Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[MainJPW]

If he's in you'll be overjoyed, if he's not you're going to be devastated with such crazy overconfidence.

I mean... let me be devastated. I'm confident he'll get in. If he's not in then he's not in. It ain't a big deal.

And there's always DLC.

 

[DarkFalcon]

Something I found funny about Ganondorf is all of his smashes outside of maybe down smash seem slower than his prior smash attacks. Here's his sword, but at the cost of speed on a already slow character lol.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

So, I see a lot about Dry Bowser on here. Especially lately with the reveal of Echo Fighters.

However, a lot of people seem to agree that Dry Bowser could also just be a skin/costume.

My thing is...I can’t be the only person who wants this for a Bowser costume:

 

[Starbound]

View attachment 151789

Nobody should ever think a character deserves to be playable in Smash, nor should they think Sakurai should include someone in the sake of another's appearance being introduced. It doesn't make their chances any more possible than it was last time. If they get the Waluigi treatment, all you can do is live with it and move on. Don't be high off hype, that's the last thing you want to do.

I know what you're saying but...

Mario deserves to be playable in Smash.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Something I found funny about Ganondorf is all of his smashes outside of maybe down smash seem slower than his prior smash attacks. Here's his sword, but at the cost of speed on a already slow character lol.

tbf the Fsmash at least has better range qnd a tipper

 

[Idon]

So, I see a lot about Dry Bowser on here. Especially lately with the reveal of Echo Fighters.

However, a lot of people seem to agree that Dry Bowser could also just be a skin/costume.

My thing is...I can’t be the only person who wants this for a Bowser costume:

View attachment 151792

The entire Mario franchise has a ton of hidden gem costumes that they could use. I'm personally a fan of pimp bowser.

Also side note: I don't know if it's just me, but your entire sig's just made up of broken images.

 

[DarkFalcon]

tbf the Fsmash at least has better range qnd a tipper

The only thing I'm sad about is his up smash. Sure, he's got more range, but his BOOT was so good.

 

[N3ON]

It would be pretty smart on Nintendo's part to include someone like Isaac, Andy, Chibi-Robo, or some Rhythm Heaven rep, just to give their series a boost, and potentially bring it back. Unless they have no intention of continuing those series (which is probably the case with Advanced Wars, tbh)

At any given point fans are demanding new titles from an array of series already in Smash, and those cries ostensibly fall on if not deaf, unmotivated ears. This wouldn't be a tremendous paradigm shift. Like you mentioned, at least giving these precarious series some Smash spotlight would familiarize the IP with a larger audience, potentially imbuing it with increased profit (though that's not why I believe they should be added). It's happened before.

Real talk though I just think we're at a point where these series warrant attention more than many series bountifully represented as is. However my agenda doesn't entail business as priority, rather judiciously representing the entire catalogue of characters. And that's where Nintendo and I differ.

 

[MainJPW]

Chill. NiGHTS is already creepy enough as is

I mean... kinda. Naoto Oshima loves them sharp teeth.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Focusing on deservedness is, frankly, pointless, we're not Sakurai. It doesn't matter if we think a character should or shouldn't be added, all we can do is speculate as to whether they will or won't be added.

I think series like Rhythm Heaven, Golden Sun, Advance Wars, even Chibi-Robo deserve a single character before some series hit their third, fourth, fifth, etc. But that's not really how things are done. What should happen is subjective and out of my hands, what will happen I can at least try to anticipate.

I do think it's quite likely a Rhythm Heaven character gets in this time, since Chorus Men were all but confirmed to have been planned for Smash 4, and the intrigue brought to them and a Rhythm Heaven character in general after Gematsu leaked them I think would have led to them doing pretty well in the Ballot, especially if they were just cut from technical issues on the 3DS. It's not like Rhythm Heaven dropped in relevance nor popularity since Smash 4's project plan proposal, so I don't see any particular reason Sakurai wouldn't revisit the idea of a RH character unless the amount of newcomers is actually very limited this time and he's only focusing on the absolute top fan favorites.

 

[Zinith]

The entire Mario franchise has a ton of hidden gem costumes that they could use. I'm personally a fan of pimp bowser.

Also side note: I don't know if it's just me, but your entire sig's just made up of broken images.

Oh gee, does the franchise ever have limitless costume potential... *brings out a binder full of Yoshi costumes*

 

[Idon]

tbf the Fsmash at least has better range qnd a tipper

Well, looking at it, it seems like a copy of Ike's and as we all know...
It doesn't matter how much power, sweetspots, or range you have if your FSmash 1. can't come out in time 2. is extremely telegraphed 3. is punishable on dodge and block.

The only thing I'm sad about is his up smash. Sure, he's got more range, but his BOOT was so good.

That USmash was the saving grace of Ganondorf man. It's kinda slow to come out, but considering how unpunishable it was due to its low endlag it was a legitimate threat. Now it's an Ike USmash that's basically a hard read machine. Well, at the very least with the new airdodge mechanics, it might be better on a read.

 

[UltimateWario]

I mean... kinda. Naoto Oshima loves them sharp teeth.

I love NiGHTS' design, especially his classic one.

'Member that sequel that was made by Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic '06 Era Sonic Team? Goooood times.

 

[N3ON]

I do think it's quite likely a Rhythm Heaven character gets in this time, since Chorus Men were all but confirmed to have been planned for Smash 4, and the intrigue brought to them and a Rhythm Heaven character in general after Gematsu leaked them I think would have led to them doing pretty well in the Ballot, especially if they were just cut from technical issues on the 3DS. It's not like Rhythm Heaven dropped in relevance nor popularity since Smash 4's project plan proposal, so I don't see any particular reason Sakurai wouldn't revisit the idea of a RH character unless the amount of newcomers is actually very limited this time and he's only focusing on the absolute top fan favorites.

I do think a Rhythm Heaven character is a matter of when and not if, I just wonder when "when" will end up being. Hopefully this time around. And therein they are different than the other three, whose fate seems in flux at best, and whose presence on the Smash roster we can't do much except hope for at this point. My point was mostly that I'm partial to paying more deference to unrepresented yet nonetheless "worthy" series - which itself is also subjective - rather than the series with extensive existing coverage.

But I do hope Chorus Kids are the character we end up getting. They just sound so much more unique and distinct than a solo character like the other RH hopefuls.

 

[KMDP]

We all know they're going to bring back Advance Wars.
... With shipping.
And children.
It'll saaaaaave the franchise!

And petting, of course

Nintendo should just bring back every dead franchise with shipping and children and heavy petting, since clearly that's what people want. ****, get summa them dead Sega franchises in there, too. Jet Set Radio and NiGHTS with face touching and waifus? Sign me up to die.

Just turn Advance Wars into the Land Warfare version of Kantai Collection. That'll save the franchise.

...
...

Boy do I wish I was wrong about that.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

It's still so surreal to me that Snake is actually back. It still feels like a dream (SNAKE EATERRR)
To quote someone on Twitter.

LOOK AT THIS BEAUTIFUL SON OF A *****

BIG BOSS COULDN'T KILL HIM
THE PATRIOTS COULDN'T KILL HIM
****ING KONAMI COULDN'T KILL HIM

HE IS UNSTOPPABLE

 

[KingBroly]

Nintendo leaks are usually straight to the point, no matter what they are. So, while image puzzles are neat, they're not usually what people do.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

The entire Mario franchise has a ton of hidden gem costumes that they could use. I'm personally a fan of pimp bowser.

Also side note: I don't know if it's just me, but your entire sig's just made up of broken images.

I thought I had fixed that! Thanks for telling me.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

While it's very true that a lot of Smash characters share move animations, in most cases those shared animations/moves either make sense or look good. Wolf's Up-Smash may be a unique Up-Smash, but it looks really weird, especially alongside all of his other moves. The same can be said about his Neutral Air, but they already changed that.

And I'm not saying it was bad utility-wise, all I'm saying is that it really doesn't look good on him.

Furthermore, getting a new Up-Smash isn't the same as losing a good Up-Smash. They could always make a new Up-Smash just as good, if not better.

What "doesn't look good" or "looks weird" is subjective and I strongly disagree on Brawl Wolf's animations and moves looking bad/weird (except for neutral aerial and dash attack, they were **** moves but even then I would have liked to see them made better instead of being replaced with just another sex kick that doesn't look like it will add much value to Wolf's moveset and what looks to be a more standard dash attack). And replicating the utility of Wolf's u-smash, a u-smash that hits both sides simultaneously with adequate horizontal reach, with a new u-smash is not going to be replicable with anything Wolf can realistically do, that is a very rare property of u-smashes as is (in Smash 4 just Marcina and ROB have a u-smash with such functionality, and both have less horizontal reach than Wolf's did).

I just feel like they could do better with Wolf, animation-wise I mean. They've already given him a cool new Down Throw, nice visual effects on his moves, a new idle animation, a new dash attack, N-air, and more.

Wolf's down throw is still the same, just the animation is slightly different (and from what I seen I preferred the Brawl animation) while its trajectory appears to be different (which is sad for me and I hope it goes back to its very unique and very useful 0 degree trajectory it had in Brawl). And any "nice visual effects" is just gonna be the result of transitioning from Brawl to Ultimate, whereas everything was a lot blander in the former game.

It's kinda like Wario's transition from Brawl to Smash 4, but bigger. They cleaned up a lot of Wario's janky animations in the transition, and he's very obviously smoother by comparison. I feel like Wolf could also use this in his Brawl to Ultimate transition, since he had lots of janky animations in Brawl.

Just looking at the little footage we have of Wolf, it's clear how much he's been improved since Brawl, animation-wise at least. He just looks so clean, and I'm hoping they go further with that.

Don't know how you can compare Brawl Wolf's animations to Brawl's Wario's animations, a character who was intentionally designed to have choppy animations to replicate he WarioWare games. Again I'm going to disagree on Wolf's animations being "janky" and a problem in Brawl except for the two moves I mentioned prior.

 

[MainJPW]

I love NiGHTS' design, especially his classic one.

It's a great design. Uewkawa is very similar and designed characters very similar to NiGHTS for Sonic Party Shuffle.

Spoiler

And Oshima really likes sharp teeth. All his characters are blessed with this feature.

That last one is not a Sonic character. It's one of his new characters for some game.

'Member that sequel that was made by Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic '06 Era Sonic Team? Goooood times.

Yeah. Still waiting on SEGA to get out of their Sonic oversaturation phase and green light a third one. Let Iizuka be happy for once, he wants to make another NiGHTS and he clearly didn't like Forces.

 

[Wambo]

It's still so surreal to me that Snake is actually back. It still feels like a dream (SNAKE EATERRR)
To quote someone on Twitter.

LOOK AT THIS BEAUTIFUL SON OF A *****

BIG BOSS COULDN'T KILL HIM
THE PATRIOTS COULDN'T KILL HIM
****ING KONAMI COULDN'T KILL HIM

HE IS UNSTOPPABLE

Now watch Konami demand that he be pulled from the game and his cut is featured ten years from now in a "Did You Know Gaming" video about famous cut content.

Maximum o o f

 

[KMDP]

It's still so surreal to me that Snake is actually back. It still feels like a dream (SNAKE EATERRR)
To quote someone on Twitter.

LOOK AT THIS BEAUTIFUL SON OF A *****

BIG BOSS COULDN'T KILL HIM
THE PATRIOTS COULDN'T KILL HIM
****ING KONAMI COULDN'T KILL HIM

HE IS UNSTOPPABLE

...I feel this song is pertinent to our situation.

 

[Zerp]

Do you guys think the game will be well-balanced despite the massive roster? I think priority number one should be to make sure there's no God- or Trash-tiers. Obviously you will never have a roster that is 100% balanced unless there are only two characters, but I'd hope that nobody is too strong or too weak.

Late to respond but no, it's possible and I don't think it'd be that hard to really balance the game despite the roster size (it'd be hard for sure but nowhere near as hard as people assume it is), but this dev team has a horrendous track record, Smash 4 is literally the most balanced Smash game, and it's not well balanced, and never was well balanced overall, the gap between bottom tier and top tier was always huge, not as huge as in the previous games but it's still unreasonable. I want it to be extremely well balanced but I can't believe it and won't believe it until the game comes out and it actually turns out to be balanced.

 

[Hinata]

It's still so surreal to me that Snake is actually back. It still feels like a dream (SNAKE EATERRR)

Even as someone who didn't play that much Snake in Brawl, I feel the exact same way. I'm a huge fan of Metal Gear, and Snake's return really sealed the "day 1 purchase" deal for me.

 

[MainJPW]

Even as someone who didn't play that much Snake in Brawl, I feel the exact same way. I'm a huge fan of Metal Gear, and Snake's return really sealed the "day 1 purchase" deal for me.

I kinda want to play more of Metal Gear. The last one I played was Sons of Liberty on PS2.

 

[splat]

Nintendo leaks are usually straight to the point, no matter what they are. So, while image puzzles are neat, they're not usually what people do.

Would you consider Pokémon a Nintendo series? I mean, Sun and Moon had those image riddles, right?

 

[KMDP]

Late to respond but no, it's possible and I don't think it'd be that hard to really balance the game despite the roster size (it'd be hard for sure but nowhere near as hard as people assume it is), but this dev team has a horrendous track record, Smash 4 is literally the most balanced Smash game, and it's not well balanced, and never was well balanced overall, the gap between bottom tier and top tier was always huge, not as huge as in the previous games but it's still unreasonable. I want it to be extremely well balanced but I can't believe it and won't believe it until the game comes out and it actually turns out to be balanced.

The issue is that they aren't just balancing for 1v1 Items Off Competitive Play Stock Matches (the best equivalent to traditional fighting games). They're also balancing for a variety of other forms of play; including Timed Matches, Free-For-Alls (of many, many different match variations), Casual, Hardcore (Not the Same as Competitive), Items On (to three different levels of item frequency and a multitude of variation), Special Smash, Single Player Modes... Smash will probably never be perfectly balanced for one specific form of play, nor should it be.

 

[Will]

I kinda want to play more of Metal Gear. The last one I played was Sons of Liberty on PS2.

I wanted to play MGS but all I ever played was the original Metal Gear.

 

[KingBroly]

I do wish they didn't intentionally change some character animations simply to make them 'look better.' I think using the old games and referencing them for moves is really what can remind players of old games and draw new players to them.

Would you consider Pokémon a Nintendo series? I mean, Sun and Moon had those image riddles, right?

*scratches head

Not sure what you mean, exactly. For Let's Go Pikachu/Eevee, we had that off-screen leak which was true, then a logo and some blunt truths. But I'd consider it separate because Pokemon leaks happen every single time

 

[Koopaul]

People have been flooding us with "leaks" that are wildly different from one another. So you really shouldn't make a big deal about any of them unless it's a somewhat reliable source.

 

[L9999]

Do you guys think the game will be well-balanced despite the massive roster? I think priority number one should be to make sure there's no God- or Trash-tiers. Obviously you will never have a roster that is 100% balanced unless there are only two characters, but I'd hope that nobody is too strong or too weak.

I think everyone that lives in the "Smash 4 is balanced" bubble are forgetting how dumb were on release. Diddy was so broken they had to nerf him and Sheik was just as dumb as Diddy was in the Hoohah days. got nerf after nerf and her meta evolved to were we are now, and she was just as dumb as Diddy and Sheik were. I fully expect someone to make the meta centered on itself just as Diddy and Sheik in their glory days. Thinking it won't happen is just wishful thinking. The same goes for low tiers, . Someone has to be trash and they will be trash. My money is on the scrun trio and Bowser Jr.

There are days I have to remind myself that Bowser Jr. is indeed a character that made it in Smash 4. You'd think he'd stand out more with his moveset but he's just....there. Maybe it's because he's bad lol.

He would love less lag on Down B and a real grab.

 

[Zerp]

The issue is that they aren't just balancing for 1v1 Stock Matches Items Off Competitive Play. They're also balancing for a variety of other forms of play; including Timed Matches, Free-For-Alls, Casual, Hardcore (Not the Same as Competitive), Items On (to three different levels and a multitude of variation), Special Smash, Single Player Modes... Smash will probably never be perfectly balanced for one specific form of play, nor should it be.

And what's the problem with balancing the characters primarily for 1v1s and then killing off the strange and janky unintentional things we find they can do in 2v2/3v3s/free-for-alls? No casual playing with items is going to care about a minor imbalance, the competitive modes are what matter the most for it and the balance in most cases will mostly be dictated by what the cast can do in 1v1 interactions and 2v2 interactions, I don't see the problem with weighting the balance towards one of them, using that as the base and then making adjustments whenever something seems to be far too strong in another mode, 1v1s is what most people who care about the balance play, 2v2s second after that, therefore they should take priority. Special Smash is not going to alter the balance, neither is classic mode or something like that.

 

[BlondeLombax]

View attachment 151789

Nobody should ever think a character deserves to be playable in Smash, nor should they think Sakurai should include someone in the sake of another's appearance being introduced. It doesn't make their chances any more possible than it was last time. If they get the Waluigi treatment, all you can do is live with it and move on. Don't be high off hype, that's the last thing you want to do.

Is now a good time break this out?

On another note, who do you guys think are the most likely (currently revealed, if you spoil it for the others you'll be fed to a Snagglebeast) Dream Friends from Star Allies to possibly make it in as DLC (excluding B.W. Dee)? I have an order that seems reasonable...

1: Adeleine (& Ribbon, if possible)
2: Gooey
3: Marx
4: Dark Meta Knight (Could be an echo or semi of real MK)
5: Rick & the other animals
6: Daroach

 

[UltimateWario]

I kinda want to play more of Metal Gear. The last one I played was Sons of Liberty on PS2.

When I heard there was some sort of Konami collection coming to the Switch, I was really hoping it would be MGS. Always wanted to play them and never got the chance, didn't get a PS until 4.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

K. Rool can't even get into the Donkey Kong series at current, I still don't get why everyone's so determined he's too big to fail to get into Super Smash Bros.

Like seriously, dial it back a bit. If he's in you'll be overjoyed, if he's not you're going to be devastated with such crazy overconfidence.

I don't think K. Rool is a lock by any means, but this "he can't even get into a Donkey Kong game how is he going to get into Smash" thinking I see all the time to detract him is flawed and doesn't consider the context. He just missed two games after having been the main antagonist of every Donkey Kong game prior, from the developers (Retro) just wanting to try some new antagonists while main characters/antagonists miss a couple games all the time from developers wanting to try something new. Like with Ganondorf for example, a new Zelda game hasn't had the human form of Ganondorf since Twilight Princess despite there being many Zelda games since then, and there has a been few Zelda games that had no form of Ganon whatsoever. Then Donkey Kong himself wasn't playable in two straight DKC games (not being playable in both DKC 2 and 3). Just the long gap between Donkey Kong 64 and Donkey Kong Country Returns is making people think he is not being used more than he actually hasn't been (keep in mind that there was still Donkey Kong spinoffs being released in this period, where K. Rool was very much featured in them). as well as the lack of any Donkey Kong games in the past 10 years in general (with there having been only 2 games in the past 10 years).

Really the reason K. Rool hasn't had appeared in a long time isn't because he has been "retired" or "Nintendo doesn't want to use him anymore" or whatever, it's just Donkey Kong gets games a lot less frequently than it used to and so K. Rool just gets little opportunity to appear in them, so an absence or two is making him go on an abnormally extended period of not showing up in games.

 

[KMDP]

And what's the problem with balancing the characters primarily for 1v1s and then killing off the strange and janky unintentional things we find they can do in 2v2/3v3s/free-for-alls? No casual playing with items is going to care about a minor imbalance, the competitive modes are what matter the most for it and the balance in most cases will mostly be dictated by what the cast can do in 1v1 interactions and 2v2 interactions, I don't see the problem with weighting the balance towards one of them, using that as the base and then making adjustments whenever something seems to be far too strong in another mode, 1v1s is what most people who care about the balance play, 2v2s second after that, therefore they should take priority. Special Smash is not going to alter the balance, neither is classic mode or something like that.

...Okay.

You fully balance the game for 1v1. Great.

Only now something is over-powered in Free-for-alls and it'll hurt the fun for casuals. So you fix that.

Oh no, now 1v1 is unbalanced again, so you go back and adjust it.

But now the game is unbalanced in 2v2.

Fix fix fix.

You introduce a new character, and the cycle starts over again.

See the problem? You're playing whack-a-mole with balance, you'll never get it perfect; you can get close, but it'll never be all the way there.

 

[Zippo]

I know no one else wants and/or cares about this, but I would love if every version of Battlefield and Final Destination was brought into the game, each with their own unique music. Each one has a different feel and atmosphere from the other. Hearing the Fighting Polygon Team and Master Hand N64 themes remixed would legit bring me to tears.

 

[KMDP]

I know no one else wants and/or cares about this, but I would love if every version of Battlefield and Final Destination was brought into the game, each with their unique music. Each one has a different feel and atmostsphere from the other. Hearing the Fighting Polygon Team and Master Hand N64 themes remixed would legit bring me to tears.

How about there's technically only one Battlefield and Final Destination, but the music played on them changes the skin to the old versions.

 

[UltimateWario]

Only now something is over-powered in Free-for-alls and it'll hurt the fun for casuals. So you fix that.

Something would have to be pretty egregiously overpowered for it to become a noticeable detriment to casual matches. I get where you're coming from, but the argument should really be between 1v1 and 2v2.

 

[Will]

I know no one else wants and/or cares about this, but I would love if every version of Battlefield and Final Destination was brought into the game, each with their unique music. Each one has a different feel and atmostsphere from the other. Hearing the Fighting Polygon Team and Master Hand N64 themes remixed would legit bring me to tears.

All you need to do is bring back Metal Cavern.