Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Thirdkoopa]

**** that might as well be anyone who wasn't made pre-Wii U would be holding on to.

Depending on the character, there's more to them than that. Just because support dwindles away for a character (unless they're a flavor of the week) doesn't mean that developers forget, but holding the test of time helps.

I know people rat on Fire Emblem for having an ungodly amount of characters, but at least 1. most of them showcase different games and 2. the series has been on-going for a long time as part of Nintendo's history.

Really the only complaint I have about that is they just need to localize Roy's game already

...

so when are they gonna finally reveal isaac

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It's not even the prospect of them not having a single new move that I dislike, it's that they don't seem to have many new properties to make up for it. Most of the existing clones in the series have at least had a different playstyle than their originals to an extent, so you can't do the exact same thing with them as you would the originals. With echo fighters, until we receive more comprehensive differences that Daisy has, it seems like they're content to just add Dark Pit level differences and call it a day, which is somewhat disappointing.

That I agree with. I want some tangible differences to make the playstyle more unique. Lucina is a good one because the lack of a tipper changes her overall design, so you can't just deploy the exact same strategy as Marth. Mind you, the difference isn't huge by any means.

Dark Pit has almost zero differences. Just a few stat changes would be enough, really. Like, nothing huge. Keep it simple, as Echoes are meant to be, but it could be a little more.

 

[Hinata]

Pit and Dark Pit are so similar, they share the same spot on the tier list. For those of you not in the know, that hasn't happened before with clones. Ever. In fact, it hasn't happened at all, period. Even Lucina has a different tier placement than Marth.

 

[Danpal65]

Pit and Dark Pit are so similar, they share the same spot on the tier list. For those of you not in the know, that hasn't happened before with clones. Ever. In fact, it hasn't happened at all, period. Even Lucina has a different tier placement than Marth.

Dark Pit is definitely the samiest of the clones/echoes

 

[Blargg888]

If they can't even have one new move why bother at all?

Different playstyle.
The point of echo characters from what I can tell, is being able to play with the same character's moveset but differently. So far, this only applies to Lucina, since Dark Pit is too similar to be any different. We have yet to see how different Daisy will be, so there's no word on that yet.

 

[NintenRob]

From #StarFox Adventures, Krystal comes to Super #SmashBrosUltimate as an Assist Trophy. In addition to attacking with her staff, she also uses an Ice Blast to freeze fighters. pic.twitter.com/IjiOewdLo9

— Nintendo Versus (@NintendoVS) July 4, 2018

I assume this stage is Lylat Cruise but can anyone double check to make sure?

 

[PSIGuy]

Maybe Rex and Pyra could inherit the tag team mechanic Diddy and Dixie would have had in Brawl had Sakurai kept that idea. Both are on the field, but only one is interactable at a time (sort of like the Ice Climbers, but with elements of Pokémon Trainer)
Dunno how... good that is for XB2 Canon Purposes, though.

Pyra doesn't really fight on her own for extended periods of time. She does fight, but only to use Blade Specials (sort of like Limit Breaks which are built up by Rex by landing Arts). So it'd be like Diddy doing most of the fighting but Dixie popping in to use a Smash or Special attack. The other thing is Art cancelling; in XB2 you can go from finishing one attack to starting a higher level attack for bonus damage and to build up Blade specials faster. Which is like if Dixie jumped in with a Smash attack just as Diddy finished a different attack.

 

[Will]

Dark Pit is definitely the samiest of the clones/echoes

Maybe because he's a literal clone

 

[DittoMaster6]

Maybe because he's a literal clone

Dr. Mario is just flat out Mario in a doctor's outfit he's not as samey as Dark Pit

 

[Spaceless]

It's not even the prospect of them not having a single new move that I dislike, it's that they don't seem to have many new properties to make up for it. Most of the existing clones in the series have at least had a different playstyle than their originals to an extent, so you can't do the exact same thing with them as you would the originals. With echo fighters, until we receive more comprehensive differences that Daisy has, it seems like they're content to just add Dark Pit level differences and call it a day, which is somewhat disappointing.

As long as These new properties add a different playstyle I'm fine with it but until now Melee Falco is the only clone with no real new moves just different properties that I found worth adding.

Different playstyle.
The point of echo characters from what I can tell, is being able to play with the same character's moveset but differently. So far, this only applies to Lucina, since Dark Pit is too similar to be any different. We have yet to see how different Daisy will be, so there's no word on that yet.

That's true but I don't think we will get an echo who is different enough that they play differently.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

That I agree with. I want some tangible differences to make the playstyle more unique. Lucina is a good one because the lack of a tipper changes her overall design, so you can't just deploy the exact same strategy as Marth. Mind you, the difference isn't huge by any means.

Dark Pit has almost zero differences. Just a few stat changes would be enough, really. Like, nothing huge. Keep it simple, as Echoes are meant to be, but it could be a little more.

????? Marth and Lucina has the same exact strategy. To maximize their reach /disjoints; Marth just get more reward for employing the same strategy and if not more combos than Lucina due to the fact his hits without tippers has the opponent closer to him.. This is why Roy design is flawed and hence why he's much lower in viability. He has a disjoint but GETS PUNISHED for using his disjoint, so now he has to get closer to his opponent which is counter-intuitive to a swordie. All swordies inherently wants to maximize their range to out-space their opponent. Roy wants to do the exactly opposite..

 

[Will]

Dr. Mario is just flat out Mario in a doctor's outfit he's not as samey as Dark Pit

Mario and Dr. Mario are the same person
Dark Pit is an actual clone

I think the Mario/Dr. Mario thing is just one of those "parallel universe dont touch each other or you'll cause a time paradox" thing or something, who knows.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Dr. Mario being the same person doesn't matter. A clone has the same physical attributes in many cases. An alternate version of one self may have differences if they led a different life. Dr. Mario is a doctor. He's not out adventuring. You could use that logic if you wanted. I mean, Paper Mario and Mario are different people as confirmed by Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam. So it's honestly a thing that shows up.

Also, Zero Suit Samus is a perfect example of where being the same person is irrelevant. That doesn't mean you will fight the same way. Different weapons, different strategies, different abilities, etc.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

It's not even the prospect of them not having a single new move that I dislike, it's that they don't seem to have many new properties to make up for it. Most of the existing clones in the series have at least had a different playstyle than their originals to an extent, so you can't do the exact same thing with them as you would the originals. With echo fighters, until we receive more comprehensive differences that Daisy has, it seems like they're content to just add Dark Pit level differences and call it a day, which is somewhat disappointing.

From the looks of it, the point of Echoes isn't to add extra playable characters to the roster that stand on their own like the Melee clones were, but rather to add characters as alts to existing characters while retaining the ability to add some minor gameplay/aesthetic differences and some different animations to them to give them some more flavor.

In essence, they're glorified alts, and trying to look at them as legitimate characters is looking at them from the wrong angle.

 

[DittoMaster6]

Mario and Dr. Mario are the same person
Dark Pit is an actual clone

I think the Mario/Dr. Mario thing is just one of those "parallel universe dont touch each other or you'll cause a time paradox" thing or something, who knows.

Oh I wasn't questioning why it exists, I was initially under the assumption that you were using Dark Pit being an in-universe clone to justify having virtually no changes so I used Dr. Mario as a counterexample but then I remembered that you didn't say that and it was probably just me being a bad person as always

So uh sorry for being a bad person

 

[Zinith]

Echoes exist to save time on development so they're here to stay whether you like them or not

Spoiler

*Desperately wants Boshi to get in as an Echo*

 

[Blargg888]

Echoes exist to save time on development so they're here to stay whether you like them or not

Spoiler

*Desperately wants Boshi to get in as an Echo*

I don't think it's to save time, it's if there's extra time. At least, in DP and Lucina's case. We don't know when Daisy was added to Ultimate, but I'd bet on it being in the later stages of development.

 

[DittoMaster6]

From the looks of it, the point of Echoes isn't to add extra playable characters to the roster that stand on their own like the Melee clones were, but rather to add characters as alts to existing characters while retaining the ability to add some minor gameplay/aesthetic differences and some different animations to them to give them some more flavor.

In essence, they're glorified alts, and trying to look at them as legitimate characters is looking at them from the wrong angle.

That makes sense, but it's kind of disappointing, if that's the case. If they're all intended to be Dark Pit-esque clones like what that implies, then part of me honestly would rather have them as alts. The lack of any effort to make a new playstyle when there's lots of potential for one with movesets characters already have is kinda sad.

 

[KMDP]

I don't think it's to save time, it's if there's extra time. At least, in DP and Lucina's case. We don't know when Daisy was added to Ultimate, but I'd bet on it being in the later stages of development.

Plus, with the advent of DLC, they could use the time they would have used making Echoes late in development to get a headstart on DLC Characters. Sakurai was reticent to utilize DLC in the last game, but eventually did, currently there is no reason to suspect that he would have changed his mind for this game, especially after Smash 4's DLC's success.

I still think Daisy was (one of) the only planned Echo(es) beside Pittoo and Lucina.

 

[Makai Wars]

That makes sense, but it's kind of disappointing, if that's the case. If they're all intended to be Dark Pit-esque clones like what that implies, then part of me honestly would rather have them as alts. The lack of any effort to make a new playstyle when there's lots of potential for one with movesets characters already have is kinda sad.

They're basically glorified alts though. The difference between the characters is so minuscule that you're really just playing a fancy alt skin with special voice lines and more pallets.

 

[Spaceless]

I still think Daisy was (one of) the only planned Echo(es) beside Pittoo and Lucina.

Pitto. Never heard that one but I'm gonna use it from now on. Sadly fitting for him

 

[StormC]

From the looks of it, the point of Echoes isn't to add extra playable characters to the roster that stand on their own like the Melee clones were, but rather to add characters as alts to existing characters while retaining the ability to add some minor gameplay/aesthetic differences and some different animations to them to give them some more flavor.

In essence, they're glorified alts, and trying to look at them as legitimate characters is looking at them from the wrong angle.

Even Sakurai sees it this way by not giving them numbers.

Echo Fighters are a pretty brilliant way to market "clone" characters. Have them front and center with special designations that they aren't "whole" fighters. That way, presumably when Daisy isn't one of the last unlockable fighters, people aren't confused and outraged. They can save the big reveals for last.

Pitto. Never heard that one but I'm gonna use it from now on. Sadly fitting for him

A lot of the cast calls him Pittoo in Uprising.

 

[Deleted member]

Pitto. Never heard that one but I'm gonna use it from now on. Sadly fitting for him

That was his nickname in Uprising. They also used in his Palutena's Guidance iirc

 

[Danpal65]

Pitto. Never heard that one but I'm gonna use it from now on. Sadly fitting for him

It's what Pit refers to him as in Uprising

Edit: Looks like my post is an echo fighter of Lampy's. How apt.

 

[KMDP]

Pitto. Never heard that one but I'm gonna use it from now on. Sadly fitting for him

"Pittoo" is the in-universe nickname for him (I can't remember right now if it was Palutena or Hades who gave it to him).

Naturally, he dislikes it. XD

 

[Omega Tyrant]

That makes sense, but it's kind of disappointing, if that's the case. If they're all intended to be Dark Pit-esque clones like what that implies, then part of me honestly would rather have them as alts.

If you make them just regular alts, you're severely limited in your ability to make the character exhibit their own personality, as you can't give them any gameplay differences whatsoever, you wouldn't even be able to give them their own taunts.

The lack of any effort to make a new playstyle when there's lots of potential for one with movesets characters already have is kinda sad.

They're not meant to be individual characters, they're intended as glorified alts, and developmental resources are not infinite, not everyone can be made into a unique character. You make Dark Pit into a unique character, then another character can no longer be on the roster (or you cut content elsewhere). Those are decisions you have to make when deciding the roster, and if you don't think Dark Pit merits a roster spot as a full-fledged character, then the only option left for him is to be an alt-costume of Pit, whereas Echoes allow you to give those slight differences so Dark Pit's personality as his own character gets to shine through and you get to feel like you're actually playing the character.

 

[PSIGuy]

Dark Pit's Electroshock Arm had apparently already been modelled as part of him when he was a costume, so even less of him was original than you'd think. I guess that's why Alph didn't get in; they'd have to model new Pikmin and do more work.

 

[Zinith]

*Cue Pittoo post #83*

But anyways that's the reason I don't hate Dark Pit honestly is because of that nickname!!!

 

[osby]

That makes sense, but it's kind of disappointing, if that's the case. If they're all intended to be Dark Pit-esque clones like what that implies, then part of me honestly would rather have them as alts. The lack of any effort to make a new playstyle when there's lots of potential for one with movesets characters already have is kinda sad.

Alternative was them getting Peach, Marth and Pit's victory animations and taunts so I'm content. Like, let's not forget Alph.

 

[Deleted member]

It's what Pit refers to him as in Uprising

Edit: Looks like my post is an echo fighter of Lampy's. How apt.

Looks like my wikia username fits me

was that foreshadowing?

 

[Blargg888]

Plus, with the advent of DLC, they could use the time they would have used making Echoes late in development to get a headstart on DLC Characters. Sakurai was reticent to utilize DLC in the last game, but eventually did, currently there is no reason to suspect that he would have changed his mind for this game, especially after Smash 4's DLC's success.

I still think Daisy was (one of) the only planned Echo(es) beside Pittoo and Lucina.

That's true, but I don't think Sakurai likes planning Dlc during development. And before anyone cites Mewtwo, remember that Smash 3ds had already been released by that point.

Plus, it's been mentioned before that echoes take up a fraction of the time that it takes to create one character, so even if they did get a head start, it probably wouldn't be much of one.

 

[Deleted member]

Also I wish Alph was promoted. Frankly i'd like the Koopalings to be the only characters to appear as costumes.

 

[osby]

Also I wish Alph was promoted. Frankly i'd like the Koopalings to be the only characters to appear as costumes.

Man, me too but I get it. Even not counting he doesn't really have a big fan support, there aren't much way to show his personality.

Read: Pikmin are a pain to program.

If they do it, awesome but I'm okay with him only being a costume for now.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The thing about the Captains is they aren't the real focus of it. It's "Pikmin & Captain" in the Japanese version. The English version is misleading. So it makes sense why Alph is solely an alt in this case. It'd be nice to get more Captain alts at least.

 

[Deleted member]

Man, me too but I get it. Even not counting he doesn't really have a big fan support, there aren't much way to show his personality.

Read: Pikmin are a pain to program.

If they do it, awesome but I'm okay with him only being a costume for now.

Well then, that settles it. I'm gonna start campaigning for him after the DLC season ends. #FreeAlph

 

[KMDP]

Have them front and center with special designations that they aren't "whole" fighters. That way, presumably when Daisy isn't one of the last unlockable fighters, people aren't confused and outraged. They can save the big reveals for last.

Another reason why I think Daisy might be the only new Echo Fighter!

Okay, to summarise, going wild with Echo Fighters is a net negative because:

1. You (permanently) bar the Character from having a fully unique moveset.
2. The ε designation might not wholly work for the character (looking at you, Dark Samus, Dixie Kong and Shadow)
3. If made at the very end of development, that time can be better used getting started on DLC

 

[Jetsurge]

Today's Item

Krystal Assist Trophy
In addition to attacking with her staff, Krystal also uses Ice Blast to freeze fighters. Don't underestimate her!

 

[Sabrewulf238]

I was thinking the other day. Is it possible the only reason they went out of their way to make echo fighters a thing is because they intend to order the character select screen by the order in which unique characters were introduced?

So it's basically their way of officially telling us why Dark Pit is going to be next to Pit in the Brawl section.

 

[Blargg888]

Another reason why I think Daisy might be the only new Echo Fighter!

Okay, to summarise, going wild with Echo Fighters is a net negative because:

1. You (permanently) bar the Character from having a fully unique moveset.
2. The ε designation might not wholly work for the character (looking at you, Dark Samus, Dixie Kong and Shadow)
3. If made at the very end of development, that time can be better used getting started on DLC.

One thing I haven't seen anyone mention yet is how getting too many echoes would actually give those people who pretend that clones steal roster spots an actual, reasonable argument.

We've been told that it takes only a fraction of the time to add echoes than it does standard characters, and the reason people don't get mad about that is because it's been made clear that echoes don't take the place of another character.

However, if we were to get a crazy amount of echoes like people are saying we are, then people would actually be justified in complaining about the clones stealing development time that could've gone to another character. Since we already have 3 echoes, I'm betting that we'll get somewhere between 0-2 more. No more than that.

 

[KMDP]

That's true, but I don't think Sakurai likes planning Dlc during development. And before anyone cites Mewtwo, remember that Smash 3ds had already been released by that point.

Plus, it's been mentioned before that echoes take up a fraction of the time that it takes to create one character, so even if they did get a head start, it probably wouldn't be much of one.

I believe that fraction is approximately 1/6th of the time. So if it takes 6 months to make a full fighter, then it would take one month to make an Echo.

Let's say they have one month before the game goes gold and Sakurai has the choice of making one Echo Fighter, or releasing a completely new Fighter 5 months after the game's release.

Which would you want as the consumer?