Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Will]

Well unlike any other clone in Smash,fights and thinks the exact same way as due to being his exact copy (other than personality and smarts), so him fighting differently in any way wouldn’t really make much sense for him to be given

Did Dark Pit actually ever have Electroshock or Orbitars?

 

[Zinith]

I only really despise one character on the roster currently, but it's not really because I thought he took up a slot...

 

[Will]

I only really despise one character on the roster currently, but it's not really because I thought he took up a slot...

Spoiler

Please let it be Corrin

 

[Zinith]

Spoiler

Please let it be Corrin

It's not Corrin, I don't really care for him/her if that's any consolation...

 

[osby]

Dark Pit doesn't do anything original because he was added last second, that's it. I don't think there is really another reason for this. Probably Daisy will also be on the same boat once we see her fully.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

...I don't even like Kid Icarus (as in, I've sat and watched playthroughs of each installment, new and old) all that much and even I can say that's patently untrue, lol.

Smooth Criminal

This.

It makes sense for Dark Pit to be a clone of Pit in Smash. It doesn't mean he can't use other weapons, etc. In fact, the only thing he couldn't really do was use the 3 Sacred Treasures.

 

[Will]

Probably Daisy will also be on the same boat once we see her fully.

It's funny that "last second" was only a month ago apparently

 

[Idon]

This.

It makes sense for Dark Pit to be a clone of Pit in Smash. It doesn't mean he can't use other weapons, etc. In fact, the only thing he couldn't really do was use the 3 Sacred Treasures.

Honestly, they should've made 3ST a new cinematic (featuring the Hades killing cannon) and giveN DP the chariot. It is by far the coolest thing I remember him doing, more than doing a random charge shot with his staff.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Did Dark Pit actually ever have Electroshock or Orbitars?

Dark Pit can wield any weapon Pit can in Kid Icarus other than the Sacred Treasure weaponry.

 

[Will]

Dark Pit can wield any weapon Pit can in Kid Icarus other than the Sacred Treasure weaponry.

So that only proves my point further. Give that boy some Pandora Claws.

 

[osby]

It's funny that "last second" was only a month ago apparently

Oh, she was added a lot earlier than Dark Pit and Lucina during development. I'm just saying, considering the workload development team have in their hands, Daisy is likely to be in the same spot as Dark Pit: Too similar for competitive players to count them as different chatacters.

 

[KMDP]

It's funny that "last second" was only a month ago apparently

I imagine Daisy was the only planned Echo Fighter (well, the old prediction mainstays of Impa/Chrom/Ken could be another, but we'll have to wait and see), Sakurai could have a shortlist of possible last minute clones, but, with the likelihood of DLC this time, I actually doubt it.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Well unlike any other clone in Smash,fights and thinks the exact same way as due to being his exact copy (other than personality and smarts), so him fighting differently in any way wouldn’t really make much sense for him to be given

It's more like Sakurai doesn't see the effort of making Dark Pit more distinct worthwhile in lieu of putting those development resources towards other characters instead. Something that needs to be considered when talking about differentiating the Echoes, is the question of "Is it worth it?". Like most people are still going to dislike Dark Pit just from him being an edgy palette swap of Pit regardless of how different from Pit he is, and with Lucina, does she really have much potential to explore that would make a unique or even just a semi-clone version of her a more interesting inclusion to the roster than other potential characters?

The main point that gets them accepted by people who weren't already fans of them was that they took as little effort as possible and thus couldn't impact the inclusion of other characters.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

It just sorta grinds my gears that Sakurai could have bestowed any of the other weapons from the Kid Icarus reboot to and make him completely unique to his counterpart. Having him wield that badass staff, khatars/claw-weapons, etc. would have been so cool.

Daisy is likely to be in the same spot as Dark Pit: Too similar for competitive players to count them as different chatacters.

Eh, they have enough differences for the competitive folk to rank them. You'd be surprised at how anal retentive we (they) can be. Knockback trajectory on a move, flight path of a move, and even the lack of a sweetspot mechanic...that all factors in.

Smooth Criminal

 

[MainJPW]

It just sorta grinds my gears that Sakurai could have bestowed any of the other weapons from the Kid Icarus reboot to and make him completely unique to his counterpart. Having him wield that badass staff, khatars/claw-weapons, etc. would have been so cool.

Smooth Criminal

He could have done that, but then we probably wouldn't get Bowser Jr. or something.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Did Dark Pit actually ever have Electroshock or Orbitars?

Only if you make him use the weapons, cause he can use anything except for the Three/Great Sacred Treasures

I don't even like Kid Icarus (as in, I've sat and watched playthroughs of each installment, new and old) all that much and even I can say that's patently untrue, lol.

Only problem with that statement is that it is true. Both can use a variety of weapons, both are flightless (though DP gained the ability to fly by “borrowing” Pandora’s powers only to lose them), are angels, and are most comfortable with using a bow. Outside of their personality and coloring they are one and the same (they even have a special life connection that mostly affects Pittoo’s existence)

It's more like Sakurai doesn't see the effort of making Dark Pit more distinct worthwhile in lieu of putting those development resources towards other characters instead. Something that needs to be considered when talking about differentiating the Echoes, is the question of "Is it worth it?". Like most people are still going to dislike Dark Pit just from him being an edgy palette swap of Pit regardless of how different from Pit he is, and with Lucina, does she really have much potential to explore that would make a semi-clone version of her a more interesting inclusion to the roster than other potential characters?

What’s the point in differentiating a fighter who was made to be a copy/“true form” of someone else? During the development of Uprising, Sakurai could’ve made him fight differently but didn’t, so why make him different in Smash when he’s supposed to be a Pit clone

 

[Will]

It just sorta grinds my gears that Sakurai could have bestowed any of the other weapons from the Kid Icarus reboot to and make him completely unique to his counterpart. Having him wield that badass staff, khatars/claw-weapons, etc. would have been so cool.

[insert sakurbias comment here]

 

[Smooth Criminal]

TMNTSSB4

You do realize that personality can color a potential moveset, right? Dark Pit isn't like this mindless simulcrum of Pit like Dark Link is to Link.

He could have done that, but then we probably wouldn't get Bowser Jr. or something.

Oh, I know. It's just kinda sorta disappointing that Dark Pit and Lucina seem like they were afterthoughts meant to pad the roster, and not given a proper full-on treatment that we all know Sakurai can deliver and deliver very well. To be completely honest, I'm all for release days being pushed back for stuff like that, but I'm def not rabid about it. Deadlines do exist, after all, and they're completely understandable.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Will]

Oh, I know. It's just kinda sorta disappointing that Dark Pit and Lucina seem like they were afterthoughts meant to pad the roster, and not given a proper full-on treatment that we all know Sakurai can deliver and deliver very well.

Smooth Criminal

They were alternate costumes, so it makes sense why they feel that way.
Still did my boy Alph dirty though, that **** will never be forgiven.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Yeah, like I said, I get it. Just sucks that they weren't cool-ified and given the full monty, no?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Polan]

declone dark pit and his raging hatebase would never let us hear the end of it. in a perfect world with unlimited resources and time and a less cranky fanbase, dark pit could be decloned and made his own unique character. we do not live in a perfect world.

 

[Blargg888]

Make him more comparable to Wolf and not so much Lucina.

Honestly, I'd argue that Dark Pit isn't even comparable to Lucina. Lucina's change is that her sword doesn't have a tipper like Marth's, and due to the fact that Lucina uses her sword in literally all of her moves, this means that every move Lucina has (sans throws) works differently from Marth.

Dark Pit on the other hand has a different FS, different angled, electric version of Pit's side b, less control over his arrows, and more knockback on his Ftilt. Otherwise, everything Other move Dark Pit has is the same as Pit.

TL;DR Lucina has one change that affects all of her moves, whereas Dark Pit has 4 changes that only affect 4 moves.

 

[KMDP]

Something that needs to be considered when talking about differentiating the Echoes, is the question of "Is it worth it?"

"Is it worth it?" is something that should also be considered about the creation of Echo Fighters.

Like, yes, you get Impa or Shadow or whoever, but once they're an Echo Fighter, like Ganondorf you've effectively doomed them to forever be a clone of the character they're copying, no matter how unique they could be in theory (and how many small alterations they get in future games).

People are still frustrated by the fact that Ganondorf and Dark Pit aren't (more) unique. Just because those characters have that "taint" doesn't mean it's justified to force that on other characters. That's getting into "an eye for an eye" territory.

Can Impa and Shadow be Echoes? Yes. Can they also be unique? Also yes. Should they be made Echoes just to make them Echoes to fill some arbitrary quota? Hell. No.

Lucina and Daisy have good reasons to be made (and kept as) Echoes, Lucina is defined by the fact she pretended to be Marth (and don't pretend that's not true), Daisy is (well, was) almost interchangeable with Peach (to the point that the Mario Bros. movie got them mixed up).

Dark Pit is more grey; he could, theoretically, use different weapons, but Dark Pit is also literally a clone of Pit, sharing the same memories, core personality, fighting style, and potential weapon arsenal.

The only remaining Echo Fighter I can fully get behind is Ken Masters, and that's only because he's a clone fighter of Ryu in Street Fighter.

Sorry for going on a rant there, but everyone going gaga for Echo Characters grinds my gears just a bit, and I needed to get this off my chest.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

What’s the point in differentiating a fighter who was made to be a copy/“true form” of someone else? During the development of Uprising, Sakurai could’ve made him fight differently but didn’t, so why make him different in Smash when he’s supposed to be a Pit clone

All I'm saying with clones, why they are the way they are is 90% because of development reasons, rather than having to do with canon/lore. Dark Pit being such a clone of Pit is because of development convenience and deciding what's worth allocating developmental resources into, not because Dark Pit is a copy canon-wise.

 

[DittoMaster6]

Honestly, I'd argue that Dark Pit isn't even comparable to Lucina. Lucina's change is that her sword doesn't have a tipper like Marth's, and due to the fact that Lucina uses her sword in literally all of her moves, this means that every move Lucina has (sans throws) works differently from Marth.

Dark Pit on the other hand has a different FS, different angled, electric version of Pit's side b, less control over his arrows, and more knockback on his Ftilt. Otherwise, everything Other move Dark Pit has is the same as Pit.

TL;DR Lucina has one change that affects all of her moves, whereas Dark Pit has 4 changes that only affect 4 moves.

Honestly, this above all else is my biggest problem with Dark Pit, not the fact that he's a clone. At least with Lucina, it at least feels like I'm playing as a different character to some extent, but Dark Pit has almost absolutely nothing else distinguishing him, and it's kinda sad, because literally every other clone in the series gets better treatment than this.

 

[osby]

All I'm saying with clones, why they are the way they are is 90% because of development reasons, rather than having to do with canon/lore. Dark Pit being such a clone of Pit is because of development convenience and deciding what's worth allocating developmental resources into, not because Dark Pit is a copy canon-wise.

I agree. I doubt Sakurai couldn't give Dark Pit his own properties, given enough time.

 

[BlondeLombax]

declone dark pit and his raging hatebase would never let us hear the end of it. in a perfect world with unlimited resources and time and a less cranky fanbase, dark pit could be decloned and made his own unique character. we do not live in a perfect world.

I'd be perfectly cool with a decloned Pittoo. More than okay, in fact. There's so many weapons to choose from that he could use: cannons, staffs, clubs...
So yeah, not all of us would go on a rampage. Believe me, the only ones who would would be those who think he's legitimately edgy as all peck, not realizing that he's meant to be an exaggeration of that archetype.

 

[Idon]

I agree. I doubt Sakurai couldn't give Dark Pit his own properties, given enough time.

Given enough time, I think Sakurai is the type of guy who would rather try to shove in more dumb singleplayer minigames no one would play, ahahahaha.

But no seriously, he probably would've worked on something else and those two still would've been promoted alternate costumes.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

TMNTSSB4
You do realize that personality can color a potential moveset, right? Dark Pit isn't like this mindless simulcrum of Pit like Dark Link is to Link.

Never said he was like a mindless anything, but even with his own personality he chooses to fight the same way as Pit (hence the Silver Bow being his most used weapon in Uprising, moreso than the one weapon named after him)

From Divinipedia (a wiki that’s mentioned in the game):“Dark Pit, true to his state as a clone, has a very similar fighting style to Pit. While he proves to be more aggressive, he can dodge, melee, shoot, and use a variety of weaponry like his rival”

“Silver Bow: Used during his boss fight in Chapter 6, his mini-boss fight in Chapter 13, and the land battle section in Chapter 21. This is his most used weapon.”

All I'm saying with clones, why they are the way they are is 90% because of development reasons, rather than having to do with canon/lore. Dark Pit being such a clone of Pit is because of development convenience and deciding what's worth allocating developmental resources into, not because Dark Pit is a copy canon-wise.

Thing is, he’s such a clone of Pit because of his canon/lore (hell DP was just gonna be an alt before Sakurai didn’t like him using the TST). Not much of a shock considering Sakurai made Smash 4 (and probably Ultimate) be an epilogue of sorts to Uprising.

 

[osby]

I'd be perfectly cool with a decloned Pittoo. More than okay, in fact. There's so many weapons to choose from that he could use: cannons, staffs, clubs...
So yeah, not all of us would go on a rampage. Believe me, the only ones who would would be those who think he's legitimately edgy as all peck, not realizing that he's meant to be an exaggeration of that archetype.

Yep, and his exaggarated personality makes sense, considering how the game frames him as a Shadow archetype of Pit. He's literally the supressed mean thoughts of Pit, of course he will be overly "edgy".

concluding fanboy rant

 

[Will]

I agree. I doubt Sakurai couldn't give Dark Pit his own properties, given enough time.

Took him 17 years to give Ganondorf a sword to use in battle.
I'd say give it 25 years before elderly Sakurai considers doing it.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

very similar fighting style to Pit

While he proves to be more aggressive

Pretty much gonna ZERO IN on these statements RIGHT HERE.

Smooth Criminal

 

[KMDP]

For the record, while I don't personally mind Dark Pit being an Echo of Pit, that doesn't mean I would turn down the potential for a more unique Dark Pit just to keep him an Echo.

I know this should be an obvious thing, but I really should say it just in case.

 

[Blargg888]

Honestly, this above all else is my biggest problem with Dark Pit, not the fact that he's a clone. At least with Lucina, it at least feels like I'm playing as a different character to some extent, but Dark Pit has almost absolutely nothing else distinguishing him, and it's kinda sad, because literally every other clone in the series gets better treatment than this.

Given this, I'm wondering if Daisy will be more of a Lucina, or more of a Dark Pit. I hope we learn what her differences are before the game comes out. I'm really curious.

 

[osby]

Given this, I'm wondering if Daisy will be more of a Lucina, or more of a Dark Pit. I hope we learn what her differences are before the game comes out. I'm really curious.

Probably more like Dark Pit. They don't have an uniform fighting tool like Lucina that effects all of their hitboxes.

 

[KMDP]

Pretty much gonna ZERO IN on these statements RIGHT HERE.

Smooth Criminal

Those two statements by TMNTSSB4 aren't mutually exclusive, you know. You can fight similarly and be more aggressive at the same time, it's not as much a contradiction in terms as you seem to think it is.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

25 years

Pretty much gonna ZERO IN on these statements RIGHT HERE.
Smooth Criminal

Those two statements by TMNTSSB4 aren't mutually exclusive, you know. You can fight similarly and be more aggressive at the same time, it's not as much a contradiction in terms as you seem to think it is.

This

 

[papagenos]

"Is it worth it?" is something that should also be considered about the creation of Echo Fighters.

Like, yes, you get Impa or Shadow or whoever, but once they're an Echo Fighter, like Ganondorf you've effectively doomed them to forever be a clone of the character they're copying, no matter how unique they could be in theory (and how many small alterations they get in future games).

People are still frustrated by the fact that Ganondorf and Dark Pit aren't (more) unique. Just because those characters have that "taint" doesn't mean it's justified to force that on other characters. That's getting into "an eye for an eye" territory.

Can Impa and Shadow be Echoes? Yes. Can they also be unique? Also yes. Should they be made Echoes just to make them Echoes to fill some arbitrary quota? Hell. No.

Lucina and Daisy have good reasons to be made (and kept as) Echoes, Lucina is defined by the fact she pretended to be Marth (and don't pretend that's not true), Daisy is (well, was) almost interchangeable with Peach (to the point that the Mario Bros. movie got them mixed up).

Dark Pit is more grey; he could, theoretically, use different weapons, but Dark Pit is also literally a clone of Pit, sharing the same memories, core personality, fighting style, and potential weapon arsenal.

The only remaining Echo Fighter I can fully get behind is Ken Masters, and that's only because he's a clone fighter of Ryu in Street Fighter.

Sorry for going on a rant there, but everyone going gaga for Echo Characters grinds my gears just a bit, and I needed to get this off my chest.

the only other echo im banking on is chrom and thats ONLY because he was called a "carbon copy" of Ike already. He also got a Mii costume and is confirmed to have almost gotten in last time and sakurai really teased his fan base, letting him in as an echo would almost feel like an overdue apology.

and im someone who doesnt really want anymore fire emblem reps this next game i just honestly think hes the other likely echo.

right behind him is Impa, cause sheik has a new final smash that doesnt directly apply to zelda but rather the ninja tribe itself.

and then theres like you said, ken, who is a perfect echo fighter but im not counting on third parties getting echos at all, i just think it diminishes the honorary position third parties have as "guests" in smash. When i hear most people guessing at shadow as the most likely echo character i dont get it... like you said echos kind of ruin that characters chance at having the moveset they SHOULD have if they have potential beyond an echo and shadow being third party AND someone who should have their own move set... i just dont see it happening.

then dark samus i hear a lot too but once again i dont think dark samus should be a samus echo and should differentiate herself with a different moveset. On top of that echos should really differentiate themselves with their unique personalities different from their counter part character and thats difficult to do with dark samus WITHOUT giving her her own moveset and then shes no longer an echo and then no longer a character i think sakurai would find the time to add (we just got ridley after all, another metroid villain? doesnt seem like high priority). Keep in mind Alph isnt an echo but still a costume cause theres nothing you could do as an echo of olimar to really give him a different personality (taunts, idle stance, subtle movements etc...) same goes for dark samus i dont think you can portray that character without a unique moveset.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Those two statements by TMNTSSB4 aren't mutually exclusive, you know. You can fight similarly and be more aggressive at the same time, it's not as much a contradiction in terms as you seem to think it is.

I'm arguing that the potential is there, and not nonexistent. That's all.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Patriot Duck]

Hey, so it seems like you can cancel your taunts early in this game. You know what that means, right?

You can cancel your taunt...into a different taunt.

The taunt combo meta is almost upon us. Ness's "okey>okey>bat salute" combo is the future of salt.