Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Deleted member]

The biggest reason why people often get caught off-guard when it comes to the character roster is due to clinging on to fan assumptions and assuming they are facts before being surprised.

Sounds familiar.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Full disclosure not the biggest DK fan, but what games up to 2007 are you reffering to? Because the two I found, DK Climber and Barrell Blast Dixie is also playable so... And the fact that she has become relevant again is helpful to her.

Sorry I'm not advocating for either I'd be happy with whoever I just felt like you were skewing his relevancy compared to Dixie.

Edit: This Dixie vs. King K. Rool debate is moving too fast for me lol so since I'm not invested I'll just observe.


While the 3D world thing is true the point of my list is to see which characters Sakurai picks based on their ability to be playable in their own series. Since he chose Rosalina in 2012 3D world would not have effected his choice.

But yes since then she's had playable appearances in and out main games.

Don’t forget those good old Mario Kart games (Wii and 7...maybe Arcade aswell)

 

[osby]

Well, the roster isn't gonna be all fanservice. Just because a character is popular amongst the fanbase does not mean that they will get in the game.

I agree but I think in this game unique moveset potential and recency might play a smaller role. I think we'll still get suprises but most of the newcomers will be the ones who commonly talked about.

 

[MasterWarlord]

Full disclosure not the biggest DK fan, but what games up to 2007 are you reffering to? Because the two I found, DK Climber and Barrell Blast Dixie is also playable so... And the fact that she has become relevant again is helpful to her.

Sorry I'm not advocating for either I'd be happy with whoever I just felt like you were skewing his relevancy compared to Dixie.

DKC1 and its various remakes/demakes and DK64 are the direct, important games where K. Rool appears and Dixie does not.

Jungle Climber/King of Swing have Dixie "playable", yes, but only in multiplayer. In the story of King of Swing, Dixie gets a cameo in a shot of the entire DK cast and then never appears again, and she doesn't appear at all in Jungle Climber's story. In King of Swing, the entire cast is playable in extra modes, because it's a very casual sprite change for a very simplistic game. The only relevant characters in the story are DK, Diddy, K. Rool, and Cranky.

 

[Megadoomer]

Well, the roster isn't gonna be all fanservice. Just because a character is popular amongst the fanbase does not mean that they will get in the game.

Popularity does seem like it's going to play a role - that's what got Ridley in after over a decade of him being left out for one reason or another.

The bigger issue is that it's hard to say for sure which characters are popular - a lot of websites tend to focus on what's popular within their own bubble, so characters that are popular here might not be popular on Reddit, GameFAQs, etc., let alone the people who don't participate in discussion dedicated to Smash online.

 

[RileyXY1]

I agree but I think in this game unique moveset potential and recency might play a smaller role. I think we'll still get suprises but most of the newcomers will be the ones who commonly talked about.

I don't think that way. If they used fanservice as a major factor than Waluigi would've gotten in and not Daisy.

 

[MasterWarlord]

K. Rool supporters should really stop using Geno as an example for why relevancy doesn't matter. This argument sounds like Geno was never rejected at all and he's already in Smash.

As a K. Rool supporter I still find it stupid that people tie him to that character. If anything, I see this as a more common practice from detractors than supporters. His long history of games is apparently equal to being in a single game because he has generically not appeared in the latest game.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't think that way. If they used fanservice as a major factor than Waluigi would've gotten in and not Daisy.

That's not a very good argument considering Daisy is an Echo that didn't take much development time while Waluigi would've been a unique character if he were added.

 

[RileyXY1]

Popularity does seem like it's going to play a role - that's what got Ridley in after over a decade of him being left out for one reason or another.

The bigger issue is that it's hard to say for sure which characters are popular - a lot of websites tend to focus on what's popular within their own bubble, so characters that are popular here might not be popular on Reddit, GameFAQs, etc., let alone the people who don't participate in discussion dedicated to Smash online.

Just because one character was added because of fanservice does not mean that they all will. Sakurai himself once said "A Smash with only popular characters doesn't excite me."

 

[osby]

I don't think that way. If they used fanservice as a major factor than Waluigi would've gotten in and not Daisy.

Some of her fans exaggarate her popularity but I'd say she is close to Waluigi in popularity. Also she's canon, so that's a plus.

 

[Deleted member]

Watching the Direct doesn't necessitate interacting with online Smash communities. The Direct was all someone needed to vote in the ballot, nothing more. The Trends thing is irrelevant for the reason I noted above. It doesn't necessarily show SUPPORT.

And that last bit is incredibly dishonest. For a Wii U game Tropical Freeze did pretty damn well, so to say that's not a factor is completely revisionist.

You can't tell me that after receiving an incredible amount of attention during the Ballot, by far the most he's ever gotten, none of it translated to ballot votes. After all of his apperances on articles, blog posts, videos, and description of what he can do, that spike definitely indicate that a lot of people interested enough in googling King K. Rool became interested in him as a newcomer.

"For a Wii U game?" It still sold far less than DKC 1-3, DK64, and DKCR, three of which she did not appear in. It's like arguing that Bayonetta 2 sold well because it was on the Wii U even though that Bayonetta is the antithesis of casual that only survives because Nintendo props her up.

 

[MasterWarlord]

Waluigi's campaign could not have been worse timed. An uprising for him and an active movement to get him into Smash after he is deconfirmed? Why? This could've actually done something if it had happened after he was deconfirmed for SSB4 rather than SSB5, but it's doubtful we will get another ballot again.

If any character was supported by a silent majority of casuals, though, it was probably Waluigi. Look where that got him.

 

[CannonStreak]

K. Rool supporters should really stop using Geno as an example for why relevancy doesn't matter. This argument sounds like Geno was never rejected at all and he's already in Smash.

And why does it matter if Geno didn't get in? The fact is, he is a character who has not appeared in a game (aside from a cameo in that one Mario and Luigi game) in over 20 years, and yet he was wanted by Sakurai and considered for Brawl and Smash 4 anyways. I don't think not getting in matters that much as he was considered in the first place. Plus, say he did get into one of those games, and he returned to Smash Ultimate right about now. He'd still would not appear in a game other than Smash Bros. right about now for over 20 years, and people would probably ask who the heck Geno was if they didn't play Mario RPG or the Smash game he would have appeared in. Thing is, he'd still lack recent appearances outside of Smash if he was in a Smash game before just like K. Rool (whether or not K. Rool was in a Smash game before as well), and even though both are not in, that does not mean they won't get in due to a lack of recency. Plus, compared to Geno, K. Rool still is an important, main villain who has made some appearances, and is iconic in a way. If it weren't for Sakurai wanting Geno in the first place, he would probably not be considered at all. The fact is, Sakurai did want him, even though he didn't make it in, and I don't see how K. Rool should be a different situation from Geno here.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Don’t forget those good old Mario Kart games (Wii and 7...maybe Arcade aswell)

See my point on Bowser and Daisy. I'm not counting spinoff titles for characters who have larger roles in main series games, Daisy is an exception because at the time of her announcement she was primarily a spin off game character.

And why does it matter if Geno didn't get in? The fact is, he is a character who has not appeared in a game (aside from a cameo in that one Mario and Luigi game) in over 20 years, and yet he was wanted by Sakurai and considered for Brawl and Smash 4 anyways. I don't think not getting in matters that much as he was considered in the first place. Plus, say he did get into one of those games, and he returned to Smash Ultimate right about now. He'd still would not appear in a game other than Smash Bros. right about now for over 20 years, and people would probably ask who the heck Geno was if they didn't play Mario RPG or the Smash game he would have appeared in. Thing is, he'd still lack recent appearances outside of Smash if he was in a Smash game before just like K. Rool (whether or not K. Rool was in a Smash game before as well), and even though both are not in, that does not mean they won't get in due to a lack of recency. Plus, compared to Geno, K. Rool still is an important, main villain who has made some appearances, and is iconic in a way. If it weren't for Sakurai wanting Geno in the first place, he would probably not be considered at all. The fact is, Sakurai did want him, even though he didn't make it in, and I don't see how K. Rool should be a different situation from Geno here.

You're probably gunna get a ton on this so I'll put it short. It's the same as comparing to Krystal's situation, it doesn't bode well for playable characters.

At the end of the day Geno wasn't chosen. So that doesn't actually say anything for King K. Rool's chances. It just means Sakurai might consider him, which honestly I don't think anyone here is arguing. And sure Geno could be in Ultimate but uh since we don't know that yet you can't really use it as evidence lol.

 

[MainJPW]

Some of her fans exaggarate her popularity but I'd say she is close to Waluigi in popularity. Also she's canon, so that's a plus.

Canon? You mean Mario doesn’t go karting or plays tennis with his enemies?

 

[Wyoming]

Actually, we’re talking about the Ballot.

Guess what?

It was online.



And if you had an actual data indicating that they voted for a different set of characters than Nintnedo’s base, that argument might actually matter.

But you don’t.

Oh, and go on and tell me that kids don’t know K. Rool because his games were before their time.

I have the entire Melee community just waiting to tell you how older and less technically proficient games are drawing ever increasing numbers of new players, including young ones.

The ballot being online changes nowt. Not everyone who went online to vote visits Smash websites lol.

As for "casual mythic" people voting for memes (not you, someone else said that) that is a gross exaggeration. Bayonetta amd Cloud are the characters we actually know scored highly in the ballot and they were seen as niche or unlikely on Smash websites.

Your people as examples are a nice sample, but not conclusive.

And yes naturally kids won't know K. Rool more than older players. That goes without saying. Less exposure to their games by convenient/traditional ways = less chance to play a game he is in. Dixie has that advantage of potentially having both easier. That does not mean she does, but she certainly has the tools by her side to obtain more votes.

And K. Rool is my most wanted newcomer, by the way. No bias here.

 

[Skyblade12]

Just because one character was added because of fanservice does not mean that they all will. Sakurai himself once said "A Smash with only popular characters doesn't excite me."

He also said “we believe that’s what fans wanted, so we made the impossible possible” with regards to bringing back every veteran.

Guess what? My quote is more “relevant” than yours.

 

[Chandeelure]

"Canon" is so stupid.

It's a videogame, it doesn't have to make sense.

 

[Deleted member]

Waluigi's campaign could not have been worse timed. An uprising for him and an active movement to get him into Smash after he is deconfirmed? Why? This could've actually done something if it had happened after he was deconfirmed for SSB4 rather than SSB5, but it's doubtful we will get another ballot again.

If any character was supported by a silent majority of casuals, though, it was probably Waluigi. Look where that got him.

If anything, this is the best opportunity for disconfirmed characters to make a big deal for next game. With the character scene becoming rather barren, he could be one of the most wanted characters.

Unfortunately this requires planning, organization, and discipline, none of which most Waluigi fans have. That or most of them were disappointed for like five seconds but moved on because they were casual fans who liked him but weren't invested in him. If Waluigi is ever going to get one, someone who cares enough has to take the bull by the horn and lead the movement for years.

 

[Deleted member]

Could Dora the Explorer actually get in the game to attract younger audiences because she hits all the criterias that Sonic and Mega man hit or is Nintendo not that bad and she has her own games or is that just stupid to consider

 

[MasterOfKnees]

I don't really see the K. Rool - Krystal comparison making sense, Krystal was very popular back in the Brawl days yes, but not nearly as much as K. Rool is now, she was amongst the top 3 most popular suggestions that didn't make it in (behind Geno and Ridley), K. Rool is at least amongst the top 3 most popular suggestions overall, and maybe even #1 (although the recent Waluigi craze does make me doubtful).

It's just a wait and see scenario, I don't think we can compare his situation to any previous ones, he finds himself in a unique spot as it's very rare that an irrelevant character gets so popular, only Geno has managed that before but he also had the 3rd party hurdle on top of that. I'm optimistic myself, I just don't think that Sakurai gets so caught up on any of his general points as people suggest, if K. Rool ticks every other box than relevancy that's probably good enough, not every newcomer ever has ticked all the boxes. I'm also pretty sure Ridley would have made it in even if Other M had been the most recent title, Samus Returns isn't what pushed him in.

Am I 100% confident in his chances? No, but I'm still very optimistic.

 

[Deleted member]

Could Dora the Explorer actually get in the game to attract younger audiences because she hits all the criterias that Sonic and Mega man hit or is Nintendo not that bad and she has her own games or is that just stupid to consider

Short answer: No
Long answer: Noooooooooooooooooooooo

 

[MasterWarlord]

Bayonetta amd Cloud are the characters we actually know scored highly in the ballot and they were seen as niche or unlikely on Smash websites.

Cloud was said to be "the highest scoring Final Fantasy character." That's not a particularly large accomplishment in this context. If he had a more definitive statement of him doing well in general, Sakurai would've said so.

 

[osby]

"Canon" is so stupid.

It's a videogame, it doesn't have to make sense.

If a game takes itself seriously, it does need to make sense. Granted, Mario generally doesn't.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I don't really see the K. Rool - Krystal comparison making sense, Krystal was very popular back in the Brawl days yes, but not nearly as much as K. Rool is now, she was amongst the top 3 most popular suggestions that didn't make it in (behind Geno and Ridley), K. Rool is at least amongst the top 3 most popular suggestions overall, and maybe even #1 (although the recent Waluigi craze does make me doubtful).

It's just a wait and see scenario, I don't think we can compare his situation to any previous ones, he finds himself in a unique spot as it's very rare that an irrelevant character gets so popular, only Geno has managed that before but he also had the 3rd party hurdle on top of that. I'm optimistic myself, I just don't think that Sakurai gets so caught up on any of his general points as people suggest, if K. Rool ticks every other box than relevancy that's probably good enough, not every newcomer ever has ticked all the boxes. Like, I'm pretty sure Ridley would have made it in even if Other M had been the most recent title, Samus Returns isn't what pushed him in.

Ridley didn't even have recency at the time the roster was being conceptualised in December 2015 due to his last major appearance being in 2010. And when it comes to recency, Sakurai himself has stated that what is recent around the time he starts designing a game is what's important. Given there is no sign of Samus Returns content in Ultimate, Ridley's inclusion has nothing to do with recency and but rather with fan requests since that is the reason explicitly stated by Sakurai.

 

[Deleted member]

The biggest problem with the dumb "silent majority" argument in regards to K. Rool is that the likes of Geno and Pit (before he was even playable in Brawl) were acknowledged as popular characters among the general Smash fanbase, despite the fact Geno's only major appearance was in a 1996 game and Pit's only major appearance in a well-selling game before Brawl was in 1986. The latter character even got in Brawl because of his Smash popularity.

The biggest reason why people often get caught off-guard when it comes to the character roster is due to clinging on to fan assumptions and assuming they are facts before being surprised.

The thing about Pit is that he got a fair bit of attention while he was a new thing, he had two games and also starred in a campy Captain N TV show. It's not surprising that a lot of people who remember Pit from back then supported him for Brawl.


I'll give you Geno though. It's why I want to see if Sakurai will actually get Geno this time even though that I am near certain that won't happen.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Ridley didn't even have recency at the time the roster was being conceptualised in December 2015 due to his last major appearance being in 2010. And when it comes to recency, Sakurai himself has stated that what is recent around the time he starts designing a game is what's important. Given there is no sign of Samus Returns content in Ultimate, Ridley's inclusion has nothing to do with recency and but rather with fan requests since that is the reason explicitly stated by Sakurai.

To be fair Ridley was relevant in the most recent Metroid game at the time. King K. Rool wasn't, and still isn't.

As a Ridley fan I don't like when people compare his relevancy to King K. Rool. He's way more relevant in his series, to the point of being brought back from the dead multiple times lol.

(I'm not against King K. Rool don't attack me please. Just defending my space baby)

 

[True Blue Warrior]

To be fair Ridley was relevant in the most recent Metroid game at the time. King K. Rool wasn't, and still isn't.

As a Ridley fan I don't like when people compare his relevancy to King K. Rool. He's way more relevant in his series, to the point of being brought back from the dead multiple times lol.

(I'm not against King K. Rool don't attack me please. Just defending my space baby)

My post wasn't even comparing Ridley to K. Rool as much as countering the assumption that 2017 titles factor in terms of recency for Ultimate newcomers.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Also yea I've always thought we won't get more F-Zero characters because moveset potential. Now the series is basically dead and Samurai Gorih who arguably has the best moveset potential is deconfirmed.

At this point the only ways it would get more characters in is if 1) there's enough Western support on future ballots (since the series appeals more overseas) and 2) eventually running out of characters to include from other series (which is looking unlikely at this stage). Needless to say, the former will take a while…

But on the bright side, you do actually get to punch out Goroh this time.

Canon? You mean Mario doesn’t go karting or plays tennis with his enemies?

Don't overthink it, canon in the Mario series is about as fluid as the ocean. Peach's castle alone changes constantly. Granted, the only solid things are that Paper Mario and M&L are separate universes, and the main Mario universe crashed and rebooted at one point.

 

[Skyblade12]

To be fair Ridley was relevant in the most recent Metroid game at the time. King K. Rool wasn't, and still isn't.

As a Ridley fan I don't like when people compare his relevancy to King K. Rool. He's way more relevant in his series, to the point of being brought back from the dead multiple times lol.

(I'm not against King K. Rool don't attack me please. Just defending my space baby)

Incorrect. Ridley did not appear in Federation Force.

But thank you for playing.

 

[Opossum]

You can't tell me that after receiving an incredible amount of attention during the Ballot, by far the most he's ever gotten, none of it translated to ballot votes. After all of his apperances on articles, blog posts, videos, and description of what he can do, that spike definitely indicate that a lot of people interested enough in googling King K. Rool became interested in him as a newcomer.

"For a Wii U game?" It still sold far less than DKC 1-3, DK64, and DKCR, three of which she did not appear in. It's like arguing that Bayonetta 2 sold well because it was on the Wii U even though that Bayonetta is the antithesis of casual that only survives because Nintendo props her up.

I'm not saying it didn't matter at all. I'm a firm believer it was because of his support that he got a Mii costume. Always have been. I'm skeptical of the degree to which it helped, and of using Google Trends to inaccurately "debunk" the concept of a silent majority. And once again, you don't need to read things like articles or blog posts to vote on the ballot. All you needed to do was watch the Direct. The ballot wasn't only voted on by hardcore fans.

And no, all it indicated was that they searched for K. Rool. It was likely that a lot of it was just "who is K. Rool" after his costume was announced. That doesn't mean there was a lot of love at first sight and they voted him in. If anything being a Mii costume may have stopped people from voting him in.

And Smash 4 Wii U is the worst selling Smash game by far solely because of the system it was on. People still voted in the ballot, and Dixie had major presence in both Tropical Freeze's advertising and in its gameplay, especially since she was objectively the best Kong buddy. You can't arbitrarily discount Tropical Freeze because it hurts K. Rool.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Well, the roster isn't gonna be all fanservice. Just because a character is popular amongst the fanbase does not mean that they will get in the game.

Elma confirmed.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Incorrect. Ridley did not appear in Federation Force.

But thank you for playing.

We don't speak about that game.

Edit: Also the original post reffered to December 2015 and Federation Force came out August 2016 Soooooo GET OUTTA HERE WITH YOUR BAD GAME!

 

[Skyblade12]

We don't speak about that game.

I’d rather speak about it than Other M.

 

[AlphaSSB]

I mentioned the protagonist thing and this sort of interested me, how many characters were not truly playable in their series at the time of their addition to the series.

Well here you go:
13 characters or just under 20% of the cast.

Bowser was playable in the Mario Kart series before his inclusion in Melee.

Falco was playable in Star Fox 64's multiplayer before his inclusion in Melee

Wolf was playable in Star Fox: Assault's multiplayer before his inclusion in Brawl.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Bowser was playable in the Mario Kart series before his inclusion in Melee.

Falco was playable in Star Fox 64's multiplayer before his inclusion in Melee

Wolf was playable in Star Fox: Assault's multiplayer before his inclusion in Brawl.

I wrote in that post why I didn't include Bowser.

As for Falco and Wolf....I'm gunna keep it the same. Either way it just shows that Sakurai generally uses playable characters.

 

[92MilesPrower]

Bowser was playable in the Mario Kart series before his inclusion in Melee.

Pretty sure "truly playable in their series" doesn't count Mario Kart, a spinoff of the main Mario games.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

I known people who don't interact on smash online communities and still voted in the ballot. People can show support of a character and still vote for someone ELSE they want. Some people just find it annoying when people talk about their most wanted character and constantly claim they're the most popular character / deserving character to be in Smash (becomest annoying over time) or that the character is topping all the Fan-Made polls (as if they don't have bias). I voted for Snake in the ballot and no one talked about Snake and only dismissed him. During the ballot; I never heard any relevant discussion about Bayonetta on smash boards; instead it was just about K.K Rool, Isaac, Geno, Wolf, Krystal, Bandanna Dee and other characters that I forgot about. Bayonetta was rarely mentioned about from my experience and clearly topped the polls in some fashion in the actual ballot. I actually have little attachment to characters not already in Smash so I don't really care who gets in Smash as long as they're competitively viable and thus I admit I have a small bias against super-heavyweight characters. I despise clones / echoe's from a competitive standpoint and wish for new and fresh characters. Nothing hurts more than getting a character you want in only to find out they're bottom tier or low tier in the game. If you're casual then this doesn't apply to you of course; but don't be mad if the character is never / rarely showcased at t higher levels of play if you spectate. I don't mind if any character was to get in.

The only base newcomer in Smash 4 that actually was Top Tier from the very beginning was Rosalina ().

Everyone else was either bad (), mediocre (:ultrobin) or average () and still are bad, average, or mediocre. It was only until DLC () when newcomers actually became good with 3 of them (Cloud (destroys most characters), Bayonetta (do I even need to explain this?, Ryu) being classified as Top Tier (2 of them are the BEST characters in the game), Corrin as high tier and Mewtwo (Veteran but DLC who's Top Tier after getting the most ridiculous amount of buffs in the game).

Clearly the best condition for your wanted character is to obviously advocate for them to get in as DLC so they will be high-tier or Top Tier.... at least for me :D
........
:D

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Was MegaMan the third in that one? I feel like I've heard different version (one was an elite four with Mewtwo as the champion lol).

I'd always used Mewtwo, Ridley, and K.Rool as the big ones in Sm4sh speculation. And of course, none got in vanilla...

With Ultimate, we've got two, so one to go!

 

[Jetsurge]

Well, the roster isn't gonna be all fanservice. Just because a character is popular amongst the fanbase does not mean that they will get in the game.

Maybe say with a character like Isaac but K. Rool's popularity was acknowledged by the team with his mii costume alonngside an updated design and not long after the that the project plan for this game was completed. It's very likely he's in.