Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[KMDP]

The reason I like the idea of Eggman so much for Smash is several things:

1. I think he's just as "iconic" if not more than the already suggested ones (Tails/Shadow)
2. The main antagonist of the series, big boy villain demanders get a payoff
3. Sick themes, sick robots, and I adore how the English VA portrays him
4. Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings didn't sell me completely on the mech character. Eggman can easily flesh that out by using the playable design we got from SA2, or they could merge his original trilogy (+ Mania) vehicles into one.
5. Final Smash where he blows you up with the ****ing moon via the Death Egg or bust

He must say "Yosh" when he picks up an item.

EDIT: Darkest timeline, we get Eggman and Tails, but one's an alt of the other.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

Shadow as a semi-clone makes way more sense actually and honestly just because echo fighters are a thing doesn't mean Shadow has to be one. He should definitely retain the homing attack and side spin dash but I'd like to see his up special changed to chaos control. It functions similar to Pikachu's up special instead of Mewtwo's since SA2 explains that Shadow technically can't teleport but Chaos Control makes him fast enough to the point where it looks like he's teleporting. His down special should be Chaos Control but it slows down the opponent instead of speeding himself up and it works very similarly to Bayonetta's witch time.

 

[Fenriraga]

I dunno, it could get us "Rumbling HWY... For Mission Street"...

...Wait, what am I saying? I don't want Tails in a Mech!

Don't forget Sonic Battle, where he was the most different from Sonic (not that it diminishes your point any).

There's sonic battle too but tbh those powers were made up for that game for the sake of differentiating him from sonic, he's never really used anything like that again in his playable roles, he went right back to being a sonic clone in sonic heroes and shadow the hedgehog

I don't QUITE count Battle as a mainline game? I dunno, it's about the closest to mainline a spin off can get in a lot of ways.

But yeah, everyone needed to have moves to give themselves a proper identity, not just Shadow. So doesn't quite change the argument that much, as you've said.

 

[Will]

Darkest timeline, we get Eggman and Tails, but one's an alt of the other.

How's that dark? That's perfectly fine. As long as I still get that funny boxing glove that has more knockback than Ganon's side tilt.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

There's sonic battle too but tbh those powers were made up for that game for the sake of differentiating him from sonic, he's never really used anything like that again in his playable roles, he went right back to being a sonic clone in sonic heroes and shadow the hedgehog

To be fair, Chaos Blast is pretty clearly a remake of Chaos Burst, but better. Shadow Teleport, his Air Action move(as in second jumping ability) is pretty much a controllable variant of Chaos Control used short term, which isn't really that much different with how he directly uses Chaos Control in Shadow The Hedgehog.

Also, he has karate chops in Shadow too. So some of it was integrated design-wise, as while Shadow still clearly has similarities to Sonic, the guns, karate chops, flip kicks, Chaos Blast, and Chaos Control are very unique gameplay. Oh, and Chaos Spear while in Super Shadow form is more like a hand laser than a remake of Sonic Wind.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

Then he wouldn't be an echo fighter, he'd be a semi clone.

Echo fighters are 1:1 clones.

But would Sakurai just stick to that rule tho?

like it shouldn't be difficult, if he finds it nesccary for Shadows character he should just rip off another move from another fighter

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Wait, what? How did you come to that conclusion?
It's not impossible for Shadow to be an echo fighter.
That's not to say that I expect Shadow to be in SSBU, because I don't, but I don't really see how you came to that conclusion via that evidence.

Do you really not understand? I literally explained why in the post you are replying too.

Echo Fighters are nearly IDENTICAL to their base fighters. This means they share almost all animations when their base fighter. I already said: "Dr. Mario, Pichu, and Wolf are not labelled as Echo Fighters."

Sonic has too many animations that would have to be completely different in order for Shadow to be portrayed appropriately.

These animations include: Idle pose, running, Up Throw, Up Special, Side Smash, crouch, etc.

This is like saying it's not impossible for Daisy and Dark Pit to be costumes. Yeah. It's not IMPOSSIBLE. It's just that Sakurai has higher standards for characters than that. It's not "impossible" to replace all the character models with bologna sandwiches. And nobody said it was impossible.

And please don't come to me with some half baked argument that "Daisy uses Toads, so how can you say portraying characters accurately matters? There's no standards, right, because Alph uses the Hocatate Ship! Just make all the characters into costumes."

 

[Shroob]

But would Sakurai just stick to that rule tho?

like it shouldn't be difficult, if he finds it nesccary for Shadows character he should just rip off another move from another fighter

Then why is Doctor Mario not an Echo?

Echo is pretty established from what we've seen.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

Then why is Doctor Mario not an Echo?

Echo is pretty established from what we've seen.

oh right

dr mario

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Lucina doesn't need to be an echo fighter of Marth: Her fighting style in Awakening is completely different from Marth's.

Dark Pit doesn't need to be an echo fighter of Pit: He can use different weapons from Uprising, mainly focusing on the Dark Pit Staff.

Daisy doesn't need to be an echo fighter of Peach: She can perform plant based moves and use more sports equipment, plus Peach has abilities/equipment that Daisy has never performed/utilizied.

Just because a character can be a unique fighter doesn't mean they will.

 

[Will]

Isn't it funny how Dr. Mario's from a game that requires strategy and puzzle skills when his playstyle is almost the exact opposite.

 

[KMDP]

A Shadow Moveset​

Neutral B: Homing Attack (if you hold the Special Button while using it, Shadow will hang in the air after hitting the opponent like in Sonic '06 so you can use aerial attacks)
Side B: Chaos Spear (throws three spears at once outwards, up if on the ground, down if in the air)
Up B: Chaos Control (a warp like Zelda/Mewtwo/Palutena, reappears in a swirling bubble that can damage enemies)
Down B: Spin Dash (same as Sonic)

Neutral Attacks: His chop/kick basic combo from Sonic Battle.
Neutral Air Attacks: The air attacks he does in '06.
Forward Tilt: Roundhouse Kick
Forward Aerial: A double fist hammer punch (like in the Shadow the Hedgehog intro)
Dash Attack: Fire Somersault (If you jump during this, Shadow jumps higher, like in SA2)
Down Aerial: Same as Sonic's because Sonic literally took it from Shadow.

This is all I got so far, pretty much.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

All they would really need to do is change his running and idle animations. Shadow could copy all of Sonic's moves, and it would work fine.

No. That's not true. I know in the smash community people can make really horrible downloadable mods of Shadow's model in place of Sonic and be like "Look, Shadow is in my Smash game now." But, game designers take character portrayal pretty seriously. Especially when they are lending their characters to another company.

Super Smash Bros characters consist of more than just four special moves. Shadow crouching the way Sonic does, using the goofy Side Smash, Using the Up Throw with the quills, or having his recovery sold short with a classic spring instead of Chaos Control, is really not something I see happening.

There's way more to Shadow then you give him credit for. He really doesn't share as many similarities with Sonic as Daisy, Lucina, and Dark Pit do with their characters.

You can argue that those other animations don't add up enough to enough differences (even though they are pretty close to the amount of difference Dr. Mario has) for Shadow to not qualify as an Echo. But, don't tell me you can just change the idle and running animation and "Vela! There's Shadow The Hedgehog, guys."

I'm sorry it's so crazy to think you can't just paste a model over any character based solely on their appearance, because I know everyone so was shocked that I dared to suggest Pac-Man and Ms. Pac-Man actually have different quirks and characteristics, and that maybe characters should be held to higher standards than that.

 

[Will]

A Shadow Moveset​

Neutral B: Homing Attack (if you hold the Special Button while using it, Shadow will hang in the air after hitting the opponent like in Sonic '06 so you can use aerial attacks)
Side B: Chaos Spear (throws three spears at once outwards, up if on the ground, down if in the air)
Up B: Chaos Control (a warp like Zelda/Mewtwo/Palutena, appears in a swirling bubble that can damage enemies)
Down B: Spin Dash (same as Sonic)

Neutral Attacks: His chop/kick combo from Sonic Battle.
Neutral Air Attacks: The air attacks he does in '06.
Forward Attack: Roundhouse Kick
Forward Aerial: A double fist hammer punch (like in the Shadow the Hedgehog intro)
Down Aerial: Same as Sonic's because Sonic literally took it from Shadow.

This is all I got so far, pretty much.

I'm sure the MYM staff would be proud. I've considered doing work on there but yowza that takes a lot of time and effort

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Do you really not understand? I literally explained why in the post you are replying too.

Echo Fighters are nearly IDENTICAL to their base fighters. This means they share almost all animations when their base fighter. I already said: "Dr. Mario, Pichu, and Wolf are not labelled as Echo Fighters."

Sonic has too many animations that would have to be completely different in order for Shadow to be portrayed appropriately.

These animations include: Idle pose, running, Up Throw, Up Special, Side Smash, crouch, etc.

This is like saying it's not impossible for Daisy and Dark Pit to be costumes. Yeah. It's not IMPOSSIBLE. It's just that Sakurai has higher standards for characters than that. It's not "impossible" to replace all the character models with bologna sandwiches. And nobody said it was impossible.

And please don't come to me with some half baked argument that "Daisy uses Toads, so how can you say portraying characters accurately matters? There's no standards, right, because Alph uses the Hocatate Ship! Just make all the characters into costumes."

They can change the idle and running pose easily, but what's wrong with him using up throw, up special, side smash or sonic's crouch? those don't feel like they'd be unfitting for shadow at all. The only one that may seem a little strange is side smash but as lucina's shield breaker has shown the animation can change as long as the hitbox is unaffected, and him using it unchanged wouldn't even be strange at all to me, just change the goofy facial expression

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

From what I remember, idle animations don't have to match the original character to be an echo. Not sure about running animations, though.

 

[Shroob]

That, and the question is WOULD Sakurai even make a 3rd party echo?

As far as I have been told, Sakurai treats 3rd party characters as "Honored guests", making one an echo doesn't seem like he'd be showing them the respect that they deserve.


I'm really not sold on "Shadow wasn't shown at E3, he must be an echo!"

I don't see why a 3rd party can't have 2 assist trophies tbh. Limiting them to 1 always stunted just how much you could show of a series, especially one as big as Sonic's.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

From what I remember, idle animations don't have to match the original character to be an echo. Not sure about running animations, though.

They don't have to MATCH the character, but the way echoes get made are when the director sees someone who can easily be made with animations that were already created. That's where the appeal comes from for potential echo fighters.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

They don't have to MATCH the character, but the way echoes get made are when the director sees someone who can easily be made with animations that were already created. That's where the appeal comes from for potential echo fighters.

Okay, so they can be different. It seems the biggest thing is actual moves, and how they need to be really similar(Final Smash aside). Thank you.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

That, and the question is WOULD Sakurai even make a 3rd party echo?

As far as I have been told, Sakurai treats 3rd party characters as "Honored guests", making one an echo doesn't seem like he'd be showing them the respect that they deserve.


I'm really not sold on "Shadow wasn't shown at E3, he must be an echo!"

I don't see why a 3rd party can't have 2 assist trophies tbh. Limiting them to 1 always stunted just how much you could show of a series, especially one as big as Sonic's.

Who knows really but echoes act like glorified alternate costumes, they don't really feel like proper characters anyway and I don't think making shadow an echo would really be disrespectful to his character really. There's also the fact that Sega have been pushing Shadow heavily recently what with forces and that new racing game.

 

[Will]

I'm really not sold on "Shadow wasn't shown at E3, he must be an echo!"

The only one I'm sold on is Metroid missing her Dark Metroid costume, but it may have just been left out of the demo but the possibility of another clone Echo for her is up there I think. Can't speak the same for Chrom, Sakurai's concerns about having a lot of FE boys makes me undecided.

 

[KMDP]

That, and the question is WOULD Sakurai even make a 3rd party echo?

As I've said before, the only one I can really see is Ken, and that's only because that's literally his role in the early Street Fighters (before he became more unique).

 

[Shroob]

Who knows really but echoes act like glorified alternate costumes, they don't really feel like proper characters anyway and I don't think making shadow an echo would really be disrespectful to his character really. There's also the fact that Sega have been pushing Shadow heavily recently what with forces and that new racing game.

That's pretty disrespectful if you ask me.

Sakurai, "Hey, can I also use Shadow as well?"

SEGA, "Sure, why?"

Sakurai, "I'm going to make him a glorified alt.costume."

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Daisy does have a unique idle animation in case people didn't realize. (It's not just the pose, she's more energetic in her idle animation, so far this is the only echo fighter to have such a distinction).

It seems pretty clear that echo fighters need to share the same animations for pretty much all of their moves (Final Smash's don't seem to count Dark Pit has a Final Smash that is different from Pit's, they even went out of their way to create the model for his staff, so far this is the only echo fighter to have such of a distinction).

They also need to share reletivaly the same stats (although Lucina's damage and knock back for all of her moves are different from Marth's, so far this is the only echo fighter to have such a distinction.

We really don't know how far Sakurai is willing to go for animations that don't affect the fight.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

That's pretty disrespectful if you ask me.

Sakurai, "Hey, can I also use Shadow as well?"

SEGA, "Sure, why?"

Sakurai, "I'm going to make him a glorified alt.costume."

Sega has no problem as it just means extra royalties

 

[Captain Shwampy]

Daisy seems a lot more different in animations compared to Dark Pit tbh

I Think echo fighters in this game will probably be polished fairly enough compared to how clones were previously

 

[Shroob]

Sega has no problem as it just means extra royalties

Sure, but that's also not how Sakurai rolls.

Sakurai's said himself that 3rd party characters are basically honored guests.

Making one a 'glorified alt costume' isn't something that he'd do.

 

[KMDP]

Sega has no problem as it just means extra royalties

Just so long as they use Chemical Plant!

 

[Captain Shwampy]

Just so long as they use Chemical Plant!

Stardust Speedway would be a cooler stage tbh

Metal sonic can even pop out as a hazard

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Apparently having Shadow do a wind up punch would be unfitting of his character, so they wouldn't let him do it.

But Ganondorf doing this is perfectly accurate?

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

Sakurai was saying not to expect too many newcomers, so I'm thinking we may have 8 original newcomers like in Melee, two semi-clones (Dixie Kong and Shadow) and then about 4 Echo Fighters.

So about the amount of newcomers, original and clones, that were in Melee.

Okay, I’ll bite. That seems very plausible. I’d consider that a low amount as well. 12 would actually be the lowest ever. As for who they are, I believe the following have the strongest chances.

Originals: *which I define as having unique moveset*
Inkling (Confirmed), Ridley (Confirmed), King K. Rool, Paper Mario, A Gen VII Pokémon, A Rhythm Heaven Rep, Bandana Dee, A Retro Rep

Semi-Clones: Dixie Kong and Isabelle.

Echoes: Daisy (confirmed), Impa (Sheik), Medusa (Palutena), and Shadow (Sonic)
I think Echo Fighter is just fancy terminology for a clone that’s damn near a glorified alt skin, and I still not convinced they’ll be an abundance of them. Just because they are easy to make doesn’t mean they’ll be a lot of them. But who am I to know? Nobody.

These are all just the characters I think have the most potential. I only think we’ll get about a total of 12 newcomers for base roster.

And as a bonus most potential for DLC:
Spring Man or Ribbon Girl
Rex & Pyra
A Fire Emblem: Three Houses Character

I don’t buy the Verg leaks 100% yet. If Simon is revealed then it will be gospel, but until then I’m skeptical.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Apparently having Shadow do a wind up punch would be unfitting of his character, so they wouldn't let him do it.

But Ganondorf doing this is perfectly accurate?View attachment 149517

The worst part is that this is modified from Falcon's own Up Tilt. He could've just kept the regular axe kick... although to be fair, it's immensely powerful if it ever does hit.

...And it did help spawn a joke about Wii Fit Trainer helping Ganondorf after using it.

 

[Shroob]

Apparently having Shadow do a wind up punch would be unfitting of his character, so they wouldn't let him do it.

But Ganondorf doing this is perfectly accurate?View attachment 149517

Ganon's not an echo.

In fact, Sakurai's gone out of his way to actually finally give the fans what they've wanted with him this game.

 

[Will]

Apparently having Shadow do a wind up punch would be unfitting of his character, so they wouldn't let him do it.

But Ganondorf doing this is perfectly accurate?View attachment 149517

To put it simply:

 

[MysticKnives]

I know we have these four stages coming back in Ultimate:
https://www.ssbwiki.com/Super_Smash_Bros._Melee

Spoiler: Mother Stages

• Onett
• Fourside
• New Pork City
• Magicant

But like...can we get one or two more? I'm starving.

Give us Empire Porky Building, Fire Spring, Thunder Tower, Chimera's Laboratory, Osohe Castle or The Cave of the Past to name a few...

I’d love any of those. ITs truly a blessing Mother gets so much for how small a series it is. I was not expecting to see the ramblin’ evil mushroom in Smash

 

[KMDP]

Stardust Speedway would be a cooler stage tbh

Metal sonic can even pop out as a hazard

I was making a joke about Sonic Team's insistence on shoehorning Green Hill and Chemical Plant into everything. But I like the Stardust Speedway Idea!

 

[TheDukeofDorks]

Sure, but that's also not how Sakurai rolls.

Sakurai's said himself that 3rd party characters are basically honored guests.

Making one a 'glorified alt costume' isn't something that he'd do.

Tails is a background element and Rayman is a trophy. A "glorified alt costume" (An arguable upgrade from Shadow's previous status, mind you) does not seem out of the realm of possibility in the slightest.

 

[MBRedboy31]

Sure, but that's also not how Sakurai rolls.

Sakurai's said himself that 3rd party characters are basically honored guests.

Making one a 'glorified alt costume' isn't something that he'd do.

Of course, how he rolled during the development of the last couple Smash games isn’t necessarily how he’s rolling for this one (we didn’t have all veterans returning, after all, as an example in how the selection process most likely changed.) Alternatively, we don’t know if Sega could’ve asked him about it first rather than the other way around.

Besides, he’s a much better salesman than that, why would he pitch it to them like that? He already created the “echo fighter” terminology to sell it to us, which seems to have generally worked.

 

[Will]

There's too many good Sonic stages to pick just one and call it a day. So how about that stage in Sonic '06 with the orca?

 

[KMDP]

I’d love any of those. ITs truly a blessing Mother gets so much for how small a series it is. I was not expecting to see the ramblin’ evil mushroom in Smash

A Fourside "Echo Stage", Moonside, where you have higher knockback the LOWER your percentage is.