Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[SuperSmashStephen]

Okay, in conjunction with the whole 12 Newcomers Challenge. Would you guys rather do a 10 Stage Challenge or 10 PokéBall Pokémon Challenge?

 

[SquashiniKun]

Okay, in conjunction with the whole 12 Newcomers Challenge. Would you guys rather do a 10 Stage Challenge or 10 PokéBall Pokémon Challenge?

10 Stage Challenge

 

[Cosmic77]

At this point, I might as well change my username to "Champion Defender".

It's more likely that Sakurai would add the Champions as AT's, if anything. But I don't think that happens, nor do I think they'd make the Main Roster. DLC perhaps, but remember that if the first project plan was done by December 2015, even a revised plan in mid-2016 would mean no Champions. Same goes for the people that want Rex/Pyra and Spring Man.

(1) Unlikely all four of them will be AT's at this point. We'd have seen at least one by now if they were (not to mention a Gaurdian would probably be a better choice for a BotW Assist Trophy). Not impossible to see one or two, but not all of them are going this route.

(2) The first project plan being completed in 2015 does not mean the roster was finalized by then. The staff wasn't even hired yet, and Sakurai was likely busy working on basic elements for the game rather than just thinking about which newcomers to add. Heck, the Switch wasn't even a thing back then.

(3) Just like with Spring Man and Rex/Pyra, concept art for the Champion definitely existed by mid-2016. Seeing how BotW was showcased at E3 2016 and there was still a solid two and a half years left for production, I doubt bad timing will be the reason why the Champions might not get in.

I think people are just jumping through hoops to try to claim that the Champions are main characters or would be on Sakurai's radar just because they're desperate for a Zelda newcomer. None of the champions are on the level of say... Rosalina in Galaxy 1, or Palutena in Uprising, when it comes to being noteworthy supporting characters. Or even previous Zelda one-offs like Midna. And I don't personally believe Sakurai would change the roster for them; he made a point that doing so with Sonic delayed the game.

Zelda is just stuck in a nebulous limbo with characters. I don't see Sakurai attempting to add one for the sake of expanding the franchise's ranks.

I'll have to respectfully disagree. Even if the Champions aren't on the levels of Midna and Skull Kid, BotW was a ground-breaking game. Just because they don't have that same level of iconicness now doesn't mean that they'll never be able to get there.

Besides, all four them have wonderful moveset potential. It's not like I'm supporting a bunch of sitting ducks who can't work in Smash.

That's a year after the project plan proposal, a reminder that the only characters ever added to the roster after the project plan was done were the Melee clones, the Smash 4 alt-costume clones, and Sonic, while Sonic got that exception because he was originally planned (with Sega rejecting the initial request) and was put back in when Sega changed their mind because he was the most requested character by such a massive margin and because it's ****ing Sonic. The Champions are no Sonic, and if Sakurai was desperate for a Zelda newcomer, he would have just went with Skull Kid or Impa or any of the other existing Zelda characters to begin with, instead of waiting until mid-development and then deciding to pick one of the Champions.

Same thing I told KingBroly. Highly unlikely the whole roster was decided three years before the release, especially when the focus was bringing back content from previous games. That's even longer than the entire development time it took to create both Smash 3DS and Wii U combined.

And while Impa and Skull Kid could've easily been chosen if Sakurai was specifically looking for a Zelda newcomer, "Zelda Wii U" was in development since 2012. Sakurai was well-aware of BotW's existence way before the first project plan, and unlike Sonic, adding a single Champion as late as even March 2017 wouldn't be impossible, as there was still quite a bit of development time left.

With a game like BotW, yes, I could see Sakurai "pulling a Sonic" if he saw potential in one of the Champs.

 

[_Sheik]

Am I the only one who feels like there's way too many things we don't know about the game?

 

[Pyra]

People definitely said Cloud was impossible. As far as I know Sakurai loves Persona (it's been confirmed he's a week). Also it would be a huge hype character in Japan.

But yea just want him for the music, so I don't really care that much lol. I think I'd like how he would play though.

Cloud at least was in Theatrhythm, right? My man Joker only was on a Nintendo console in the form of a costume your CAC could wear in Sonic Forces.

Maybe Sonic will get a Joker costume. Hahaha.

Don't get me wrong, I'll be hype as hell

Am I the only one who feels like there's way too many things we don't know about the game?

That's probably because they've done almost nothing talking about the game itself- just most of the characters, some of the items, and some mechanic changes and new features. As far as I know, we've not seen the majority of the stuff the game has to offer yet.

 

[Lady Byakugan]

People definitely said Cloud was impossible. As far as I know Sakurai loves Persona (it's been confirmed he's a week). Also it would be a huge hype character in Japan.

But yea just want him for the music, so I don't really care that much lol. I think I'd like how he would play though.

A Persona character getting in would be the closest to a Jojo character we can get. Plus, I'm all for another Sega rep

 

[StormC]

I don't think Spring-Man or Rex/Pyra are in the base game either.

If I'm wrong I'm wrong. But it's hard to imagine how these characters fit into the game when both Brawl and 4's development cycles made a point that the roster was the very first thing decided.

 

[SlickWylde]

Personally I'm glad this speculation period is shortened and a lot of uncertainties are cleared up. Smash speculation is not good for my health and I'm not getting any younger. The table has been cleared at this point and right or wrong... we'll know the end result in a few months.

Boooooooring! It's much more fun to watch monthly cycles of mania, depression, anger, and fans working themselves into frenzies!

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Kowboy K Rool is a very strong theme.

Yes, although I like a Roman Empire theme myself (K.Rooligula?).

 

[Pakky]

Okay, in conjunction with the whole 12 Newcomers Challenge. Would you guys rather do a 10 Stage Challenge or 10 PokéBall Pokémon Challenge?

Tapu Koko

Spring Gym

Saturn Valley

Cerulean Cave

Gyromite

Dr. Mario?

That's all I got

 

[Idon]

Boooooooring! It's much more fun to watch monthly cycles of mania, depression, anger, and fans working themselves into frenzies!

Well, 165 days of that should be enough for anyone I'd hope.

 

[KingBroly]

At this point, I might as well change my username to "Champion Defender".
(1) Unlikely all four of them will be AT's at this point. We'd have seen at least one by now if they were (not to mention a Gaurdian would probably be a better choice for a BotW Assist Trophy). Not impossible to see one or two, but not all of them are going this route.
(2) The first project plan being completed in 2015 does not mean the roster was finalized by then. The staff wasn't even hired yet, and Sakurai was likely busy working on basic elements for the game rather than just thinking about which newcomers to add. Heck, the Switch wasn't even a thing back then.
(3) Just like with Spring Man and Rex/Pyra, concept art for the Champion definitely existed by mid-2016. Seeing how BotW was showcased at E3 2016 and there was still a solid two and a half years left for production, I doubt bad timing will be the reason why the Champions might not get in.

I put it out there that the Design Plan may have changed at some point. My thinking is that "AT BEST" all 4 are AT's. From what we've seen so far, the Switch content in the game is pretty lackluster for BotW and middling for Odyssey. To me, that's about the best we're going to get from Switch content at launch.

 

[Pyra]

Okay, in conjunction with the whole 12 Newcomers Challenge. Would you guys rather do a 10 Stage Challenge or 10 PokéBall Pokémon Challenge?

Stages to be honest

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Highly unlikely the whole roster was decided three years before the release,

You're right, it's more likely that almost all of the roster was decided in December 2015 with Sakurai waiting some time later (probably until May or something if the May 2016 update is of any indication) to finalize his choice of a specific Gen 7 Pokemon.

I don't think Spring-Man or Rex/Pyra are in the base game either.

If I'm wrong I'm wrong. But it's hard to imagine how these characters fit into the game when both Brawl and 4's development cycles made a point that the roster was the very first thing decided.

In the case of a hypothetical Xenoblade newcomers, Elma would be the one to get in as she'd be the latest Xenoblade at the time the roster was conceptualised, particularly with the international release date of her game being in the same month (and we know thanks to Corrin they matter).

On a slightly different topic, how would Skull Kid play like if he hypothetically were a playable character in Ultimate?

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Am I the only one who feels like there's way too many things we don't know about the game?

I think we all feel this way. We have known nothing about this game and even after the tons of information at e3, we still haven’t scratched the surface.

 

[KingBroly]

I think we all feel this way. We have known nothing about this game and even after the tons of information at e3, we still haven’t scratched the surface.

Well...we don't many of the Modes. I think we're at 1, and that goes up to 8 players.

 

[CodakTheWarrior]

At this point, I might as well change my username to "Champion Defender".



(1) Unlikely all four of them will be AT's at this point. We'd have seen at least one by now if they were (not to mention a Gaurdian would probably be a better choice for a BotW Assist Trophy). Not impossible to see one or two, but not all of them are going this route.

(2) The first project plan being completed in 2015 does not mean the roster was finalized by then. The staff wasn't even hired yet, and Sakurai was likely busy working on basic elements for the game rather than just thinking about which newcomers to add. Heck, the Switch wasn't even a thing back then.

(3) Just like with Spring Man and Rex/Pyra, concept art for the Champion definitely existed by mid-2016. Seeing how BotW was showcased at E3 2016 and there was still a solid two and a half years left for production, I doubt bad timing will be the reason why the Champions might not get in.



I'll have to respectfully disagree. Even if the Champions aren't on the levels of Midna and Skull Kid, BotW was a ground-breaking game. Just because they don't have that same level of iconicness now doesn't mean that they'll never be able to get there.

Besides, all four them have wonderful moveset potential. It's not like I'm supporting a bunch of sitting ducks who can't work in Smash.



Same thing I told KingBroly. Highly unlikely the whole roster was decided three years before the release, especially when the focus was bringing back content from previous games. That's even longer than the entire development time it took to create both Smash 3DS and Wii U combined.

And while Impa and Skull Kid could've easily been chosen if Sakurai was specifically looking for a Zelda newcomer, "Zelda Wii U" was in development since 2012. Sakurai was well-aware of BotW's existence way before the first project plan, and unlike Sonic, adding a single Champion as late as even March 2017 wouldn't be impossible, as there was still quite a bit of development time left.

With a game like BotW, yes, I could see Sakurai "pulling a Sonic" if he saw potential in one of the Champs.

You make some very reasonable points, but to think they will get in as playable is quite unreasonable. None if the champions are more popular than the other, so there couldn't be only one added, and there's no way four one-off Zelda characters would be added when we have an already limited newcomer selection.

 

[splat]

Okay, in conjunction with the whole 12 Newcomers Challenge. Would you guys rather do a 10 Stage Challenge or 10 PokéBall Pokémon Challenge?

Both.

1. Bowser's Castle (Mario)
2. Evershade Valley (Luigi's Mansion 2)
3. Altar of the Sunne/Moone (Pokémon Sun/Moon)
4. Holoseum (Custom Robo)
5. Void Soul (Kirby Star Allies)
6. Tower of Hera (Zelda: a Link Between Worlds)
7. Rice Beach (WarioLand)
8. Serenes Forest Altar (Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance)
9. Golden Temple (Donkey Kong Returns)
10. Meta Crystal (Smash Bros.)

And:

1. Stakataka - Iron Defense - Sits still and functions as an extra pair of walls and a platform
2. Turtonator - Shell Trap - Similar to Wobbuffet in previous iterations, but deals major damage if you attack him from the wrong end
3. Sandyghast - Sand Tomb - Creates a sand pit, trapping people
4. Magikarp - Rage - Start off flopping around, but if he's taking a bit of a beating it'll evolve and return the favor
5. Victreebel - Swallow - Tries to eat you, similar to what it did with James in the anime
6. Xatu - Future Sight - Shines bright before disappearing. After 15 seconds or so, the spot where it used to be will explode
7. Drifloon - Levitate - Tries to abduct you, similar to the Beetle item
8. Trubbish - Sludge - Just moves around slowly. Poisons the area below him, hurting foes that'll touch it
9. Litwick - Will-o-wisp - Burns nearby enemies, dealing minor damage
10. Ditto - Transform - Turns into a level 3 CPU copy of the person summoning it

 

[CJ Falcon]

You make some very reasonable points, but to think they will get in as playable is quite unreasonable. None if the champions are more popular than the other, so there couldn't be only one added, and there's no way four one-off Zelda characters would be added when we have an already limited newcomer selection.

Idk I think the fish girl is significantly more popular.

 

[Cosmic77]

You make some very reasonable points, but to think they will get in as playable is quite unreasonable. None if the champions are more popular than the other, so there couldn't be only one added, and there's no way four one-off Zelda characters would be added when we have an already limited newcomer selection.

Which is why I said.

As far as putting them on the roster, all four Champions are equally important, and I don't see why he should feel obligated to add all of them as individual characters. From my perspective, it should be as simple as Sakurai just picking the Champion he thinks would be best for Smash.

Out of all the reasons people come up with for why a Champion can't get in, this one frustrates me the most. These guys have they're own individual identities, and they're not this single mutant character like people make them out to be. The world will not come to a screeching halt if Sakurai decided to put in Mipha but not the other three.

Idk I think the fish girl is significantly more popular.

Not as popular as fish boy.

 

[DarkFalcon]

(2) The first project plan being completed in 2015 does not mean the roster was finalized by then. The staff wasn't even hired yet, and Sakurai was likely busy working on basic elements for the game rather than just thinking about which newcomers to add. Heck, the Switch wasn't even a thing back then.

Actually, I'm pretty certain this IS the case. The only characters that are later added are clones. Sonic was the one exception, but he was originally part of Brawl's plan and SEGA initially denied before changing their minds. Causing the game to be delayed.

I know there's a source for this and someone posted it before, I just can't find it.

 

[CodakTheWarrior]

Which is why I said.



Out of all the reasons people come up with for why a Champion can't get in, this one frustrates me the most. These guys have they're own individual identities, and they're not this single mutant character like people make them out to be. The world will not come to a screeching halt if Sakurai decided to put in Mipha but not the other three.



Not as popular as fish boy.

Ok, I realize that now, my bad. I just have trouble seeing a recent character like that get in over a fan favorite like Skull Kid, Vaati, Tingle, Midna, etc., especially when this game seems to be heavily centered on fan pleasing.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Anyone find it weird that they gave a sword to the one version of Ganondorf who never used a sword?

 

[Will]

Anyone find it weird that they gave a sword to the one version of Ganondorf who never used a sword?

Why does everyone forget?

 

[Pakky]

Anyone find it weird that they gave a sword to the one version of Ganondorf who never used a sword?

Space world demo reference?

 

[splat]

Anyone find it weird that they gave a sword to the one version of Ganondorf who never used a sword?

Sakurai just can’t win, can he?

 

[BrytonJ]

Honestly, I kind of wish the champions showed up for link's final smash in some capacity. Oh well, the ancient bow is still cool.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

The difference is, to me at least, is that we just know farrrr too much right now.

Imagine how socks off blowing it would have been if we had gone to the pic of the day and suddenly, Snake.


Outside of stages(Which they have a loooooooooot to go through), and Assist trophies, we can't really bank on new reveals outside of Directs, and the suspense of "Is my main coming back?" is gone, since well, EVERYONE is coming back.

You think you "know too much" right now. You have no idea how much content is in the game, and it's six months from release, so comparatively we should know a large amount of the content at this point. Additionally with all the veterans revealed, you no longer are going to have reveals spent on characters we already know are going to be in; no waking up for a reveal just to see that it's the likes of Luigi and Peach are back. And judging by the reactions everywhere, Snake's return was even more mind-blowing to people to see in the trailer (especially punctuated by the "EVERYONE IS HERE!") instead of as just a pic on a random day.

(2) The first project plan being completed in 2015 does not mean the roster was finalized by then. The staff wasn't even hired yet, and Sakurai was likely busy working on basic elements for the game rather than just thinking about which newcomers to add. Heck, the Switch wasn't even a thing back then.

(3) Just like with Spring Man and Rex/Pyra, concept art for the Champion definitely existed by mid-2016. Seeing how BotW was showcased at E3 2016 and there was still a solid two and a half years left for production, I doubt bad timing will be the reason why the Champions might not get in.



I'll have to respectfully disagree. Even if the Champions aren't on the levels of Midna and Skull Kid, BotW was a ground-breaking game. Just because they don't have that same level of iconicness now doesn't mean that they'll never be able to get there.

Besides, all four them have wonderful moveset potential. It's not like I'm supporting a bunch of sitting ducks who can't work in Smash.



Same thing I told KingBroly. Highly unlikely the whole roster was decided three years before the release, especially when the focus was bringing back content from previous games. That's even longer than the entire development time it took to create both Smash 3DS and Wii U combined.

And while Impa and Skull Kid could've easily been chosen if Sakurai was specifically looking for a Zelda newcomer, "Zelda Wii U" was in development since 2012. Sakurai was well-aware of BotW's existence way before the first project plan, and unlike Sonic, adding a single Champion as late as even March 2017 wouldn't be impossible, as there was still quite a bit of development time left.

With a game like BotW, yes, I could see Sakurai "pulling a Sonic" if he saw potential in one of the Champs.

I don't know why there's still people in denial about the roster being decided at that time. Melee's, Brawl's, and Smash 4's rosters were decided before any development began, it's just basic game development, the whole roster has to be planned before there's any real development so that they can plan the timetable and budget for it appropriately. Planned characters can be cut from it mid-development to meet developmental demands, but the inverse can't happen; just one non-clone being added mid-development will delay the game, again a reminder that Sonic's inclusion was solely responsible for one of Brawl's delays. And this is also the age of DLC; if a super important and popular and unique character somehow comes along mid-development that Sakurai just absolutely wants to add, he can just wait for DLC to do it instead of delaying the game for a single character; this isn't like Brawl where Sonic had to be added in then or never. And how "ground-breaking" of a game BOTW is doesn't matter, it didn't release until March 2017, so popularity is absolutely not a factor here, while the Champions do not compare whatsoever to how huge a deal getting Sonic in Brawl was.

 

[Chandeelure]

Did you guys see this?
It looks incredible.

It's cool to think that in some months we will have awesome videos like this one, but about Ridley lol.

 

[KMDP]

Rice Beach (WarioLand)

Thanks, splat . Now I REALLY want this to happen. Even though it probably won't.

This is your fault! *shakes fist*

 

[Enchess]

Okay, in conjunction with the whole 12 Newcomers Challenge. Would you guys rather do a 10 Stage Challenge or 10 PokéBall Pokémon Challenge?

EDIT: wants, not predictions

Stages:
1. Lockjaw's Locker, 2. SR388 (Queen in background), 3. Vale, 4. Bowser's Castle, 5. All God's Village, 6. Picross (no idea how it'd work, but I want), 7. Banana Fairy cave, 8. Waverace, 9. Ruffian infested city, 10. Golden Diva arena

Pokemon:
1. Trubbish, 2. Lapras, 3. Popplio, 4. Ditto, 5. Chandelure, 6. Darmanitan, 7. Joltik, 8. Lillipup, 9. Musharna, 10. Volcarona

 

[Will]

Did you guys see this?

The editing is incredible.

It's cool to think in some months we will have videos like this, but about Ridley lol.

Dude, that reminds me of those Brawl TAS videos. Basically it's tool-assisted so that all the players tech and fight hard for the ultimate combo video. Obviously no person could probably replicate them yet but they're amazing. Snake vs MK was my favorite one, probably because of that beggining cutscene.

So good.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Yeah, a BOTW Champion, with as little content as BotW had and the fact that it technically already has Link and Shiek repping it, I sincerely doubt it'll happen. They'll be trophies at best.

BotW wasn't groundbreaking when the development started since it had not come out yet. I think it's best to give up hope unless we believe literally half of the popularly requested newcomers got the Greninja treatment in this game which, might I remind everyone, is HIGHLY unlikely. Only two out of these "concept design" arguments for characters will get in at absolute best.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Rice Beach (WarioLand)

Alas, my heart knows this can never happen.

 

[-crump-]

E3 was only two weeks ago, and I’m already starving for new information. Even though I think it’s unlikely, I’m really hoping they’ll announce another newcomer or shed some light on a new mode by July’s end.
Despite my best efforts to contain myself, I’m already going through Smash withdrawal

 

[DarkFalcon]

Also. The plan being done late 2015 explains why Mario and Link don't have full redesigns. Cappy is just a cameo, and Link isn't a full on redesign, just some elements of BOTW.

Stages and music aren't as difficult as characters either, so Mario having an Odyssey level with music from that game isn't nearly as hard to implement later in development compared to a brand new character.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Also. The plan being done late 2015 explains why Mario and Link don't have full redesigns. Cappy is just a cameo, and Link isn't a full on redesign, just some elements of BOTW.

Stages and music aren't as difficult as characters either, so Mario having an Odyssey level with music from that game isn't nearly as hard to implement later in development compared to a brand new character.

Keep in mind that Oddysey finished development before January 2017 and Breath of The Wild was delayed multiple times, one of them being for the reason relating to issues with the physics engine. Those two games getting significant content representation is no surprise to me.

 

[Troykv]

Dude, that reminds me of those Brawl TAS videos. Basically it's tool-assisted so that all the players tech and fight hard for the ultimate combo video. Obviously no person could probably replicate them yet but they're amazing. Snake vs MK was my favorite one, probably because of that beggining cutscene.

So good.

Damn; this TAS remind me why MK is so overpower in Brawl xD

 

[MainJPW]

Anyone find it weird that they gave a sword to the one version of Ganondorf who never used a sword?

I’m starting to think Sakurai just liked what he saw from the 2000 Spaceworld demo, which probably explains why he gave Ganondorf the sword in his Melee render.

That’s practically what he is when you think about it: Spaceworld Ganondorf.

 

[KMDP]

Dude, that reminds me of those Brawl TAS videos. Basically it's tool-assisted so that all the players tech and fight hard for the ultimate combo video. Obviously no person could probably replicate them yet but they're amazing. Snake vs MK was my favorite one, probably because of that beggining cutscene.

So good.

That was... that was... what the hell did I just watch?
(Disclaimer: I know what a TAS is.)