Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Zinith]

Today's Item

Krystal Assist Trophy
In addition to attacking with her staff, Krystal also uses Ice Blast to freeze fighters. Don't underestimate her!

View attachment 151611

"Today's--"

Fighter: 05 Yoshi?!!!

"--Item: Krystal Assist Trophy"

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF---

 

[Headcrab Jackalope]

Dark Pit's Electroshock Arm had apparently already been modelled as part of him when he was a costume, so even less of him was original than you'd think. I guess that's why Alph didn't get in; they'd have to model new Pikmin and do more work.

I mean they had a Rock Pikmin model that would have worked just fine as a replacement for Purple Pikmin. The poor guy is the only type not included in Olimar's moveset.

I'm still pretty sad about Alph's situation. I'm used to Pikmin being one of the more neglected franchises in Smash, but seeing Alph, one of the most logical echo fighters, still stuck as a costume is pretty disappointing. If he and Olimar can't be separated, I would at least like to see them have their voices from Pikmin 3 to differentiate them a bit.

 

[osby]

The thing about the Captains is they aren't the real focus of it. It's "Pikmin & Captain" in the Japanese version. The English version is misleading. So it makes sense why Alph is solely an alt in this case. It'd be nice to get more Captain alts at least.

By the way I'm still slightly salty because English localization omits "Pikmin&" part from his name.

 

[Jetsurge]

"Today's--"

Fighter: 05 Yoshi?!!!

"--Item: Krystal Assist Trophy"

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF---

Today's fighter is #22: Young Link. He's back after 17 years! Young Link is faster than Link but he's also lighter, making him easier to launch.

 

[Zeox]

Young Link was fighter of the day:

Spoiler

Red dots are the days that there was a fighter of the day

It almost looks like this week there will be 4 fighters of the day instead of 3.

 

[KMDP]

Young Link was fighter of the day:

Spoiler

Red dots are the days that there was a fighter of the day
View attachment 151613

It almost looks like this week there will be 4 fighters of the day instead of 3.

I almost feel like they're just pulling a random few topics out of a hat each day. XD

 

[Blargg888]

I believe that fraction is approximately 1/6th of the time. So if it takes 6 months to make a full fighter, then it would take one month to make an Echo.

Let's say they have one month before the game goes gold and Sakurai has the choice of making one Echo Fighter, or releasing a completely new Fighter 5 months after the game's release.

Which would you want as the consumer?

I mean, sure, I'd want the new fighter, but do we have confirmation that echoes are added in that late? After all, there's more to making the character than just making the literal character.

You also need to make the character's trophy, FS trophy, give them an unlock method, create data for them in the stats and all the mini games, make their render, etc and all that.

I feel like echoes aren't literally added late into overall development, but rather, late into character development. It's also notable that Lucina was featured prominently in Robin's trailer, which was given to us two months before release. I feel like echoes would probably be added at a point in development where it's early enough to expand the plan to add them, but too early to start working on DLC characters.

I dunno, I could be completely wrong about this, but that's how I see it anyway.

 

[Danpal65]

I almost feel like they're just pulling a random few topics out of a hat each day. XD

Almost like we're looking for patterns when there probably aren't any. That's gotta be something new for the Smash community, right?

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Another reason why I think Daisy might be the only new Echo Fighter!

Okay, to summarise, going wild with Echo Fighters is a net negative because:

1. You (permanently) bar the Character from having a fully unique moveset.
2. The ε designation might not wholly work for the character (looking at you, Dark Samus, Dixie Kong and Shadow)
3. If made at the very end of development, that time can be better used getting started on DLC.

I'm pretty sure there will be a couple more, not a whole lot like some people think, since they're not intended to be actual characters to bolster the roster, but there are certainly some other characters that don't make the roster but could work as alts and thus become Echoes. As for which characters they are, they'll be those that wouldn't be able to make the roster on their own merits over other options and also probably wouldn't be worthwhile characters in the foreseeable future. Now which characters those could be is heavily debateable and not everyone will agree to which; I for example don't think Daisy would have ever been a worthwhile addition as an actual character until Sakurai was literally scraping the bottom of the barrel for new characters, but Daisy has a bunch of infamously vocal supporters that insisted she should totally be in as a full-fledged unique character and not as a Peach clone.

 

[KMDP]

I mean, sure, I'd want the new fighter, but do we have confirmation that echoes are added in that late? After all, there's more to making the character than just making the literal character.

You also need to make the character's trophy, FS trophy, give them an unlock method, create data for them in the stats and all the mini games, make their render, etc and all that.

I feel like echoes aren't literally added late into overall development, but rather, late into character development. It's also notable that Lucina was featured prominently in Robin's trailer, which was given to us two months before release. I feel like echoes would probably be added at a point in development where it's early enough to expand the plan to add them, but too early to start working on DLC characters.

I dunno, I could be completely wrong about this, but that's how I see it anyway.

I wasn't using the "one month" thing literally. It could have been "3 months before > x amount of time later" and my argument would have been the same.

We don't know if the 6 months/1 month thing includes every aspect of the character or just the main part.

Almost like we're looking for patterns when there probably aren't any. That's gotta be something new for the Smash community, right?

Sakurai: "Okay, which topics do I post about today?" *rummages in hat* "A stage, an item and a fighter, okay!"

 

[Omega Tyrant]

I believe that fraction is approximately 1/6th of the time. So if it takes 6 months to make a full fighter, then it would take one month to make an Echo.

Let's say they have one month before the game goes gold and Sakurai has the choice of making one Echo Fighter, or releasing a completely new Fighter 5 months after the game's release.

Which would you want as the consumer?

That is for a Melee clone (as Sakurai said the time spent on all six of them could have maybe been enough time to make one unique newcomer). An Echo would take even less time than that, as the Melee clones have extensive gameplay differences and are legitimate standalone characters instead of being glorified alts.

 

[Zeox]

I almost feel like they're just pulling a random few topics out of a hat each day. XD

It is pretty random, but at least these 3 first weeks they have tried to make just 3 fighter of the day for week, either the next days are we not gonna see any more until monday or they just got bored.

Almost like we're looking for patterns when there probably aren't any. That's gotta be something new for the Smash community, right?

That's probably because is pretty boring to talk over and over about "10 characters that you think would be in smash" or "what would be the new pokemon rep", so is more fun to talk about mad theories that makes no sense and try to find the illuminati everywhere.

 

[Arcanir]

I believe that fraction is approximately 1/6th of the time. So if it takes 6 months to make a full fighter, then it would take one month to make an Echo.

Let's say they have one month before the game goes gold and Sakurai has the choice of making one Echo Fighter, or releasing a completely new Fighter 5 months after the game's release.

Which would you want as the consumer?

It actually takes over a year to add a character, but regardless, a Echo does not takes up 1/6 of the time.

Firstly, looking at Melee's clones, we got six with the remaining time that the game had, and in that case we know we couldn't have gotten more then one newcomer at best out of that situation as Sakurai blatantly says they couldn't have substituted the six clones for a unique character:

“If I could add one or two more characters, then [Wario] could have gotten in. Of all the characters I discarded, [he’s] ranked near the top.

However, even if I didn’t work on several clone characters he wouldn’t have gotten in.

Even if I deleted characters from before (Jigglypuff, Luigi) he wouldn’t have gotten in.

You might think it’s impossible that even if we delete one character in development that it couldn’t be replaced with another character….

I would have needed to get rid of both Marth and Roy or Mewtwo in order for Wario to get in[1]

Echoes have even less differences then the Melee clones had, so if six of the Melee clones didn't take up enough time to get one unique newcomer out of the situation, then six Echoes definitely wouldn't be able to contribute to one unique newcomer if they were omitted.

Even ignoring that, Lucina and Dark Pit (and Dr. Mario) were split off late in development, so evidentially they couldn't have taken up that much time and resources if they were able to do that and not hurt development in any meaningful way. On top of that, we know their creation process is much less demanding as they're only balanced against their counterpart instead of every other character and don't have too many core differences. They're functionally extras in how they're added, they don't require much to be present.

In short, nothing about your scenario would be likely to happen if that one Echo character was made. If that one was made, you still would've gotten the five unique DLC newcomers at the same time you would've otherwise, they don't take up nearly enough time to push development around in a meaningful way.

 

[Zinith]

That's probably because is pretty boring to talk over and over about "10 characters that you think would be in smash" or "what would be the new pokemon rep", so is more fun to talk about mad theories that makes no sense and try to find the illuminati everywhere.

That and really really toxic conversations about the ballot...

 

[Zeox]

Just noticed that Sunday is at the beginning of the week... is that normal? because in my country, Sunday is the last day of the week.

 

[UltimateWario]

I think there's a pretty real difference between moveset potential and "moveset potential".

Yes, you could create an entirely original moveset for a character like Dark Pit or Daisy. But you could also have them be a glorified alternate costume with some animation changes and not have them break character. I have no doubt that Daisy could have a unique moveset, but she's also Loud Yellow Peach with Flowers Instead of Hearts.

That said, sometimes even "moveset potential" is explored and you can get Tall Blue Quiet Peach Who is Totally Not An Icies Replacement. Out of all the things you can say about Sakurai, the one that both fans and critics share is that he's unpredictable.

 

[Zinith]

Just noticed that Sunday is at the beginning of the week... is that normal? because in my country, Sunday is the last day of the week.

What country is that? America has Sunday at the beginning...

 

[Omega Tyrant]

It actually takes over a year to add a character, but regardless, I doubt that an Echo takes up 1/6 of the time.

Firstly, looking at Melee's clones, we got six with the remaining time that the game had, and in that case we know we couldn't have gotten more then one newcomer at best out of that situation as Sakurai blatantly says they couldn't have substituted the six clones for a unique character:



Echoes have even less differences then the Melee clones had, so if six of the Melee clones didn't take up enough time to get one unique newcomer out of the situation, then six Echoes definitely wouldn't be able to contribute to one unique newcomer if they were added.

Even ignoring that, Lucina and Dark Pit (and Dr. Mario) were split off late in development, so evidentially they couldn't have taken up that much time and resources if they were able to do that and not hurt development in any meaningful way. On top of that, we know their creation process is much less demanding as they're only balanced against their counterpart instead of every other character and don't have too many core differences.

In short, nothing about your scenario would be likely to happen if that one Echo character was made. If that one was made, you still would've gotten the five unique DLC newcomers at the same time you would've otherwise, they don't take up nearly enough time to push development around in a meaningful way.

Oh whoops I thought Sakurai's quote was that the six Melee clones = one unique newcomer, interesting to see that not even the six of them equaled a unique newcomer.

 

[Zeox]

What country is that? America has Sunday at the beginning...

Oh, I never knew that, in Spain, Sunday is the last day of the week.

 

[Danpal65]

Just noticed that Sunday is at the beginning of the week... is that normal? because in my country, Sunday is the last day of the week.

That'll be a timezone thing. Sunday in the US is Monday here in Australia and also in Japan

 

[osby]

Just noticed that Sunday is at the beginning of the week... is that normal? because in my country, Sunday is the last day of the week.

Some countries count it as the first day, but for different reasons.

 

[Zinith]

And yes, I'm an American who's up very late at just after 2:30 am. I have a bizarre schedule

 

[KMDP]

It actually takes over a year to add a character, but regardless, a Echo does not takes up 1/6 of the time.

Firstly, looking at Melee's clones, we got six with the remaining time that the game had, and in that case we know we couldn't have gotten more then one newcomer at best out of that situation as Sakurai blatantly says they couldn't have substituted the six clones for a unique character:



Echoes have even less differences then the Melee clones had, so if six of the Melee clones didn't take up enough time to get one unique newcomer out of the situation, then six Echoes definitely wouldn't be able to contribute to one unique newcomer if they were added.

Even ignoring that, Lucina and Dark Pit (and Dr. Mario) were split off late in development, so evidentially they couldn't have taken up that much time and resources if they were able to do that and not hurt development in any meaningful way. On top of that, we know their creation process is much less demanding as they're only balanced against their counterpart instead of every other character and don't have too many core differences.

In short, nothing about your scenario would be likely to happen if that one Echo character was made. If that one was made, you still would've gotten the five unique DLC newcomers at the same time you would've otherwise, they don't take up nearly enough time to push development around in a meaningful way.

Well, then...

Oh whoops I thought Sakurai's quote was that the six Melee clones = one unique newcomer, interesting to see that not even the six of them equaled a unique newcomer.

Don't worry, that's what I thought too...

The thing is, I think the "Echo Fighter" designation has distracted people (myself included) from the fact that they are glorified alts. Yes, we say it, but we tend to forget the true meaning of that concept.

Would they make Dixie Kong and Shadow just an alt of Diddy Kong and Sonic then split them off later? I can't say they would.
I can see them doing so for Dark Samus, but even that is iffy.
Chrom? Definitely not just an alt of Ike, he would at least start as an Echo.
Ken? Similar to Ike, he's prime echo material, but probably not a good pick for an alt of Ryu.
Impa? You can base her on Sheik, but you can also base her on the Hyrule Warriors Impa. Would they? I don't know, but Sakurai might consider it a good idea to put Impa off for now for a higher designation. Of course, this is obviously assuming they even have Impa as a character in the first place.

 

[Spaceless]

A lot of the cast calls him Pittoo in Uprising.

That was his nickname in Uprising. They also used in his Palutena's Guidance iirc

"Pittoo" is the in-universe nickname for him (I can't remember right now if it was Palutena or Hades who gave it to him).

Naturally, he dislikes it. XD

Oh damn seems to be pretty common Knowledge here. I always wanted to play Uprising but never did because I'm not invested in the series. Is it worth the time even without knowing ist predecessors?

 

[Zinith]

Oh damn seems to be pretty common Knowledge here. I always wanted to play Uprising but never did because I'm not invested in the series. Is it worth the time even without knowing ist predecessors?

Uprising has almost nothing in common with the previous KI games other than Pit, Palutena and Medusa. It's a very fun and self-aware on ground (and aerial) shoot-em-up, although the controls might require getting used to.

 

[osby]

Oh damn seems to be pretty common Knowledge here. I always wanted to play Uprising but never did because I'm not invested in the series. Is it worth the time even without knowing ist predecessors?

It's pretty much a standalone title generally regarded as one of the best 3DS games.

 

[Spaceless]

Sounds good. Alright I'll give it a try then. Thanks guys (or girls, I don't know)

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Well, then...

Don't worry, that's what I thought too...

The thing is, I think the "Echo Fighter" designation has distracted people (myself included) from the fact that they are glorified alts. Yes, we say it, but we tend to forget the true meaning of that concept.

Would they make Dixie Kong and Shadow just an alt of Diddy Kong and Sonic then split them off later? I can't say they would.
I can see them doing so for Dark Samus, but even that is iffy.
Chrom? Definitely not just an alt of Ike, he would at least start as an Echo.
Ken? Similar to Ike, he's prime echo material, but probably not a good pick for an alt of Ryu.
Impa? You can base her on Sheik, but you can also base her on the Hyrule Warriors Impa. Would they? I don't know, but Sakurai might consider it a good idea to put Impa off for now for a higher designation.

The characters can be put in with the intention of being an Echo and probably are, the whole point of Echoes are that these characters can be added as alts while being able to be given some gameplay differences for their own flare. While Lucina and Dark Pit were originally intended to be regular alts in Smash 4, the circumstances were different at the time and the thought process of giving them some gameplay differences to add some flavor occurred midway into development, unlike now where that process would have already been in mind since the beginning and thus characters can be added with that intention from the getgo.

 

[DittoMaster6]

Oh damn seems to be pretty common Knowledge here. I always wanted to play Uprising but never did because I'm not invested in the series. Is it worth the time even without knowing ist predecessors?

Uprising requires absolutely no context to get into, it'll fill you in on what happened in the original right out of the gate almost immediately and you're good to go. Get it, it's amazing.

 

[Deleted member]

Sounds good. Alright I'll give it a try then. Thanks guys (or girls, I don't know)

Just a warning though...
The control scheme is... a bit hard to get used to, for a lack of a better term.

 

[Spaceless]

Just a warning though...
The control scheme is... a bit hard to get used to, for a lack of a better term.

Well I can't aim without a mouse even if my life depended on it so I don't think it makes a big difference xD

 

[KMDP]

The characters can be put in with the intention of being an Echo and probably are, the whole point of Echoes are that these characters can be added as alts while being able to be given some gameplay differences for their own flare. While Lucina and Dark Pit were originally intended to be regular alts in Smash 4, the circumstances were different at the time and the thought process of giving them some gameplay differences to add some flavor occurred midway into development, unlike now where that process would have already been in mind since the beginning and thus characters can be added with that intention from the getgo.

It's a difficult thing. Since we don't know how far they're willing to take the concept, we can't say with certainty one way or the other what will happen.
I still believe that the Echo Fighter designation will be handed out extremely sparingly. We had two in Smash 4 (If Doctor Mario isn't considered one now then we shouldn't consider him one then either, even if he was lumped with the other two), and now have three in Ultimate. It is not like Sakurai is under some contract that he has to add more.

 

[viewtifulduck82]

Any interesting leaks or developments in the last 50 or so pages?

 

[Wambo]

Just thought I'd pop on for a second and let everyone know, the Krystal AT is finally on the blog post. Not sure what was with the delay, but she's up there now.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Any interesting leaks or developments in the last 50 or so pages?

Just a whole buncha nonsense about clones/Echo Fighters.

And I guess a very fake leak with the most uggo Ridley model I have ever seen.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Darkraid]

I wonder would Mario have too many reps if Daisy, Captain Toad, Geno and Waluigi (DLC) gets into the game.

Captain Toad and Geno are real likely in my opinion.

 

[Wambo]

I wonder would Mario have too many reps if Daisy, Captain Toad, Geno and Waluigi (DLC) gets into the game.

Captain Toad and Geno are real likely in my opinion.

Geno is more likely than Captain Toad, imo.

Because of the comments Reggie made, Waluigi still has a slim chance to be remade into DLC. I think we can also probably expect more than fighter DLC at this point as well, because he'll probably need another AT to take his place IF he makes it in.

 

[KMDP]

Geno is more likely than Captain Toad, imo.

Because of the comments Reggie made, Waluigi still has a slim chance to be remade into DLC. I think we can also probably expect more than fighter DLC at this point as well, because he'll probably need another AT to take his place IF he makes it in.

Why would there need to be another AT to replace Waluigi? There are still over 50 others.

EDIT: Also, I don't think Waluigi should be promoted just like that. Sakurai should hold a limited poll where players can vote on which Assist Trophy they think should get upgraded to a playable character ('Limited' in the sense that there are only specific answers you can give).

If the Waluigi fans want him, they should put their money where their mouth is and vote on it. There are other equally eligible Assist Trophies who also 'deserve' the promotion.

Sorry if that sounds over-harsh, I'm pretty tired.

 

[Miikon]

A quick question: how much of SSBU's Splatoon content is something that is exclusive to Splatoon 2, besides Lil Judd?

 

[Will]

A little branching off from the previous topic, you know how Pit and Dark Pit have entirely different themes, right? Same thing with Samus and Ridley. I kinda want everyone in the game to have a unique theme, though that's kind of asking for a bit much since I'm sure composing all this stuff drains a lot out of you.

So I'll just make a list of what I think could work for each character to fit the theme. Of course, this only applies to series with multiple party members.

Spoiler

Spoiler: Mario Bros.

- Same as before
- 0:00 - 0:06
- 0:45 to 0:54 (1.5x Speed)
- 0:16 - 0:26 (2x Speed)
- Same as before
- 0:00 - 0:05 (Would love to make it Sunshine but Koopalings exist)
- 0:06 - 0:12
- Same as before

Spoiler: Donkey Kong

- Same as before
- Nonstop Diddy beatboxing babyyyy

Spoiler: Legend of Zelda

- Same as before
- 0:00 to 0:05
- 0:06 to 0:17 (1.5x Speed)
- Gains the previous version
- 0:09 to 0:13
- A sinister version of Link's theme

Spoiler: Metroid

- Same as before
- Save Station theme
- Same as before

Spoiler: Star Fox

- Same as before
- 0:54 to 1:00
- 0:10 to 0:17

Spoiler: Kirby

- Same as before
- 0:00 to 0:03
- Same as before

Spoiler: Pokemon

- 0:24 to 0:30
- 0:00 to 0:06
- 1:00 to 1:10 (2x Speed)
- Same as before
- 0:14 to 0:19 (Actually had no idea what to give him)
- 0:52 to 1:00
- Looping song or if you really want to suffer, nonstop this.

Spoiler: Mother

- Gains the previous version
- Mix of 0:00 to 0:10 and 0:50 to 1:10 (2x Speed)
The only one where I scrap the actual theme, which is from the first game, which would go to Ninten or Giygas if they ever show up. Also wanted to give Lucas something special since **** his childhood is like ruined forever give the kid some ice cream.

Spoiler: Fire Emblem

- Same as before
- 0:00 to 0:06
- 0:06 to 0:13
- 0:08 to 0:15
:ultrobin - 0:08 to 0:24 (2x Speed)
- 0:10 to 0:22 (2x Speed)

Spoiler: Kid Icarus

- Same as before
- Same as before
- 0:02 to 0:08

Some of these are pretty generic choices but I'd like to hear what you'd rather choose for some fighters. give attention