Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Pretty much. I play him because I like the character but I would absolutely not miss that moveset at all if by some divine intervention Sakurai decided to give him a real moveset.

This is why I don't get all the excitement over clones (I'm not playing along with the whole "echo fighters" name) for characters who have a lot of unique moveset potential of their own. They'll be forever damned to be clones thanks to Sakurai's stubbornness/apathy/laziness.

For anyone who wanted Daisy, I'm happy for you but be prepared for her to be a Peach clone forever as long as Sakurai has anything to do with Smash.

Sakurai is sympathetic, not apathetic. He wants the original players of that playstyle to not feel alienated, so he barely edits characters a lot to avoid this. He's nowhere near lazy and works his fingers almost nearly off for us. Lastly, stubbornness is the only real point you have among that. He is stubborn. But that's just his work mentality. He has an ego. That's just who he is.

Many have an ego, so that's not really a bad thing. If anything, it means we don't get nearly as many cuts as a lot of other series does. So it works in our favor.

 

[Zinith]

Isn't Kirby like...some sort of murderous monster that could asplode the entire multiverse by sniffing you.

I think Kirby's abilities are over exaggerated. I think a lot of it comes from the anime and some of the gags in the Kirby minigames (Megaton Punch for example). Granted, I think Kirby's a powerful little guy, more so than what that chart showed, but not THAT powerful.

 

[Knight Dude]

Ugh, tell me about it. It's incredibly disappointing knowing something will never change due to tradition.
I was really, REALLY, crossing my fingers for Mario Sports (specifically Mario Strikers) Daisy

In terms of moveset either her or Waluigi could have been the Sports/party character.

Design-wise, Strikers costumes are usually some of the first mods made, so that's something to get excited about.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I think Kirby's abilities are over exaggerated. I think a lot of it comes from the anime and some of the gags in the Kirby minigames (Megaton Punch for example). Granted, I think Kirby's a powerful little guy, more so than what that chart showed, but not THAT powerful.

Kirby threw a guy into the sun. Granted, that was in the anime, but he's also gone up against gods and won multiple times.

Dude's scary.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

In terms of moveset either her or Waluigi could have been the Sports/party character.

Design-wise, Strikers costumes are usually some of the first mods made, so that's something to get excited about.

Besides, Peach's dress is part of the attacks. Daisy couldn't have been in her sports outfit and be an echo. And it's likely being an echo was the only reason she could get in. With a lot of unique movesets, some are relegated to easily made clone types to make the workload easier. Never mind how many characters he has to work with now. So a few extras make sense.

 

[DarkFalcon]

Sakurai is sympathetic, not apathetic. He wants the original players of that playstyle to not feel alienated, so he barely edits characters a lot to avoid this. He's nowhere near lazy and works his fingers almost nearly off for us. Lastly, stubbornness is the only real point you have among that. He is stubborn. But that's just his work mentality. He has an ego. That's just who he is.

Many have an ego, so that's not really a bad thing. If anything, it means we don't get nearly as many cuts as a lot of other series does. So it works in our favor.

I'm with you on this. I would never, ever call the man lazy considering we know how hard he works. I want veterans revamped (like Samus), but I understand why he hasn't. He doesn't want to alienate anyone who loved them how they were. This puts him in a tight spot really. The man is stubborn, but at the same time has changed his mind on things many times before. Ridley being the most recent example.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Imadethistoseealeak

May be to your liking.

 

[Radical Bones]

To deflect focus from unneeded character power debates (that's one tier list made by someone on 4chan, it's hardly indicative of real power), here's a "leak."

Spoiler: "Leak"

https://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/422968809
My sources have concluded that these newcomers are 100% true and are yet to be revealed throughout the rest of the year.

- King K. Rool
- Simon Belmont
- Rex & Pyra
- Chrom
- Heihachi
- Crash Bandicoot
- Geno
- Shovel Knight

Simon's default render is of his appearance in the original Castlevania games on the NES, as he is intended to be Ultimate's retro newcomer. His Vampire Killer whip is used in a majority of his moves.

Rex and Pyra serve as one fighter, similar to Ice Climbers, but in their own unique way. You control Rex like in Xenoblade 2, who can have the ability to switch Pyra with Mythra and vice versa, which gives Rex's moves different properties.

Chrom is Ultimate's only Fire Emblem newcomer. He has a completely different moveset apart from the other Fire Emblem representatives. Sakurai was aware of the "relative disdain and unappreciation" for so many Fire Emblem representatives after the development of DLC for Smash Wii U, so he made sure to add only Chrom.

Shovel Knight is the first and only Indie game character to be playable in Ultimate. He is heavily inspired by the mechanics of both Shovel Knight and Hollow Knight. The Shovel Knight amiibo is also compatible with Ultimate.

Echo Fighters include:

- Funky Kong
- Dark Samus
- Ninten
- Dry Bowser

Dry Bowser and Ninten sport almost identical movesets with Bowser and Ness respectively. Funky Kong and Dark Samus are changed slightly. Some of Funky's tilts and aerials implement his surfboard, and his Up-B use it to flutter like in Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze. Dark Samus has a new floating mechanic similar to Peach and Daisy's, along with different special moves.

Sakurai dismissed the idea of 3rd Party Echo Fighters, as they seemed to "monopolize the novelty of the origin guest character" and comments that "it didn't seem right for me to do".

Sakurai plans to make DLC characters as well, but will start development of them once production for the base game of Ultimate is finished.

>Chrom as a character with an original moveset

There's so much wrong here but the one that annoyed me the most was that Shovel Knight is inspired by elements of Hollow Knight. The dude obviously doesn't realise they're different series'

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Think the power of Ike's Forward Smash with the range of Palutena's Up Smash. I think his artes weren't recreated one for one for a reason though:

Spoiler: Canonical Power Tier List - SPOILERS

Notice how "Shulk at full power" (Shulk with the strengh of the Monado) is at the very top.
View attachment 151413

My problem with lists like this is when they put Link or Mario below Ganondorf / Bowser. They've canonically defeated them. Why would they be below them? Should at least be on the same level. Toon Link being that low is also ridiculous.

 

[Idon]

Besides, Peach's dress is part of the attacks. Daisy couldn't have been in her sports outfit and be an echo. And it's likely being an echo was the only reason she could get in. With a lot of unique movesets, some are relegated to easily made clone types to make the workload easier. Never mind how many characters he has to work with now. So a few extras make sense.

That's not my issue. I completely understand that echoes are just slightly promoted alternate costumes that wouldn't have gotten in otherwise.

My issue is that due to the age old use of "not alienating the current fans," Daisy will remain the way she is, for pretty much as long as Sakurai remains the director of Smash (sans some complete heel-turn).
I'm honestly of the opinion that I'd take a delayed character debut over a character incarnation that isn't really unique in some way.

 

[Makai Wars]

Okay, but doesn't their weaponry require that the enemy be specifically vulnerable to ink?

No, Inklings can murder Salmonids who have nothing to do with ink.

 

[Knight Dude]

To deflect focus from unneeded character power debates (that's one tier list made by someone on 4chan, it's hardly indicative of real power), here's a "leak."

Spoiler: "Leak"

https://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/422968809
My sources have concluded that these newcomers are 100% true and are yet to be revealed throughout the rest of the year.

- King K. Rool
- Simon Belmont
- Rex & Pyra
- Chrom
- Heihachi
- Crash Bandicoot
- Geno
- Shovel Knight

Simon's default render is of his appearance in the original Castlevania games on the NES, as he is intended to be Ultimate's retro newcomer. His Vampire Killer whip is used in a majority of his moves.

Rex and Pyra serve as one fighter, similar to Ice Climbers, but in their own unique way. You control Rex like in Xenoblade 2, who can have the ability to switch Pyra with Mythra and vice versa, which gives Rex's moves different properties.

Chrom is Ultimate's only Fire Emblem newcomer. He has a completely different moveset apart from the other Fire Emblem representatives. Sakurai was aware of the "relative disdain and unappreciation" for so many Fire Emblem representatives after the development of DLC for Smash Wii U, so he made sure to add only Chrom.

Shovel Knight is the first and only Indie game character to be playable in Ultimate. He is heavily inspired by the mechanics of both Shovel Knight and Hollow Knight. The Shovel Knight amiibo is also compatible with Ultimate.

Echo Fighters include:

- Funky Kong
- Dark Samus
- Ninten
- Dry Bowser

Dry Bowser and Ninten sport almost identical movesets with Bowser and Ness respectively. Funky Kong and Dark Samus are changed slightly. Some of Funky's tilts and aerials implement his surfboard, and his Up-B use it to flutter like in Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze. Dark Samus has a new floating mechanic similar to Peach and Daisy's, along with different special moves.

Sakurai dismissed the idea of 3rd Party Echo Fighters, as they seemed to "monopolize the novelty of the origin guest character" and comments that "it didn't seem right for me to do".

Sakurai plans to make DLC characters as well, but will start development of them once production for the base game of Ultimate is finished.

>Chrom as a character with an original moveset

It that wasn't enough to make it seem fake. Why would Shovel Knight have moves/mechanics from a completely different indie game? Couldn't even be bothered to get into Heihachi's moveset either. If you're going to go into detail for this, at least go all out.

Well either that or be as reserved as possible.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Imadethistoseealeak

May be to your liking.

OMG someone is looking out for me! That's the sweetest thing ever I'm dying.

....I've already seen it though. I defintely am just absorbing them faster than they can upload them. But I really appreciate you sharing this. ALSO IT WAS A GOOD FIGHT!

 

[Idon]

My problem with lists like this is when they put Link or Mario below Ganondorf / Bowser. They've canonically defeated them. Why would they be below them? Should at least be on the same level. Toon Link being that low is also ridiculous.

Because they're obviously underdogs.
That's what makes prevailing over the villain satisfying. It would be incredibly lame if Mario's main bad guy was baby Bowser and all Mario had to do was punt him off a cliff.

Villains lose because they lack something heroes don't, whether that be courage, friendship, ambition, wisdom, patience, etc etc. So despite them having more RAW STRENGTH they often fail despite of that.

Unless they're the DemiFiend in which case his entire shtick is getting strong enough to punch Lucifer in the face.

 

[PhantomShab]

Ugh, tell me about it. It's incredibly disappointing knowing something will never change due to tradition.
I was really, REALLY, crossing my fingers for Mario Sports (specifically Mario Strikers) Daisy

Smash 4 was finally the breaking point for me when it comes to hoping Ganondorf ever gets proper treatment. I knew before even seeing him in Ultimate that he'd still be a slower Captain Falcon when you get right down to it. But at least his Smash attacks are something other than what Melee grandfathered in. Baby steps I guess. Broken legged baby steps.

He wants the original players of that playstyle to not feel alienated

I see this posted all the time regarding Falcondorf but I never see a source for it. It's the same as those "Ganondorf reminds Sakurai of his dad" or "Sakurai picked Ganondorf in a random Brawl match that one time so that means he mains him" memes that people got fooled into believing.

 

[DemonRin]

To deflect focus from unneeded character power debates (that's one tier list made by someone on 4chan, it's hardly indicative of real power), here's a "leak."

Spoiler: "Leak"

https://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/422968809
My sources have concluded that these newcomers are 100% true and are yet to be revealed throughout the rest of the year.

- King K. Rool
- Simon Belmont
- Rex & Pyra
- Chrom
- Heihachi
- Crash Bandicoot
- Geno
- Shovel Knight

Simon's default render is of his appearance in the original Castlevania games on the NES, as he is intended to be Ultimate's retro newcomer. His Vampire Killer whip is used in a majority of his moves.

Rex and Pyra serve as one fighter, similar to Ice Climbers, but in their own unique way. You control Rex like in Xenoblade 2, who can have the ability to switch Pyra with Mythra and vice versa, which gives Rex's moves different properties.

Chrom is Ultimate's only Fire Emblem newcomer. He has a completely different moveset apart from the other Fire Emblem representatives. Sakurai was aware of the "relative disdain and unappreciation" for so many Fire Emblem representatives after the development of DLC for Smash Wii U, so he made sure to add only Chrom.

Shovel Knight is the first and only Indie game character to be playable in Ultimate. He is heavily inspired by the mechanics of both Shovel Knight and Hollow Knight. The Shovel Knight amiibo is also compatible with Ultimate.

Echo Fighters include:

- Funky Kong
- Dark Samus
- Ninten
- Dry Bowser

Dry Bowser and Ninten sport almost identical movesets with Bowser and Ness respectively. Funky Kong and Dark Samus are changed slightly. Some of Funky's tilts and aerials implement his surfboard, and his Up-B use it to flutter like in Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze. Dark Samus has a new floating mechanic similar to Peach and Daisy's, along with different special moves.

Sakurai dismissed the idea of 3rd Party Echo Fighters, as they seemed to "monopolize the novelty of the origin guest character" and comments that "it didn't seem right for me to do".

Sakurai plans to make DLC characters as well, but will start development of them once production for the base game of Ultimate is finished.

>Chrom as a character with an original moveset

Man I would like this to be true due to Geno, he's my most wanted newcomer with Dixie right under him. But that's so faaaaaaaaake lol

 

[Tailisu10]

That's not my issue. I completely understand that echoes are just slightly promoted alternate costumes that wouldn't have gotten in otherwise.

My issue is that due to the age old use of "not alienating the current fans," Daisy will remain the way she is, for pretty much as long as Sakurai remains the director of Smash (sans some complete heel-turn).
I'm honestly of the opinion that I'd take a delayed character debut over a character incarnation that isn't really unique in some way.

This is why I think peeps should probably think about it carefully on making a character an echo/ a clone, since they'll be stuck like that for future games atm.

This also applies to movesets in general.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Man I would like this to be true due to Geno, he's my most wanted newcomer with Dixie right under him. But that's so faaaaaaaaake lol

Geno is within the top 10 characters mentioned in leaks, being mentioned in 26 out of 90 leaks, or in 28.99% of all leaks. Dixie Kong fares slightly better, being mentioned in 27 out of 90 leaks, or 30% of all leaks.

Dream on my friend.

 

[Murlough]

Ganondorf hasn't played like Falcon since Melee.

They might as well be opposites in 4.

In Ultimate if anyone says Ganondorf is just a slow Falcon I.......just don't say that please.

 

[Zinith]

Kirby threw a guy into the sun. Granted, that was in the anime, but he's also gone up against gods and won multiple times.

Dude's scary.

Okay, I'm not trying to dispute Kirby's abilities. I just wanted to point that out as that was practically my entire point...

 

[PSIGuy]

One thing I wish they changed about Ganondorf was his side-b; keep it the same functionally but have him grab his cape while he advances and use it to reflect back projectiles like he does in the OoT bossfight. It'd let him approach more aggressively and retcon an old move into something closer to his actual bossfight. Ah well.

On the whole Rex/Shulk thing. Sakurai put off adding Wario as a clone in Melee because he thought Wario deserved better, the same Sakurai who thought removing Wario's shoulder bash in Smash 4 for any reason was a good move. If he's like that towards a character he doesn't really know he's sure as hell not going to half ass Rex. If they really wanted XB2 stuff in the base game, Malos as a Shulk Echo with different stand/walk animations could walk (Malos is a lot more confident and wouldn't fit Shulk's posture that well) but that's a stretch.

 

[Idon]

Smash 4 was finally the breaking point for me when it comes to hoping Ganondorf ever gets proper treatment. I knew before even seeing him in Ultimate that he'd still be a slower Captain Falcon when you get right down to it. But at least his Smash attacks are something other than what Melee grandfathered in. Baby steps I guess. Broken legged baby steps.


I see this posted all the time regarding Falcondorf but I never see a source for it. It's the same as those "Ganondorf reminds Sakurai of his dad" or "Sakurai picked Ganondorf in a random Brawl match that one time so that means he mains him" memes that people got fooled into believing.

Yeah, my distaste has evolved so that it's now just shriveled apathy. "Yeah, okay, sure, Ganondorf's officially a big slow Captain Falcon with explosion kicks and slow spinny punches. Fine."

And while it's not exactly a sourced statement, but it's pretty easy to see why Sakurai would do such things.

Throughout 20ish years of Smash he's always been one more to "alter" but not "replace" even among characters like Luigi, Roy, Falco who now play significantly differently (Like Ganondorf except they're at least in the same series), they still have their moves rooted in their original characters.

And considering he's gone through the effort of changing skins, voices, models, and animations, and even playstyles, of certain characters it'd be easy for him to completely revamp other characters as well, so the only conclusion left is fear of fan alienation, because he clearly isn't lacking in effort with his 23 hour work schedule or something.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

On the subject of Falcondorf, I just wish he had his iconic Dead Man's Volley somehow, otherwise I think the move set does a good job a portraying Ganondorf.

 

[Metal Shop X]

Ganondorf hasn't played like Falcon since Melee.

They might as well be opposites in 4.

In Ultimate if anyone says Ganondorf is just a slow Falcon I.......just don't say that please.

If the buff he got are anything to go by, Ultimate Ganondorf will probably have the best aerial game beside Melee Ganondorf.

Like, his nair look ridiculous, and the landing lag on all of his move have been reduced, plus, his fair have more reach.

While it's too early to tell how good this Ganon will do against other character, I feel like we might get a very fun Ganondorf that isn't too slow.

 

[Idon]

Really, the Falcondorf's conversation's getting old.

But have you all noticed how pretty much all the sword wielders have the same down smash of hitting forward and then backward?

 

[Zinith]

Really, the Falcondorf's conversation's getting old.

But have you all noticed how pretty much all the sword wielders have the same down smash of hitting forward and then backward?

Hell, that's a similar down smash for NON-SWORD users, such as my boi Yoshi (only it's reversed: backward then forward)

 

[PhantomShab]

Yeah, my distaste has evolved so that it's now just shriveled apathy. "Yeah, okay, sure, Ganondorf's officially a big slow Captain Falcon with explosion kicks and slow spinny punches. Fine."

And while it's not exactly a sourced statement, but it's pretty easy to see why Sakurai would do such things.

Throughout 20ish years of Smash he's always been one more to "alter" but not "replace" even among characters like Luigi, Roy, Falco who now play significantly differently (Like Ganondorf except they're at least in the same series), they still have their moves rooted in their original characters.

And considering he's gone through the effort of changing skins, voices, models, and animations, and even playstyles, of certain characters it'd be easy for him to completely revamp other characters as well, so the only conclusion left is fear of fan alienation, because he clearly isn't lacking in effort with his 23 hour work schedule or something.

Even still Ganondorf is arguably the one character who would alienate the least amount of people if he was drastically changed. Sakurai could spend days looking over thread after thread in forum after forum seeing all the people who don't like how one of Nintendo's and gaming's most iconic villains is a glorified copy/paste of a made up moveset designed for a space racer man. Bonus points if Sakurai just gives the old Falcondorf moveset to Black Shadow. Literally everyone wins.

 

[Metal Shop X]

But have you all noticed how pretty much all the sword wielders have the same down smash of hitting forward and then backward?

Corrin would like a word with you.

 

[Hinata]

Really, the Falcondorf's conversation's getting old.

But have you all noticed how pretty much all the sword wielders have the same down smash of hitting forward and then backward?

Real men have down smashes that hit both sides at once.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Really, the Falcondorf's conversation's getting old.

But have you all noticed how pretty much all the sword wielders have the same down smash of hitting forward and then backward?

It's not just sword fighters. Mario, Luigi, Ganondorf, Falcon, and Ness all immediately come to mind.

 

[Idon]

It's not just sword fighters. Mario, Luigi, Ganondorf, Falcon, and Ness all immediately come to mind.

Oh wait, does the Mario/Luigi breakdance only hit consecutively? Huh, I always thought it hit both sides at once. Learn something new every day.

 

[Makai Wars]

Has anyone noticed that almost everyone spins around for their neutral air? :thinking:

 

[Idon]

Has anyone noticed that almost everyone spins around for their neutral air? :thinking:

Actually, I've noticed it's kinda more of a sex kick and variations of it, but that might be due to the original 12 all having it. Though for sword users, yeah it's mostly a 360 circle.

 

[Zinith]

Has anyone noticed that almost everyone spins around for their neutral air? :thinking:

Makes me grateful that I play a character that has a sex kick for a nair (and a good one at that)

 

[Troykv]

Kirby threw a guy into the sun. Granted, that was in the anime, but he's also gone up against gods and won multiple times.

Dude's scary.

Hmm..

Essencially a god: Nightmare, Dark Mind?
Has god-like power: Nova, Star Dream, Marx Soul, Sectonia, Zero, Drawcia, Magolor Soul
Literally a god (has an actual following for it): Void Termina

I think I'm forgetting someone.

 

[Radical Bones]

Has anyone noticed that almost everyone spins around for their neutral air? :thinking:

This reminded me of how excited I am to try out Pikachu's new nair. It's like Mewtwo's but smaller.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Hmm..

Essencially a god: Nightmare, Dark Mind?
Has god-like power: Nova, Star Dream, Marx Soul, Sectonia, Zero, Drawcia
Literally a god (with even the Cult): Void Termina

I think I'm forgetting someone.

I consider "God-Like Power" on the level of God.

You also forgot Dark Matter, who's practically the source of all evil in the Kirby-verse.

But I digress.

 

[Radical Bones]

Hmm..

Essencially a god: Nightmare, Dark Mind?
Has god-like power: Nova, Star Dream, Marx Soul, Sectonia, Zero, Drawcia, Magolor Soul
Literally a god (has an actual following for it): Void Termina

I think I'm forgetting someone.

Chef Kawasaki the Omni-King, is one of the kings of the 12 Universes, one of the two entities who stands above the entire multiverse, alongside his future counterpart, Future Chef Kawasaki.

 

[Zinith]

One thing to note about determining a character's strength is that feats =/= ability. Just because a knight defeats a dragon doesn't mean the knight's strength and abilities exceed that of the dragon.

 

[Troykv]

I consider "God-Like Power" on the level of God.

You also forgot Dark Matter, who's practically the source of all evil in the Kirby-verse.

But I digress.

I mostly differ both category because the characters from that kind,... have Magic, but outside of Magolor Soul and Sectoria (which I also don't count because they're essencially the host of a thing powered with godly powers); I can't really related them with actual god powers; but they're really high in that standart... (Nova and Star Dream are made for an actual race; a superior one; but nothing it's say they're gods).

Dark Mind control his own dimention; and Nightmare has very frighting abilities that makes him impossible to be completely destroyed (he's the living representation of the anti-thesis of the Dreams).

______________

I would have put Dark Matter somewhere; but I'm not sure where.