Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[TheLastJinjo]

I like that Young Link is back, and with the differences Toon Link got when he first showed up (plus his floatiness and new Fsmash now) while Young Link keeps all of the Melee Link quirks, the 3 Links stand out decently from each other now I think.

Love seeing a Link having the rapid jab back too.

It's also good to bring him back, because there's probably a lot of kids who grew up with Ocarina of Time 3D & Majora's Mask 3D. It's pretty good timing.

 

[Opossum]

I mean I suppose I could tip toe around your sensibilities, but I think my frustration is pretty justified when I'm being condescended to for the hundredth time by someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.

If you go around yelling about how you smell ****, you may want to check the bottom of your own shoe.

Have some tact, Noah.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

I'm not going to get into the Ganondorf debate because I've seen it beaten to death here, but if you can see the possibility of a wizard who had never previously punched in any form being made into a clone of a brawler, BUT can't see the possibility of two similarly shaped hedgehog who play near identical to each other in their games (specifically refrencing Sonic Adventure 2 because that's the one I'm most familiar with) than I no longer understand the context of this discussion.

Am I the only one who's at a loss of understanding here lol? Or is it just me and I should've seen Ganondorf as a Captain Falcon clone coming but should be surprised at Shadow being a Sonic clone?

Not only that game, but Sonic Heroes, Sonic 06 has them share a very similar movepool too, Forces, and even Rivals, I believe.

It's the fatal flaw of canonically being very similar to Sonic. Fast-paced gameplay with punches, kicks, and a Spin Dash + Homing Attack combo nearly everyone in the verse can do, but with an added flair to them through Chaos Powers that merely add projectiles, an AoE attack, and an increase in stats with a teleport (albeit Sonic can also teleport and Hyper mode in Fighters essentially increases stats too, with the tornado and wind attacks he's had before also covering the divide in their movesets).

 

[Jedisupersonic]

His inclusion doesn't bother me now that Link got some changes, but it annoys me how people want to act like he's the same as a unique newcomer. "Young Link returned and that's still not enough for Zelda fans?! Jeez, these guys are impossible to please."

Happy that people who liked him got him back, but he's not quite all I'd like to see from the franchise.

I'd never go that far, I do hope we get someone new from Zelda this time, i'm not the BIGGEST Zelda fan (more casual) but I do feel we need one or two more.

Plus I love how the Zelda characters all play in Smash.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Kind of weird that Toon Link still has Triforce Slash. I hope it's not the same for Young Link. I really wanna see Fierce Deity. Even if he just puts on the mask before performing Triforce Slash, that would be good enough for me.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

On the topic of Sonic's moves being "too goofy" for Shadow, a reminder that Daisy has never been depicted with the ability to float in a Mario game, nor do the Toads serve her (Toads are residents of Mushroom Kingdom, Toads are not in Sarasaland), yet she became a 1:1 clone of Peach anyway with her floating intact and with her own Toads. When it comes to deciding clones, the most important thing is "can this character mechanically work as a clone of this other preexisting playable character?". Everything else such as source accuracy is completely secondary. Ganondorf became a clone of Captain Falcon in Melee because he shared the same body build of a tall lean muscular man, thus you could map Ganondorf to Captain Falcon's skeleton and have him do all of Captain Falcon's moves without any technical issues.

When it comes to Shadow, you can make him a 1:1 clone of Sonic without any technical issues as they're built pretty much exactly the same, and thus it remains a real possibility. Now if Sega says no to it is an entirely different matter, but as long as it has Sega's approval, Sakurai can make Shadow as much of a clone as he wants.

 

[KMDP]

but how do people feel about Young Link coming back. I was never expecting it, but it's pretty cool. Actually kind of makes Toon Link look more interesting by contrast.

I was cool with it even before Ultimate, I had been thinking for years that Young Link would be pretty different from Link and Toon Link if brought back unchanged.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I'm not going to get into the Ganondorf debate because I've seen it beaten to death here, but if you can see the possibility of a wizard who had never previously punched in any form being made into a clone of a brawler, BUT can't see the possibility of two similarly shaped hedgehog who play near identical to each other in their games (specifically refrencing Sonic Adventure 2 because that's the one I'm most familiar with) than I no longer understand the context of this discussion.

Am I the only one who's at a loss of understanding here lol? Or is it just me and I should've seen Ganondorf as a Captain Falcon clone coming but should be surprised at Shadow being a Sonic clone?

The argument comes from whether or not Shadow would be classified as an "Echo Fighter"

Dr. Mario is just Mario in a different outfit, right? Well, no. Dr. Mario is not classified as an Echo Fighter. He's extremely similar to Mario, but it's all of those little differences.

I mean, my personal opinion is that Dr. Mario AND Shadow should be classified as Echo fighters. But, that seems to be reserved for characters that are almost entirely identical. Even Dr. Mario isn't identical enough to get the epsilon symbol.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Y'know what would be rad as hell? If Young Link's Final Smash was his Focus Attack from Hyrule Warriors

Video is outdated in terms of all the HW characters but I think I timestamped it right

 

[TheLastJinjo]

On the topic of Sonic's moves being "too goofy" for Shadow, a reminder that Daisy has never been depicted with the ability to float in a Mario game, nor do the Toads serve her (Toads are residents of Mushroom Kingdom, Toads are not in Sarasaland), yet she became a 1:1 clone of Peach anyway with her floating and with her own Toads. When it comes to deciding clones, the most important thing is "can this character mechanically work as a clone of this other preexisting playable character?". Everything else such as source accuracy is completely secondary. Ganondorf became a clone of Captain Falcon in Melee, because he shared the same body build of a tall lean muscular man, thus you could map Ganondorf to Captain Falcon's skeleton and have him do all of Captain Falcon's moves without any technical issues.

When it comes to Shadow, you can make him a 1:1 clone Sonic without any technical issues as they're built pretty much exactly the same, and thus it remains a real possibility. Now if Sega says no to it is an entirely different matter, but as long as it has Sega's approval, Sakurai can make Shadow as much of a clone as he wants.

Is there even footage of Daisy floating or pulling turnips in Ultimate? Because otherwise your argument that accuracy "just doesn't matter at all" is moot. If it doesn't matter, then Daisy, Dark Pit, and Dr. Mario would all be costumes.

 

[Cosmic77]

Is there even footage of Daisy floating or pulling turnips in Ultimate? Because otherwise your argument that accuracy "just doesn't matter at all" is moot. If it doesn't matter, then Daisy, Dark Pit, and Dr. Mario would all be costumes.

If accuracy mattered, Ridley would still be too big.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

I'm not quite sure why Dr. Mario got the Luigi treatment of Sm4sh's clones. Lucina by far has the most outspoken fanbase which I believe is solely becauae she's a girl, but yeah. Curious why she remained a glorified alt and Doc didn't.

Dark Pit is just a non-factor.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

If accuracy mattered, Ridley would still be too big.

This is what I was saying about being more accurate with comparisons. If you say Daisy uses Toads and Ridley is smaller, so it doesn't matter how characters are portrayed, then why were characters like Dark Pit seperated specifically because of minor differences that were deemed necessary.

If accuracy doesn't matter, Dark Pit would have just been given The Sacred Treasures.

 

[Murlough]

Your comparisons are awful, dude. They really are. I know on Smashboards it's really popular to counter arguments with bad analogies that rely on the bare minimum effort of contrasting two random characters that are nothing alike, and then acting like you're really clever, but yours are the cringiest. Like, "Let me drag my finger across the roster and find someone who has an even slightly similar trait to the subject of hand."

Nothing about that move is goofy. You just happened to freeze it on a particular face and frame. So once again you're being totally dishonest, especially when nobody even mentioned Shadow being a dark character, just like with your awful Wendy/Ms. Pac-Man comparison.

Frankly, I'm really tired of your responses. I can forgive a poor argument and I can forgive sarcasm, but don't be BOTH. That seems to be all I ever get from you is really pitiful analogies masked in sarcasm. And that's not something I wanna read anymore.

Nothing gets my goat more than really awful arguments that think they are clever. That's the one thing that triggers me.

Um, I mentioned him being a dark character. It was a few days ago but it was still with this same argument.

Also, he didn't have to pick a specific frame to make Ganondorf's uptilt look goofy. It's easily one of the goofiest moves in the game. He didn't have to pick a specific frame. Ganondorf looks like that for several frames of that move.

You didn't do a very good job of explaining why the comparison was bad. This just looks like you hating on the guy more than anything. I thought the comparison was fine.

 

[SonicMario]

Is there even footage of Daisy floating or pulling turnips in Ultimate? Because otherwise your argument that accuracy "just doesn't matter at all" is moot. If it doesn't matter, then Daisy, Dark Pit, and Dr. Mario would all be costumes.

No turnip pulling yet, but as for floating...

I think it's a safe bet Daisy will be pulling turnips anyway though. Or something very functionally similar anyway.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I'm not quite sure why Dr. Mario got the Luigi treatment of Sm4sh's clones. Lucina by far has the most outspoken fanbase which I believe is solely becauae she's a girl, but yeah. Curious why she remained a glorified alt and Doc didn't.

Dark Pit is just a non-factor.

Dr. Mario was already like that when he was in Melee. The only change he received in this game is his down air.

Contrary to what people think, Dr. Mario is more than just Mario in another costume. Lucina on the other hand, is ironically much more similar to Marth than Dr. Mario is to Mario, both in Smash and their origin games. This is funnily because of what Dr. Mario CAN'T do.

 

[CJ Falcon]

I'm not quite sure why Dr. Mario got the Luigi treatment of Sm4sh's clones. Lucina by far has the most outspoken fanbase which I believe is solely becauae she's a girl, but yeah. Curious why she remained a glorified alt and Doc didn't.

Dark Pit is just a non-factor.

Doc didn't get any special treatment. He kept all of his same moves from Melee which were all exact copies of Melee Mario's moves.

Edit: oh yeah, except for the new dair

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

No turnip pulling yet, but as for floating...

I think it's a safe bet Daisy will be pulling turnips anyway though. Or something very functionally similar anyway.

I can see this screenshot being very exploitable.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

I'm not quite sure why Dr. Mario got the Luigi treatment of Sm4sh's clones. Lucina by far has the most outspoken fanbase which I believe is solely becauae she's a girl, but yeah. Curious why she remained a glorified alt and Doc didn't.

Dark Pit is just a non-factor.

Probably helps that Mario had a few alterations post Melee that made Doc stand out more.

Which is probably why you see the changes you do to people like Pikachu now, so Pichu & Co stand out more themselves besides their unique properties they had to their moves originally.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Um, I mentioned him being a dark character. It was a few days ago but it was still with this same argument.

Also, he didn't have to pick a specific frame to make Ganondorf's uptilt look goofy. It's easily one of the goofiest moves in the game. He didn't have to pick a specific frame. Ganondorf looks like that for several frames of that move.

You didn't do a very good job of explaining why the comparison was bad. This just looks like you hating on the guy more than anything. I thought the comparison was fine.

It's really not goofy at all. That's my point. There's nothing goofy about being able spread your legs in a kicking animation. You just want it to be goofy.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Perhaps Daisy has a higher chance of pulling Bob-Ombs? It's a rather infinitesimal change, but a higher RNG in her favor could lead to her having better damage potential than Peach, which could fit her also rather minute damage modifier if she's slightly stronger than Peach.

 

[DJ3DS]

I avoided this thread after E3 because I just wanted to enjoy it myself and I didn't want to see chilldren flooding the forum to complain about clones and echo fighters,

but how do people feel about Young Link coming back. I was never expecting it, but it's pretty cool. Actually kind of makes Toon Link look more interesting by contrast.

To be completely honest I didn't even stop and think about there being more clones back - I was too excited to see Ice Climbers, Snake, and everyone from Smash 4 again!

However for Young Link specifically I'm actually quite interested in playing him. I used Link a bit in the past because I quite liked his tether so with the BOTW changes it's nice to have YL to go back to, and I've never really liked Toon Link.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Perhaps Daisy has a higher chance of pulling Bob-Ombs? It's a rather infinitesimal change, but a higher RNG in her favor could lead to her having better damage potential than Peach, which could fit her also rather minute damage modifier if she's slightly stronger than Peach.

Maybe Carrots. Carrots be in Super Mario Land 2, and Diasy from teh lands game.

 

[CJ Falcon]

It's really not goofy at all. That's my point. There's nothing goofy about being able spread your legs in a kicking animation. You just want it to be goofy.

I can just as easily say that you don't want it to be goofy. This is all a matter of different perspectives. It's not objectively goofy or not goofy.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

This is what I was saying about being more accurate with comparisons. If you say Daisy uses Toads and Ridley is smaller, so it doesn't matter how characters are portrayed, then why were characters like Dark Pit seperated specifically because of minor differences that were deemed necessary.

If accuracy doesn't matter, Dark Pit would have just been given The Sacred Treasures.

To be fair Dark Pit was included during a time in which Sakurai didn't want to include Ridley because he didn't think it'd be an accurate portrayal of the character. Might just be a case of Sakurai loosening up a bit, or maybe he was just trying to avoid admitting that they were padding the roster with clones as that wouldn't be met with a very positive response.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I can just as easily say that you don't want it to be goofy. This is all a matter of different perspectives. It's not objectively goofy or not goofy.

Exactly.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Maybe Carrots. Carrots be in Super Mario Land 2, and Diasy from teh lands game.

That could be a neat aesthetic change to the Turnips.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

Maybe Carrots. Carrots be in Super Mario Land 2, and Diasy from teh lands game.

That’d make a lot of sense actually, and be a nice nod.

 

[Zinith]

Oh boy, the "what is or isn't too goofy" conversation. Completely objective and set in stone...

 

[TheLastJinjo]

or maybe he was just trying to avoid admitting that they were padding the roster with clones as that wouldn't be met with a very positive response.

That's an insulting and unfounded accusation that's been proven wrong. So out of respect for the man, I just want to point out that that's not true.

 

[KMDP]

With regards to Daisy as an Echo, there is nothing concrete to pull from for Daisy for a moveset that Peach doesn't also do. Peach already uses sports equipment in Smash, and nothing in Mario's main series games say that Daisy can't do the things Peach can do.

Shadow has things they can pull from that would declone him. Dark Pit has a Kid Icarus canon reason for being 1:1 similar to Pit. Lucina playing like Marth is sort-of an in-joke, and a reference to her home game.

I will say these things as many times as I have to, as I am a very patient man.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Is there even footage of Daisy floating or pulling turnips in Ultimate? Because otherwise your argument that accuracy "just doesn't matter at all" is moot. If it doesn't matter, then Daisy, Dark Pit, and Dr. Mario would all be costumes.

They're not costumes because Sakurai gave them gameplay differences, whether it be just a few minor differences like Dark Pit, or even some entirely different moves like Dr. Mario, thus they're not functionally the exact same character. As said, what makes a clone or not matters most on what works best mechanically ingame without any technical issues occurring, a character looking "silly" doing a move (as entirely subjective as that is) isn't going to matter a damn to Sakurai, unless it really bothers him about how out of character he thinks it is (as is in the case of Dark Pit using the Three Sacred Treasures, though there's no consistency to it as he has the Koopalings having Shadow Mario as their final smash and Alph using the Hectotate ship in his, so we can't say exactly what would be too OoC for him). Maybe Sega might not like it and would veto a request to use Shadow as a clone, but neither you or any of us are involved in Sega and thus can't say whether or not they would approve of it.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

They're not costumes because Sakurai gave them gameplay differences, whether it be just a few minor differences like Dark Pit, or even some entirely different moves like Dr. Mario, thus they're not functionally the exact same character. As said, what makes a clone or not matters most on what works best mechanically ingame without any technical issues occurring, a character looking "silly" doing a move (as entirely subjective as that is) isn't going to matter a damn to Sakurai, unless it really bothers him about how out of character he thinks it is (as is in the case of Dark Pit using the Three Sacred Treasures, though there's no consistency to it as he has the Koopalings having Shadow Mario as their final smash and Alph using the Hectotate ship in his, so we can't say exactly what would be too OoC for him). Maybe Sega might not like it and would veto a request to use Shadow as a clone, but neither you or any of us are involved in Sega and thus can't say whether or not they would approve of it.

I could see Sega & Sakurai making Shadow a special case Semi Clone, if they really wanted to push the envelope, not thinking it'll get to that point but it'd be cool for people like me who'd like to see him.

 

[Will]

Kind of weird that Toon Link still has Triforce Slash.

Probably because it kinda did kinda not happened before.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

They're not costumes because Sakurai gave them gameplay differences, whether it be just a few minor differences like Dark Pit, or even some entirely different moves like Dr. Mario, thus they're not functionally the exact same character. As said, what makes a clone or not matters most on what works best mechanically ingame without any technical issues occurring, a character looking "silly" doing a move (as entirely subjective as that is) isn't going to matter a damn to Sakurai, unless it really bothers him about how out of character he thinks it is (as is in the case of Dark Pit using the Three Sacred Treasures, though there's no consistency to it as he has the Koopalings having Shadow Mario as their final smash and Alph using the Hectotate ship in his, so we can't say exactly what would be too OoC for him). Maybe Sega might not like it and would veto a request to use Shadow as a clone, but neither you or any of us are involved in Sega and thus can't say whether or not they would approve of it.

But, you're sitting here saying they WOULD approve of it.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

With regards to Daisy as an Echo, there is nothing concrete to pull from for Daisy for a moveset that Peach doesn't also do. Peach already uses sports equipment in Smash, and nothing in Mario's main series games say that Daisy can't do the things Peach can do.

Shadow has things they can pull from that would declone him. Dark Pit has a Kid Icarus canon reason for being 1:1 similar to Pit. Lucina playing like Marth is sort-of an in-joke, and a reference to her home game.

I will say these things as many times as I have to, as I am a very patient man.

Clones aren't chosen because of a "lack of distinct moveset potential", they're leftover characters who Sakurai passed over for a full-fledged roster spot that he then noticed can be cloned off of a preexisting playable character without any mechanical issues and thus thrown in as one for little developmental effort. How unique a character a clone can be made doesn't matter.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

How likely is it that K. Rool ends up being a DLC character?

 

[MainJPW]

Not only that game, but Sonic Heroes, Sonic 06 has them share a very similar movepool too, Forces, and even Rivals, I believe.

Besides Signature moves everyone in the Rivals games are straight clones. All the speed characters in Heroes are clones save for their solo attacks and Espio's invisibility. Sonic and Shadow in 06 aren't that similar due to those Chaos abilities he can use with his Chaos Boost gauge and the lack of Spin Dash (what a stupid game).

It's the fatal flaw of canonically being very similar to Sonic. Fast-paced gameplay with punches, kicks, and a Spin Dash + Homing Attack combo nearly everyone in the verse can do, but with an added flair to them through Chaos Powers that merely add projectiles, an AoE attack, and an increase in stats with a teleport (albeit Sonic can also teleport and Hyper mode in Fighters essentially increases stats too, with the tornado and wind attacks he's had before also covering the divide in their movesets).

Sonic only ever teleported in SA2 with a fake Chaos Emerald, didn't he? Shadow teleports in every game he's appeared in and can teleport during gameplay in Battle and 06.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

But, you're sitting here saying they WOULD approve of it.

Where did I say it would happen? I'm just saying it's fully possible it could, none of us can know for certain what Sega and Sakurai would truly think of it.

 

[Zinith]

*Clears throat*

I think Daisy will pull turnips just like Peach.

The End!!!

*leaves conversation*