Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Shyy_Guy595]

Daisy has the ability to control crystals and make a gauntlet out of it to deck a soccer ball straight into a goal in Strikers. She can either have it all the time to make her a more H2H combatant, or simply summon it for a few moves.

Canonically, Daisy is also a tomboy as opposed to Peach's more regal, elegant nature. She could use a baseball like Ness, her Down-B could be her doing a split that sends out a magic field of flowers at each of her feet, and her Up-B could like a MegaStrike where she flies up and then kicks downwards diagonally.

Nothing in canon also doesn't say Shadow can't be a carbon copy of Sonic, because canon actually dictates that they're VERY similar and it's sort of a joke.

Can play this game all day

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Besides Signature moves everyone in the Rivals games are straight clones. All the speed characters in Heroes are clones save for their solo attacks and Espio's invisibility. Sonic and Shadow in 06 aren't that similar due to those Chaos abilities he can use with his Chaos Boost gauge and the lack of Spin Dash (what a stupid game).


Sonic only ever teleported in SA2 with a fake Chaos Emerald, didn't he? Shadow teleports in every game he's appeared in and can teleport during gameplay in Battle and 06.

Sonic actually used Chaos Control in 06 as well in all the time hopping that went on.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Where did I say it would happen? I'm just saying it's fully possible it could, none of us can know for certain what Sega and Sakurai would truly think of it.

a character looking "silly" doing a move (as entirely subjective as that is) isn't going to matter a damn to Sakurai

It's not just a matter of a character looking "silly" and it's not a matter of whether or not a character can or can't do that or did or didn't do that.

It's about personality. If you're not going to reflect a character's personality properly, there's no point in having them. That's why Dark Pit has his own clapping animation. That stuff IS important.

 

[N3ON]

Clones are clones because they could be clones, not because they couldn't be unique. Clones are added at the point where the unique additions are finished. And for many of them, getting in as a clone is the only way they'd actually get in.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Besides Signature moves everyone in the Rivals games are straight clones. All the speed characters in Heroes are clones save for their solo attacks and Espio's invisibility. Sonic and Shadow in 06 aren't that similar due to those Chaos abilities he can use with his Chaos Boost gauge and the lack of Spin Dash (what a stupid game).


Sonic only ever teleported in SA2 with a fake Chaos Emerald, didn't he? Shadow teleports in every game he's appeared in and can teleport during gameplay in Battle and 06.

I'm talking in general. Everything either of them can do can logically be explained with things they can pull from other games. Shadow's Boost is effectively a hyped up stat enhancer/rage mechanic, and I already noted the outlier projectiles with the Chaos Powers that are mostly optional and have to be bought. They're half-and-half, I'd say.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Probably because it kinda did kinda not happened before.

So glad you used that gif because it brings me to a point we were kinda at already when talking about young links.

How would people feel about another WW rep? Tetra has been in my top 10 forever and I've wanted them to replace Ganondorf with my favorite version since Brawl, but we could have two Ganondorf's

The WW timeline technically has three games to it's name, and the toon Link style is super popular so it would he cool to better rep that side of the series than with just another link. One can dream.

 

[MainJPW]

Sonic actually used Chaos Control in 06 as well in all the time hopping that went on.

Yeah, but with an emerald and I don't think he ever used it during gameplay. Shadow can use Chaos Control during gameplay in quite a few entries and doesn't need an Emerald.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Yeah, but with an emerald and I don't think he ever used it during gameplay. Shadow can use Chaos Control during gameplay in quite a few entries and doesn't need an Emerald.

Oops I misread yeah Shadow can, which is why I think him having a Mewtwo teleporting effect would be rad.

 

[Freduardo]

On trying to figure out the echo fighters, let’s examine some close to echoes, some echoes, and some alts.

Alts: Koopalings and Alph.

These are costumes. They have different audio. And a different skins. But their animations are 1:1 the same aside from the skin. (The frame still does the same thing)

Clones that aren’t echo fighters but don’t blur the line: Luigi, Lucas, Roy, Ganondorf, Falco, Wolf, Toon Link

These have different B moves, different A Moves. Oh sure they’re variations on the same theme, but they’ve varied the variation more. Some have different frames. They pretty much always have different physical properties (weight, speed and stats)

Clones that blur the line: Doctor Mario, Young Link, Pichu

They have different weight speed and stats and a different B move.

Echo fighters we know: Dark Pit and Lucina:

They have the same speed, power and weight as their source characters. Lucina has a slightly smaller frame and a different sweet spot, Dark Pit has a different final smash and two of his b moves are different.

But we know Daisy will have slightly different moves and animations from Peach.

She’ll probably share her weight, strength, and speed.

And maybe two of her B moves will be slightly different (looks like a slightly different angle in her parasol, she seems to have a different stance when using Toad. Maybe a different butt slam?

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

It's really not goofy at all. That's my point. There's nothing goofy about being able spread your legs in a kicking animation. You just want it to be goofy.

If having Ganondorf be flexible enough to hold his leg up to his head like a cheerleader isn't goofy then how the **** is Shadow doing a wind up punch goofy?

This again comes down to subjectivity, you just want the wind up punch to be goofy. This argument is so ****ing stupid and the fact that you can't read this is making me more upset than it should lol.

 

[Zinith]

So glad you used that gif because it brings me to a point we were kinda at already when talking about young links.

How would people feel about another WW rep? Tetra has been in my top 10 forever and I've wanted them to replace Ganondorf with my favorite version since Brawl, but we could have two Ganondorf's

The WW timeline technically has three games to it's name, and the toon Link style is super popular so it would he cool to better rep that side of the series than with just another link. One can dream.

My gut tells me Linebeck...

Spoiler

And that's some gut, considering

 

[Freduardo]

So glad you used that gif because it brings me to a point we were kinda at already when talking about young links.

How would people feel about another WW rep? Tetra has been in my top 10 forever and I've wanted them to replace Ganondorf with my favorite version since Brawl, but we could have two Ganondorf's

The WW timeline technically has three games to it's name, and the toon Link style is super popular so it would he cool to better rep that side of the series than with just another link. One can dream.

The wind waker timeline may only have those three games, but that’s not the limit on Toon Link.

He’s also the art style in Minish Cap and Four Swords Adventures...

And I think triforce Heroes too.

Anyway the point is Vaati.

 

[CatTastic]

Can anyone tell me how the taunts and crowd chants are in Smash Switch?

In the Wii U version they felt pretty weak if you ask me

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Besides Signature moves everyone in the Rivals games are straight clones. All the speed characters in Heroes are clones save for their solo attacks and Espio's invisibility.

In Heroes, Amy and Espio's tornado attacks had unique properties with the former sending them forward and being able to spin mid-air with her hammer and the latter's tornado being more stationary (in addition to the invisibility you mentioned). Sonic and Shadow's tornado attacks share the exact same properties with both of them being able to home in on opponents using them.

 

[SlickWylde]

Clones are clones because they could be clones, not because they couldn't be unique. Clones are added at the point where the unique additions are finished. And for many of them, getting in as a clone is the only way they'd actually get in.

Yes, agreed. I don't tend to like clones, and during Melee and Brawl I thought that they were taking up slots, but it's been "proven" (As much as it can be, at least) that these are really just bonuses for characters that Sakurai thought were really cool but didn't have time to fully implement.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

It's not just a matter of a character looking "silly" and it's not a matter of whether or not a character can or can't do that or did or didn't do that.

It's about personality. If you're not going to reflect a character's personality properly, there's no point in having them. That's why Dark Pit has his own clapping animation. That stuff IS important.

About every character has some sort of representation inconsistency, whether it be personality things like eternally pissed off Mario and cocky Marth, or characters using moves they canonically can't like the aforementioned Koopalings having Shadow Mario and Alph riding the Hectotate Ship. As constantly reiterated, the #1 thing by far whether a character can be cloned or not is if it works mechanically, because you think something would "look goofy" doesn't matter, and general animations like clapping or dashing can be easily altered for flavor anyway, as is always done with clones.

 

[Hinata]

Can anyone tell me how the taunts and crowd chants are in Smash Switch?

In the Wii U version they felt pretty weak if you ask me

All I know as far as taunt changes go is that they changed Charizard's taunts so it's not just him roaring three different ways.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

About every character has some sort of representation inconsistency, whether it be personality things like eternally pissed off Mario and cocky Marth, or characters using moves they can't like the aforementioned Koopalings having Shadow Mario and Alph riding the Hectotate Ship. As constantly reiterated, the #1 thing by far whether a character ca be cloned or not is if it works mechanically, because you think something would "look goofy" doesn't matter, and minor animations like clapping or dashing can be easily altered for flavor anyway, as is always done with clones.

Cocky Marth is gonna be hilarious to contrast with him finally getting Yuri Lowenthal proper in Smash.

 

[Will]

cocky Marth

Where is this from?
I mean if I were playing 5-Star Shadow Dragon I'd be cocky too

 

[Zinith]

Cocky Marth is gonna be hilarious to contrast with him finally getting Yuri Lowenthal proper in Smash.

"KEEP YOUR EYES OPEN!!!" *Gets KOed by Dragoon...*

Yes, that actually happened in one of those Treehouse videos

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Where is this from?
I mean if I were playing 5-Star Shadow Dragon I'd be cocky too

He should be cocky from how busted he was in FE1 & FE3 too

 

[Dracyoshi]

I'm really disappointed that Mario's Super Mushroom taunt is gone. The comedic timing on Mario standing perfectly still while oversized never got old! It was my favorite taunt in the series, sorry Shulk.

 

[Will]

He should be cocky from how busted he was in FE1 & FE3 too

Marth was a decent unit, Caeda is his wrecking ball .

I'm really disappointed that Mario's Super Mushroom taunt is gone. The comedic timing on Mario standing perfectly still while oversized never got old! It was my favorite taunt in the series, sorry Shulk.

I still have no idea why they won't let you have 4 taunts when you have 4 usable buttons.

 

[Murlough]

It's really not goofy at all. That's my point. There's nothing goofy about being able spread your legs in a kicking animation. You just want it to be goofy.

Yes, please do tell me more about what I want.

The move is basically a meme because its such a funny looking move coming from such a menacing looking character.

EDIT: Young Link is really the only vet I didn't want back but I'm happy for the people who wanted him.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

What's the matter, scared?

 

[SmashChu]

Shadow is too goofy reminds me of one guy saying Megaman couldn't be in because he uses the robot master weapons and not his own. Shadow and Sonic are the same in the games they are in. I see no issue with Shadow using Sonic's moves since they do that already.

Shadow's problem may be the same as they rest of the guest in that they may not have gotten their rights. In a recent interview (up on Nintendo Everything and probably Source Gaming), he mentioned they almost didn't get everyone back and spoke about the issue with contracting with other publishers. I've theorized that we may not get any more as they had to get the old characters and his interview supports that.

But we'll see. Could be wrong. Nevertheless, I don't think Shadow's moves will hurt him.

 

[Will]

Maybe Shadow looks goofy because he fails at being edgy.

 

[CatTastic]

I really just meant the voices. They weren't as charismatic as Brawl, that was a major turn off

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Marth was a decent unit, Caeda is his wrecking ball .

What I find funny in FE1 is that the AI is programed to target Marth if they can and this is where he's like a super strong fighter so he can likely handle them all.

Yes Caeda is amazing haha, both in FE3 & 11 in particular (more so Book 1 of FE3). She can use Silver Lances at base there! (no Wing Spear though since that wasn't until 11)

 

[CJ Falcon]

I'm really disappointed that Mario's Super Mushroom taunt is gone. The comedic timing on Mario standing perfectly still while oversized never got old! It was my favorite taunt in the series, sorry Shulk.

On the bright side, they gave him a taunt were he actually smiles for once.

Spoiler

 

[Dracyoshi]

I really just meant the voices. They weren't as charismatic as Brawl, that was a major turn off

I could hardly even understand half of the crowd chants in Smash 4. Really ruins the excitement when they just sound like white noise.

 

[KMDP]

Maybe Shadow looks goofy because he fails at being edgy.

Shadow: Ahyuk!

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Still think there should be an Ash palette swap for Pokemon Trainer. But, I'm glad there's a Kalos one.

 

[Jexulus]

Given that my original post about this topic is 20 pages old and buried in a literal wall of text, I'm going to point out once again that 4 of the Legend of Zelda characters in the game have received massive visual and mechanical changes unmatched by any other franchise present so far. The other two are fulfilling the green quota.

This is doubtless because of the fact that Breath of the Wild has seen massive mainstream success. It stands to reason that to further promote the franchise as a whole, they're the most likely existing franchise to receive a new character. It also stands to reason, to tie into the current discussion, that it won't be a clone or echo since half of their number are clones already.

As someone who has very little experience with the series, I'm curious to see who you guys think will make an appearance, but this time, based on their chances of being a unique fighter.

 

[Enchess]

This whole Shadow thing has been happening with every echo suggestion. Shadow can be unique so his fans want to believe he can't be a copy, but that's completely ignoring that Sega introduced him to be Sonic but dark. Sure, he has gotten some new moves over the years, but there's nothing inherently wrong with him being an echo since he is one in many of his non-Smash appearances.

I think Shadow fans are also forgetting/ignoring something crucial we know from Daisy. Echoes can have differences in animations. The (very few) offending moves can be really easily given slightly tweaked animations to make them less "goofy" without changing hitboxes or timing.

 

[CatTastic]

I could hardly even understand half of the crowd chants in Smash 4. Really ruins the excitement when they just sound like white noise.

Exactly dude! The voices were prolly rushed or they just didn't feel like it

 

[Will]

What I find funny in FE1 is that the AI is programed to target Marth if they can and this is where he's like a super strong fighter so he can likely handle them all.

They all want a piece of that androgynous action.

Exactly dude! The voices were prolly rushed or they just didn't feel like it

I want Xander Mobus to not only be an announcer, but to be the person who chants for fighters.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Given that my original post about this topic is 20 pages old and buried in a literal wall of text, I'm going to point out once again that 4 of the Legend of Zelda characters in the game have received massive visual and mechanical changes unmatched by any other franchise present so far. The other two are fulfilling the green quota.

This is doubtless because of the fact that Breath of the Wild has seen massive mainstream success. It stands to reason that to further promote the franchise as a whole, they're the most likely existing franchise to receive a new character. It also stands to reason, to tie into the current discussion, that it won't be a clone or echo since half of their number are clones already.

As someone who has very little experience with the series, I'm curious to see who you guys think will make an appearance, but this time, based on their chances of being a unique fighter.

BotW wasn't a surefire success during development, however.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

This whole Shadow thing has been happening with every echo suggestion. Shadow can be unique so his fans want to believe he can't be a copy, but that's completely ignoring that Sega introduced him to be Sonic but dark. Sure, he has gotten some new moves over the years, but there's nothing inherently wrong with him being an echo since he is one in many of his non-Smash appearances.

I think Shadow fans are also forgetting/ignoring something crucial we know from Daisy. Echoes can have differences in animations. The (very few) offending moves can be really easily given slightly tweaked animations to make them less "goofy" without changing hitboxes or timing.

I'm all for Shadow getting in even as an Echo and I agree with your points. I'm more saying if they wanted to they could give him more touches.

Still gonna gun for him having Mewtwo like dodge animations at the very least though haha.

 

[SonicMario]

To be honest, I wouldn't mind Shadow being at least a little goofy. I mean the original incarnation of Shadow that most people have fond memories of had lines like "I'm the coolest!" or in Heroes like "A date to DIE for!" during and/or just before fights with Sonic heh. The Sonic series is a cartoon, even if Shadow has absolutely the most serious backstory out of nearly all the Sonic characters. He's still as much a cartoon character as the rest of the cast. Let Shadow be a little cocky rather then dark and brooding the whole time.

So if Shadow had a wind-up punch like Sonic does, I wouldn't really bat an eye that much. Leave Shadow's personality to show up in the taunts, victory screen, and probably idle and running animations. That's plenty enough.