Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Deleted member]

Sceptile had its merits other than being a Grass starter to match Greninja and Charizard.

Your case for Blaziken vs Sceptile feels subjective. They were both prominent in the Anime, both received Mega Evolutions, both were featured in Pokken, and both have nearly the same amount of TCG cards. Only thing going for Blaziken there is that it got its Mega Evolution first.

In terms of popularity, Blaziken placed a bit higher than Sceptile in the Japanese Pokemon poll, but that's about it.

Far from accurate.
Blaziken has always been given special treatment among the set.
And for as many "merits" you claim Sceptile to add, were literally ANY of them relevant as to why it was even supported for Smash to begin with?

The answer is no. Literally the ONLY reason Sceptile got support was because:
-Hoenn remakes were on the way
-Grass type Starter

Any claim otherwise is factually false.

 

[Deathcarter]

What are you guys thoughts on Elma's chances?

Imo, it depends on how many unique newcomers you're expecting. If you're like me and expect something small like 8 total, then there are too many popular choices from more well known series to give Elma good odds. If you're extremely optimistic and are expecting 11+ unique newcomers, then I'd say she'd be likely due to the simple lack of alternative 1st party options left.

 

[MBRedboy31]

shoot, Daisy uses Blue Toad... but did they even coexist in a game???

The only Toads Daisy should know are the normal Toad, Toadette, and Toadsworth

I’m fairly sure they’ve appeared in things like arena crowds and stuff along with Daisy (also, don’t the baseball spinoffs have a playable Blue Toad that you could put on Daisy’s team if you wanted to?) Most recent one I can think of is that one of the commentator Toads in Tennis Aces is a Blue Toad, actually.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

shoot, Daisy uses Blue Toad... but did they even coexist in a game???

The only Toads Daisy should know are the normal Toad, Toadette, and Toadsworth

Mario Superstar Baseball
Mario Super Sluggers
Mario Super Strikers
Mario Sports Mix
Mario Kart 8 (and Deluxe)
Mario Sports Superstars

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

A moveset made for one character will never fit another perfectly. But Falcon's moveset fits Blaziken pretty darn well imo outside of a few quirks here and there; just like Peach's moveset fitting Daisy.

The problem is, Blaziken and Captain Falcon are NOT from the same franchise. Also, Echo Fighters do have to share the same attributes as the fighter they're mimicking.

And before anyone brings up Ganondorf being Captain Falcon's Echo Fighter, he's far from it, due to his attributes being completely different.

 

[Arcadenik]

shoot, Daisy uses Blue Toad... but did they even coexist in a game???

The only Toads Daisy should know are the normal Toad, Toadette, and Toadsworth

I am actually bummed that Daisy uses Blue Toad. Not only is The Toad disconfirmed, so is Blue Toad.

But other Toad supporters said it's interesting that they went with Blue Toad instead of Toadette. I mean, Toadette and Daisy has always showed up in sports and party games together... yet Daisy is using Blue Toad? And they speculated that maybe Captain Toad could be playable and that Toadette could be Captain Toad's alt.

 

[Pokechu]

The problem is, Blaziken and Captain Falcon are NOT from the same franchise. Also, Echo Fighters do have to share the same attributes as the fighter they're mimicking.

And before anyone brings up Ganondorf being Captain Falcon's Echo Fighter, he's far from it, due to his attributes being completely different.

There's no rule saying that an Echo fighter has to be from the same franchise. Nothing's confirmed that.

If Blaziken has a rather poor jump because he's an Echo of Falcon, he'll just have a rather poor jump. Just like how Daisy has a rather poor representation of her character in a few of Peach's moves.

And if Blaziken isn't/can't be an Echo of Falcon, he could still be some other type of clone; it'd still be way less work than creating an original moveset for him from scratch.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

I feel meta crystal (metal Mario stage) might be done in smash ultimate

 

[MBRedboy31]

The problem is, Blaziken and Captain Falcon are NOT from the same franchise. Also, Echo Fighters do have to share the same attributes as the fighter they're mimicking.

And before anyone brings up Ganondorf being Captain Falcon's Echo Fighter, he's far from it, due to his attributes being completely different.

As a general thing, the whole “a character must have the same attributes” thing is kinda pointless for speculation since “regular” clones and semi-clones exist.
I feel like everyone's forgotten that Echoes aren’t the only type of clone.

I kinda doubt The Pokemon Company would want one of their characters to be a clone of a character from a different franchise, though, anyway. I don’t know that for sure, but yeah.

 

[Pokechu]

Mario Superstar Baseball
Mario Super Sluggers
Mario Super Strikers
Mario Sports Mix
Mario Kart 8 (and Deluxe)
Mario Sports Superstars

compare it to Toadette though

where almost EVERY time Daisy is in a game, Toadette is in too.

So why not go with the Toad Daisy is obviously more familiar with/seen with? Not to mention how Toadette is WAY more popular. But I digress.

also does Mario Kart 8/8D even count?? didn't Blue Toad only have like a cameo? He definitely wasn't playable lol

 

[Arcadenik]

I feel meta crystal (metal Mario stage) might be done in smash ultimate

I actually would like that. I always wanted to play on that stage outside of Classic Mode in Smash 64.

 

[GIBBERT64]

Not sure if I'd consider those the best examples. Bowser was changed because they seemed to be moving away from the 'transform and control character' kind of final smashes, so they turned Giga Bowser into a targetting Final Smash instead. Ganondorf is mostly an aesthetic difference as he is being based on Ocarina of Time rather then Twilight Princess, otherwise his final smash is basically the same concept as before.

I was using the new examples like bowser's new final smash

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

There's no rule saying that an Echo fighter has to be from the same franchise. Nothing's confirmed that.

Even if that's true, Echo Fighters are placed right next to the fighter whom they're mimicking. If the roster is sorted by series, then you'd have one heck of a problem on your hands if the Echo Fighter mimics someone from a completely different series.

Dry Bowser being Bowser's Echo Fighter would work, since they're both from the Super Mario Bros. series. As for Captain Falcon and Blaziken, with Blaziken being from the Pokemon series, it would make more sense for it to be paired alongside the other Pokemon series fighters. Therefore, if it wants to be a Captain Falcon copycat, the semi-clone position would be the better option, especially once attributes come into play.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I am actually bummed that Daisy uses Blue Toad. Not only is The Toad disconfirmed, so is Blue Toad.

But other Toad supporters said it's interesting that they went with Blue Toad instead of Toadette. I mean, Toadette and Daisy has always showed up in sports and party games together... yet Daisy is using Blue Toad? And they speculated that maybe Captain Toad could be playable and that Toadette could be Captain Toad's alt.

Sounds a bit of a stretch but they were willing to give Daisy more unique animations than Lucina and DP got so simply using Blue Toad does seem a little off.

 

[MBRedboy31]

compare it to Toadette though

where almost EVERY time Daisy is in a game, Toadette is in too.

So why not go with the Toad Daisy is obviously more familiar with/seen with? Not to mention how Toadette is WAY more popular. But I digress.

also does Mario Kart 8/8D even count?? didn't Blue Toad only have like a cameo? He definitely wasn't playable lol

I think, for canonical reasons, it’s a bit easier to say some generic Toads live in Sarasaland (perhaps they weren’t there back when Super Mario Land happened, but they’ve since moved there) and so she hired some of them to be her servants, than it is to say that she hired the one, single, only Toadette in all of existence despite Toadette being shown to currently have an archivist job in the Mushroom Kingdom in Odyssey.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

compare it to Toadette though

where almost EVERY time Daisy is in a game, Toadette is in too.

So why not go with the Toad Daisy is obviously more familiar with/seen with? Not to mention how Toadette is WAY more popular. But I digress.

also does Mario Kart 8/8D even count?? didn't Blue Toad only have like a cameo? He definitely wasn't playable lol

But Toadette is canon now :^)

Palette swap if you buy both DLCs in 8, free palette in Deluxe

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Even if that's true, Echo Fighters are placed right next to the fighter whom they're mimicking. If the roster is sorted by series, then you'd have one heck of a problem on your hands if the Echo Fighter mimics someone from a completely different series.

Dry Bowser being Bowser's Echo Fighter would work, since they're both from the Super Mario Bros. series. As for Captain Falcon and Blaziken, with Blaziken being from the Pokemon series, it would make more sense for it to be paired alongside the other Pokemon series fighters. Therefore, if it wants to be a Captain Falcon copycat, the semi-clone position would be the better option, especially once attributes come into play.

From what we've seen so far in the demos, characters are arranged by release order so maybe they're doing that as a "we can't get anything neat out of series order so nuts to that".

Bowser does a have a white alt but the wiki claims it's based off SMB3 Morton rather than being a DB homage so it could happen.

 

[Pokechu]

I think, for canonical reasons, it’s a bit easier to say some generic Toads live in Sarasaland (perhaps they weren’t there back when Super Mario Land happened, but they’ve since moved there) and so she hired some of them to be her servants, than it is to say that she hired the one, single, only Toadette in all of existence despite Toadette being shown to currently have an archivist job in the Mushroom Kingdom in Odyssey.

good point lol

but ay, to be fair, if characters can't be in when they currently have jobs

what's happening to the Villager's town? He's the mayor and he just walked up out the Town? And took Isabelle with him as an assist trophy?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

If K. Rool isn't in I will eat my hat.

that's all

If Etika hasn’t eaten a certain sandwich he promised to eat during the Smash 4 hype, not sure if I can believe what you promis either

 

[Murlough]

If you ask me, I'd rather take 10 newcomers than get 100 echos. I simply can't understand people who want characters in just because they COULD be an Echo.

If you like the character why settle for a copy of something else using your characters skin?

I'm in the Sceptile or Swampert camp more than Blaziken but even he wouldn't deserve being made an Echo of. Thinking about Blakizen using the Knee of Justice makes me cringe.

 

[Pokechu]

But Toadette is canon now :^)

Palette swap if you buy both DLCs in 8, free palette in Deluxe

Good point. But still. If Villager and Isabelle can ditch the town they run, Toadette can ditch her Archivist status and hang out with Daisy in Smash lol

toad has no palette swaps in mario kart 8/8 deluxe, that's only for yoshi and shy guy :^(

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Good point. But still. If Villager and Isabelle can ditch the town they run, Toadette can ditch her Archivist status and hang out with Daisy in Smash lol

toad has no palette swaps in mario kart 8/8 deluxe, that's only for yoshi and shy guy :^(

In all fairness, Isabelle shows up for only a few seconds. She works hard and deserves the short break

Then again, this Villager isn't New Leaf's because of his proportions, so he was never a mayor to begin with. :V

OH **** YOU'RE RIGHT! HOW DID I GOOF SO BAD LOL

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Blaziken is much more kick-based in it's fighting style than Falcon.
That's not to say Falcon doesn't use kicks, just that he doesn't use enough for Blaziken to make sense as an Echo/clone.

There's a reason it's the "Kickin' Chicken".

Guybrush20X6 is struck by an insane idea

Blaziken as Chun-li Echo!

 

[SmashingXan2]

If King K Rool is in SmashU, this is what I think his moveset will be like
Jab- the one two punch he does in DK64. Actually most normals will focus on his fists, tail, and jaws, but the man will have boxing gloves.
FSmash- Possibly a small ranged one where he throws the boxing glove during the 64 boss
Nair- Roll like in DK Jungle Climber
Pummel- Bite
Neutral Special- Throws Crown
Side B- Cannonball from Blunderbuss
Recovery- Helicopter Backpack thing from DKC3
Down B- Ground pound like Bowser's where it won't help in recovery
Grab animation could be him sucking you to him with Blunderbuss like he does in DKC2
Dash attack or Run anaimation- Charge attack from DKC
Final Smash- Calls in Pirate Ship to laugh a barrage of cannon fire
One taunt has to be iconic laugh
Entrance animation and taunt referencing his ability to go invisible
That my prediction

 

[Ze Diglett]

If Etika hasn’t eaten a certain sandwich he promised to eat during the Smash 4 hype, not sure if I can believe what you promis either

Technically, he doesn't have to anymore now that Wolf is back. Disappointing, I know - hopefully, he'll find another reason to eat that sandwich in the future.

 

[AlphaSSB]

Far from accurate.
Blaziken has always been given special treatment among the set.
And for as many "merits" you claim Sceptile to add, were literally ANY of them relevant as to why it was even supported for Smash to begin with?

The answer is no. Literally the ONLY reason Sceptile got support was because:
-Hoenn remakes were on the way
-Grass type Starter

Any claim otherwise is factually false.

Well, that was a condescending response.

There was a bit of a bandwagon effect due to Sceptile being a starter, sure, and the Hoenn games having remakes created opportunity. But to say that's all Sceptile had isn't "factual".

Outside of that, Sceptile and Blaziken both had merits. Both Pokemon were popular starters that were prominent in the show. Both Pokemon had plenty of potential to be unique additions. Both could've filled an interesting niche. Sceptile's potential is what made people like the idea of his inclusion, not just due to him being a "Grass starter." His moveset in Pokken provided a good idea for what he could do in Smash, and I still think he'd be a great addition.

I've no interest in carrying this conversation further.

 

[MBRedboy31]

In all fairness, Isabelle shows up for only a few seconds. She works hard and deserves the short break

Then again, this Villager isn't New Leaf's because of his proportions, so he was never a mayor to begin with. :V

OH **** YOU'RE RIGHT! HOW DID I GOOF SO BAD LOL

Boxing Ring’s titles for the characters claims that the Villager in Smash is the mayor of Smashville (which is a Wild World town,) though, he must’ve gotten elected mayor sometime after the release of Wild World but before the release of Smash 4.

 

[Pokechu]

In all fairness, Isabelle shows up for only a few seconds. She works hard and deserves the short break

Then again, this Villager isn't New Leaf's because of his proportions, so he was never a mayor to begin with. :V

OH **** YOU'RE RIGHT! HOW DID I GOOF SO BAD LOL

Good point But what about Corrin though? He left without making the canonical choice to side with a Kingdom, as in the trailer, a new option popped up allowing him to join Smash. So what happened to Hoshido and Nohr?

Spoiler: Fates Spoilers

i haven't played fates in a while but wasn't it all because of him and azura that anankos didn't destroy hoshido and nohr? because they found out the invisible kingdom or w/e and convinced the siblings from each side to join them? Azura def. couldn't have done that alone lol

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Guybrush20X6 is struck by an insane idea

Blaziken as Chun-li Echo!

Blaziken doing the Spinning Bird Kick?

That's perfect

Boxing Ring’s titles for the characters claims that the Villager in Smash is the mayor of Smashville (which is a Wild World town,) though, he must’ve gotten elected mayor sometime after the release of Wild World but before the release of Smash 4.

Or it's just a reference to the newly released game of the time?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

From what we've seen so far in the demos, characters are arranged by release order so maybe they're doing that as a "we can't get anything neat out of series order so nuts to that".

It's always possible that as the roster grows, you'll eventually get the option to sort fighters by series.

 

[Pokechu]

Or it's just a reference to the newly released game of the time?

IDK. He's the mayor in New Leaf, why can't he be the mayor in Smash? I can see them sticking with the short Villager design and not the tall one (even if they wanted to draw from New Leaf) because the short Villager design is more iconic.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Good point But what about Corrin though? He left without making the canonical choice to side with a Kingdom, as in the trailer, a new option popped up allowing him to join Smash. So what happened to Hoshido and Nohr?

Spoiler: Fates Spoilers

i haven't played fates in a while but wasn't it all because of him and azura that anankos didn't destroy hoshido and nohr? because they found out the invisible kingdom or w/e and convinced the siblings from each side to join them? Azura def. couldn't have done that alone lol

Corrin has the Omega Yato. There's only one path where they can get that sword; Revelation, and only near the end of the game. iirc.

So while the trailer had some fun with the Branch of Fate thing (which is honestly the best way a Corrin trailer could've been done), Smash's Corrin is likely from after Revelation's endgame.

 

[Luminario]

honestly delphox has to be my favorite fire starter

like i dont think her design is anywhere near as bad as people made it out to be, it's one of the better starter designs in general

if it was just me i would have just made her robe shorter, because as it is Braixen grew legs that we can't even see in Delphox.

But even with that flaw she's still MILES ahead of any other Fire starter.

Delphox's design isn't that bad, it's just a let down to how feminine Braixen is.
If I were to re-design it slightly, I'd make it's form a little more elegant, give it a long mohawk and horizontal ears to make it's silhouette appear like a witch's hat from the front, and change the stick to a staff. Such small changes might have made it better received.

I hope they stick with the basic concept in Gen 7 for the Gen 8 starters too, where one is feminine, one masculine, and one's in between.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I hope they stick with the basic concept in Gen 7 for the Gen 8 starters too, where one is feminine, one masculine, and one's in between.

I don't know. Not every generation had starters who looked feminine in any way. Generations 1, 3, and 4 are probably the most notable. One could argue that the 5th generation also lacked any feminine-looking starters, but the Snivy family could potentially go either way.

 

[Pokechu]

Corrin has the Omega Yato. There's only one path where they can get that sword; Revelation, and only near the end of the game. iirc.

So while the trailer had some fun with the Branch of Fate thing (which is honestly the best way a Corrin trailer could've been done), Smash's Corrin is likely from after Revelation's endgame.

daaaaang, that makes sense!! you're smart!

i'll give you something you can't explain in canon though!!

Tactician Robin uses Nosferatu! ??? Only Dark Mages can use dark magic! :^(

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

daaaaang, that makes sense!! you're smart! :LAUGH:

i'll give you something you can't explain in canon though!!

Tactician Robin uses Nosferatu! ??? Only Dark Mages can use dark magic! :^(

Can't he change his class to Dark Mage in Awakening?

 

[MBRedboy31]

Or it's just a reference to the newly released game of the time?

None of the AC games are direct sequels to each other, though (sure, things change with several of the characters, but, every town has alternate reality clones of all of the main characters, so that is sorta irrelevant,) so we don’t know what happened in the Wild World town in the long run. So, that probably-not-canon-but-it’s-all-we’ve-got title on Boxing Ring we kinda have to accept as pseudo canon.

 

[Pokechu]

Can't he promote to Dark Mage in Awakening?

But in Smash he's a tactician. And if you switch classes you lose the weapons exclusive to those classes. :^(

I think Robin says he/she/they/them/it? is a tactician in a victory pose and their trophy.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't know. Not every generation had starters who looked feminine in any way. Generations 1, 3, and 4 are probably the most notable. One could argue that the 5th generation also lacked any feminine-looking starters, but the Snivy family could potentially go either way.

I fail to see how any of the starters in that gen look feminine in any way.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

None of the AC games are direct sequels to each other, though (sure, things change with several of the characters, but, every town has alternate reality clones of all of the main characters, so that is sorta irrelevant,) so we don’t know what happened in the Wild World town in the long run. So, that probably-not-canon-but-it’s-all-we’ve-got title on Boxing Ring we kinda have to accept as pseudo canon.

But Villager also uses the fireworks as his up smash, which is exclusive to New Leaf.

So maybe he's a bit of a composite?