Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Jedisupersonic]

They seem to be stuck on racing, considering all we've got from them has been All-stars racing, transformed, and now Team Sonic racing.

I'm excited for Team Sonic Racing, we finally got Crush 40 back to do a main theme!

 

[Sharkarat]

I mean, looking at the newcomers we got in Smash 4, barring Duck Hunt, kinda sorta yeah. Everyone appeared in a game in the past 5 years.
Relevance beats fan demand a lot of the time.

And it's actually mostly within two years, with the 4-5 since game last is mostly new (to smash) series like punch-out and xenoblade

I know there's been attempts, but I mean one that really captures the feel of SSB in terms of both gameplay and all-star power. I never played the TMNT one, so I can't speak on it's gameplay, but the fact that it isn't a crossover makes it fail as an SSB clone imo. Just as PSAS fails as an SSB clone due to it's gameplay shortcomings even though it has an all-star cast.

Capturing the same all-star feel is pretty much impossible unless your disney or something ('cause nintendo is that big). Sega, Capcom, Namco-Bandai and Konami are okay, but Nintendo can't be compared. (the links are some old rosters I Made)
Gameplay on the other hand seems to come from most of the Devs of these Smash-likes just not having good enough grasp on how fighting games works.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

That too, but I meant in recent years, all they've done for Sonic is racing games.

Well, guess those chances are nixed then. So yeah, it really does seem like the Big N are the only ones with a consistent foothold on the Smash game structure template.

 

[KMDP]

If Jump Force isn't powerful enough to melt the Switch, it could be the closest we'll ever get.

JSS is actually a major contributing factor in getting me into JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, as well as that old net-famous flash animation, you know the one. (Yes, I liked it before it was cool!)

That and Kinnikuman ('Ultimate Muscle' was it's sequel), which is the Grandfather of modern Battle Shonen (along with Fist of the North Star).

 

[Will]

But how well-known are Donkey Kong antagonists to begin with?

Well you got Mario from DK Jr., K. Rool from the Rare games, that Mask dude from Returns, and the Walrus guy in Tropical Freeze. Is that all of them?

 

[Untouch]

Well you got Mario from DK Jr., K. Rool from the Rare games, that Mask dude from Returns, and the Walrus guy in Tropical Freeze. Is that all of them?

The kongs from jungle beat.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

JSS is actually a major contributing factor in getting me into JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, as well as that old net-famous flash animation, you know the one. (Yes, I liked it before it was cool!)

That and Kinnikuman, which is the Grandfather of modern Battle Shonen (along with Fist of the North Star).

I hope we get Young Joseph in Jump Force, then again that's just my bias of Part 2 speaking.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Most companies don't really have the same number of notable IPs and characters as Nintendo does, especially if you want to make it strictly first-party. Rivals of Aether has really good gameplay but doesn't really have the "all-star power". Capcom could make a pretty good one though (with IPs like Ace Attorney, Bionic Commando, Breath of Fire, Dead Rising, Devil May Cry, Final Fight, Ghosts 'n Goblins, Ghost Trick, Mega Man, Monster Hunter, Resident Evil, Street Fighter, and Viewtiful Joe). They've already done some games like that, however: The Marvel vs. Capcom games, so it seems unlikely that they'd create a Smash clone (especially since Mega Man and Ryu are in Smash already).

Also, I think it'd be hard to compete with Smash. Even Rivals of Aether, which is a really good game, doesn't exactly have a huge playerbase.

That’s because Smash is the MCU of fighting games

 

[Will]

The kongs from jungle beat.

Ah yes, how could I forget Donkey Kong: Civil War 1 and 2?

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Well you got Mario from DK Jr., K. Rool from the Rare games, that Mask dude from Returns, and the Walrus guy in Tropical Freeze. Is that all of them?

If you want to be extremely technical, there is also KAOS, the assumed initial villain of DKC3, but he is literally nothing but a puppet anyway.

 

[Will]

JSS is actually a major contributing factor in getting me into JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, as well as that old net-famous flash animation, you know the one. (Yes, I liked it before it was cool!)

Someone told me to read Steel Ball Run like 4-5 years ago and I was like "okay".

 

[Lady Byakugan]

Most companies don't really have the same number of notable IPs and characters as Nintendo does, especially if you want to make it strictly first-party. Rivals of Aether has really good gameplay but doesn't really have the "all-star power". Capcom could make a pretty good one though (with IPs like Ace Attorney, Bionic Commando, Breath of Fire, Dead Rising, Devil May Cry, Final Fight, Ghosts 'n Goblins, Ghost Trick, Mega Man, Monster Hunter, Resident Evil, Street Fighter, and Viewtiful Joe). They've already done some games like that, however: The Marvel vs. Capcom games, so it seems unlikely that they'd create a Smash clone (especially since Mega Man and Ryu are in Smash already).

Also, I think it'd be hard to compete with Smash. Even Rivals of Aether, which is a really good game, doesn't exactly have a huge playerbase.

While it is true that they may not be able to compete with smash, you should also consider that they can release on multiple platforms. Also, smash is released once per console generation, leaving ample time for developers to release a potential crossover fighter years away from smash. And then there's the fact that many smash players, such as myself, would jump at the chance to play a well-done smash clone.

As for companies needing enough IPs, I think they can work it out, even if it's not as many as Nintendo's. As you said, there's Capcom, and I think Sega and Konami could also make it work. If we're to include non-video game companies, like in the case of the CN fighting game, a Disney or Dreamworks Smash clone would also work easily given their vast amount of characters.

Rivals of Aether, from what google shows me, seems to be an indie game with original characters. I don't think it's fair to compare that to smash since, like I said before, smash's charm comes from both it's gameplay and all star power. When you lack one or the other, it falls apart imo

 

[MattOnwheels]

On K.rool, I think everyone greatly overestimates him from personal experience. I've been playing Nintendo since I was a baby, basically (there's a picture of baby me holding a NES controller somewhere), but I have clear memories starting from the SNES era, and I exclusively played Nintendo for my whole life. Granted, I didn't play every game, but I played as many games I could get my hands on. I remember renting a ton of games on Blockbuster, including Donkey Kong games that I never finished. All of my friends in grade, middle and high school played Nintendo games, or at least Pokemon. I tried to get my hands on as many Nintendo Powers I could, since I only had internet access like 12 years ago.

But the only memory I have of K.rool is the Crystal Coconut movie. So when I started to lurk around Smash speculation, I was baffled to see K.rool having so much support in the Smash circles. I have never met someone irl who remotely cared or knew about K.rool. In my opinion, he is by far the most overblown character in the Smash speculation echo-chamber. To the point that I wondered if I missed something, but not really.

I don't have any opinion on him myself, I just don't care, but people here seem to go through as many mental hoops as possible to justify his "inevitable" presence in Smash. Obviously he can get in, but it has to be ballot or something like that, and even then, I would not bet on him being as high in the ballot as lurking these boards make it seem.

Im going to put this as nicely as I can:

Your experience is the exception, if you were born in that time period.

Most who played a SNES played DKC as a series, with 1 and 2 becoming some of the best damn platforms in history in the eyes of my generation. (3 a bit less so, but still up there)

From there, anyone who knew DK went on to see the cartoon, and if not the cartoon, DK64. One of the hypest games at the time. It was EVERYWHERE. You weren't cool if you didn't play it (though some game design has not aged well.)

Put bluntly, K. Rool should have been in since Melee just from a pure hero-to villain perspective. Mario had Bowser. Link had Ganondorft. Pokemon had Mewtwo. It just made sense. DK64 was still fresh back then anyway. All other omissions aside, it was an obvious inclusion that slipped through the Kraks.

If I and supporters like me have to become the new "Insane" group, so be it. Call us a minority if you want but we are the most popular Newcomer speculation thread by far with over 68 pages and growing. I'd say that should be enough to validate his popularity, but then I look at what Ridley fans went through. Believe what you will. It won't change our minds.

 

[Pacack]

He was talking about how overblown K. Rool was in the Smash fanbase. I was pointing out that Ridley had that same following. There were also "reasons" he would never get in as well and yet here he is.

This isn't a valid comparison because Ridley's counterpoints are not the same counterpoints that K. Rool has. Ridley getting in proved that Sakurai is willing to reconsider previously dismissed characters and is willing to resize characters if need be.

I feel like I should say again that it might be time to step back and look at this Smash as an entirely different beast from the franchise. Snake would never come back before this game. There was no way they would bring Young Link in with Toon Link. There was no way Pichu would ever see the light of day again. Ridley would never ever get in. There's no way Sakurai would ever try to appeal to eSports. Yet that all changed with one trailer. Point is, just because a character has this reason or that reason against him doesnt mean he won't get in.

The inclusion of a character previously considered unlikely does not affect the inclusion of a separate character.

That's like saying "Ridley got in, so Goku is now possible."

The cases aren't the same. Yes, K. Rool has a chance. I'm not saying otherwise. But Ridley's inclusion does is not enough to consider him a shoe-in by any means.

As a matter of fact I think Waluigi still has a chance to make it in DLC. We cant just dismiss characters anymore. We did that. And it blew up in our face.

No one is dismissing K. Rool as a possibility, but he's hardly the all-star that people are claiming him to be.

 

[Lady Byakugan]

Capturing the same all-star feel is pretty much impossible unless your disney or something ('cause nintendo is that big). Sega, Capcom, Namco-Bandai and Konami are okay, but Nintendo can't be compared.
Gameplay on the other hand seems to come from most of the Devs of these Smash-likes just not having good enough grasp on how fighting games works.

Agree, Disney would be the only company who could pull it off with the same amount of all-star power as Nintendo, but even then, I'm fine with the likes of Sega, Bandai, or Capcom theoretical smash clone having less all-star feel as long as it gives me a crossover smash clone game, since I think the multi platform release would help balance it out a bit.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Im going to put this as nicely as I can:

Your experience is the exception, if you were born in that time period.

Most who played a SNES played DKC as a series, with 1 and 2 becoming some of the best damn platforms in history in the eyes of my generation. (3 a bit less so, but still up there)

From there, anyone who knew DK went on to see the cartoon, and if not the cartoon, DK64. One of the hypest games at the time. It was EVERYWHERE. You weren't cool if you didn't play it (though some game design has not aged well.)

Put bluntly, K. Rool should have been in since Melee just from a pure hero-to villain perspective. Mario had Bowser. Link had Ganondorft. Pokemon had Mewtwo. It just made sense. DK64 was still fresh back then anyway. All other omissions aside, it was an obvious inclusion that slipped through the Kraks.

If I and supporters like me have to become the new "Insane" group, so be it. Call us a minority if you want but we are the most popular Newcomer speculation thread by far with over 68 pages and growing. I'd say that should be enough to validate his popularity, but then I look at what Ridley fans went through. Believe what you will. It won't change our minds.

Your dedication gets my upmost respect, I do hope for all of you K.Rool fans. So you can feel that same rush I did when I saw Sonic clashing with Mario and posing beside him back in that old Brawl trailer.

I do like DKC and respect its legacy, I didn't get into it as say a good chunk of you lot but I can definitely respect the desire for K.Rool and again I do hope you can see him realized in Smash.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Found another 4chan "leak." This one doesn't seem like much of a leak though.

Spoiler: Leak contents

Thread:http://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/421409118
Newcomers: Ridley, Inkling, Simon Belmont, K. Rool, Skull Kid, Chorus Men, Excitebiker
Semi-Clones: Hades
Clones: Isabelle, Louie
Echoes: Shadow, Hilda, Ninten, Funky Kong, Daisy, Dark Meta Knight

 

[Will]

Are people really still on the belief that Waluigi has a shot still as DLC? Look, I like the man too, but I gave up long ago (a week is long when you're waiting for a game to come out). Take what you can get and go home, hope for a Mii costume at best.

 

[KMDP]

Someone told me to read Steel Ball Run like 4-5 years ago and I was like "okay".

I can't imagine what a wild ride it must have been to have Steel Ball Run as your first JoJo's series. XD

Phantom Blood is just "Fist of the North Star with Vampires in Victorian Britain!" so it's actually fairly standard and a (relatively) gentle lead into the rest of the insanity.

 

[Shroob]

Found another 4chan "leak." This one doesn't seem like much of a leak though.

Spoiler: Leak contents

Thread:http://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/421409118
Newcomers: Ridley, Inkling, Simon Belmont, K. Rool, Skull Kid, Chorus Men, Excitebiker
Semi-Clones: Hades
Clones: Isabelle, Louie
Echoes: Shadow, Hilda, Ninten, Funky Kong, Daisy, Dark Meta Knight

Alph's already been shown as a skin, instantly debunked,

 

[Untouch]

Found another 4chan "leak." This one doesn't seem like much of a leak though.

Spoiler: Leak contents

Thread:http://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/421409118
Newcomers: Ridley, Inkling, Simon Belmont, K. Rool, Skull Kid, Chorus Men, Excitebiker
Semi-Clones: Hades
Clones: Isabelle, Louie
Echoes: Shadow, Hilda, Ninten, Funky Kong, Daisy, Dark Meta Knight

Alph has already been confirmed as a costume for Olimar.

 

[Will]

Found another 4chan "leak."

Seen it, text leaks are so abysmal. Not a single interesting leak in sight.

 

[Honest Slug]

I miss Smash 4 leaks...

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Alph has already been confirmed as a costume for Olimar.

Alph's already been shown as a skin, instantly debunked,

It was Louie instead of Alph. Typed that wrong, my bad.

It's still fake though.

Seen it, text leaks are so abysmal. Not a single interesting leak in sight.

Still worth bringing here so it can be discussed ridiculed. I find it better than some of the debates we have.

I miss Smash 4 leaks...

Me too. Me too.

 

[Shroob]

I miss Smash 4 leaks...

I'll never forget the Valentine's Rayman leak, with a few days later where half the community was praising ArtsyOmni, while the other half wanted his head.

 

[Zinith]

I miss the "Shulk is Little Mac" debate...

I'm a Shulk secondary and I still believe it...

 

[CannonStreak]

My little take: He may not have appeared in any games recently, but King K. Rool is still more of an all-star and thus, suitable for a game like Smash Bros Ultimate. He is more suitable and much of an all star than any other villain in Donkey Kong games, from the Kongs from Jungle Beat to the villains in Returns and Tropical Freeze and so on. He is still relavant as a villain, just not perhaps in the recency kind of way. Plus, to me, he has more all-star power than the likes of Captain Syrup from Wario Land, Shovel Knight, maybe Shantae, perhaps Issac from Golden Su, Bandana Dee from Kirby, maybe, and others like newer guys like Spring Man from ARMS and Rex & Pyra from Xeboblade 2. (no offense to fans of those guys, of course). So I don't think his chances are too hurt in terms of getting in. Plus, if Ridley can get in because of fan demand, why not King K. Rool? I know Ridley was more recent than K. Rool, but they're both heavily wanted characters to begin with, and Ridley's relevancy and recency at the time of games like Smash Bros Brawl or Smash Bros Wii U and 3DS did not get him in as a playable character, but as a boss. That said, King K. Rool did not get in the last game as a playable character, but he did get in as a Mii costume. So Sakurai does know K. Rool has fans. Plus, for a guy made by westerners, he still is very popular in even Japan. I am not saying K. Rool has an absoluitely sure chance of getting in, but he has still established himself as an all-star, so regardless of recency, he still has good reason to be a playable character in Smash Bros Ultimate.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

I miss Smash 4 leaks...

I too fondly remember the days of "Photoshopped Little Mac"

 

[Makai Wars]

Are people really still on the belief that Waluigi has a shot still as DLC? Look, I like the man too, but I gave up long ago (a week is long when you're waiting for a game to come out). Take what you can get and go home, hope for a Mii costume at best.

This lol, I don't think being a meme is enough to warrant Waluigi getting in. Ridley has decades of history coupled with huge fan demand to give him an edge, literally the most requested character of all time and has a treasure trove of different attacks to work with. Daisy got in because she was a very low effort addition being a clone---"Echo Fighter" of Peach. Waluigi has....memes and a tennis racket. And was already hard deconfirmed as an assist trophy, comparing 2Bigley and WAAAH is an effort in futility.

 

[Hinata]

I too fondly remember the days of "Photoshopped Little Mac"

People always mention photoshopped Little Mac, but I also fondly remember people crying foul because it looked like Game and Watch's hand clipped into Wario's CSS box because of his mustache.

 

[StrangeMann]

I get the feeling we'll know the final roster by early November, as most previous smash games have the roster leak online a month or so in advance of release. Still will be an interesting wait for the next nintendo direct for more information on the game, probably around August/September.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

This lol, I don't think being a meme is enough to warrant Waluigi getting in. Ridley has decades of history coupled with huge fan demand to give him an edge, literally the most requested character of all time and has a treasure trove of different attacks to work with. Daisy got in because she was a very low effort addition being a clone---"Echo Fighter" of Peach. Waluigi has....memes and a tennis racket. And was already hard deconfirmed as an assist trophy, comparing 2Bigley and WAAAH is an effort in futility.

Honestly I think part of why they're so upset is because of the Daisy deal, they tend to both only show up in the Spinoffs, etc etc.

 

[Zinith]

Wasn't Yoshi's placement on the CSS also a talking point for the leak being "fake?"

 

[Untouch]

I remember people being pretty upset when K-Rool wasnt the boss of DKCR and DKCTF so even though just because he hasn't been in a game in a while doesn't mean he's totally irrelevant.
The real question is, he's clearly relevant in the smash bros hardcore scene, but is he relevant in the casual scene? We never got the actual results of the ballot so we don't know.

 

[KMDP]

Agree, Disney would be the only company who could pull it off with the same amount of all-star power as Nintendo, but even then, I'm fine with the likes of Sega, Bandai, or Capcom theoretical smash clone having less all-star feel as long as it gives me a crossover smash clone game, since I think the multi platform release would help balance it out a bit.

I'd argue that Disney would never make a fighting game using their IPs.

It's why Dissidia went from being a Kingdom Hearts Fighting Game to being a Pure Final Fantasy fighting game.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Plus, to me, K. Rool has more all-star power than the likes of Captain Syrup from Wario Land, Shovel Knight, maybe Shantae, perhaps Issac from Golden Su, Bandana Dee from Kirby, maybe, and others like newer guys like Spring Man from ARMS and Rex & Pyra from Xeboblade 2. (no offense to fans of those guys, of course).

>K. Rool, former antagonist of the Donkey Kong Country series who hasn't had a major appearance 19 years and has been abandoned by his own series.
VS
>Spring Man, mascot of Nintendo's new up-and-coming IP Arms that has seen a push from Nintendo similar to Splatoon
>Rex and Pyra, main characters of Xenoblade Chronicles 2, the best-selling game of the Xenoblade series, Nintendo's up-and-coming RPG series.
>Bandana Dee, a main character in the Kirby series for the last 7 years and stands with the likes of King Dedede and Meta Knight in terms of prominence
>Shovel Knight, the poster-boy of Nindies and prominent character in the Indie community, appearing in many games in the indie community
>Shantae, prominent Nindie character who has been around since the Gameboy Color days and also appears in many indie commuity games

I'll give you Captain Syrup and maybe Isaac, but if you think K. Rool has more all-star power than the above characters then you need to rethink the definition of all-star.

I remember people being pretty upset when K-Rool wasnt the boss of DKCR and DKCTF so even though just because he hasn't been in a game in a while doesn't mean he's totally irrelevant.
The real question is, he's clearly relevant in the smash bros hardcore scene, but is he relevant in the casual scene? We never got the actual results of the ballot so we don't know.

K. Rool was likely not at all relevant in the casual scene.

 

[Wyoming]

Wasn't Yoshi's placement on the CSS also a talking point for the leak being "fake?"

Not sure but it annoyed the hell out of me and still does.

The Mario section is so bizarrely placed it angers me

 

[Jedisupersonic]

I'd argue that Disney would never make a fighting game using their IPs.

It's why Dissidia went from being a Kingdom Hearts Fighting Game to being a Pure Final Fantasy fighting game.

Yep I was going to bring this up myself, also we have Dissidia to thank for Clouds running animation in Smash (then again it was partly based on his dash to slash in FF7's animations).

 

[Will]

I can't imagine what a wild ride it must have been to have Steel Ball Run as your first JoJo's series. XD

Phantom Blood is just "Fist of the North Star with Vampires in Victorian Britain!" so it's actually fairly standard and a (relatively) gentle lead into the rest of the insanity.

I've been caught up for years now, I'm well versed in the series and read the latest chapter when it came out a few days ago.

Spoiler: Part 8 stuff

Seriously what the hell happened to Speed King?
2013:


Literally four days ago, 2018:

 

[Zinith]

Not sure but it annoyed the hell out of me and still does.

The Mario section is so bizarrely placed it angers me

The whole Mario section? Other than Yoshi and Dr. Mario, what else bothered you about that section?