anything new, but, Ninten as an Echo Fighter or Costume and/or Masked Man as a semi-clone isn't the craziest thing? Or we've seen Mother show all it's load early. just a thought

As someone who isn't much of an Earthbound fan, I'd enjoy Ninten being an Echo of Ness. All three games would have their main characters then, and it would be nice and succinct. Does Ninten have anything drastically different from the other two characters?

 

[Patriot Duck]

hey guys I'm back on my nonsense

so I've been doing some thinking about the mother series; I've kinda been seeing what forums have left to show and what don't.

1. We have three assist trophies potentially from the series. Ramblin' Evil Mushroom

2. We have all of Lucas and Ness' party members in some way - Either final smash or Assist Trophy

3. All of Mother's past stages have been shown.

granted, I don't necessarily think it's getting anything new, but, Ninten as an Echo Fighter or Costume and/or Masked Man as a semi-clone isn't the craziest thing? Or we've seen Mother show all it's load early. just a thought

I like the idea of a Ninten echo. The most exciting part for me is the possibility of a redesign to make him more distinct from Ness in appearance and personality.

I say give him his own color scheme and a scarf like in the fan-art. Of course, he'll need his own voice and mannerisms too.

Spoiler

Anything to get us one step closer to an Earthbound trilogy remake.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

As someone who isn't much of an Earthbound fan, I'd enjoy Ninten being an Echo of Ness. All three games would have their main characters then, and it would be nice and succinct. Does Ninten have anything drastically different from the other two characters?

Not really. Also, Masked Man semi-clone wouldn't be too hard.

Well Dusty is not shown in Final Smash or AT form. The snake that Lucas uses is the only reference to him...

Still a reference!

...I doubt we'd see Duster anyways, but, yeah.

(we also don't have any flint reference, sadlly. I wanted the plank instead of the stick.)

 

[Will]

I like the idea of a Ninten echo. The most exciting part for me is the possibility of a redesign to make him more distinct from Ness in appearance and personality.

Spoiler

Make him low-tier on purpose by giving him an Asthma gimmick

 

[MainJPW]

Holiday themed skins would also be cool.

Jolly Mario:

Animal Crossing:

If Isabelle is in:

St. Sonic/Halloween:

Link already practically wears a Santa hat so that's an easy recolour. This Link one isn't official, but it's cool as heck:

And for Bowser...

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

balancing +60 characters is pretty difficult, there isn't a balanced fighter with that many characters, not marvel, not dragon ball budokai, etc.
You need to consider that not everbody knows what a character can do unless you have used that character during an extend time and that playtester cost money, hell imagine that eversingle character has a playtester that are +60 people that you need to pay for months or even years, not to mention programmers.

One example of how is difficult to balance is when you nerfing a "X" character because what he can do a stupid combo, or has 2 or 3 stupid moves, ok you nerf these moves and that combo is no longer possible ok pretty good, oh but wait results that "X" character was gatekeeping "Y" character who never was used at the top level because is no viable against "X" character, but now results that "Y" character is pretty broken too, ok nerfed, ok but wait he was a counterpick against "Z" character who is very boring to watch, ok nerfed to, but oh no remember that one "X" character who we nerfed this stupids moves 6 months ago???, well results that players discovered 3 more stupids combos thanks to the nerfs we give it, oh and character "A" has 3 new bugs in stage number 82, fix that too, now extend this to another 63 characters, and you will see how difficult can be to balance a game.

Hell remember in smash 4 when bayo was nerfed and how all people were saying that she was mid-tier or high-mid tier at max??? 6-8 months later bayo is considered S tier. balance is not something that you fix once and go to the next thing.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

I guess it’s mostly because people are trying it for the first time. But yeah, they did make it that the opponent gets knocked back fast and then come to a pretty fast stop, so combos and follow ups are going to be different.

To be honest, I want them to decrease the end lag of air dodges than what they have now, since air dodges don’t seem to reward players at all for using defensive options and instead punishes them. I also wish they made wavedashing more possible, since short hop or not, the end lag might make it not as useful or useless.

In other words make air dodging at least potent and readily available, while keeping the game more aggressive centric.

Air-Dodging doesn't suck. You just can't mindlessly spam it and then punish the opponent who SUPPOSE TO be in Advantage. Now it's simply a one time option on stage to reset to neutral (sometimes risky as they still can read your option) and a risky option offstage if you use it to late. Airdodging should have never been in it's Smash 4 form and I'd argue brawl form either. You can directioal air-dodge and snap the ledge as well. It was simply not rewarding to go offstage in Smash 4 simply because of magnet hands, buffed recoveries, and broken air-dodges which made ledge-trapping the go to option.

 

[KMDP]

One example of how is difficult to balance is when you nerfing a "X" character because what he can do a stupid combo, or has 2 or 3 stupid moves, ok you nerf these moves and that combo is no longer possible ok pretty good, oh but wait results that "X" character was gatekeeping "Y" character who never was used at the top level because is no viable against "X" character, but now results that "Y" character is pretty broken too, ok nerfed, ok but wait he was a counterpick against "Z" character who is very boring to watch, ok nerfed to, but oh no remember that one "X" character who we nerfed this stupids moves 6 months ago???, well results that players discovered 3 more stupids combos thanks to the nerfs we give it, oh and character "A" has 3 new bugs in stage number 82, fix that too, now extend this to another 63 characters, and you will see how difficult can be to balance a game.

Hell remember in smash 4 when bayo was nerfed and how all people were saying that she was mid-tier or high-mid tier at max??? 6-8 months later bayo is considered S tier. balance is not something that you fix once and go to the next thing.

This is what I was getting at with the "whack-a-mole" analogy. You fix one thing and something else crops up.

EDIT: About the balloon knockback thing, imagine how cool it's going to look in doubles once people are used to it. One person knocks their opponent to their ally at mach speed, who then spikes them off the stage.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I'm tired. I'm think I'm gonna go-

"Mr. tehponycorn! One more "leak" before you go?"

Okay, okay. And you know what? Because you've been such a good bunch, I'll give you two "leaks!"

"YAY!"

Oh god I've officially lost it

Anyways, two more "leaks" before I go to bed.

Spoiler: "Leak" 1

https://boards.fireden.net/v/thread/423207212/#423207212
Here the rest of the newcomers for Smash Ultimate.

- Shadow
- Bandana Dee
- Karate Joe
- Simon Belmont
- King K Rool
- Hector

I've heard plans that we're revealing Simon Belmont at EVO, but we might be delaying it until their next Nintendo Direct.

We're going to actively be adding content to the game after launch, we're releasing 2 fighters every month for the first half in 2018, but I heard we could be swapping that idea for one a month.

We have plans for Banjo Kazooie, Paper Mario, Decidueye, Issac, Captain Toad, Shovel Knight, Geno, Hades, Shovel Knight, Mike Jones, Professor Layton, and Porky to be the characters, but these are all subject to change.

>mfw Hector in Smash Bros.

Spoiler: "Leak" 2

http://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/423211589
Remaining newcomers:

Geno
Dixie Kong
King K. Rool
Rex
Simon Belmont
Rayman

Echo Fighters:

Impa
Dark Samus
Shadow

Bare-bones, but acceptable nonetheless.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Just by virtue of patches existing it will be (and unlike Smash 4 it won't have development shift focus to an immediate new Smash game just a year after release, so the patching will probably end up going even longer), but it also has the tremendous benefit of building directly off of Smash 4, already by far the most balanced Smash game (especially if Bayo and Cloud were significantly nerfed), with the same development team. Then there's additionally the universal 3 frame jumpsquat and landing lag significantly lowered across the board, which is going to be more helpful in general to the lower tier characters, as they typically have slower jumpsquats and more landing lag. So even if the roster is huge, it has a lot going for it balance-wise.

Sadly the reality is that Bayo consists of 3-4 of the Top 8 at large tournament s now. She killed the balance along with Cloud from the game. Smash 4 balance went out the window with DLC but at least Ultimate seems to be more tailored for competition which means more patches. With Sakurai finally coming to accept that having universal jumpsquats and low landing lag across the board is a GOOD thing; characters like will no longer have frame data that is as oppressive towards the cast like in Smash 4. Just make bayonets Mid-Tier and we good.

 

[Smashiny]

Yeah, but nobody balances characters that way, It generally only applies to egregious character imbalances.
In fact, it's a staple of competition; rock beats paper beats scissors beats rock.
Due to individual character differences, some characters will always be better than others and so on.

However, therein lies the issue of when a character is stronger/weaker than the majority other characters.
Now I'm about to say something something subjective here- that's just not fun.
It's not fun to see rock beat both paper and scissors and for scissors to lose to both paper and rock.

If you enjoy Rock-Paper-Scissors with 8 people at once and some guy randomly gets to go gun, but scissors sometimes become MEGA-SCISSORS and beats everything, you won't feel that power, and you won't feel it when things change either.

But when you play purist Rock-Paper-Scissors because that's what you enjoy, it's really a shame when the game turns into Rock-Rock-Rock and when it could potentially be fixed, but just... isn't. Maybe not perfectly fixed, but better than it was originally.

All we scissors mains just WANNA NOT BE BOPPED ALL DAY, OKAY? SCREW YOU ROCK MAAAAAAAAINS.

I always thought playing as rock was too hard, and I never cut it as a scissors main. It may not be high on the tear-lists, but I'm paper all the way!

 

[Zeox]

As someone who isn't much of an Earthbound fan, I'd enjoy Ninten being an Echo of Ness. All three games would have their main characters then, and it would be nice and succinct. Does Ninten have anything drastically different from the other two characters?

Ninten is EXACTLY like ness, in moveset and even in design... which makes him the most boring possible character from the mother franchise, specially when there are characters more interesting, like Giegue / Gygas, Masked man, Porky, Duster, etc...
Since we are talking about Mother reps, i'm gonna post this message from the user jamesster445, that made an hypothetical moveset for Porky:

There has been a outcry of a certain character archetype for Smash Bros during the Wii U era and even now as we enter the Switch era. “Smash needs more villains and it needs more heavyweights.” Because of this, two names always pop up. Ridley from the Metroid series (who was recently confirmed) and King K.Rool of the Donkey Kong series. And Both are fine choices and there’s some commonality between them. They only had 2 reps and they were both heroes. But there was a third series that followed that same commonality but never got the same recognition. Which is sad, because the villain we’re talking about might be the most despicable villain Nintendo has ever published and more importantly, this villain has actually been in Smash before.

Spoiler

Special shout out to @Dalek_Kolt for his Porky sprites.

 

[UltimateWario]

Ninten is EXACTLY like ness, in moveset and even in design... which makes him the most boring possible character from the mother franchise, specially when there are characters more interesting, like Giegue / Gygas, Masked man, Porky, Duster, etc...
Since we are talking about Mother reps, i'm gonna post this message from the user jamesster445, that made an hypothetical moveset for Porky:

IDK man, Porky's mech is just too big, you know? Like, if you sized it down, it would look all weird and fragile and gangly. If you look at all of Porky's appearances, his mech is always at least TWICE as big as Ness, big enough to grab him with just one leg. If the mech was sized down enough to be playable, it just wouldn't be intimidating anymore, and that's the whole point of the character. Sorry. Porky's mech is just too big to work. Maybe you can get Starman or New Age Retro Hippie as an Earthbound villain rep?

Spoiler

:^)

 

[L9999]

You know what concerns me more than echoes and Simon Belmont? Online play, particularly how misguided FG was. FD only was a horrible way to go about having a "competitive mode," as it promotes uneven MUs, FD gives an advantage to certain characters. If you get paired with R.O.B, Mac or anyone with top mobility they flat out won't approach and will have a guaranteed advantage, because of the lack of platforms and how gigantic a lot of the omegas are (at least from 3DS exp). Speaking of omegas, the ones that have walls heavily promote planking, particular offenders are Mario, Corn, and Bayo. Because of lag and other factors those characters can go straight to the wall and recover completely unpunished from the very bottom of the stage. Adding Battlefield into FG won't solve the issue entirely. Better than nothing but then it is a 50/50 of A) going to a tri-plat to get roof KOd or b) FD to get camped and planked. If Smash 5 had a similar server to Smash Ladder it would definitely be sweet, but even a system that primitive doesn't seem to be in the Smash 's intentions. The most they could do is add Trashville and T&C somewhere, I don't know...

 

[osby]

Ninten is EXACTLY like ness, in moveset and even in design... which makes him the most boring possible character from the mother franchise, specially when there are characters more interesting, like Giegue / Gygas, Masked man, Porky, Duster, etc...
Since we are talking about Mother reps, i'm gonna post this message from the user jamesster445, that made an hypothetical moveset for Porky:

Daisy was one of the most boring choises from Mario and she still got in.

 

[PLATINUM7]

You know what concerns me more than echoes and Simon Belmont? Online play, particularly how misguided FG was. FD only was a horrible way to go about having a "competitive mode," as it promotes uneven MUs, FD gives an advantage to certain characters. If you get paired with R.O.B, Mac or anyone with top mobility they flat out won't approach and will have a guaranteed advantage, because of the lack of platforms and how gigantic a lot of the omegas are (at least from 3DS exp). Speaking of omegas, the ones that have walls heavily promote planking, particular offenders are Mario, Corn, and Bayo. Because of lag and other factors those characters can go straight to the wall and recover completely unpunished from the very bottom of the stage. Adding Battlefield into FG won't solve the issue entirely. Better than nothing but then it is a 50/50 of A) going to a tri-plat to get roof KOd or b) FD to get camped and planked. If Smash 5 had a similar server to Smash Ladder it would definitely be sweet, but even a system that primitive doesn't seem to be in the Smash 's intentions. The most they could do is add Trashville and T&C somewhere, I don't know...

All FD and Battlefield variants are suppose to have the same geometries now so there's no walled FDs.

 

[L9999]

All FD and Battlefield variants are suppose to have the same geometries now so there's no walled FDs.

Well those are good news. Dealing with planking is really tedious.

 

[Will]

Ninten is EXACTLY like ness, in moveset and even in design...

I'm really hoping you didn't just imply that Ninten copied everything from Ness when it couldn't be more the other way around.
The only comment I can really agree on is the design, Mother 2 is to Mother 1 like how Ultimate is to Smash 4, it reuses a lot of assets but is able to deliver two entirely separate products despite the numerous parallel similarities they share. The two games definitely share their differences to stand out, especially near each of their endgames with Ninten scoring the chick and giving Giygas a good 'ol high school musical to drive him away while Ness and his friends literally time travel and fight a Giygas Porky tampered with for ****s and giggles.

They're similar, but definitely not exact carbon copies.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

View attachment 151812

I'm really hoping you didn't just imply that Ninten copied everything from Ness when it couldn't be more the other way around.
The only comment I can really agree on is the design, Mother 2 is to Mother 1 like how Ultimate is to Smash 4, it reuses a lot of assets but is able to deliver two entirely separate products despite the numerous parallel similarities they share. The two games definitely share their differences to stand out, especially near each of their endgames with Ninten scoring the chick and giving Giygas a good 'ol high school musical to drive him away while Ness and his friends literally time travel and fight a Giygas Porky tampered with for ****s and giggles.

They're similar, but definitely not exact carbon copies.

That doesn’t really change the fact that Ninten and Ness look EXACTLY alike and would probably play exactly the same in Smash.

 

[Guh-Huzzah!]

Dark Meta Knight, Daroach, Adeline and Ribbon are coming to KSA as Dream Friends, and it's too much for my tiny Kirby Fanboy mind to comprehend.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

1: Porky can work just fine if they take Bedman notes from Guilty Gear

Not really. Also, Masked Man semi-clone wouldn't be too hard.

Still a reference!

...I doubt we'd see Duster anyways, but, yeah.

(we also don't have any flint reference, sadlly. I wanted the plank instead of the stick.)

plank... plank... pla-*remembers a scene woth Flint and the plank* YOU MONSTER