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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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DarkFalcon

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Came back from a fun little party (more like a get together), and we're arguing over something else now? What's this about exactly? Something about Shulk and Rex? I'm too tired to read through several pages.
 

Mc.Rad

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Came back from a fun little party (more like a get together), and we're arguing over something else now? What's this about exactly? Something about Shulk and Rex? I'm too tired to read through several pages.
Yeah people are arguing whether Rex would be an Echo or a Character
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Not at the time, it was not. Falcondorf was the pain of many existence during the brawl days. Most just threw a fit that he was a falcon clone. Even with Brawl, it was constantly hated on.
I was not speaking for anyone but myself. The logic that a person who is all about power would be a powerhouse is reasonable. His personality was murderous besides WW, which he isn't even based upon, instead his two murderous designs. In which cases he was still physically powerful. He doesn't show off nearly as much magic as his beast form, which was also coincidentally non-magic based in TP. Ganon/dorf wasn't very much focused on magic much in OOT. It was more showing strength in various ways, physically and with his actions. He was feared due to the conquering he did, not flinging off a few magic spells. One that didn't even originate with him(Dead Man's Volley, an ability introduced by Agnahim and used by tons of bosses, many who have zero ties to Ganon/dorf).

I would not consider any games past OoT given he was made in melee before all those games and that his moveset never really changed since then. I think there is a hind site issue though. Most will argue Falcondorf is not representative of Ganondorf. He has grown on people over the years, but that took alot of time.

Granted, there was nothing really to Ganondorf at the time, so anything could fit for him.
Again, why would I be speaking for others? I'm speaking for myself. I think he perfectly represents Ganondorf's abilities and personalities. I was kind of disappointed on how the sword was shoehorned in, to be honest. I do like he's more OOT-based, keeping his physical prowess while using a small bit of magic, just like in OOT, but focusing on him being all about power, which is really the point of his character. He's the most powerful thing ever. He still shows that off. Entirely.
 

TheLastJinjo

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Full disclosure, I totally hope I'm wrong and that Affinity, Pyra, and Mythra are a part of Rex's move set. Aside from King K. Rool, that's my top newcomer hope.
 

DaybreakHorizon

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God, can you imagine what Shulk would be like if Buster acted like it did in OG Xenoblade?
Think the power of Ike's Forward Smash with the range of Palutena's Up Smash. I think his artes weren't recreated one for one for a reason though:
Notice how "Shulk at full power" (Shulk with the strengh of the Monado) is at the very top.
1529013549181.png
 

DarkFalcon

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Yeah people are arguing whether Rex would be an Echo or a Character
Wait what? That's nonsense lmao. His weapon doesn't function like Shulk's and he'd kinda be paired with Pyra/Mythra. That makes absolutely no sense. Plus people have argued you need to be the same body size/shape to even qualify as an echo and Rex is quite a bit shorter than Shulk.
 

Zinith

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Think the power of Ike's Forward Smash with the range of Palutena's Up Smash. I think his artes weren't recreated one for one for a reason though:
Notice how "Shulk at full power" (Shulk with the strengh of the Monado) is at the very top.
View attachment 151413
Since when is Yoshi considered "normal human with some adventuring prowess?"
 

Knight Dude

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Think the power of Ike's Forward Smash with the range of Palutena's Up Smash. I think his artes weren't recreated one for one for a reason though:
Notice how "Shulk at full power" (Shulk with the strengh of the Monado) is at the very top.
View attachment 151413
Kirby would be S+ tier. What is this?

Also Samus can slow down time. So can Mega Man, along with freezing time and changing gravity. Those two are busted.
 

Hinata

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Since when is Yoshi considered "normal human with some adventuring prowess?"
He's just on the same level as a normal human with adventuring prowess because his abilities are limited to jumping really high and far, and eating stuff to make ammo.
 

drag0nscythe

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I was not speaking for anyone but myself. The logic that a person who is all about power would be a powerhouse is reasonable. His personality was murderous besides WW, which he isn't even based upon, instead his two murderous designs. In which cases he was still physically powerful. He doesn't show off nearly as much magic as his beast form, which was also coincidentally non-magic based in TP. Ganon/dorf wasn't very much focused on magic much in OOT. It was more showing strength in various ways, physically and with his actions. He was feared due to the conquering he did, not flinging off a few magic spells. One that didn't even originate with him(Dead Man's Volley, an ability introduced by Agnahim and used by tons of bosses, many who have zero ties to Ganon/dorf).


Again, why would I be speaking for others? I'm speaking for myself. I think he perfectly represents Ganondorf's abilities and personalities. I was kind of disappointed on how the sword was shoehorned in, to be honest. I do like he's more OOT-based, keeping his physical prowess while using a small bit of magic, just like in OOT, but focusing on him being all about power, which is really the point of his character. He's the most powerful thing ever. He still shows that off. Entirely.
We are walking in circles I think. I acknowledge what you are saying, but I disagree on parts. He came off as more magic space wizard to me in OoT. And did nothing but ride his horse. and throw magic balls at people.

But aside from that, is Quest 64 owned by Nintendo? I remember that game being frustrating, but I have fond memories of it. Cheating and running from every battle. Seeing the open world it had. Honestly enjoyed it.

Wait what? That's nonsense lmao. His weapon doesn't function like Shulk's and he'd kinda be paired with Pyra/Mythra. That makes absolutely no sense. Plus people have argued you need to be the same body size/shape to even qualify as an echo and Rex is quite a bit shorter than Shulk.
Where did the same shape/size thing come from anyway? Taking a moveset and stretching the limbs is not at all difficult. So I am not sure where this constrait came from. seems to be very very limiting on what could/could not allow echos. (which are really just clones)
 
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RandomAce

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FACT:

We’re all going through PHP, post hype period, where we all rot as Sakurai posts already revealed information on his blog outside of a couple of songs and maybe unrevealed stages.

I’m dying inside as I wait an agonizing 5 months until this game releases.
 
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N3ON

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I'm pretty sure liking Falcondorf is one of the symptoms of Stockholm Syndrome. :p
 

Zinith

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He's just on the same level as a normal human with adventuring prowess because his abilities are limited to jumping really high and far, and eating stuff to make ammo.
Oh boy, I don't want to get into a Yoshi argument. Doesn't end well...

He can lift eggs that are at least 10 times his size...
 

DaybreakHorizon

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Kirby would be S+ tier. What is this?

Also Samus can slow down time. So can Mega Man, along with freezing time and changing gravity. Those two are busted.
He is though.

"Kirby when he cares" is easily one of, if not the strongest character in Smash Bros. Have you seen what happens when someone steals his cake? Dude goes and destroys God when that happens. And it's happened multiple times. I refer you to this video, which is surprisingly accurate:

The morale of the story: Don't mess with Kirby.
 
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Idon

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Real talk, if Ganondorf was a Zelda clone instead, I'm sure we'd still have people that would like that over an original Ganondorf.
 

Hinata

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Oh boy, I don't want to get into a Yoshi argument. Doesn't end well...

He can lift eggs that are at least 10 times his size...
You know what? That's a fair point.
 

Knight Dude

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I'm pretty sure liking Falcondorf is one of the symptoms of Stockholm Syndrome. :p
They changed a couple moves over the years, Side Tilt and Down Tilt. Now all his Smashes are Sword moves. And his Side-B is based on him killing that sage guy.

Still gotta find a way to get the Dead Man's Volley though.
 

TheLastJinjo

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I couldn't ask for a better version of Ganondorf than the one that is in Ultimate. He's one of the veterans I'm most excited to play.
 

Fenriraga

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Okay, so I'm trying to play catch up here...

What part of this patch datamine indicates that it was Bayonetta? I'm hearing data and seeing numbers, but I have yet to see anything that directly proves it was Bayo.

Not arguing against it here, just wondering where the Bayonetta conclusion is coming from.
 

DarkFalcon

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That's also not mentioning that some of those Mega Eggs are made of lead and that in some of his games he can eat immensely large enemies

In other words don't underestimate the adorable green dinosaur!!!
I wish I loved something as much as you love Yoshi.
 

vaanrose

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If we put the original 12 on the top row, Like this Image I stole from 4chan, it would make sense to have only 7 more playable. Now being a perfect square is not a limit by any means, but it is something.
View attachment 151386
I spent months teaching people to leave space on the sides of the CSS mockups because Smash 4 Wii U had large overscan protection, but nobody listened and everybody just ran the icons all the way to the edge anyway.

Now that Smash Ultimate has foregone overscan completely (unnecessary with a built-in screen like the Switch has) and actually runs the Ui all the way across the edge, everybody is finally leaving space on the sides. =__=
 

Makai Wars

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Inklings being on the same level as average humans is ridiculous, the things are nigh indestructible, canonically respawn infinitely from death, have echo location, super jumping abilities, have super weapons that make them invincible, and every 14 year old is groomed from youth to be a super soldier, the entire Inkling society is probably the biggest military power in the world.
Inklings as a species are C tier, and specific characters like Agent 3 are B tier--- actually this whole list is nonsense, Kirby is SSSS+ tier and DK is A tier, who the hell wrote this?
 
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Idon

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But is it like some sorta requirement that Yoshi has to lift an egg specifically to get super buff or can he just use his Kratos muscles whenever?
 

Knight Dude

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He is though.

"Kirby when he cares" is easily one of, if not the strongest character in Smash Bros. Have you seen what happens when someone steals his cake? Dude goes and destroys God when that happens. And it's happened multiple times. I refer you to this video, which is surprisingly accurate:

The morale of the story: Don't mess with Kirby.
Exactly, which is why Bayo, Sonic, Palutena or whoever else shouldn't even be in the same tier as Kirby. He's a balloon with feet and would still kick most other characters asses. Which is hilarious.

Inklings being on the same level as average humans is ridiculous, the things are nigh indestructible, canonically respawn infinitely from death, have echo location, super jumping abilities, have super weapons that make them invincible, and every 14 year old is groomed from youth to be a super soldier, the entire Inkling society is probably the biggest military power in the world.
Inklings as a species are C tier--- actually this whole list is nonsense, Kirby is SSSS+ tier and DK is A tier, who the hell wrote this?
DK punched the moon out of orbit though.
 

DarkFalcon

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Isn't Kirby like...some sort of murderous monster that could asplode the entire multiverse by sniffing you.
 

Idon

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Inklings being on the same level as average humans is ridiculous, the things are nigh indestructible, canonically respawn infinitely from death, have echo location, super jumping abilities, have super weapons that make them invincible, and every 14 year old is groomed from youth to be a super soldier, the entire Inkling society is probably the biggest military power in the world.
Inklings as a species are C tier, and specific characters like Agent 3 are B tier--- actually this whole list is nonsense, Kirby is SSSS+ tier and DK is A tier, who the hell wrote this?
Okay, but doesn't their weaponry require that the enemy be specifically vulnerable to ink?
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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We are walking in circles I think. I acknowledge what you are saying, but I disagree on parts. He came off as more magic space wizard to me in OoT. And did nothing but ride his horse. and throw magic balls at people.
He did more than that, as noted before. He has a ground pound attack that literally removes a good chunk of the floor and sends you flying via the shockwaves. It wasn't even a magical ability either, it was literally just physical strength. He also physically attacks you as Ganon, using his swords.

But aside from that, is Quest 64 owned by Nintendo? I remember that game being frustrating, but I have fond memories of it. Cheating and running from every battle. Seeing the open world it had. Honestly enjoyed it.
Nope. Completely 3rd party. It's owned by Imagineer, who went out of the gaming business ages ago. They don't even fully own it anymore, as the copyright is up(I think that's the one. It's where you can legally re-sell it without worrying about paying them. But you can't do anything with the game(s) otherwise. You can't edit it in any way. Hence, it's impossible to go on VC). Nintendo didn't even publish it. THQ published the US version, Konami all the UK versions, and Imagineer the JP version.

Dorf does literally nothing in the OoT fight EXCEPT throw spells at you. If you get too close to him he charges a spell and punches the ground with it.
That makes it no less a physical attack as well. No different from Warlock Punch, honestly.
 

PhantomShab

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I'm pretty sure liking Falcondorf is one of the symptoms of Stockholm Syndrome. :p
Pretty much. I play him because I like the character but I would absolutely not miss that moveset at all if by some divine intervention Sakurai decided to give him a real moveset.

This is why I don't get all the excitement over clones (I'm not playing along with the whole "echo fighters" name) for characters who have a lot of unique moveset potential of their own. They'll be forever damned to be clones thanks to Sakurai's stubbornness/apathy/laziness.

For anyone who wanted Daisy, I'm happy for you but be prepared for her to be a Peach clone forever as long as Sakurai has anything to do with Smash.
 

Hinata

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Okay, so I'm trying to play catch up here...

What part of this patch datamine indicates that it was Bayonetta? I'm hearing data and seeing numbers, but I have yet to see anything that directly proves it was Bayo.

Not arguing against it here, just wondering where the Bayonetta conclusion is coming from.
Now, I'm a little fuzzy on the details myself, but I believe it was something like there was a slot for a new character that was named "Mario" (obviously a placeholder) that had ZSS's stats. Not too incriminating on its own, but people then realized that as the patches went on, the stats slowly changed until they became the same stats Bayonetta has now.
 

Zinith

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But is it like some sorta requirement that Yoshi has to lift an egg specifically to get super buff or can he just use his Kratos muscles whenever?
I think because he's like a raptor and raptors have tiny little arms, the idea is that Yoshi just doesn't use his arms not because he ISN'T strong (his egg throwing proves otherwise) but because he just doesn't.

Of course I think that's ridiculous because he's now more anthro than before, so it kinda seems like archaic design. Also, just because he doesn't show upper body strength all that much doesn't mean he's not strong in other areas like his legs or his digestive tract...
 

Idon

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Pretty much. I play him because I like the character but I would absolutely not miss that moveset at all if by some divine intervention Sakurai decided to give him a real moveset.

This is why I don't get all the excitement over clones (I'm not playing along with the whole "echo fighters" name) for characters who have a lot of unique moveset potential of their own. They'll be forever damned to be clones thanks to Sakurai's stubbornness/apathy/laziness.

For anyone who wanted Daisy, I'm happy for you but be prepared for her to be a Peach clone forever as long as Sakurai has anything to do with Smash.
Ugh, tell me about it. It's incredibly disappointing knowing something will never change due to tradition.
I was really, REALLY, crossing my fingers for Mario Sports (specifically Mario Strikers) Daisy
 

Jetsurge

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Sakurai's bias to his own Kirby games continues!
 
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DaybreakHorizon

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To deflect focus from unneeded character power debates (that's one tier list made by someone on 4chan, it's hardly indicative of real power), here's a "leak."
https://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/422968809
My sources have concluded that these newcomers are 100% true and are yet to be revealed throughout the rest of the year.

- King K. Rool
- Simon Belmont
- Rex & Pyra
- Chrom
- Heihachi
- Crash Bandicoot
- Geno
- Shovel Knight

Simon's default render is of his appearance in the original Castlevania games on the NES, as he is intended to be Ultimate's retro newcomer. His Vampire Killer whip is used in a majority of his moves.

Rex and Pyra serve as one fighter, similar to Ice Climbers, but in their own unique way. You control Rex like in Xenoblade 2, who can have the ability to switch Pyra with Mythra and vice versa, which gives Rex's moves different properties.

Chrom is Ultimate's only Fire Emblem newcomer. He has a completely different moveset apart from the other Fire Emblem representatives. Sakurai was aware of the "relative disdain and unappreciation" for so many Fire Emblem representatives after the development of DLC for Smash Wii U, so he made sure to add only Chrom.

Shovel Knight is the first and only Indie game character to be playable in Ultimate. He is heavily inspired by the mechanics of both Shovel Knight and Hollow Knight. The Shovel Knight amiibo is also compatible with Ultimate.

Echo Fighters include:

- Funky Kong
- Dark Samus
- Ninten
- Dry Bowser

Dry Bowser and Ninten sport almost identical movesets with Bowser and Ness respectively. Funky Kong and Dark Samus are changed slightly. Some of Funky's tilts and aerials implement his surfboard, and his Up-B use it to flutter like in Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze. Dark Samus has a new floating mechanic similar to Peach and Daisy's, along with different special moves.

Sakurai dismissed the idea of 3rd Party Echo Fighters, as they seemed to "monopolize the novelty of the origin guest character" and comments that "it didn't seem right for me to do".

Sakurai plans to make DLC characters as well, but will start development of them once production for the base game of Ultimate is finished.
>Chrom as a character with an original moveset
 

Fenriraga

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Now, I'm a little fuzzy on the details myself, but I believe it was something like there was a slot for a new character that was named "Mario" (obviously a placeholder) that had ZSS's stats. Not too incriminating on its own, but people then realized that as the patches went on, the stats slowly changed until they became the same stats Bayonetta has now.
Ah, so later patches slowly and surely gave signs that the placeholder was for Bayo, or that she at least adopted it. Interesting. Thanks for clarifyin'.
 
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