Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[vaanrose]

Now, I will play Devil's Advocate here because I am firmly in the camp that Bayonetta was planned well before the ballot, but on the topic of securing rights: there's obviously a lot of legal stuff that has to go into a deal like this, and that takes times. But Sakurai is a well known, well respected game developer with connections and friends across many different studios, and, as happens, sometimes all it takes is a single phone call or lunch date for someone in that position to the get the "unofficially official" go ahead. And then the legal team does their job while the creative side does theirs.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Post your sources and people are a little justified on their whining

Ah, this is funny to me. Considering the source and all that. Thanks for the reminder.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Cosmic77]

Cosmic77 is apparently Male.

I put my gender in my profile for a reason. My Rosalina pic and occupation as a nurse is never helpful in clarifying that I am indeed a dude, not a lady.

I don't consider discussing how Nintendo cheesed the ballot to get Bayo in counts as turning against Sakurai. Nintendo is a buisness, this whole thing was a business plot, Nintendo willingly mislead it's audience to promote Bayonetta. This is worth talking about.

Everyone in this discussion has expressed genuine disdain for taking any of this to Sakurai or even other websites, so you're going to have to explain to me how discussing something Smash related on a website created for the sole purpose of discussing Smash counts as turning on Sakurai and saying he's a terrible person or whatever. Talking about this does not suddenly mean we hate Sakurai or we're going to boycott Ultimate. Sakurai works his balls off for this fanbase but that does not suddenly mean Nintendo is absolved from any and all criticism.

If you're saying we should stop talking about it just because some people don't appreciate what Nintendo did than that's a hard disagreement from me.

Never said you had to stop talking about it. Just that you shouldn't take your anger out on Sakurai.

Maybe it's because I always went into conspiracy theory mode whenever people brought up Bayo winning the ballot, but this isn't really shocking news to me. It was a pretty weird coincidence for Bayo to get chosen right after Nintendo displayed an interest in making her franchise exclusive to Nintendo consoles.

All this really did was reaffirm my suspicions and show myself that my skepticism was deserved. I'm not mad, and honestly, I'm actually relieved that Sakurai didn't ignore more popular characters like I initially thought he did.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

They didn't add Bayonetta in 2 weeks though. They prepared to add her in the two weeks. There's nothing illegal about copying ZSS's bone structure to another slot. If the deal fell through all they had to do was delete that copy of ZSS.

I stated above that they didn't have to have the rights to copy ZSS. They could be prepped before making a deal.

Misleading is the word you're looking for, and I'll agree with that. Fraudulent would mean that the whole thing was bogus and that just isn't true. They didn't just throw out the results. From what I remember it said that the votes would be considered for future fighters in the Smash Franchise and was never strictly stated to have any form of confirmation that that character would appear in Smash 4. Bayonetta happened and it was stated that it was because of the ballot. There's no reason to doubt that fact. A very vague data mine that said ZSS was copied to slot 57 is no form of confirmation that she was preplanned before the ballot.

There are a metric **** ton of direct rip models for The Wonderful 101 in Smash 4. It's more likely that's the reason he was there.
Calling it scummy is like comparing their use of a voting ballot to the microtransactions fiesta of EA's Battlefront II. Misleading is the word we should be using. And sure, maybe it was.

To add on to what Vaanrose said, you can't just pretend they were working on 1.0.6 and adding data to it up until the very last minute before release, that is not how game development works. Every change has to be balance tested, and every change has to be bug tested, especially content additions, any change could result in a significant game-breaking glitch happening. Remember when the patch that increased shieldstun dropped and resulted in Diddy being able to become completely immune to grabs? Patches are additionally uploaded to the servers several days in advance of their actual release. So once more the actual timeframe between Ballot being announced and the ability to add Bayonetta to version 1.0.6 is in reality probably nonexistent, or extremely small if it existed at all, there wasn't a whole two week window to do it (which itself is a very small window as is to do everything to get Bayo's data on the game).

Also how are Wonderful 101 models used for trophies existing in Smash 4's data relevant here?

I wondered at what point the extra ZSS and Ike based slots were finalized? Mewtwo was first released in April 15 2015, but we already know from April 1st, through his trailer in that direct, that he was finished before the Ballot was officially announced.

I don't think there's any doubt that the version 1.0.6 we got was finalized by the time of the direct, who knows though how old it is beyond that.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

It's always possible that they'll have custom special moves this time.

Anyway, this may be debatable, but Smash Ultimate probably won't feel so ultimate if it lacks the customization features that Smash 3DS / Wii U offered. And the best way to make custom specials more viable for competitive play would be to have them available right off the bat.

I believe Sakurai has said that balancing customs moves is too much of a headache to do. Th fact they streamlined Palutena specials gives me very high reason that customs are gone unless they're going to give Palutena new customs ,and what about Pokemon Trainer, or the DLC characters of Smash 4. There's too many things that needs to be done for Sakurai to make customs a priority. IMO they're low priority this time.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I put my gender in my profile for a reason. My Rosalina pic and occupation as a nurse is never helpful in clarifying that I am indeed a dude, not a lady.



Never said you had to stop talking about it. Just that you shouldn't take your anger out on Sakurai.

Maybe it's because I always went into conspiracy theory mode whenever people brought up Bayo winning the ballot, but this isn't really shocking news to me. It was a pretty weird coincidence for Bayo to get chosen right after Nintendo displayed an interest in making her franchise exclusive to Nintendo consoles.

All this really did was reaffirm my suspicions and show myself that my skepticism was deserved. I'm not mad, and honestly, I'm actually relieved that Sakurai didn't ignore more popular characters like I initially thought he did.

My bad, I checked but this site's STILL whack as it wouldn't show up on my end

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I wouldn't be surprised if Snake was the number 1 choice overall in the ballot as he was singled out among the returning veterans as coming back due to fan demand. Sakurai also mentioned the top 5 ranking in the US includes previously playable characters.

 

[Nonno Umby]

If the deal fell through, any development time spent on Bayonetta would be wasted man-hours and more importantly wasted money. People can talk until they're blue in the face about whether it's legal or not to start development on a character without first obtaining the rights, but the simple truth is big companies don't like spending money when they don't have to. They'd secure the rights first.

We don't know when the actual development of Bayonetta has started. That datamine only proved that ZSS data was copied in another slot. It doesn't take any effort to do such operation, and after that they might started talking with Sega about Bayonetta.

Besides we know that Sakurai and Kamiya are friend since before Bayonetta was added, and that SEGA already allowed his mascot to be in the game. There really isn't any reason to suspect that they wouldn't have let Nintendo have the rights of Bayonetta, especially since they already own an entire game (of a 2 game franchise) with all its assets.

 

[Jak_spoon]

I'm wondering if any of you got promised a McDonald's trip as a primary school kid only for your parents to drive you to BurgerKing and go "You'll speak to my lawyers, this is misleading"

Fixed

 

[dezeray112]

So how many more 3rd Party characters does everyone think will be in the base roster?

I would say at least another one in the base roster and maybe at least another two more for DLC. But who knows at this point.

 

[ColietheGoalie]

All this ballot stuff isn't really that big of a deal.

1) The language is vague enough that no promises were broken
2) Adding their newly acquired toy as the "winner" and saving the other big hitters for the next game that they're starting makes a lot of business sense
3) We're going to likely get even more ballot consideration in this game, which is a win

Really, the only thing that's changed is that people who said a few years ago that Bayo winning seemed suspicious, only to get yelled at or called sore-losers, get a small sense of redemption. Just don't be jerks guys.

 

[Zippo]

Additionally, Nintendo did say that the ballot results would be used for future games, right?

I think of this whole thing as a "long-term promise", rather being mislead, honestly.
The ballot winners will be in Smash, no matter what.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Fixed

Not really as by saying Disneyland, it's obvious that the being deliberately misleading has benefits, in this case, more popular characters for the sequel

 

[papagenos]

We don't know when the actual development of Bayonetta has started. That datamine only proved that ZSS data was copied in another slot. It doesn't take any effort to do such operation, and after that they might started talking with Sega about Bayonetta.

Besides we know that Sakurai and Kamiya are friend since before Bayonetta was added, and that SEGA already allowed his mascot to be in the game. There really isn't any reason to suspect that they wouldn't have let Nintendo have the rights of Bayonetta, especially since they already own an entire game (of a 2 game franchise) with all its assets.

theres also the fact ZSS has heels at all... and that picture of her in front of the moon looking all bayonetta like.

i dont want to get too conspiracy theory here but theres even SOME evidence to believe bayo was intended FAR before the ballot at all, as in was always meant to be an eventual DLC character.

 

[Will]

The ballot winners will be in Smash, no matter what.

Oh boy I can't wait for Goku

 

[Murlough]

Oh boy I can't wait for Goku

Shrek is gonna be lit. (I unironically miss Super Slam)

 

[Idon]

Oh boy I can't wait for Goku

Nah, what about COREY BAXTER THOOOO

 

[N3ON]

Planning the ballot winner regardless of the ballot results is some shady ****, if true.

But as long as the ballot results actually get implemented, which they will (and have), I don't have the energy to get upset about it.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Oh boy I can't wait for Goku

Goku was already disqualified since the Smash ballot itself specified to vote for a video game character, so any votes for him would have been discarded.

 

[papagenos]

Planning the ballot winner regardless of the ballot results is some shady ****, if true.

But as long as the ballot results actually get implemented, which they will (and have), I don't have the energy to get upset about it.

this is how i feel, i'd have probably been mad a few years back if i found this out.

But with Ultimate coming out in a few months, all veterans returning, and what feels like 3 ballot picks already in (ridley,inklings, and daisy) i cant really be angry about them implementing the ballot in a way we THOUGHT it was for smash4 but was instead more for smash ultimate. at this point it seems like the better option and there was no "right" way for them to gather ballot data without announcing ultimate before smash4's DLC was even done which would have made smash4 feel obsolete instantly...

its shady yes, but in retrospect it was the only way to do this right.

 

[Will]

Goku was already disqualified since the Smash ballot itself specified to vote for a video game character, so any votes for him would have been discarded.

Oh boy can't wait for Xenoverse OC.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

You know, I've been thinking about a second-party (somewhat) related issue: Treasure has more or less been friends with Nintendo for a while now, right? Saki Amemiya should have all the chances in the world to make it beyond AT status, yet nothing happened with that. It's not like Treasure is even doing anything with their IPs anymore (beyond some involvement with rereleases), let alone S&P , so I wonder what's up.

It's important to note that most likely, not every character will be a ballot pick.

We will still probably have a few promotional and Sakurai picks.

It's just gonna be a balance.

(Same as Melee, Brawl and Smash 4, honestly.)

I'm thinking it'll be one third ballot choices, one third promotional picks and one third Sakurai silliness.

Oh boy I can't wait for Goku

Goku from Yuyuki?

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I updated my roster prediction:

Spoiler: My Roster

Spoiler: My Reasonings

This roster works off of some assumptions:

• When the roster was being decided, the Ballot was taken into account and played a major role in character decisions
  • Mii Costumes are evidence of Ballot success
• Echoes are being used to pad out the roster. Some Echoes were added later into development, or with knowledge of upcoming games.
• Sakurai's statement of "don't expect too many newcomers" is another half-truth, in that we're getting less unique newcomers, but a similar number including Echoes.

All that being said, here are my predictions:
Unique newcomers:
K. Rool: I know the argument for a character performing well in the Ballot is hogwash, but I seriously think K. Rool did well in the Ballot. Additionally, he could bring something unique to Smash Bros. as the heaviest character in the game. This is a Smash Bros. focused on fan-service, and K. Rool is a well requested character, at least to the point that he was acknowledged with a Mii Costume.
Ashley: She's Japan's Ridley. We got Ridley, they get Ashley. It's balanced, as all things should be. She also brings something unique to the table as a mage/spellcaster.
Geno: A former idea of Sakurai's and an overall well-requested character (was acknowledged as a Mii Costume). Now that Cloud/Final Fantasy is out of the way for Square Enix representation, Geno is the next in line. He's an angel-doll thing, and can morph his arms into cannons and use timed attacks for more damage.
Bandana Dee: A well requested character who has been prominent in recent years (especially around 2015 when the roster was decided) and uses a spear, a weapon unrepresented in Smash Bros.
Simon Belmont: An iconic third party representing the second half of the "Metroidvania" genre, and the last member of the Captain N Crew. I also think Konami pushed for his inclusion for Sakurai to get access to Snake (a part of the "risks" associated with the project). He could use a whip-based moveset alongside the items from Castlevania.
Leon Kennedy: BluePikmin11 brought up some good points about Leon Kennedy. I believe that part of "Ultimate" or "Special" is a culmination of gaming as a whole (Sakurai has confirmed that Smash is a celebration of gaming at this point, and I think this game is going to up the ante of that claim), and each third party pick reflects this. Leon Kennedy represents the entire horror genre through Resident Evil, the father of the horror genre, and is the character most associated with Nintendo in the series. Capcom is on board with Nintendo (they let Ridley murk Megaman in his reveal trailer. That's trust right there) this time, and after Mega Man and Street Fighter I think we'll see either Resident Evil or Monster Hunter. I'm betting on Resident Evil due to the iconic nature of the series and it's role in gaming history.
Elma: Not necessarily as popular as the other picks, but she has relevancy at the time of the roster being decided, Nintendo pushing for her series, has Sakurai supporting her, and she represents the Wii U era of Nintendo.
Lloyd Irving: We are seriously sleeping on Lloyd. He's been a popular-enough pick from Smash 4 speculation up until now, and was even acknowledged with a Mii costume. This reddit post makes some good points about Lloyd's potential inclusion.
Chorus Men: Again, Sakurai is revisiting former ideas, and the Chorus Men are one of those. Also, if Smash Ultimate is being built from Smash 4, then it's possible that the unused assets for the Chorus Men are being put to use for this game.
Chibi-Robo: Another character we're sleeping on. Chibi-Robo was relevant in 2015 with his new game Chibi Robo: Zip Lash releasing at the time. He's been a somewhat prominent series from the Gamecube to Switch era, and seems to have performed well enough in the ballot if this is any sort of indicator (it likely isn't, but it's something). He could definitely bring something to the roster, and is also the "WTF" pick (not necessarily because he is somewhat popular, but he fits the bill
Lip: The "retro" pick for this roster. Despite most "retro" picks being niche, Lip is actually quite popular both here and overseas (I'll again refer you to BluePikmin11 because he can explain it better than I will) and could have a moveset based off of the Panel de Pon series alongside her magical powers.

Echoes:
Dark Samus: I almost didn't include her in this roster, but I think with Metroid Prime 4 being in the works she would be added so that the game can be promoted. If she doesn't appear in the base roster, she'll likely be DLC of some sort to promote the game.
Chrom: The case for Chrom as an echo writes itself. He's a popular character (Mii costume) initially planned for Smash 4 (revisited idea) who was cut because he would be too similar to Marth and Ike. He was even told he'd be too similar to Ike in a Palutena's Guidance conversation.
Dixie Kong: Diddy Kong lost his attacks involving his tail. Coincidence? I think not! Dixie Kong is a popular character from a series that is long overdue for more characters. Her recent relevance (at the time of the roster being decided) in Donkey Kong Tropical Freeze also helps her.
Isabelle: Isabelle is a popular character who has been a prominent member of her series since her debut. She's similar enough to Villager that she would be easy to include and her inclusion would please a lot of people.
Ocotlings: With the recent release of the Octoling Expansion, I believe that Octolings are going to be a late inclusion meant to represent the now prominent Splatoon series and the recent Octoling Expansion.

Probably too wishful of thinking, but I think we could easily see a roster like this.

 

[Zeox]

Well, I'd pick Tails over either. *takes cover*

I wouldn't like to have more than one third party from each franchise, since I like it as a Nintendo all stars with some guests from other non Nintendo games.
But, if we got Tails I would be happy, he is my fav. Sonic character, so... couldn't complain about that.

 

[domriver]

You know what id like to talk about is on that interview with Famitisu(spelling?) Sakurai mentioned he had to twist some arms AND take risks? To get certain characters in. From the front I see Snake being as a twisted arms deal however for taking risks i cant imagine who - well because also we do not have the entire roster yet. What do you guys think he meant by that?
So for me the following is my take:
Snake : Twist Arms - Konami probably did not want to be apart of this - Nintendo probably said " If you can get them to agree"
Geno : Twist Arms - Negotiating terms with another company is always a hassle. Unsure about Nintendo themselves how they feel about Geno.
King K Rool : neutral - there shouldn't be any problems?
Simon Belmont: Twist Arms deal again licenses , contracts
Banjo-Kazooie: RISK - (promoting a character from a competitive company) Microsoft - Against Nintendo's recommendations regardless on how Microsoft feels about it.
Of course presuming the following are in the game.
What you people say? What did Sakurai mean by Risks and Twisting Arms?

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Planning the ballot winner regardless of the ballot results is some shady ****, if true.

But as long as the ballot results actually get implemented, which they will (and have), I don't have the energy to get upset about it.

post of the year.

I updated my roster prediction:

Spoiler: My Roster

View attachment 151304

Spoiler: My Reasonings

This roster works off of some assumptions:

• When the roster was being decided, the Ballot was taken into account and played a major role in character decisions
  • Mii Costumes are evidence of Ballot success
• Echoes are being used to pad out the roster. Some Echoes were added later into development, or with knowledge of upcoming games.
• Sakurai's statement of "don't expect too many newcomers" is another half-truth, in that we're getting less unique newcomers, but a similar number including Echoes.

All that being said, here are my predictions:
Unique newcomers:
K. Rool: I know the argument for a character performing well in the Ballot is hogwash, but I seriously think K. Rool did well in the Ballot. Additionally, he could bring something unique to Smash Bros. as the heaviest character in the game. This is a Smash Bros. focused on fan-service, and K. Rool is a well requested character, at least to the point that he was acknowledged with a Mii Costume.
Ashley: She's Japan's Ridley. We got Ridley, they get Ashley. It's balanced, as all things should be. She also brings something unique to the table as a mage/spellcaster.
Geno: A former idea of Sakurai's and an overall well-requested character (was acknowledged as a Mii Costume). Now that Cloud/Final Fantasy is out of the way for Square Enix representation, Geno is the next in line. He's an angel-doll thing, and can morph his arms into cannons and use timed attacks for more damage.
Bandana Dee: A well requested character who has been prominent in recent years (especially around 2015 when the roster was decided) and uses a spear, a weapon unrepresented in Smash Bros.
Simon Belmont: An iconic third party representing the second half of the "Metroidvania" genre, and the last member of the Captain N Crew. I also think Konami pushed for his inclusion for Sakurai to get access to Snake (a part of the "risks" associated with the project). He could use a whip-based moveset alongside the items from Castlevania.
Leon Kennedy: BluePikmin11 brought up some good points about Leon Kennedy. I believe that part of "Ultimate" or "Special" is a culmination of gaming as a whole (Sakurai has confirmed that Smash is a celebration of gaming at this point, and I think this game is going to up the ante of that claim), and each third party pick reflects this. Leon Kennedy represents the entire horror genre through Resident Evil, the father of the horror genre, and is the character most associated with Nintendo in the series. Capcom is on board with Nintendo (they let Ridley murk Megaman in his reveal trailer. That's trust right there) this time, and after Mega Man and Street Fighter I think we'll see either Resident Evil or Monster Hunter. I'm betting on Resident Evil due to the iconic nature of the series and it's role in gaming history.
Elma: Not necessarily as popular as the other picks, but she has relevancy at the time of the roster being decided, Nintendo pushing for her series, has Sakurai supporting her, and she represents the Wii U era of Nintendo.
Lloyd Irving: We are seriously sleeping on Lloyd. He's been a popular-enough pick from Smash 4 speculation up until now, and was even acknowledged with a Mii costume. This reddit post makes some good points about Lloyd's potential inclusion.
Chorus Men: Again, Sakurai is revisiting former ideas, and the Chorus Men are one of those. Also, if Smash Ultimate is being built from Smash 4, then it's possible that the unused assets for the Chorus Men are being put to use for this game.
Chibi-Robo: Another character we're sleeping on. Chibi-Robo was relevant in 2015 with his new game Chibi Robo: Zip Lash releasing at the time. He's been a somewhat prominent series from the Gamecube to Switch era, and seems to have performed well enough in the ballot if this is any sort of indicator (it likely isn't, but it's something). He could definitely bring something to the roster, and is also the "WTF" pick (not necessarily because he is somewhat popular, but he fits the bill
Lip: The "retro" pick for this roster. Despite most "retro" picks being niche, Lip is actually quite popular both here and overseas (I'll again refer you to BluePikmin11 because he can explain it better than I will) and could have a moveset based off of the Panel de Pon series alongside her magical powers.

Echoes:
Dark Samus: I almost didn't include her in this roster, but I think with Metroid Prime 4 being in the works she would be added so that the game can be promoted. If she doesn't appear in the base roster, she'll likely be DLC of some sort to promote the game.
Chrom: The case for Chrom as an echo writes itself. He's a popular character (Mii costume) initially planned for Smash 4 (revisited idea) who was cut because he would be too similar to Marth and Ike. He was even told he'd be too similar to Ike in a Palutena's Guidance conversation.
Dixie Kong: Diddy Kong lost his attacks involving his tail. Coincidence? I think not! Dixie Kong is a popular character from a series that is long overdue for more characters. Her recent relevance (at the time of the roster being decided) in Donkey Kong Tropical Freeze also helps her.
Isabelle: Isabelle is a popular character who has been a prominent member of her series since her debut. She's similar enough to Villager that she would be easy to include and her inclusion would please a lot of people.
Ocotlings: With the recent release of the Octoling Expansion, I believe that Octolings are going to be a late inclusion meant to represent the now prominent Splatoon series and the recent Octoling Expansion.

Probably too wishful of thinking, but I think we could easily see a roster like this.

that's a lotta optimism but i like the energy

 

[Deleted member]

Not gonna lie, it makes me a little mad to see people turning against Sakurai three weeks after he reveals Ridley and brings back every cut character.

The dude ain't perfect, but he's done some pretty spectacular things lately. Cut the guy some slack.

I know, right?
I am very thankful for his dedication and I will continue to love Sakurai.

I am really glad we got Ridley. I would be really happy to main him or co-main him.

 

[StormC]

Planning the ballot winner regardless of the ballot results is some shady ****, if true.

But as long as the ballot results actually get implemented, which they will (and have), I don't have the energy to get upset about it.

Pretty much. I'll get over my hurt feelings from three years ago if I can pick up the game at midnight with my Ridley and K. Rool Amiibos.

Not gonna lie, it makes me a little mad to see people turning against Sakurai three weeks after he reveals Ridley and brings back every cut character.

The dude ain't perfect, but he's done some pretty spectacular things lately. Cut the guy some slack.

Sakurai's going to get his new car payment from us buying this game. He'll live.

 

[papagenos]

You know what id like to talk about is on that interview with Famitisu(spelling?) Sakurai mentioned he had to twist some arms AND take risks? To get certain characters in. From the front I see Snake being as a twisted arms deal however for taking risks i cant imagine who - well because also we do not have the entire roster yet. What do you guys think he meant by that?
So for me the following is my take:
Snake : Twist Arms - Konami probably did not want to be apart of this - Nintendo probably said " If you can get them to agree"
Geno : Twist Arms - Negotiating terms with another company is always a hassle. Unsure about Nintendo themselves how they feel about Geno.
King K Rool : neutral - there shouldn't be any problems?
Simon Belmont: Twist Arms deal again licenses , contracts
Banjo-Kazooie: RISK - (promoting a character from a competitive company) Microsoft - Against Nintendo's recommendations regardless on how Microsoft feels about it.
Of course presuming the following are in the game.
What you people say? What did Sakurai mean by Risks and Twisting Arms?

Those all sound pretty likely the sort of deals he was talking about.

keep in mind though even K Rool or Geno might be seen from nintendo as odd "risky" choices as they may have no future... of course i'm in the camp where if the fan demand is there they get in smash then they are more likely to get a future in other things but I can see nintendo themselves being weirded out by sakurai asking for those characters even with fan demand. Nintendo can see smash fan demand as the "hardcore" player who will buy nintendo stuff anyway and would rather sakurai pick characters that will sell other current nintendo games so sakurai would have to make the case for those characters the fans want, this could be seen as twisting arms and risks etc... obviously konami and snake is probably the most obvious "controversial" chaarcter sakurai had to go out of his way to get us here.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

While they didn't state that you would expect that the winner of the ballot would you know be added in. (Of realistic choices)

Sure but because it was never flat said there's not much to hold against them. I'm really leaning toward they planned dlc, but out ballot for Ultimate and they had some crossover with Cloud and Bayonetta that they decided to market. Eh.

You know what id like to talk about is on that interview with Famitisu(spelling?) Sakurai mentioned he had to twist some arms AND take risks? To get certain characters in. From the front I see Snake being as a twisted arms deal however for taking risks i cant imagine who - well because also we do not have the entire roster yet. What do you guys think he meant by that?
So for me the following is my take:
Snake : Twist Arms - Konami probably did not want to be apart of this - Nintendo probably said " If you can get them to agree"
Geno : Twist Arms - Negotiating terms with another company is always a hassle. Unsure about Nintendo themselves how they feel about Geno.
King K Rool : neutral - there shouldn't be any problems?
Simon Belmont: Twist Arms deal again licenses , contracts
Banjo-Kazooie: RISK - (promoting a character from a competitive company) Microsoft - Against Nintendo's recommendations regardless on how Microsoft feels about it.
Of course presuming the following are in the game.
What you people say? What did Sakurai mean by Risks and Twisting Arms?

I saw some one mention this...I'm checking the article again but I think that was reffering to getting all the characters into the game. Sakurai speaks about getting all the veterans into the game as a massive undertaking and whether or not you think he's exaggerating I believe that's what he was reffering to.

Edit: Just checked. It's literally the sentence after mentioning getting all veterans in. He's reffering to that.

 

[Zerp]

Misleading is the word you're looking for, and I'll agree with that. Fraudulent would mean that the whole thing was bogus and that just isn't true. They didn't just throw out the results. From what I remember it said that the votes would be considered for future fighters in the Smash Franchise and was never strictly stated to have any form of confirmation that that character would appear in Smash 4. Bayonetta happened and it was stated that it was because of the ballot. There's no reason to doubt that fact. A very vague data mine that said ZSS was copied to slot 57 is no form of confirmation that she was preplanned before the ballot.

Yeah, you're right, misleading is a better word for it, sorry. Also yeah, the datamine isn't blatant 100% confirmation but the implication I'm getting from it is that they chose ZSS because she was the most similar build to Bayonetta, she was just picked out too early and it's too big of a coincidence for me to not read into, and this last part goes into conspiracy land but I'm going to throw it out there again, remember this?

Spoiler

This is Zero Suit Samus's congratulations screen, this doesn't mean "lol Bayonetta confirmed a fraud" but I do think it at least shows us that Bayonetta was on Sakurai's mind at the time.

There are a metric **** ton of direct rip models for The Wonderful 101 in Smash 4. It's more likely that's the reason he was there.

Good point, that makes a lot of sense.

Calling it scummy is like comparing their use of a voting ballot to the microtransactions fiesta of EA's Battlefront II. Misleading is the word we should be using. And sure, maybe it was.

Eh, I still find it "scummy", obviously not to the level of the things EA does though, haha. Not sure how harsh the word scummy is supposed to be but let me make it clear that I don't hate Nintendo/Sakurai for this, I just think it's not nice of them.

I don't consider discussing how Nintendo cheesed the ballot to get Bayo in counts as turning against Sakurai. Nintendo is a buisness, this whole thing was a business plot, Nintendo willingly mislead it's audience to promote Bayonetta. This is worth talking about.

Everyone in this discussion has expressed genuine disdain for taking any of this to Sakurai or even other websites, so you're going to have to explain to me how discussing something Smash related on a website created for the sole purpose of discussing Smash counts as turning on Sakurai and saying he's a terrible person or whatever. Talking about this does not suddenly mean we hate Sakurai or we're going to boycott Ultimate. Sakurai works his balls off for this fanbase but that does not suddenly mean Nintendo is absolved from any and all criticism.

If you're saying we should stop talking about it just because some people don't appreciate what Nintendo did than that's a hard disagreement from me.

I completely agree with you.

You know what id like to talk about is on that interview with Famitisu(spelling?) Sakurai mentioned he had to twist some arms AND take risks? To get certain characters in. From the front I see Snake being as a twisted arms deal however for taking risks i cant imagine who - well because also we do not have the entire roster yet. What do you guys think he meant by that?
So for me the following is my take:
Snake : Twist Arms - Konami probably did not want to be apart of this - Nintendo probably said " If you can get them to agree"
Geno : Twist Arms - Negotiating terms with another company is always a hassle. Unsure about Nintendo themselves how they feel about Geno.
King K Rool : neutral - there shouldn't be any problems?
Simon Belmont: Twist Arms deal again licenses , contracts
Banjo-Kazooie: RISK - (promoting a character from a competitive company) Microsoft - Against Nintendo's recommendations regardless on how Microsoft feels about it.
Of course presuming the following are in the game.
What you people say? What did Sakurai mean by Risks and Twisting Arms?

The risks are the reactions he knows will becoming alongside the thirteen Fire Emblem characters he's revealing next direct./s

I think it was Snake, because Konami itself is a PR risk for everyone involved with it.

Now, I will play Devil's Advocate here because I am firmly in the camp that Bayonetta was planned well before the ballot, but on the topic of securing rights: there's obviously a lot of legal stuff that has to go into a deal like this, and that takes times. But Sakurai is a well known, well respected game developer with connections and friends across many different studios, and, as happens, sometimes all it takes is a single phone call or lunch date for someone in that position to the get the "unofficially official" go ahead. And then the legal team does their job while the creative side does theirs.

Yeah, I have no trouble believeing that Sakurai could convince nearly anyone to give him the rights to insertcharacterhere easily, it's him and Super Smash Bros. after all, who would even want to say no?

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Planning the ballot winner regardless of the ballot results is some shady ****, if true.

But as long as the ballot results actually get implemented, which they will (and have), I don't have the energy to get upset about it.

Feeling's mutual. Besides, most of us likely cheated with the voting anyway.

 

[Deleted member]

Sakurai's going to get his new car payment from us buying this game. He'll live.

Look, I understand Sakurai could care less if I say he is a good man, but....
It feels good to show love to the person who created a game you really like in front of everyone to show you support for Sakurai.

I understand why you would say that, you are right. It is not like giving support is useless, however.

 

[StormC]

Look, I understand Sakurai could care less if I say he is a good man, but....
It feels good to show love to the person who created a game you really like in front of everyone to show you support for Sakurai.

I understand why you would say that, you are right. It is not like giving support is useless, however.

I think Sakurai is a great developer and he is very good at making games I want to buy and play. I know little to nothing about him as a person, but as a person, he deserves the bare minimum respect. He is also a professional and one of the most esteemed developers in the industry; people criticizing him on a video game forum he will never read is not going to affect his life. Nobody is saying he's evil or awful or he should piss off.

He should be praised for what he does right. Being criticized for what he does wrong doesn't cancel that out. If you can't look critically at the products and art you enjoy, you're doing yourself a disservice as a consumer.

 

[Wambo]

Hey all. What'd I miss?

We still talking about the ballot thing?

 

[Zerp]

Real talk, I don't have anything against Sakurai, but I feel like a lot of us idolize him and that isn't healthy. Yes he makes us our favorite games, but he can do wrong, he is a human, and there isn't anything wrong with pointing that out.

Edit: 'd lol

 

[Polan]

i always find it funny that everytime bayo and the ballot are brought up, everyone proceeds to act like she wasn't a popular character from a critically acclaimed title with a growing fanbase amongst nintendo fans. from the way people talk about her inclusion you get the impression that no one voted for her and that she was a cynical marketing pick that no one wanted all while her fanbase is conveniently shoved under the rug and ignored.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Planning the ballot winner regardless of the ballot results is some shady ****, if true.

But as long as the ballot results actually get implemented, which they will (and have), I don't have the energy to get upset about it.

People have been making a little bit of a leap in logic here insofar as that they're assuming Bayonetta specifically was planned ahead of time. It's very likely that they were planning to prop up whichever already-planned DLC character got the most votes.
I guess "realizable" means "already made."

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

So how many more 3rd Party characters does everyone think will be in the base roster?

Maybe a couple more. Any others will be saved for DLC.

 

[Idon]

i always find it funny that everytime bayo and the ballot are brought up, everyone proceeds to act like she wasn't a popular character from a critically acclaimed title with a growing fanbase amongst nintendo fans. from the way people talk about her inclusion you get the impression that no one voted for her and that she was a cynical marketing pick that no one wanted all while her fanbase is conveniently shoved under the rug and ignored.

It's not that she isn't popular in her own right.
It's that there are more popular roster picks than her.